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BCowan

Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #75 on: December 28, 2014, 03:21:29 PM »
Sven,

   thanks, I made the updates.  It seems he had a great run in PA. 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 03:23:05 PM by BCowan »

Yannick Pilon

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #76 on: December 28, 2014, 09:22:44 PM »
Ben,

Looking at your liost, I have two observations:
1. Le Club Laval-sur-le-Lac (Green course) is in Laval, Quebec, and not in France. (http://www.clsll.ca/) Our friend Ian Andrew is taking good care of it.
2. Club de Golf Royal Quebec (Royal course) is listed twice on your list. I wish the Club would be more interested in preserving Park Jr's legacy on the course, even if his input in the original design is not fully clear because of his poor health at the time it was built. The Club's history book and their website both claim Park Jr. was hired to do the design, but they also mention there is a doubt if he made the plans or not.  It seems the club was built by "M. Roddick"....
3. Summerlea Golf & Country Club was also designed by Park Jr.  Well, their original course at least, which used to be situated in Lachine, Qc, but now NLE.  They had a 27-hole course (A 9-hole, par 36 course for juniors and ladies, and an 18-hole, par 70 course).

Cheers.

YP
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 10:55:57 PM by Yannick Pilon »
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Niall C

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2014, 07:57:58 AM »
Ben,

You might want to add Western Gailes to your list as Park consulted there at the same time he was jointly redesigning Glasgow Gailes.

Niall

John Sabino

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #78 on: December 29, 2014, 02:21:31 PM »
BC - Is the St. Albans you refer to the one in Queens? I thought it was originally designed by John Duncan Dunn and subsequently redesigned by Tillinghast? John
Author: How to Play the World's Most Exclusive Golf Clubs and Golf's Iron Horse - The Astonishing, Record-Breaking Life of Ralph Kennedy

http://www.top100golf.blogspot.com/

BCowan

Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #79 on: December 29, 2014, 02:41:00 PM »
Niall and Yannik,

    Thanks for the info, updated. 

John,

   I will look into it.  thanks for posting

John Sabino

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #80 on: December 29, 2014, 06:55:19 PM »
I looked it up in Wexler's Missing Links and it attributes the course to Willie Park, Jr. and then says it was modified by Tillinghast in 1923. Quirin's Golf Clubs of the MGA says the same thing. My source was the Brooklyn Daily Eagle on July 25, 1915 which says "the links have been laid out under the supervision of John Duncan Dunn the well-known professional golfer"
Author: How to Play the World's Most Exclusive Golf Clubs and Golf's Iron Horse - The Astonishing, Record-Breaking Life of Ralph Kennedy

http://www.top100golf.blogspot.com/

Ian Murray

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2014, 11:37:47 AM »
Re: Whitlock Golf course and Laval Sur La Lac

Would be interested what the evidence is for Whitlock and Willie Park's involvement?. The course is attributed to Albert and Charles Murray and James Black for the initial 9 and Charles Murray (perhaps Albert as well?) for the back nine in 1912 and 1913 respectively. Can find no evidence of Willie Park.

Laval Sur la Lac: It is well documented that Albert Murray laid out the initial 9 holes in 1917 (although the club does not acknowledge this) and Willie Park in 1923 remodelled the initial 9 (?) and laid out the back nine.

Lester George

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2014, 12:08:55 PM »
After chasing bad leads and theories for 7 or 8 years (it seems), Joe Bausch discovered the Princess Anne CC in Virginia Beach was done by Willie Park. 

I should have called him sooner.

Lester

Mark Steffey

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2014, 09:27:41 PM »
I have been very fortunate to play Indiana CC (PA) a lot and for some reason I want to say this is Park on 9 holes and the course was finished off later mid-20th century.
Whether hearsay or whatnot, I don't have anything concrete to share as proof.

BCowan

Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2014, 09:58:42 PM »
John,

Tillinghast also had a part in the redesign of St. Albans Country Club, just north of where JFK Airport is now, which hosted the 1930 Met Amateur, won by Maurice McCarthy, Jr. It was consumed by suburban expansion in the 1950s.
http://nypost.com/2010/08/22/the-late-great-golf-courses-of-queens/

I wonder if Phil Young could comment?


Lester/Ian,

  Thank you.

Mark,

    I will make a note of that with a ?.  Thanks
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 10:22:43 PM by BCowan »

Joe Bausch

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #85 on: January 05, 2015, 01:42:31 PM »
Here is another interesting one:  Happy Valley Country Club in Asheville, NC.  Looks like it did open 9-holes, as I have a 1919 article saying so.

Here is a wonderful article from 1916 (Nov 19, 1916 Asheville Citizen Sun) where Park is interviewed about the coming course:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #86 on: January 05, 2015, 03:04:22 PM »
Joe:

Nice find on Park and the Kenilworth Inn course.

The Inn was built in 1917 to replace an earlier version that had burned down, but before it could open it was taken over by the Army as a hospital.  Today it remains as an apartment building in the Kenilworth section of Asheville, which at one point was a separate town.  I'd venture the course was never built, as no record of a "Happy Valley" or "Kenilworth Inn" course exists.

My guess is that this is the source of the confusion for the attribution of Park to Asheville CC/Grove Park Inn.  He listed a course in Asheville in later ads.  It is possible he did some work at Asheville CC while in town, and it is also possible his work only pertained to this project.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Joe Bausch

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) New
« Reply #87 on: January 05, 2015, 03:23:51 PM »
Joe:

Nice find on Park and the Kenilworth Inn course.

The Inn was built in 1917 to replace an earlier version that had burned down, but before it could open it was taken over by the Army as a hospital.  Today it remains as an apartment building in the Kenilworth section of Asheville, which at one point was a separate town.  I'd venture the course was never built, as no record of a "Happy Valley" or "Kenilworth Inn" course exists.

My guess is that this is the source of the confusion for the attribution of Park to Asheville CC/Grove Park Inn.  He listed a course in Asheville in later ads.  It is possible he did some work at Asheville CC while in town, and it is also possible his work only pertained to this project.

Sven

As I hinted at in my previous post, Sven, I'm pretty sure this Happy Valley CC opened at least with 9 holes as this article mentions (from the May 18, 1919 edition of the Charlotte Observer):

« Last Edit: August 03, 2024, 02:08:27 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #88 on: January 05, 2015, 03:24:17 PM »
The other part of the article that bears mentioning is the list of locations where he had courses in the works:

Baltimore - Rolling Road (although his work is given a date of 1920)
Detroit (5 courses) - Meadowbrook, Pine Lake?, Cascade Hills?, Flint?, Red Run?
Minneapolis - Minneapolis GC
New Britain - this would be Shuttle Meadow
Meridian - a 9 hole course in Meridian, LA was organized in 1917
Plottsville (Pottsville?) - Schuykill CC (work is given a date of 1921)
Reidsville - assuming this is the town in NC, which didn't get a course until 1931
Boston - possible Milton-Hoosic?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 03:41:07 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCowan

Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #89 on: January 05, 2015, 03:30:49 PM »
Detroit (5 courses) - Meadowbrook, Pine Lake?, Cascade Hills?, Flint?, Red Run?

Meadowbrook- he did 6 holes or just 6 greens.  Pine Lake-not much left my friends say.  Flint- pretty much intact, have played once. Red Run is, a one or two new holes. 

Cascade hills never heard anything about. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2015, 03:35:56 PM »


As I hinted at in my previous post, Sven, I'm pretty sure this Happy Valley CC opened at least with 9 holes as this article mentions (from the May 18, 1919 edition of the Charlotte Observer):


I stand corrected.  

I should have noted that there was a course built in the late 1890's that was associated with the first iteration of the Kenilworth Inn.  It would seem that when they rebuilt the hotel, they also brought in Park to upgrade the golf facilities.  

The Inn did eventually open up around 1923, but was sold in 1930 and was turned into a psych hospital.  

I have quite a few articles discussing golf in Asheville over the years, and none of them mention Happy Valley/Kenilworth.  In addition, it wasn't mentioned at all in the Annual Guides and I have not seen any other references to it in other publications.  Perhaps it stayed under the radar, or it could be that it was only open a short period of time.  The timing of events makes you wonder who was operating the course from 1919 on.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2015, 03:40:26 PM »

Cascade hills never heard anything about. 

You commented on my thread about it.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60174.0.html
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCowan

Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #92 on: January 05, 2015, 03:43:25 PM »
The course that is or was Grand Rapids CC.  Not to be a nit pick. GR is 2+ hours from Metro D.  Thanks know i remember.   

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #93 on: January 05, 2015, 03:47:00 PM »
Not to be a nit pick. GR is 2+ hours from Metro D. 

Park's quote was "at or around Detroit."  In any case, seems like he was busier in that area than we know about.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #94 on: January 05, 2015, 04:13:19 PM »
Great article, Joe. The timing is really interesting in regards to Minneapolis Golf Club. Though Park never listed MGC among his designs, he says in this Nov. 19, 1916, article he has already worked on a course in Minneapolis. I have a clip from the Nov. 26, 1916, Minneapolis Morning Tribune saying:

"Willie Park, well-known golf course architect, arrived here yesterday to lay out the course of the Minneapolis golf club.

"Mr. Park went over the club’s property near St. Louis Park in the afternoon and today he will start the work of mapping the full 18-hole links. He plans to stay here at least two weeks and will supervise the early work of construction.

"It is planned to rush the construction work so that the course will be ready for play by the middle of next summer. Until the new course is ready the temporary nine-hole course at Golden Valley will be used."

Park did not return to the Twin Cities the following spring, and it fell to new head pro William Clark to finish Park's plan. What interests me here is that this is the first source I've seen in which Park personally acknowledges working on MGC (for those who still doubted MGC began as a Willie Park course.) In addition, no information had previously surfaced that Park might have visited Minneapolis prior to Nov. 25 to start planning the new course.
 
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #95 on: January 05, 2015, 04:30:22 PM »


As I hinted at in my previous post, Sven, I'm pretty sure this Happy Valley CC opened at least with 9 holes as this article mentions (from the May 18, 1919 edition of the Charlotte Observer):


I stand corrected.  

I should have noted that there was a course built in the late 1890's that was associated with the first iteration of the Kenilworth Inn.  It would seem that when they rebuilt the hotel, they also brought in Park to upgrade the golf facilities.  

The Inn did eventually open up around 1923, but was sold in 1930 and was turned into a psych hospital.  

I have quite a few articles discussing golf in Asheville over the years, and none of them mention Happy Valley/Kenilworth.  In addition, it wasn't mentioned at all in the Annual Guides and I have not seen any other references to it in other publications.  Perhaps it stayed under the radar, or it could be that it was only open a short period of time.  The timing of events makes you wonder who was operating the course from 1919 on.

Sven

I've seen a stick routing of the 9 hole course from the old Kenilworth Inn, as I recall it wasn't anything more than a pitch and putt. Also the military took over the hotel before it opened in 1918. My guess is the plans to expand the course were put on hold until after the military lease ran out in 1922. The Inn was only in operation for 7 years until they defaulted and it was re-purposed as a hospital.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #96 on: January 05, 2015, 04:34:58 PM »
Ben:

Here's the old Kenilworth Inn routing plan, which for that age was longer than a pitch and putt (from the Feb. 1899 edition of Golf Magazine):

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #97 on: January 05, 2015, 04:57:23 PM »
Thanks for posting the routing Sven. Interesting choice to replay the 4th, 5th, and 6th, to complete the 9.

I wonder if the 3rd green is visible in the foreground of this image?

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #98 on: January 05, 2015, 05:23:11 PM »
And the 6th/9th green just visible to the left of the hotel.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCowan

Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2015, 11:42:07 PM »
A nice bit from a previous thread.  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,17013.0.html



''The following excerpt is from Willie Park Jr's book - The Game of Golf.  This provides a little insight into his philosophy.


Page 200                         

very sparingly laid down, because they are likely to prove what has not inaptly been termed 'levellers'— that is to say, the ball can be driven on to the green in two strokes by anybody, and it may be that. at such holes, if not guarded, there is little advantage in getting away a good drive, because, even if the drive is foozled, any ordinary player can put his ball on the putting-green with his second stroke. The result is, that one man who has driven a good shot may have a short approach to play, while another who has got a bad drive, or who has foozled his stroke, will only have a longer approach to play, and his mistake will thus cost him very little. Of course in this case there is an advantage in having to play the shorter approach; but, generally speaking, a mistake ought to pay a greater penalty than merely increased length of approach. If there be judiciously placed hazards, such an objection cannot hold good, as a foozled drive is practically certain to be punished. It is not possible to lay down ideal distances, because so much depends upon the nature of the ground. For instance, on a flat or on a seaside links, where the ground is hard and the turf short, a ball can be driven much further than on a hilly or heavy course, because it has a considerable run after alighting, and it is possible to get away a long second stroke owing to the ball lying clear; while on a heavy inland course, where the grass is long, the drive is all carry without any run, and owing to the interference of the grass it is not possible to get


Page 201

away along second stroke; and on a hilly course, the nature of the ground may considerably diminish the distance of the drive; consequently, on courses of the nature first mentioned the holes may be made longer than on courses such as those last indicated. It is to be kept in view, too, that the links are to be laid out for the use of a certain class of golfers, if all are beginners it is a mistake to make the course too difficult at first, as it will diminish their pleasure and possibly disgust them with the green; but as they get more expert the links can be made more difficult by lengthening the holes and similar devices. On new greens which are of a rough nature, the holes should be made shorter to begin with, until the ground is walked down, and they can afterwards be lengthened by putting the tees further back; for, of course, the putting-greens cannot be removed save at great expense.
The tees should be placed on level parts of the course, with, if anything, a slight slope upwards in the direction to be played. If there be a hillock or rising ground or any obstruction requiring to be driven over in front, the teeing-ground should be kept far enough back to enable the ball to rise over it in the course of its flight. Provision, should be made for changing the teeing-grounds frequently, to prevent the turf on them being worn out, and to permit ground previously used to recover.
The selection of putting greens is a much more





Page 202           

difficult matter. The variety of places on which they can be formed is infinite. They may be on the level course, or in a natural hollow or basin, provided it be sufficiently large and shallow, or they may be placed on the tops of large ‘tables.’  All of these are good positions, and the more variety that can be introduced the better. The putting-greens should be as large as possible; and while the ground should be comparatively level, it is not desirable that it should be perfectly flat like a billiard-table, but should rather be of a slightly undulating character.  It is absolutely essential that a putting-green be firm and smooth, and the turf close and short, so that the ball will roll on it and not ‘bobble' or Jump, as it certainly will if the turf be brushy and uneven. If natural putting-greens cannot be made on the course as it stands, then they must be dug up and laid with suitable turf; but this should only be done as a last resource. It is a very bad piece of ground that will not improve sufficiently to make a fairly good putting-green, under proper care, and with due cutting and rolling and top-dressing.  A strong attempt should always be made to bring the natural turf into condition before resorting to the lifting and turfing of a putting-green. Many will be surprised to find the improvement that can be effected on any ordinary turf with proper treatment and care. If large enough putting-greens cannot be made at any particular parts of the course, it may be necessary to have relief


Page 203

putting-greens on to which the hole can be changed when the regular greens show signs of tear and wear. The putting-greens and teeing-grounds should, as previously pointed out, be in proximity to one another.
With regard to hazards, I would begin by stating that there should not be any hazard out of which the ball cannot be extricated at the loss of one stroke, and that all hazards should be visible to the golfer when he stands at his ball before playing his stroke. A bunker that is not visible to the player is always more or less of a 'trap.' Sand bunkers are undoubtedly the most legitimate hazards. When there are natural bunkers, it may be possible to place the holes so that these can be made use of, but otherwise they must be formed, and in all cases they ought to be big enough and deep enough and broad enough to prevent the possibility of a ball either rolling through or jumping over. It should not be possible for a ball to lie in such a position in a bunker that a stroke at it cannot be made so as to play the ball out in one direction or another, and the corners should not therefore be sharp and angular, but rather rounded off. The hazard should be sharply defined, so that there can be no doubt as to whether or not a ball lies in it. When bunkers are made, it is very usual to form the soil taken out into a cop in front, or behind, and sometimes in the middle. When such a thing is done, the cop should not be made high but rather broad and it should not have steep



Page 204
                         
sides.   Among various kinds of hazards are to be found walls, trees, water, fences and hedges, whins, etc.  Trees are never a fair hazard if at all near the line of play, as a well-hit shot may be completely spoi1ed by catching in the branches. An occasional wall or fence or stream of water or pond to be crossed cannot always be avoided, but I do not recommend the making of such hazards merely as hazards.
The placing of hazards is a matter of great difficulty, and their positions should be such that a golfer who is playing a good game should never visit them. The positions should be varied. There should, for example, be at certain holes hazards that must be carried, and should be carried, from the tee; these should be placed at such distances from the teeing-grounds that, while a well-hit shot will carry them, a topped or half-topped stroke will get in. At other holes the hazards should be placed so as to punish badly played second strokes; at others, again, the hazards should guard the putting-greens in front, and there may also be some hazards placed behind the greens.  In neither of these cases should the hazards be too near the green; in the former it should be possible to loft well over the hazard, and yet lie near the hole, and in the latter it should only be a ball much too strongly played that is punished. There is a, great cry nowadays that every hole should have a hazard in front requiring to be lofted over, but I think it is possible to carry a system of this kind too


Page 205

far. It ties players down to pitching all their approaches instead of making them exercise their judgment as to whether the ball should be lofted or run up. No golfer will deny that there should be hazards in front of some holes, but I think that at others there should be a clear road, with hazards judiciously placed on either side to punish wild shots. To loft a ball with an iron is comparatively easy to any player except an absolute novice, but it is not so easy to keep to the proper course. Erratic play should always meet with punishment, and I would counsel hazards being laid down on each side, not of the putting-greens alone, but also of the line to the hole, to catch pulled or sliced balls. I know that a bunker on the line of play, and into which a good stroke may get, is frequently considered a trap; but this is an opinion which I cannot altogether endorse,  if the bunker is visible to the player, and there is sufficient room to avoid it, it cannot properly be called a trap. Golf as a game of skill requires that a player should be able to place his ball; and if he sees the hazard, and knows there is the danger of getting in, the proper thing for him to do is to drive his ball to one side or other of the difficulty.
Although blind holes (i.e. holes at which the player does not see the flag) are objectionable, they cannot always be dispensed with; but an endeavor should be made to place the hole in such a, position that it can be seen in playing the approach. Having to play.''

* Please note, all bold and underlined words and phrases were done by Forse Design to highlight a certain portion of the excerpt and are not found in the original manuscript.

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