Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: BCowan on August 31, 2014, 11:12:18 PM

Title: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on August 31, 2014, 11:12:18 PM
http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/willie-park-jr.html (http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/willie-park-jr.html)

Willie Park, Jr.
Courses Built and ones he was involved with (in a small way)  (Mungo's List)

Austria

      Prater, Vienna       
      Private course for Count Althann (Austria)

Belgium

     
Lombardzide (Ostend, Belgium)
      Royal Antwerp Golf Club - The Championship Course in Antwerp (Belgium)

Canada

   
      Abitibi Power and Paper Co (Iroquois Falls, Ont)
      Beaconsfield GC, (Beaconsfield, QC)  [past version], Mostly redone by Thompson and then local archie
      Bowness, Calgary
      Brightwood Golf and Country Club in (Dartmouth, NS)
      Calgary Golf and Country Club in Calgary- restored by Ron Force
      Calgary, St Andrew's GC
      Club de Golf Royal Quebec - (Royal course) M. Raddick may have been involved
      Dorval Municipal course - (Dorval, QC) [9 holes, a few are his)
      Islemere G.C. (Blue & White) (Saint-Dorothee, QC)- 18 of 27 hole WPJ
      Kentville (Nova Scotia)
      Le Club Laval-Sur-Le-Lac - (Green Course) in (Laval, Quebec)-restored by Ian Andrew
      Mount Bruno Country Club,  (St-Bruno, QC)
      Ottawa Hunt and Golf Club - Gold - South/West in Ottawa- No park left.  McBroom then Hurzdan redesigns.
      Parkstone Golf Club in Dorset
      Royal Montreal, (Dorval, QC (NLE)) [past versions]
      Royal Quebec GC [Royal course] (Quebec)
      Senneville- Que
      Southwood Golf & Country Club ( Manitoba)
      St Agathe de Monts- Laurentian
      Summerlea Golf & CC. (Lachine, QC) 27 holes (NLE)
      St Andrews (AB)- Rumor is Ross did the course
      Toronto Hunt- 9 holes left, greens redone by McBroom
      Weston Golf and Country Club in (Weston, Ontario)- bunkers by Alison, Ian Andrew restored Alison style bunkers
      Whitlock Golf & Country Club,?(Hudson-Heights, QC) (Albert and Charles Murray and James Black for the initial 9 and Charles Murray?) little Park Jr left
      Winnipeg Golf Club  (Winnipeg, Manitoba)
      Winnipeg Hunt Club
   
England

       Acton
      Aldeburgh
      Alnmouth
      Berkhamstead (?, James Baird?)
      Berwick on Tweed
      Bexhill on Sea- Sussex
      Brighton and Hove
      Broadstone GC- Dorset
      Bulwell Forest - formerly Nottingham
      Burhill (Old) GC -Surrey       
      Cambrige University (Coldham)- distinct form Gog Magog, WPJ was involved       
      Cannon's Park       
      Carholme Golf Club in (Lincolnshire, UK)
      Chiselhurst, Kent
      Coombe Hill
      East Liverpool Country Club - Private in East Liverpool      
      Edgware
      Ellesborough Golf Club in Buckinghamshire
      Frinton-on-the Sea
      Formby GC in Liverpool (James Baird redid 15-18) (7th, 8th, and 9th altered)-                          http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html)   
      Gog Magog Golf Club - Old Course in Cambridgeshire 
      Goswick
      Hampton Court Palace Golf Club in Surrey
      Hartlepool
      Haywards Heath
      Headingley
      Hendon                    
      Huntercombe Golf Club in Oxfordshire- http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/huntercombe-golf-club/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/huntercombe-golf-club/)
      Knebworth Golf Club in Hertfordshire       
      Matlock Baths (NLE)?  don't know much       
      Mid Kent Golf Club in (Kent, UK) - Formerly Gravesend
      Muswell Hill
      Neasden
      Newbiggin by Sea
      North Middlesex Golf Club in Greater London
      Northampton
      Nottingham Golf Club (Hollinwell)
      Nottingham, Bulwell Forest
      Parkstone- Southampton, hants
      Portstewart   [revisions]-  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40300.msg847056.html#msg847056 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40300.msg847056.html#msg847056)
      Richmond GC (Sudbrook Park, Surrey)
      Royal Wimbledon GC (Wilmbledon, Surrey)
      Seaford
      Sheerness
      Shooters Hill
      Silloth on Solway Golf Club in (Cumbria, UK)-  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48672.msg1097997.html#msg1097997 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48672.msg1097997.html#msg1097997)
      South Herts Golf Club - Vardon Course in Greater London
      Southampton (distinct from Parkstone in WP list)
      St Peter's (Mablethorpe GC- Mablethorpe, Lincs
      Stanmore
      Stoneham Golf Club in (Hampshire, UK)-   http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30823.msg597466.html#msg597466 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30823.msg597466.html#msg597466)                                                                                                   
      Strathpeffer Spa Golf Club in (Highland, UK)
      Sundridge Park
      Sunningdale GC (Old) (Berkshire, UK)- http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/sunningdale-golf-club-old-course/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/sunningdale-golf-club-old-course/)    [Course had serious renovation post WPJ]        
      Temple Golf Club in (Berkshire, UK)- http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.msg777890.html#msg777890 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.msg777890.html#msg777890)
      Tooting Bec
      Totteridge
      Tynemouth
      Wembley
      West Hill (Woking, Surrey)
      West Lancs (Blundellsands)
      West Middlesex
      Wimbledon Park Golf Club in Greater Londons   
      Worplesdon Golf Club in Surrey- http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47211.msg1052900.html#msg1052900 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47211.msg1052900.html#msg1052900)
   
France

      Costebelle, Hyeres
     Dieppe
      Dinard
      Evians les Bains

      La Boulle course (France)        
      Nieuport Bains, Lombardzide, Ostend
      Rouen


Ireland
       Killarney
       Larne
       Londonderry, Prehen
       Port Stewart
       Tramore       
       Waterford Golf Club in County (Waterford, Ireland)
 
Monte Carlo

       Monte Carlo Golf Club (France)

Scotland

       Baberton Golf Club in Edinburgh City       
       
Barnton
       Bathgate Golf Club in West Lothian       
        Biggar Golf Club in South Lanarkshire (Some question as to a Park Jr course)
       
Bo'ness
       
Bridge O' Wier       
       Bruntsfield Links Golfing Society Ltd in Edinburgh City       
       Burntisland Golf House Club in Fife
       
Carnoustie
       Craigkickhart Hydropathic- Morninside, Edinburgh
       Crieff
       Dalkeith and Newbattle
        Duddingston Golf Club in Edinburgh City
       
Forres
        Glasgow Gailes Golf Club in North Ayrshire
       
Glencorse
       Gorleston
       Goswick
       Grantown on Spey
       Gullane Golf Club - No. 2 in East Lothian       
       Gullane No. 3
       Innellan
        Innerleithen Golf Club in Scottish Borders
       Jedburgh
       Kilspindie
        Lauder Golf Club in Scottish Borders
       Luffness New
       Melrose
       Monifeith
        Montrose Golf Links - Medal Course in Angus-
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56097.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56097.0.html)         
       
Murrayfield       
       Peterhead Golf Club - The New Course in Aberdeenshire
       Peterhead Golf Club - The Old Course in Aberdeenshire
       
Royal Burgess Golfing Society of Edinburgh in Edinburgh City       
       Selkirk
       Shiskine
       St Boswells
        The West Lothian Golf Club in West Lothian
       Torwoodlee
       Turnhouse
        Western Gailes (Scotland)
   [Serious renovations post WPJ]-    http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61367.msg1460254.html#msg1460254 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61367.msg1460254.html#msg1460254)       

Switzerland

       
Vaud, Switzerland       

USA


Arkansas

     Hot Springs Country Club - Park Course in (Hot Springs, AR)

Connecticut

      Country Club of Farmington (Farmington, CT)
     Country Club of New Canaan - Private in (New Canaan, CT)
     Elm Trace GC (West Haven, CT)
     Madison Country Club - Private in (Madison, CT)
     New Haven Country Club - Private in (Hamden, CT)
     Shorehaven G.C. (East Norwalk, CT)- Robert White possibly laid out Park's plans due to his sickness (not confirmed)
     Shuttle Meadow Country Club - Private in (Kensington, CT)
     Tumble Brook Country Club - Red Nine in (Bloomfield, CT)
     Woodway Country Club - Private in (Darien, CT)- http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24292.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24292.0.html)

Florida

      Miami Beach GC- Bay Shore (Miami, FL) aka Alton Beach
     Miami Beach GC- Flamingo (Miami,FL)
     
Illinois

     Olympia Fields Country Club (North) - Private in (Olympia Fields, IL)

Indiana

     Highland Golf & Country Club - Private in (Indianapolis, IN)
    Indiana Country Club - Private in (Indiana, PA) 9 holes ( 6 holes remain today 5, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13) with alterations on 10, 12,13

Kentucky

     Bellefonte CC (Ashland, KY)

Maine

     Castine Golf Club - Semi-Private in (Castine, ME)

Maryland

     Baltimore CC - owned Roland Park Golf Course- NLE
    Rolling Road Golf Club - Private in (Catonsville, MD)

Massachusetts

     Country Club of New Bedford - Private in (North Dartmouth, MA)
    Milton-Hoosic Club, - Private in (Canton, MA)

Michigan

     Battle Creek Country Club - Private in (Battle Creek, MI)- http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58562.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58562.0.html)
   Cascade Hills cc- private (former Grand Rapids gc and Lakeview cc
 Flint Golf Club - Private in (Flint, MI)
    Meadowbrook Country Club 18 holes, (6 Greens/holes designed by WPJ is all) massive 2016 renovation by (A. Staples) - Private in (Northville, MI)
    Pine Lake Country Club - Private in (Orchard Lake, MI)- Hardly any Park Jr left, redone in 1921 by Louise Pelouze
    Red Run Golf Club - Private in (Royal Oak, MI)

Minnesota

     Minneapolis Golf Club - Private in (Minneapolis, MN)

Missouri

     St. Louis Amateur Athletic Association (St. Louis, MO) aka Triple A CC

New Hampshire

     Newport GC- Formerly John H. Cain GC (Newport, NH) 9 holes WPJ, not sure how much left

New Jersey

     Atlantic City Country Club - Private in (Northfield, NJ)
    Canoe Brook (North) Private (Possible routing done by Park after additional land purchase)
    Glen Ridge CC (Glen Ridge, NJ)
    Greate Bay Golf Club - Semi-Private in (Somers Point, NJ)(Formerly Ocean City)
    http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/GreateBay/ (http://xchem.villanova.edu/%7Ebausch/images/albums/GreateBay/)
    North Jersey CC aka Paterson GC (Paterson, NJ)

New York

     
     John Jacob Astor's private course in (Rhinebeck, NY)     
    Grant Hugh Brown (private)  (Goshen, Middletown, NY)     
    Knollwood CC (White Plains, NY)
    Maidstone - Private (East Hampton, NY)- http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/maidstone/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/maidstone/)
    Moon Brook Country Club - Private in (Jamestown, NY)
    St Albans GC  (St Albans, NY)
    Willowdale - [now Westwood] (original 9 holes) (Buffalo, NY)

North Carolina

     Happy Valley CC  (Asheville, NC)

Ohio

     Ashland Golf Club - Semi-Private in (Ashland, OH)
    Congress Lake Club (Ross/Park jr) - Private- (Hartville, Ohio)
    Defiance (Kettering) CC- Semi-private- (Defiance, OH)
    East Liverpool CC  (East Liverpool, OH)
     Marion Country Club, The - Private in (Marion, OH)
    Mill Creek (Youngston,OH)
    Sylvania CC - Priv. (Sylvania, OH)- http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58648.msg1377737.html#msg1377737 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58648.msg1377737.html#msg1377737)
    Toledo Country Club,The - Private  (Toledo, OH)- Still not sure about how much he did and how much left

Pennsylvania

     Abington Club aka Old York Road CC (original 9 Land, Tillie 17' or 18') (Jenkintown, PA)   
    Ashbourne CC (Cheltenham, PA) (NLE)
    Berkshire Country Club - Private in (Reading, PA)- http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Berkshire/ (http://xchem.villanova.edu/%7Ebausch/images/albums/Berkshire/)
    Chartiers Country Club - Private in (Pittsburgh, PA)
    Green Valley CC (Roxborough, PA)
    Penn State Golf Courses (Blue) - Public in (State College, PA)
    Nittany at Penn State Golf Courses - Public in (State College, PA)
    Philmont Country Club (North) - Private in (Huntingdon Valley, PA)
    Pittsburgh Field Club (Pittsburgh, PA)
    Schuykill CC (Pottsville, PA)-(Park holes left 1, 5-7, 14-18)-Kyle Harris notes
    Youghiogheny Country Club - Private in (McKeesport, PA)

Rhode Island

     Agawam Hunt Club - Private in (East Providence, RI)
    Metacomet- RI  (Park Jr/Redesigned by Ross) A few Park Greens left-13th, 15th and 16th greens.
    Misquamicut GC (Westerly, RI)  (Ross involved later)
    Newport GC- (Newport, RI)  is this the New Hampshire course?
    Pawtucket Country Club - Private in (Pawtucket, RI)

Vermont

     Shelburne Farms Links (Shelburne, VT)
    St. Johnsbury Country Club - Semi-Private in (Saint Johnsbury, VT)

Virginia

     Boonsboro CC (Lynchburg, VA) - Consultation
    Princess Anne (Virginia Beach, VA) ?-not confirmed, could be Ross
             
Wales

     Barry, Glamorganshire (NLE)     
     Dinas Powis Golf Club in Vale of Glamorgan
     Southerndown, Glamorgan


Investigate
Cooden Beach
Tynemouth
Gog Magog- Already on list
Aldbeburgh
Berkhampsted
Broadstone
Grove Park Inn?
Reidsville
St Andrews GC  (Mount Hope)
Unamed Course in Meridian 





Some old links
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=2219.0 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=2219.0)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Tyler Kearns on August 31, 2014, 11:41:57 PM
Not sure if you are compiling a list or not, but you could add two golf courses from Winnipeg, Manitoba to the list, both NLE;

Southwood Golf & Country Club
Winnipeg Golf Club

TK
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 01, 2014, 08:48:07 AM
Tyler,

 Thanks, I updated the list.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Tim Martin on September 01, 2014, 09:28:50 AM
B-I don't see Maidstone on the list.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 01, 2014, 09:34:04 AM
B-I don't see Maidstone on the list.

updated, thanks
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Jim_Coleman on September 01, 2014, 11:08:50 AM
    I think, after much hand wringing, it has been determined that Philmont (outside Philly) is a Park, not a Flynn.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 01, 2014, 11:16:25 AM
    I think, after much hand wringing, it has been determined that Philmont (outside Philly) is a Park, not a Flynn.

Jim,

  Could the north course be the Flynn and South course be the Park Jr?  The clubs website isn't specific in that regard.  http://www.philmontcc.org/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=377030&ssid=293039&vnf=1
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Joe Bausch on September 01, 2014, 11:33:22 AM
    I think, after much hand wringing, it has been determined that Philmont (outside Philly) is a Park, not a Flynn.

Jim,

  Could the north course be the Flynn and South course be the Park Jr?  The clubs website isn't specific in that regard.  http://www.philmontcc.org/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=377030&ssid=293039&vnf=1

Just use the search function guys and you'd find all the Philmont stuff you want.   :)

Flynn did not design anything at Philmont, IMHO.  The North course is a Park course.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 01, 2014, 11:59:37 AM
joe/jim,

updated
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: James Boon on September 01, 2014, 12:24:04 PM
BC,

Its a pedantic point I'm afraid, but the entry for Notts should really read "Notts Golf Club (Hollinwell)" as that is the full title.

Notts being the club, which was previously at a couple of other courses in the later part of the 19th Century (one now known as Bulwell Forest was also laid out by Park Jnr I think?) before moving to its current course known as Hollinwell in 1901 the original layout for which was done by Park Jnr.

Cheers,

James
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on September 01, 2014, 01:29:00 PM
You could cross check from this list:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=53323.0

plus:
Congress Lake Club - Ohio
Ashland Ė Ohio
Burhill (Old) GC -Surrey
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 01, 2014, 01:54:30 PM
Thanks Jim,

 sorry about the duplicate thread, i didn't scroll to the very bottom to see the other thread.

The membership was quite taken by this new game and requested more. In 1926 when more land became available, the clubís commissioned the greatest course architect in history, Donald Ross, to rework the Park original routing. Ross creations are legendary and include Pinehurst, Oak Hill, Seminole, and most of the great courses of all time. He modified the first seven holes and designed the next ten. The original Park design of #18 was kept intact by Mr. Ross. The Donald Ross Course at Congress Lake opened for play in 1932 and has become our most famous asset.

http://www.congresslakeclub.com/Public-Home/Our-History.aspx

Congress lake has Ross routing in it too.  Ross/Park track...
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Chris_Blakely on September 01, 2014, 02:52:26 PM
I thought Tom Macwood uncovered that Toledo CC was William Watson?

Chris
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 01, 2014, 03:23:16 PM
I thought Tom Macwood uncovered that Toledo CC was William Watson?

Chris


The current 18 at Toledo was built in 1911. Willie Park, Jr moved permanently to the US in 1916 (after a couple visits in the mid-90s). When I pointed this out to the club they had little interest. I knew it wasn't Park in 1911, but Watson was not someone I suspected. Willie Park did redesign the course later, and listed it, my guess that was around 1919 around the time he built Sylvania.

Tom Macwood


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=330.35;wap2

Rick Smith was an asst pro at TCC.  
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on September 01, 2014, 03:39:42 PM
-Came across an article saying WPjr  laid-out Knollwood CC (Westchester) in 1895, but his work was already being remodeled one year later.

-An 18 hole course for the Societie de Golf at Paris,  on sandy and well-turfed ground near Versailles.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: ward peyronnin on September 01, 2014, 09:13:00 PM
Can anyone comment on the Peterhead Courses. These are near enough Cruden Bay and I winder should I take a look when I am there?

I have sung the praises of BurntIsland many times on this site
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Niall Hay on September 01, 2014, 09:40:21 PM
How many holes did he do at Meadowbrook Country Club - Private in (Northville, MI)?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: SL_Solow on September 01, 2014, 09:49:51 PM
I believe he did OFCC North, most recently renovated by Mark Mungeam.  OFCC South is a composite from parts of OFCC's other courses largely Tom Bendelow, most recently renovated by Steve Smyers.  Both had work done by Jack Daray and the Packards from time to time.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 01, 2014, 09:54:26 PM
I believe he did OFCC North, most recently renovated by Mark Mungeam.  OFCC South is a composite from parts of OFCC's other courses largely Tom Bendelow, most recently renovated by Steve Smyers.  Both had work done by Jack Daray and the Packards from time to time.

You are correct, my bad.  updated
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 01, 2014, 09:55:47 PM
How many holes did he do at Meadowbrook Country Club - Private in (Northville, MI)?

6 holes

http://mccgcm.blogspot.com/2011/12/northville-historical-society-tribute.html
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Aaron McMaster on September 01, 2014, 10:08:08 PM
How many holes did he do at Meadowbrook Country Club - Private in (Northville, MI)?

6 holes

http://mccgcm.blogspot.com/2011/12/northville-historical-society-tribute.html

I don't care who originally did it or remodeled it, only a large bomb can help that place now.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Yannick Pilon on September 01, 2014, 11:26:33 PM
Hi Ben,

Here in Quebec, you can add these two courses to the list:

Mount Bruno Country Club, St-Bruno, QC
Club de Golf Islesmere (Blue and White nines), Laval, QC

His name is also associated with past versions of the following clubs:
Whitlock Golf & Country Club, Hudson-Heights, QC
Beaconsfield GC, Beaconsfield, QC
Royal Montreal, Dorval, QC (NLE)

I also believe that a few Willie Park holes remain at the 9-hole Dorval Municipal course in Dorval, QC.  The shaping of these few holes is very similar to shaping that can be found at Laval-sur-le-Lac and Islesmere.  Those holes were once part of the Elm Ridge Country Club which later moved to Ile Bizard, QC.

I hope this will help.

YP
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Tom Kelly on September 02, 2014, 06:06:02 AM
BC,

Its a pedantic point I'm afraid, but the entry for Notts should really read "Notts Golf Club (Hollinwell)" as that is the full title.

Notts being the club, which was previously at a couple of other courses in the later part of the 19th Century (one now known as Bulwell Forest was also laid out by Park Jnr I think?) before moving to its current course known as Hollinwell in 1901 the original layout for which was done by Park Jnr.

Cheers,

James

I didn't realise Bulwell was a Park Jnr too, though to be honest I'd never bothered to even think about who designed it. I've always quite liked it, far more interesting than the other muni's in Nottingham and you always see some interesting sights from the local estate too.....It's pretty tight on space now but the routing covers the hillier parts of the course well which does seem quite Park like so you could well be right.

If you want fast & firm it's always a good bet during the summer!
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on September 02, 2014, 06:15:18 AM
I had thought Portstewart should be added to the list but it appears he only did some revisions.

http://www.portstewartgc.co.uk/the-club/history/
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 02, 2014, 08:18:31 AM
Yannick, Tony, and Tom,

  Thanks for the info, updates made
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Kevin Lynch on September 02, 2014, 08:46:41 AM
Joe Bausch & I worked on a research stint for Willowdale (now Westwood CC) in the suburbs of Buffalo.  Park's original 9 holes remain in use.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55850.msg1296166.html#msg1296166 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55850.msg1296166.html#msg1296166)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Scott Macpherson on September 02, 2014, 09:10:47 AM
Ben, Yannick


WP Jr also designed the "Royal" course at Royal Quebec GC (opened June 1925). I think this may have been the last course he designed as after supervising the construction work he was taken back to Scotland in poor health and died in the spring of 1925, prior to the course opening.

Scott
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 02, 2014, 09:21:21 AM
Kevin, Scott, and Joe

Thanks, updates made

My hunch is Willie made the comment to various clubs that ''this is the best piece of land I have ever seen for a golf course''.  
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 02, 2014, 12:55:15 PM
A few updates for the US (culled from various sources):

Ashbourne CC (Ashbourne, PA)
Bellefonte CC (Ashland, KY)
Boonsboro CC (Lynchburg, VA) - Consultation
CC of Farmington (Farmington, CT)
Glen Ridge CC (Glen Ridge, NJ)
Grand Rapids CC (Grand Rapids, MI) aka Lakeview CC
Green Valley CC (Waynesburg, PA) oka Marble Hall Links
Grove Park Inn & CC (Asheville, NC) fka Asheville CC oka Swannanoa G&CC
John H. Cain GC (Newport, NH) (possibly the same as Newport GC)
Knollwood CC (White Plains, NY)
Miami Beach GC (Bay Shore) (Miami Beach, FL) aka Alton Beach
Misquamicut GC (Westerly, RI)
Pittsburgh Field Club (Pittsburgh, PA)
Schuykill CC (Pottsville, PA)
Shelburne Farms Links (Shelburne, VT)
St. Albans CC (St. Albans, NY)
St. Louis Amateur Athletic Association (St. Louis, MO) aka Triple A CC

I have also seen passing references to Park having worked at Canoe Brook, Cherry Valley and Goshen.  Nothing concrete enough to look into further.


Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Chris DeToro on September 02, 2014, 01:04:45 PM
I thought Misquamicut in RI was a Donald Ross but could be mistaken
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 02, 2014, 01:18:06 PM
I thought Misquamicut in RI was a Donald Ross but could be mistaken

Misquamicut dates back to 1895, prior to Donald Ross coming over here.  The 1899 Golf Guide notes the first 9 holes was laid out by W. Park in 1895 with the second 9 by W. Anderson in 1896.

There are quite a few courses on these lists that are Ross and Park, at different times, along with a number of other architects.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: DMoriarty on September 02, 2014, 04:21:46 PM
Sven,  I thought Grove Park Inn was Barker?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on September 02, 2014, 05:06:33 PM
Willie was hired by my club, Scarboro in Toronto, to renovate the course in 2914 but he returned home in the fall of 1924 and passed away in Scotland in the first half of 1925.  The club called the USGA and asked for them to recommend an architect which led to the hiring of A.W. Tillinghast.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 02, 2014, 05:47:34 PM
Sven,  I thought Grove Park Inn was Barker?

David:

Grove Park Inn is one of the toughest courses to pin down who did what when, particularly due to the various name changes.  At different times it was known as:

Grove Park Inn & CC
Asheville CC
Asheville G&CC
Swannanoa G&CC
Swannanoa Hunt Club

From what I've gathered, the course began as a 9 holer laid out by J. McCloskey in 1897 (it was noted as Swannanoa CC in a Jan. 1898 Golf Magazine article).  The 1899 Golfer's Guide notes a new and better nine hole course was laid out in the Fall of 1899.  The name changed to Asheville CC in 1905, with a second 9 holes being added around 1907 (although I've seen dates for the work being done by Barker in 1911).  The Givens Library has Park doing work in 1909, which doesn't coincide with the 1917 date given for him from other sources.  Ross came in some time later, and some sources claim the second 9 holes is his.  The course became Grove Park Inn some time in the 70's.

The early guides match up with the change to 18 holes in the range of the dates given above for Barker and Park (the 1908 Golfer's Guide has 9 holes, while the 1916 Annual Guide notes 18).

If you have additional information on any of this, please let me know.

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 02, 2014, 05:52:09 PM
Another interested party sent me a message with a question regarding Green Valley CC.  Another confusing case due to one club purchasing the course of another, resulting in a name change:

1919 - Park builds Green Valley CC in Roxborough.

1924 - Flynn/Toomey build Marble Hall Links.

1940's - Members of Green Valley CC purchase the Marble Hall course and move locations.  Subsequently original Green Valley course is NLE.


Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: DMoriarty on September 02, 2014, 08:54:49 PM
Sven,

I think there have been a number of threads where Grove Park has been discussed.  Here is a link to a Tom MacWood thread wherein he straightens out some of the history.  (Ironically, by the time Tom straightened it out, the course had already done extensive Ross restoration work, even though Ross's work there was minimal at most.)

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18432.0.html

The gist is that the course couldn't have been Willie Park in 1909 because Park wasn't in the country.  Tom MacWood was able to put Park there in 1916-1917, but changes were not made to the course at this point, and Tom suggested that either Park had suggested changes which were not carried out, or that Park had offered plans for a second course that was not built.

Either way, while Park did list it in his advertising, it doesn't sound like it is a Park course.  Or at least there is no evidence confirming that it is a Park course.

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Joey Chase on September 03, 2014, 12:10:51 AM
Ben,

I don't know if any changes were made over the years but Monte Carlo Golf Club in Monaco is, or was, a Park Jr. Course.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Rich Goodale on September 03, 2014, 12:56:36 AM
Can anyone comment on the Peterhead Courses. These are near enough Cruden Bay and I winder should I take a look when I am there?

I have sung the praises of BurntIsland many times on this site

Wardo

I've played the Old Course at Peterhead, and it is a very solid links course, even though the first three holes are slightly agricultural.  It is the 3rd most important site in Peterhead, after the craft brewery (Brewdog) and its recently abandoned Victorian prison.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 03, 2014, 02:24:21 AM
Sven,

I think there have been a number of threads where Grove Park has been discussed.  Here is a link to a Tom MacWood thread wherein he straightens out some of the history.  (Ironically, by the time Tom straightened it out, the course had already done extensive Ross restoration work, even though Ross's work there was minimal at most.)

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18432.0.html

The gist is that the course couldn't have been Willie Park in 1909 because Park wasn't in the country.  Tom MacWood was able to put Park there in 1916-1917, but changes were not made to the course at this point, and Tom suggested that either Park had suggested changes which were not carried out, or that Park had offered plans for a second course that was not built.

Either way, while Park did list it in his advertising, it doesn't sound like it is a Park course.  Or at least there is no evidence confirming that it is a Park course.



David:

I've read every thread on this site that discusses Grove Park Inn.  While the thread you linked to does have some interesting information on DR's involvement, it does little to prove or disprove Park's involvement.

MacWood did offer the supposition that Park may have proposed plans for a new course in 1916-17 (I am also aware that Park was not in the country in 1909, but wanted to point out the discrepancy in the record from the source noted).

Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: DMoriarty on September 03, 2014, 02:35:08 AM
Sven,

Likewise, the listing in Park's promotional material doesn't prove he designed it, especially given that there is no indication elsewhere that Park did anything on the ground in 1916-17 or at any other time.   I don't think it makes sense to list Park as the designer (or even one of the designers) without some proof.

The best evidence I recall that strongly suggested it couldn't have been Park was the stick routing from circa 1913.  As I recall, stick routing showed the same basic course as existed long after Park supposedly (re)designed it, with the only changes relating to the area around the new clubhouse (the minor Ross changes.)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Scott Macpherson on September 03, 2014, 06:41:00 AM
Ben,

I have gone through the book on Willie Park Jr by Walter Stephen and cross checked the courses they list with the courses you list, and here are the courses that you might consider adding to your list;

I might make the note that some of the courses may have altered, some may no longer exist, some may have changed name. I am not sure of the extent of Park's work on these courses and have not crossed checked the list against other sources for accuracy, but I am sure someone will do that in due course. Either way, it is an impressive list of work, and one that should be documented properly.

Scotland

Bo'ness
Bridge of Weir
Carnoustie
Crieff
Dalkeith and Newbattle
Forres
Gailes
Glencorse
Glasgow
Granton-on-Spey
Innellan
Jedburgh
Kilspindie
Melrose
Monifieth
Murrayfield
New Luftness
Selkirk
Shiskine
St Boswells
Torwoodlee
Turnhouse

England
Acton
Aldeburgh
Alnworth
Barry
Berkhamstead
Berwick-upon-Tweed
Bexhill
Blundell Sands
Brighton & Hove
Broadstone
Cambridge University
Cannon's Park
Chiselhurst
Coombe Hill
Cuckfield
Edgeware
Formby
Gravesend
Frinton-on-Sea
Goswick
Hartlepool
Headingley
Hendon
Knebworth
Lombardzide
Muswell Hill
Neasdon
Newbigging-by-Sea
Northhampton
Nottingham
Richmond
Seaford
Sheerness
Shooters Hill
Sunbridge Park
Tooting Bec
Totteridge
Tranmere
Tynemouth
Wembley
West Middlesex

Ireland
Killarney
Larne
Londonderry

Europe
Antwerp
La Boulie
Dieppe
Costbelle, Hyeres
Dinard
Evian-les0Bains
Monte Carlo
Rouen
Vienna

Canada
Abitibi Power and Paper Co, Iroquois Falls, ON
Bowness GC, Calgary, AB
Calgary St Andrews GC, Calcary, AB
Islesmere GC, Islesmere, QC
Kentville GC, Kentville, NS
Senneville Country Club, Senneville, QC
Summerlea GC, Montreal, QC

USA
Alton Beach Country Club, Miami, FL
Asheville Country Club, Asheville, NC
Automobile CC, Detroit, MI
Baltimore Country Club, Baltimore, MD
Country Club of Atlantic City, Northfield, NJ
Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH
Glen Ridge Country Club, Glen Ridge, NJ
Grand Rapids Country Club, Grand Rapids, MI
Green Valley Country Club, Roxborough, PA
Hoosie-Whisick Club, Canton, MA
Metacomet Golf Club, East Providence, RI
New Bedford Country Club, New Bedford, MA
New Canaan Country Club, New Canaan, CI
Ocean City Country Club, Ocean City, NJ
Pittsburgh Field Club, Pittsburgh, PA
St Albans Golf Club, St Albans, NY
State College, State College, PA

Just have a question about Rolland Road GC in MD. You say 'Rolling Road'. Is this correct, or is it 'Rolland'?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Mark Pearce on September 03, 2014, 06:44:41 AM
The club certainly attribute Goswick to Braid.  I don't know the basis for that or the history of the course.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Scott Macpherson on September 03, 2014, 06:57:57 AM
Hi Mark,

Yes, getting the correct attribution is difficult some times. I don't know much more about Goswick, but based on the dates Park and Braid were active, it could be that Braid may have come along and redesigned/renovated the course after Park. I think this is what happened at Royal Burgess.

Also, the course Park deigned at Dalkeith and Newbattle is not the course that exists now. Both were on the Newbattle Estate, but Park's 9-hole course (1896) was about a mile from the 18-hole Dalkeith and Newbattle course designed by Colt, Alsion & Morrison (in 1934), and was abandoned when the guttie ball was replaced by the rubber-cored ball.

Scott
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Tom Kelly on September 03, 2014, 07:18:01 AM
BC,

Its a pedantic point I'm afraid, but the entry for Notts should really read "Notts Golf Club (Hollinwell)" as that is the full title.

Notts being the club, which was previously at a couple of other courses in the later part of the 19th Century (one now known as Bulwell Forest was also laid out by Park Jnr I think?) before moving to its current course known as Hollinwell in 1901 the original layout for which was done by Park Jnr.

Cheers,

James

I didn't realise Bulwell was a Park Jnr too, though to be honest I'd never bothered to even think about who designed it. I've always quite liked it, far more interesting than the other muni's in Nottingham and you always see some interesting sights from the local estate too.....It's pretty tight on space now but the routing covers the hillier parts of the course well which does seem quite Park like so you could well be right.

If you want fast & firm it's always a good bet during the summer!

I've been doing abit of fishing about Tom Dunn and found a GCA IMO piece by Tom MacWood which quotes Dunn as saying he laid out Bulwell Forest. Not sure whether Willie Park then altered the layout afterwards though?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: James Boon on September 03, 2014, 08:17:43 AM
Tom, and Ben,

I did a bit more digging myself...

I've a photocopy of a Willie Park Junior advert (will edit with the correct date later today when I get home) that states both Hollinwell and Nottingham. These are also both mentioned in the recent biography as Scott mentions below.

The specific mention of both Hollinwell and Nottingham is what probably lead me to assume that Park Junior had also done at least some work at Bulwell Forest which only got its name when Notts GC moved to Hollinwell and would previously have been referred to as Nottingham and then formally shortened to Notts (again will edit with dates later...). However, a quick read though the two history books of the club and I didnt see a specific mention of this, but will look more thoroughly and report back.

Cheers,

James
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 03, 2014, 11:05:46 AM
Sven,

Likewise, the listing in Park's promotional material doesn't prove he designed it, especially given that there is no indication elsewhere that Park did anything on the ground in 1916-17 or at any other time.   I don't think it makes sense to list Park as the designer (or even one of the designers) without some proof.

The best evidence I recall that strongly suggested it couldn't have been Park was the stick routing from circa 1913.  As I recall, stick routing showed the same basic course as existed long after Park supposedly (re)designed it, with the only changes relating to the area around the new clubhouse (the minor Ross changes.)

David:

There is nothing dispositive either way, nor on the extent of his work.  My preference for a comprehensive listing would be to note Park's visit with the disclaimer that it is unclear what exactly he did.  That is how I have it in my files.

Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on September 03, 2014, 11:11:06 AM
Ben,

I have gone through the book on Willie Park Jr by Walter Stephen and cross checked the courses they list with the courses you list, and here are the courses that you might consider adding to your list;

I might make the note that some of the courses may have altered, some may no longer exist, some may have changed name. I am not sure of the extent of Park's work on these courses and have not crossed checked the list against other sources for accuracy, but I am sure someone will do that in due course. Either way, it is an impressive list of work, and one that should be documented properly.

Scotland

Bo'ness
Bridge of Weir
Carnoustie
Crieff
Dalkeith and Newbattle
Forres
Gailes
Glencorse
Glasgow
Granton-on-Spey
Innellan
Jedburgh
Kilspindie
Melrose
Monifieth
Murrayfield
New Luftness
Selkirk
Shiskine
St Boswells
Torwoodlee
Turnhouse

England
Acton
Aldeburgh
Alnworth
Barry
Berkhamstead
Berwick-upon-Tweed
Bexhill
Blundell Sands
Brighton & Hove
Broadstone
Cambridge University
Cannon's Park
Chiselhurst
Coombe Hill
Cuckfield
Edgeware
Formby
Gravesend
Frinton-on-Sea
Goswick
Hartlepool
Headingley
Hendon
Knebworth
Lombardzide
Muswell Hill
Neasdon
Newbigging-by-Sea
Northhampton
Nottingham
Richmond
Seaford
Sheerness
Shooters Hill
Sunbridge Park
Tooting Bec
Totteridge
Tranmere
Tynemouth
Wembley
West Middlesex

Ireland
Killarney
Larne
Londonderry

Europe
Antwerp
La Boulie
Dieppe
Costbelle, Hyeres
Dinard
Evian-les0Bains
Monte Carlo
Rouen
Vienna

Canada
Abitibi Power and Paper Co, Iroquois Falls, ON
Bowness GC, Calgary, AB
Calgary St Andrews GC, Calcary, AB
Islesmere GC, Islesmere, QC
Kentville GC, Kentville, NS
Senneville Country Club, Senneville, QC
Summerlea GC, Montreal, QC

USA
Alton Beach Country Club, Miami, FL
Asheville Country Club, Asheville, NC
Automobile CC, Detroit, MI
Baltimore Country Club, Baltimore, MD
Country Club of Atlantic City, Northfield, NJ
Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH
Glen Ridge Country Club, Glen Ridge, NJ
Grand Rapids Country Club, Grand Rapids, MI
Green Valley Country Club, Roxborough, PA
Hoosie-Whisick Club, Canton, MA
Metacomet Golf Club, East Providence, RI
New Bedford Country Club, New Bedford, MA
New Canaan Country Club, New Canaan, CI
Ocean City Country Club, Ocean City, NJ
Pittsburgh Field Club, Pittsburgh, PA
St Albans Golf Club, St Albans, NY
State College, State College, PA

Just have a question about Rolland Road GC in MD. You say 'Rolling Road'. Is this correct, or is it 'Rolland'?

Scott and Ben I find the Walter Stephen book as a poor record of anything. e.g. he writes of his visit to Portstewart without noting that 9 of the holes he played were from 1990 and as noted above Park only did revisions there.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 03, 2014, 11:41:19 AM
To avoid any confusion, many of the US courses Scott provided as additions have been noted elsewhere in this thread:

USA

Alton Beach Country Club, Miami, FL - this is the same as the Miami Beach CC Bayshore Course.
Asheville Country Club, Asheville, NC - this is the same as Grove Park Inn.
Automobile CC, Detroit, MI - Same as Pine Lake CC.
Country Club of Atlantic City, Northfield, NJ - Same as Atlantic City CC.
Hoosie-Whisick Club, Canton, MA - Same as Milton-Hoosic Club.
New Bedford Country Club, New Bedford, MA - Same as CC of New Bedford.
New Canaan Country Club, New Canaan, CI - Same as CC of New Canaan.
Ocean City Country Club, Ocean City, NJ - Same as Greate Bay CC.
State College, State College, PA - Same as Blue and Nittany courses at Penn State.

I have some questions regarding some of the other listings:

Baltimore Country Club, Baltimore, MD - Attributed to Willie Dunn.
Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH - Attributed to Bendelow, would like more information to clear this up.
Metacomet Golf Club, East Providence, RI - Pretty sure this is a confusion with Agawam, which was originally designed by Park.  The members of Agawam purchased the Metacomet course in the 20's, which I understand was built by Ross.

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 03, 2014, 12:57:07 PM
Here's the information on Asheville CC/Grove Park Inn from the Tufts site:

Scope & Content:

Asheville, Country Club of
Lake View Park
Beaver Lake Country Club
Willie Park - 1909 - 9
Ross Course - (R) - add 9 - 1924

Asheville Country Club - Grove Park Inn - Ross Designed Course Information Sheet completed by Tony Sparacino, General Mgr.

Beaver Lake Country Club Hole 16 layout
Asheville CC was Beaver Lake
Current Grove park was Asheville CC
Therefore- Asheville & Grove Park Are
Ross Course

Title:

Asheville, Country Club of


There is so much wrong with this listing that I'm not really sure where to start.

First, CC of Asheville and Asheville CC were not one and the same.  CC of Asheville came to be in the 1970's when the Beaver Lake course was renamed.

Second, the 1909 date for Park, as noted in this thread, is wrong.

Third, by 1924 the Asheville CC/Grove Park Inn course already had 18 holes.

This is just one example of how name changes can muddle the historical record.  The following is a Sept. 6, 1931 article from The Pittsburgh Press discussing golf in the Asheville area.  The following courses in Asheville are noted:

Asheville CC - the course that became Grove Park Inn
Lake View Park course - with the note that it is under the supervision of "the Asheville Club."  I believe this was Beaver Lake CC, which later became CC of Asheville.
Biltmore Forest CC
Malvern Hills Club
Asheville Municipal GC

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Asheville-ThePittsburghPressSept619311_zps97537617.png)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Asheville-ThePittsburghPressSept619312_zpsf2f70f90.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 03, 2014, 01:29:35 PM
One final note on Asheville.

O.B. Keeler penned a short work called Golf in North Carolina.  I'm not sure of the exact date, but in it he states he visited Asheville again a dozen years after the Jones/Ouimet exhibition match, placing the writing in the early 30's.

http://books.google.com/books?id=A8gWAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT41&dq=%22asheville+country+club%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G00HVKWCOaq6igKf_oDAAw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%22asheville%20country%20club%22&f=false

Here's his quote on the courses in Asheville:

"Five courses, in and above Asheville; the Asheville Country Club, Ernest Ballard, professional, its 6,057 yards greatly revised, and a clubhouse with a couple of dozen guest-rooms.  The Biltmore Forest Country Club at Biltmore - where we found the fifteenth annual Women's Invitational Tournament about starting; the Beaver Lake Golf Club, with my old friend, Henry Westall, as manager; the Municipal Golf Course; and the Malvern Hills Golf Club, the last three public courses, and all but the first and last named creations of Donald Ross."
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Dan Kelly on September 03, 2014, 01:45:17 PM
I haven't seen anyone mention Interlachen CC.

Park did some work there, I think.

Rick Shefchik ("From Fields to Fairways: Classic Golf Clubs of Minnesota") could tell you more.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 03, 2014, 02:08:14 PM
Dan:

Wasn't Interlachen William Watson?

Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: DMoriarty on September 03, 2014, 06:34:53 PM
David:

There is nothing dispositive either way, nor on the extent of his work.  My preference for a comprehensive listing would be to note Park's visit with the disclaimer that it is unclear what exactly he did.  That is how I have it in my files.

Sven

For your files (or mine) that makes sense, but my inclination for a list such as being created in this thread would be to leave the course off unless something tangible actually links Willie Park Jr. to some work which was actually performed on the ground.

Given that the routing was roughly the same before Park's involvement and after, it sure doesn't seem like we ought to be calling this a Park course.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 03, 2014, 07:03:33 PM
David:

There is nothing dispositive either way, nor on the extent of his work.  My preference for a comprehensive listing would be to note Park's visit with the disclaimer that it is unclear what exactly he did.  That is how I have it in my files.

Sven

For your files (or mine) that makes sense, but my inclination for a list such as being created in this thread would be to leave the course off unless something tangible actually links Willie Park Jr. to some work which was actually performed on the ground.

Given that the routing was roughly the same before Park's involvement and after, it sure doesn't seem like we ought to be calling this a Park course.

David:

I think the same might hold true for quite a few courses on this list.  Part of the reason I think its better to err on the side of completeness, rather than just throwing a name and a course out on the web.

Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Dan Kelly on September 04, 2014, 07:05:04 AM
Dan:

Wasn't Interlachen Willie Watson?

Sven

Yes. And then Ross. I thought Willie Park played a role, too, but apparently I was wrong.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: archie_struthers on September 04, 2014, 08:40:55 AM
 ;D :D

I'm particularly intrigued with Park's use of false fronts do defend par .  At Greate Bay ( originally Somers Point -Ocean City GC ). He used them very effectively .  Many of them are small in stature but have lots of impact , notably  on what are now our tenth and seventeenth holes. The 17 th is really ,really well done, particularly because a good drive leaves you on a slightly down hill lie , making it harder to flight the ball just right .

Whenever you see a well done false front , think Willie Park , Jr.

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Niall Hay on September 04, 2014, 08:45:07 AM

Automobile CC, Detroit, MI - Same as Pine Lake CC.


When did this name change happen? Any more detail?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Niall Hay on September 04, 2014, 08:47:24 AM

Automobile CC, Detroit, MI - Same as Pine Lake CC.


When did this name change happen? Any more detail?

Found it, "In 1921, we had officially become Pine Lake Country Club, recognizing the change from an automobile club to a country club spectrum of interests."

http://pinelakecc.com/
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Tom Kelly on September 04, 2014, 10:16:40 AM
Whenever you see a well done false front , think Willie Park , Jr.

Interesting that you should say this, whenever I see a good false front I always think of Colt.

I wonder whether the Sunningdale connection has anything to do with this?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Adam Lawrence on September 04, 2014, 10:17:53 AM
Whenever you see a well done false front , think Willie Park , Jr.

Interesting that you should say this, whenever I see a good false front I always think of Colt.

I wonder whether the Sunningdale connection has anything to do with this?

Me too, because of Colt's fondness for using natural high spots to locate his greens.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on September 04, 2014, 10:35:55 AM
The present day Country Club of Asheville was purchased by the club around 1976. Prior to the purchase Beaver Lake golf course was in bad shape and much of the funding CCA acquired from the sale of the original course was used to rebuild the course as well as build a new clubhouse on its original location. Beaver Lake, Originally known as Lakeview Park, was built in connection to the Lakeview Park neighborhood that surrounds and borders the west part of the course. Donald ross built the course around 1927-28 with the plan for the clubhouse to be placed at its current location but up until 1976 the clubhouse was found across Merrimon Ave. and the current 4th hole played as the first. There is evidence to suggest that prior to Ross there was a nine hole course that played up the river valley where the current 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th holes preside and I've seen notes on maps as early as 1917 that suggest the existence golf in this area. If true I believe this would be the location for the possible Parks course.

The Grove Park Inn course history is more straightforward with the expansion of the Swannanoa Country Club into golf beginning with a basic golf course at the location of their hunt club. As golf gained popularity amongst the members golf was moved to the current property and the name was changed to the Asheville Country Club, a full 18 hole course was completed around 1905. Donald Ross was brought in to improve the course in 1913 but it does not appear he did a significant amount of work to alter the original layout. Much of the layout changes were in response to a clubhouse fire in the 20's and the expansion of the hotel in the 80's.  The clubs name was changed again in the mid '40s to Country Club of Asheville and the course was sold to the Grove Park Inn in 1976.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 04, 2014, 03:33:00 PM
Ben:

Curious as to your sources on the GPI info you posted, please let me know.  I have not seen anything discussing Ross being involved prior to the 20's.  MacWood's research was pretty sound on Barker's work around 1911.

Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: James Brown on September 04, 2014, 11:33:16 PM
Penn State White Course is a Willie Park Jr. original.  (It's profiled on the commentary part of the site)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sean_A on September 05, 2014, 03:47:35 AM
;D :D

I'm particularly intrigued with Park's use of false fronts do defend par .  At Greate Bay ( originally Somers Point -Ocean City GC ). He used them very effectively .  Many of them are small in stature but have lots of impact , notably  on what are now our tenth and seventeenth holes. The 17 th is really ,really well done, particularly because a good drive leaves you on a slightly down hill lie , making it harder to flight the ball just right .

Whenever you see a well done false front , think Willie Park , Jr.



Interesting, whenever I play Park Jr courses I am intrigued by the many front to back greens.  Do the American examples have many front to backers?

Ciao
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 05, 2014, 08:56:57 AM
Thanks for all the posts, I will try and update this list this weekend.  I tried to break them down by region/country, I am sure I put some in the wrong place (apologies). 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on September 05, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Ben:

Curious as to your sources on the GPI info you posted, please let me know.  I have not seen anything discussing Ross being involved prior to the 20's.  MacWood's research was pretty sound on Barker's work around 1911.

Sven

Sven,

I've looked through my notes on Grove Park and CCA and I unfortunately can't locate where that date came from. It is something I had remembered and my guess is its a retained date from the CCA history in the past. With as much work as Ross did in western NC in the 20's it would make the most sense that his work at Grove Park would have been around 1923 rather than 1913. As I mentioned before, Ross's work at Grove Park was minimal. Odds are much of his modern day credit to the course is probably heavily clouded in the name change of the 40's and the sale of the 70's.  At this point there are very few members left from when the club played on the original course and I don't believe many records have been retained dating back that far.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on September 13, 2014, 11:27:45 AM
To avoid any confusion, many of the US courses Scott provided as additions have been noted elsewhere in this thread:

USA

Alton Beach Country Club, Miami, FL - this is the same as the Miami Beach CC Bayshore Course.
Asheville Country Club, Asheville, NC - this is the same as Grove Park Inn.
Automobile CC, Detroit, MI - Same as Pine Lake CC.
Country Club of Atlantic City, Northfield, NJ - Same as Atlantic City CC.
Hoosie-Whisick Club, Canton, MA - Same as Milton-Hoosic Club.
New Bedford Country Club, New Bedford, MA - Same as CC of New Bedford.
New Canaan Country Club, New Canaan, CI - Same as CC of New Canaan.
Ocean City Country Club, Ocean City, NJ - Same as Greate Bay CC.
State College, State College, PA - Same as Blue and Nittany courses at Penn State.

I have some questions regarding some of the other listings:

Baltimore Country Club, Baltimore, MD - Attributed to Willie Dunn.
Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH - Attributed to Bendelow, would like more information to clear this up.
Metacomet Golf Club, East Providence, RI - Pretty sure this is a confusion with Agawam, which was originally designed by Park.  The members of Agawam purchased the Metacomet course in the 20's, which I understand was built by Ross.

Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH - Attributed to Bendelow, would like more information to clear this up.

I used to play an annual Jr. tourney at this course.  I don't think it was a park course, the front nine possibly for the back 9 i think is post golden age.  The course is now semi-private and called Eagle Rock.  http://www.golfeaglerock.com/

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Chris_Blakely on September 13, 2014, 02:06:36 PM
To avoid any confusion, many of the US courses Scott provided as additions have been noted elsewhere in this thread:

USA

Alton Beach Country Club, Miami, FL - this is the same as the Miami Beach CC Bayshore Course.
Asheville Country Club, Asheville, NC - this is the same as Grove Park Inn.
Automobile CC, Detroit, MI - Same as Pine Lake CC.
Country Club of Atlantic City, Northfield, NJ - Same as Atlantic City CC.
Hoosie-Whisick Club, Canton, MA - Same as Milton-Hoosic Club.
New Bedford Country Club, New Bedford, MA - Same as CC of New Bedford.
New Canaan Country Club, New Canaan, CI - Same as CC of New Canaan.
Ocean City Country Club, Ocean City, NJ - Same as Greate Bay CC.
State College, State College, PA - Same as Blue and Nittany courses at Penn State.

I have some questions regarding some of the other listings:

Baltimore Country Club, Baltimore, MD - Attributed to Willie Dunn.
Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH - Attributed to Bendelow, would like more information to clear this up.
Metacomet Golf Club, East Providence, RI - Pretty sure this is a confusion with Agawam, which was originally designed by Park.  The members of Agawam purchased the Metacomet course in the 20's, which I understand was built by Ross.

Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH - Attributed to Bendelow, would like more information to clear this up.

I used to play an annual Jr. tourney at this course.  I don't think it was a park course, the front nine possibly for the back 9 i think is post golden age.  The course is now semi-private and called Eagle Rock.  http://www.golfeaglerock.com/



Eagle rock's front 9 is Bendelow and the back nine was added in the 80s.

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: DMoriarty on September 14, 2014, 01:47:47 PM
Here is a Grove Park Inn picture from 1920:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Old%20Photos/687ff4e2.jpg?t=1216148049)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Rick Shefchik on September 14, 2014, 11:52:50 PM
Dan:

Wasn't Interlachen Willie Watson?

Sven

Yes. And then Ross. I thought Willie Park played a role, too, but apparently I was wrong.

No Willie Park involvement at Interlachen. He did the initial layout work at Minneapolis GC in the fall of 1916, but did not return the following spring to finish the job. William Clark probably should get partial credit for MGC's first routing, as he finished the course after becoming the club's first head pro, and Park never claimed credit for it. Ross did the redesign in 1921.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 22, 2014, 08:16:57 PM
Add Abington Club, oak Old York Road CC, as a Park.  He did some work to the course in 1920, post the original Lang 9 holes and Tillie's involvement around 1917/18.

Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 23, 2014, 01:38:14 PM
One more possibility for the list.  The April 8, 1922 edition of The American Golfer has this blurb about Mill Creek in Youngstown, OH:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/MillCreekCC-TheAmericanGolferApr81922_zps2b0b9306.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 23, 2014, 01:44:24 PM
And another notation from the March 1920 edition of Golf Illustrated that suggests that in addition to the Bay Shore course at Miami Beach (aka Alton Beach), Park also laid out the Flamingo course:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/MiamiBeach-GolfIllustratedMarch1920_zps98a8e895.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 23, 2014, 06:05:38 PM
We might be able to add the NLE 3rd course at OFCC to the list.  The course, thought to have been originally laid out by Willie Watson, is discussed in a bit of detail in this May 1919 The American Golfer piece:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/OFCC-TheAmericanGolferMay1919_zpsf635c2fa.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 28, 2014, 01:11:22 PM
The Grove Park Inn course history is more straightforward with the expansion of the Swannanoa Country Club into golf beginning with a basic golf course at the location of their hunt club. As golf gained popularity amongst the members golf was moved to the current property and the name was changed to the Asheville Country Club, a full 18 hole course was completed around 1905. Donald Ross was brought in to improve the course in 1913 but it does not appear he did a significant amount of work to alter the original layout. Much of the layout changes were in response to a clubhouse fire in the 20's and the expansion of the hotel in the 80's.  The clubs name was changed again in the mid '40s to Country Club of Asheville and the course was sold to the Grove Park Inn in 1976.

Not sure if the following Jan. 1909 Golf Magazine article gets us any closer to figuring out who did what at Asheville CC (today's Grove Park Inn), but it does give us some benchmarks.

From the article, the original Swannanoa course essentially went out of existence in 1907, and was replaced by a new 9 hole course owned by the Asheville CC that covered some of the land occupied by the old course. 

The reports that Barker came in around 1911-12 to extend the course to 18 holes make sense with this timeline.  Still looking for confirmation of any involvement by Park and exactly when Ross was involved.

I've included three plans of the course as well, the first two being the old Swannano course (from the Feb. 1899 Golf Magazine and the Dec. 1904 Golfers Magazine) and the stick routing of the 18 hole Asheville CC course from some time after Barker's involvement.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Asheville-GolfMagazineJan1909_zps2006dce5.png)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/SwannanoaPlan-GolfMagazineFeb1899_zps51d251fb.png)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Swannanoa-GolfersMagazineDec1904_zps1ecd37b7.png)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/AshevilleCC_zps997734a3.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on December 28, 2014, 03:21:29 PM
Sven,

   thanks, I made the updates.  It seems he had a great run in PA. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Yannick Pilon on December 28, 2014, 09:22:44 PM
Ben,

Looking at your liost, I have two observations:
1. Le Club Laval-sur-le-Lac (Green course) is in Laval, Quebec, and not in France. (http://www.clsll.ca/) Our friend Ian Andrew is taking good care of it.
2. Club de Golf Royal Quebec (Royal course) is listed twice on your list. I wish the Club would be more interested in preserving Park Jr's legacy on the course, even if his input in the original design is not fully clear because of his poor health at the time it was built. The Club's history book and their website both claim Park Jr. was hired to do the design, but they also mention there is a doubt if he made the plans or not.  It seems the club was built by "M. Roddick"....
3. Summerlea Golf & Country Club was also designed by Park Jr.  Well, their original course at least, which used to be situated in Lachine, Qc, but now NLE.  They had a 27-hole course (A 9-hole, par 36 course for juniors and ladies, and an 18-hole, par 70 course).

Cheers.

YP
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Niall C on December 29, 2014, 07:57:58 AM
Ben,

You might want to add Western Gailes to your list as Park consulted there at the same time he was jointly redesigning Glasgow Gailes.

Niall
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: John Sabino on December 29, 2014, 02:21:31 PM
BC - Is the St. Albans you refer to the one in Queens? I thought it was originally designed by John Duncan Dunn and subsequently redesigned by Tillinghast? John
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on December 29, 2014, 02:41:00 PM
Niall and Yannik,

    Thanks for the info, updated. 

John,

   I will look into it.  thanks for posting
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: John Sabino on December 29, 2014, 06:55:19 PM
I looked it up in Wexler's Missing Links and it attributes the course to Willie Park, Jr. and then says it was modified by Tillinghast in 1923. Quirin's Golf Clubs of the MGA says the same thing. My source was the Brooklyn Daily Eagle on July 25, 1915 which says "the links have been laid out under the supervision of John Duncan Dunn the well-known professional golfer"
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Ian Murray on December 30, 2014, 11:37:47 AM
Re: Whitlock Golf course and Laval Sur La Lac

Would be interested what the evidence is for Whitlock and Willie Park's involvement?. The course is attributed to Albert and Charles Murray and James Black for the initial 9 and Charles Murray (perhaps Albert as well?) for the back nine in 1912 and 1913 respectively. Can find no evidence of Willie Park.

Laval Sur la Lac: It is well documented that Albert Murray laid out the initial 9 holes in 1917 (although the club does not acknowledge this) and Willie Park in 1923 remodelled the initial 9 (?) and laid out the back nine.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Lester George on December 30, 2014, 12:08:55 PM
After chasing bad leads and theories for 7 or 8 years (it seems), Joe Bausch discovered the Princess Anne CC in Virginia Beach was done by Willie Park. 

I should have called him sooner.

Lester
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Mark Steffey on December 30, 2014, 09:27:41 PM
I have been very fortunate to play Indiana CC (PA) a lot and for some reason I want to say this is Park on 9 holes and the course was finished off later mid-20th century.
Whether hearsay or whatnot, I don't have anything concrete to share as proof.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on December 30, 2014, 09:58:42 PM
John,

Tillinghast also had a part in the redesign of St. Albans Country Club, just north of where JFK Airport is now, which hosted the 1930 Met Amateur, won by Maurice McCarthy, Jr. It was consumed by suburban expansion in the 1950s.
http://nypost.com/2010/08/22/the-late-great-golf-courses-of-queens/

I wonder if Phil Young could comment?


Lester/Ian,

  Thank you.

Mark,

    I will make a note of that with a ?.  Thanks
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Joe Bausch on January 05, 2015, 01:42:31 PM
Here is another interesting one:  Happy Valley Country Club in Asheville, NC.  Looks like it did open 9-holes, as I have a 1919 article saying so.

Here is a wonderful article from 1916 (Nov 19, 1916 Asheville Citizen Sun) where Park is interviewed about the coming course:

(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/HappyValley/Nov19_1916_AshevilleCitizenSun.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 05, 2015, 03:04:22 PM
Joe:

Nice find on Park and the Kenilworth Inn course.

The Inn was built in 1917 to replace an earlier version that had burned down, but before it could open it was taken over by the Army as a hospital.  Today it remains as an apartment building in the Kenilworth section of Asheville, which at one point was a separate town.  I'd venture the course was never built, as no record of a "Happy Valley" or "Kenilworth Inn" course exists.

My guess is that this is the source of the confusion for the attribution of Park to Asheville CC/Grove Park Inn.  He listed a course in Asheville in later ads.  It is possible he did some work at Asheville CC while in town, and it is also possible his work only pertained to this project.

Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Joe Bausch on January 05, 2015, 03:23:51 PM
Joe:

Nice find on Park and the Kenilworth Inn course.

The Inn was built in 1917 to replace an earlier version that had burned down, but before it could open it was taken over by the Army as a hospital.  Today it remains as an apartment building in the Kenilworth section of Asheville, which at one point was a separate town.  I'd venture the course was never built, as no record of a "Happy Valley" or "Kenilworth Inn" course exists.

My guess is that this is the source of the confusion for the attribution of Park to Asheville CC/Grove Park Inn.  He listed a course in Asheville in later ads.  It is possible he did some work at Asheville CC while in town, and it is also possible his work only pertained to this project.

Sven

As I hinted at in my previous post, Sven, I'm pretty sure this Happy Valley CC opened at least with 9 holes as this article mentions (from the May 18, 1919 edition of the Charlotte Observer):

(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/HappyValley/May18_1919_CharlotteObserver.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 05, 2015, 03:24:17 PM
The other part of the article that bears mentioning is the list of locations where he had courses in the works:

Baltimore - Rolling Road (although his work is given a date of 1920)
Detroit (5 courses) - Meadowbrook, Pine Lake?, Cascade Hills?, Flint?, Red Run?
Minneapolis - Minneapolis GC
New Britain - this would be Shuttle Meadow
Meridian - a 9 hole course in Meridian, LA was organized in 1917
Plottsville (Pottsville?) - Schuykill CC (work is given a date of 1921)
Reidsville - assuming this is the town in NC, which didn't get a course until 1931
Boston - possible Milton-Hoosic?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on January 05, 2015, 03:30:49 PM
Detroit (5 courses) - Meadowbrook, Pine Lake?, Cascade Hills?, Flint?, Red Run?

Meadowbrook- he did 6 holes or just 6 greens.  Pine Lake-not much left my friends say.  Flint- pretty much intact, have played once. Red Run is, a one or two new holes. 

Cascade hills never heard anything about. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 05, 2015, 03:35:56 PM


As I hinted at in my previous post, Sven, I'm pretty sure this Happy Valley CC opened at least with 9 holes as this article mentions (from the May 18, 1919 edition of the Charlotte Observer):


I stand corrected.  

I should have noted that there was a course built in the late 1890's that was associated with the first iteration of the Kenilworth Inn.  It would seem that when they rebuilt the hotel, they also brought in Park to upgrade the golf facilities.  

The Inn did eventually open up around 1923, but was sold in 1930 and was turned into a psych hospital.  

I have quite a few articles discussing golf in Asheville over the years, and none of them mention Happy Valley/Kenilworth.  In addition, it wasn't mentioned at all in the Annual Guides and I have not seen any other references to it in other publications.  Perhaps it stayed under the radar, or it could be that it was only open a short period of time.  The timing of events makes you wonder who was operating the course from 1919 on.

Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 05, 2015, 03:40:26 PM

Cascade hills never heard anything about. 

You commented on my thread about it.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60174.0.html
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on January 05, 2015, 03:43:25 PM
The course that is or was Grand Rapids CC.  Not to be a nit pick. GR is 2+ hours from Metro D.  Thanks know i remember.   
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 05, 2015, 03:47:00 PM
Not to be a nit pick. GR is 2+ hours from Metro D. 

Park's quote was "at or around Detroit."  In any case, seems like he was busier in that area than we know about.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Rick Shefchik on January 05, 2015, 04:13:19 PM
Great article, Joe. The timing is really interesting in regards to Minneapolis Golf Club. Though Park never listed MGC among his designs, he says in this Nov. 19, 1916, article he has already worked on a course in Minneapolis. I have a clip from the Nov. 26, 1916, Minneapolis Morning Tribune saying:

"Willie Park, well-known golf course architect, arrived here yesterday to lay out the course of the Minneapolis golf club.

"Mr. Park went over the clubís property near St. Louis Park in the afternoon and today he will start the work of mapping the full 18-hole links. He plans to stay here at least two weeks and will supervise the early work of construction.

"It is planned to rush the construction work so that the course will be ready for play by the middle of next summer. Until the new course is ready the temporary nine-hole course at Golden Valley will be used."

Park did not return to the Twin Cities the following spring, and it fell to new head pro William Clark to finish Park's plan. What interests me here is that this is the first source I've seen in which Park personally acknowledges working on MGC (for those who still doubted MGC began as a Willie Park course.) In addition, no information had previously surfaced that Park might have visited Minneapolis prior to Nov. 25 to start planning the new course.
 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on January 05, 2015, 04:30:22 PM


As I hinted at in my previous post, Sven, I'm pretty sure this Happy Valley CC opened at least with 9 holes as this article mentions (from the May 18, 1919 edition of the Charlotte Observer):


I stand corrected.  

I should have noted that there was a course built in the late 1890's that was associated with the first iteration of the Kenilworth Inn.  It would seem that when they rebuilt the hotel, they also brought in Park to upgrade the golf facilities.  

The Inn did eventually open up around 1923, but was sold in 1930 and was turned into a psych hospital.  

I have quite a few articles discussing golf in Asheville over the years, and none of them mention Happy Valley/Kenilworth.  In addition, it wasn't mentioned at all in the Annual Guides and I have not seen any other references to it in other publications.  Perhaps it stayed under the radar, or it could be that it was only open a short period of time.  The timing of events makes you wonder who was operating the course from 1919 on.

Sven

I've seen a stick routing of the 9 hole course from the old Kenilworth Inn, as I recall it wasn't anything more than a pitch and putt. Also the military took over the hotel before it opened in 1918. My guess is the plans to expand the course were put on hold until after the military lease ran out in 1922. The Inn was only in operation for 7 years until they defaulted and it was re-purposed as a hospital.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 05, 2015, 04:34:58 PM
Ben:

Here's the old Kenilworth Inn routing plan, which for that age was longer than a pitch and putt (from the Feb. 1899 edition of Golf Magazine):

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/KenilworthPlan-GolfMagazineFeb1899_zpsccd3912e.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on January 05, 2015, 04:57:23 PM
Thanks for posting the routing Sven. Interesting choice to replay the 4th, 5th, and 6th, to complete the 9.

I wonder if the 3rd green is visible in the foreground of this image?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Kenilworth_Inn_Ashville_NC_1902_LOC4a09515v_%28cropped%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 05, 2015, 05:23:11 PM
And the 6th/9th green just visible to the left of the hotel.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on February 11, 2015, 11:42:07 PM
A nice bit from a previous thread.  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,17013.0.html



''The following excerpt is from Willie Park Jr's book - The Game of Golf.  This provides a little insight into his philosophy.


Page 200                         

very sparingly laid down, because they are likely to prove what has not inaptly been termed 'levellers'ó that is to say, the ball can be driven on to the green in two strokes by anybody, and it may be that. at such holes, if not guarded, there is little advantage in getting away a good drive, because, even if the drive is foozled, any ordinary player can put his ball on the putting-green with his second stroke. The result is, that one man who has driven a good shot may have a short approach to play, while another who has got a bad drive, or who has foozled his stroke, will only have a longer approach to play, and his mistake will thus cost him very little. Of course in this case there is an advantage in having to play the shorter approach; but, generally speaking, a mistake ought to pay a greater penalty than merely increased length of approach. If there be judiciously placed hazards, such an objection cannot hold good, as a foozled drive is practically certain to be punished. It is not possible to lay down ideal distances, because so much depends upon the nature of the ground. For instance, on a flat or on a seaside links, where the ground is hard and the turf short, a ball can be driven much further than on a hilly or heavy course, because it has a considerable run after alighting, and it is possible to get away a long second stroke owing to the ball lying clear; while on a heavy inland course, where the grass is long, the drive is all carry without any run, and owing to the interference of the grass it is not possible to get


Page 201

away along second stroke; and on a hilly course, the nature of the ground may considerably diminish the distance of the drive; consequently, on courses of the nature first mentioned the holes may be made longer than on courses such as those last indicated. It is to be kept in view, too, that the links are to be laid out for the use of a certain class of golfers, if all are beginners it is a mistake to make the course too difficult at first, as it will diminish their pleasure and possibly disgust them with the green; but as they get more expert the links can be made more difficult by lengthening the holes and similar devices. On new greens which are of a rough nature, the holes should be made shorter to begin with, until the ground is walked down, and they can afterwards be lengthened by putting the tees further back; for, of course, the putting-greens cannot be removed save at great expense.
The tees should be placed on level parts of the course, with, if anything, a slight slope upwards in the direction to be played. If there be a hillock or rising ground or any obstruction requiring to be driven over in front, the teeing-ground should be kept far enough back to enable the ball to rise over it in the course of its flight. Provision, should be made for changing the teeing-grounds frequently, to prevent the turf on them being worn out, and to permit ground previously used to recover.
The selection of putting greens is a much more





Page 202           

difficult matter. The variety of places on which they can be formed is infinite. They may be on the level course, or in a natural hollow or basin, provided it be sufficiently large and shallow, or they may be placed on the tops of large Ďtables.í  All of these are good positions, and the more variety that can be introduced the better. The putting-greens should be as large as possible; and while the ground should be comparatively level, it is not desirable that it should be perfectly flat like a billiard-table, but should rather be of a slightly undulating character.  It is absolutely essential that a putting-green be firm and smooth, and the turf close and short, so that the ball will roll on it and not Ďbobble' or Jump, as it certainly will if the turf be brushy and uneven. If natural putting-greens cannot be made on the course as it stands, then they must be dug up and laid with suitable turf; but this should only be done as a last resource. It is a very bad piece of ground that will not improve sufficiently to make a fairly good putting-green, under proper care, and with due cutting and rolling and top-dressing.  A strong attempt should always be made to bring the natural turf into condition before resorting to the lifting and turfing of a putting-green. Many will be surprised to find the improvement that can be effected on any ordinary turf with proper treatment and care. If large enough putting-greens cannot be made at any particular parts of the course, it may be necessary to have relief


Page 203

putting-greens on to which the hole can be changed when the regular greens show signs of tear and wear. The putting-greens and teeing-grounds should, as previously pointed out, be in proximity to one another.
With regard to hazards, I would begin by stating that there should not be any hazard out of which the ball cannot be extricated at the loss of one stroke, and that all hazards should be visible to the golfer when he stands at his ball before playing his stroke. A bunker that is not visible to the player is always more or less of a 'trap.' Sand bunkers are undoubtedly the most legitimate hazards. When there are natural bunkers, it may be possible to place the holes so that these can be made use of, but otherwise they must be formed, and in all cases they ought to be big enough and deep enough and broad enough to prevent the possibility of a ball either rolling through or jumping over. It should not be possible for a ball to lie in such a position in a bunker that a stroke at it cannot be made so as to play the ball out in one direction or another, and the corners should not therefore be sharp and angular, but rather rounded off. The hazard should be sharply defined, so that there can be no doubt as to whether or not a ball lies in it. When bunkers are made, it is very usual to form the soil taken out into a cop in front, or behind, and sometimes in the middle. When such a thing is done, the cop should not be made high but rather broad and it should not have steep



Page 204
                         
sides.   Among various kinds of hazards are to be found walls, trees, water, fences and hedges, whins, etc.  Trees are never a fair hazard if at all near the line of play, as a well-hit shot may be completely spoi1ed by catching in the branches. An occasional wall or fence or stream of water or pond to be crossed cannot always be avoided, but I do not recommend the making of such hazards merely as hazards.
The placing of hazards is a matter of great difficulty, and their positions should be such that a golfer who is playing a good game should never visit them. The positions should be varied. There should, for example, be at certain holes hazards that must be carried, and should be carried, from the tee; these should be placed at such distances from the teeing-grounds that, while a well-hit shot will carry them, a topped or half-topped stroke will get in. At other holes the hazards should be placed so as to punish badly played second strokes; at others, again, the hazards should guard the putting-greens in front, and there may also be some hazards placed behind the greens.  In neither of these cases should the hazards be too near the green; in the former it should be possible to loft well over the hazard, and yet lie near the hole, and in the latter it should only be a ball much too strongly played that is punished. There is a, great cry nowadays that every hole should have a hazard in front requiring to be lofted over, but I think it is possible to carry a system of this kind too


Page 205

far. It ties players down to pitching all their approaches instead of making them exercise their judgment as to whether the ball should be lofted or run up. No golfer will deny that there should be hazards in front of some holes, but I think that at others there should be a clear road, with hazards judiciously placed on either side to punish wild shots. To loft a ball with an iron is comparatively easy to any player except an absolute novice, but it is not so easy to keep to the proper course. Erratic play should always meet with punishment, and I would counsel hazards being laid down on each side, not of the putting-greens alone, but also of the line to the hole, to catch pulled or sliced balls. I know that a bunker on the line of play, and into which a good stroke may get, is frequently considered a trap; but this is an opinion which I cannot altogether endorse,  if the bunker is visible to the player, and there is sufficient room to avoid it, it cannot properly be called a trap. Golf as a game of skill requires that a player should be able to place his ball; and if he sees the hazard, and knows there is the danger of getting in, the proper thing for him to do is to drive his ball to one side or other of the difficulty.
Although blind holes (i.e. holes at which the player does not see the flag) are objectionable, they cannot always be dispensed with; but an endeavor should be made to place the hole in such a, position that it can be seen in playing the approach. Having to play.''

* Please note, all bold and underlined words and phrases were done by Forse Design to highlight a certain portion of the excerpt and are not found in the original manuscript.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Ryan Taylor on February 12, 2015, 11:08:54 AM
Detroit (5 courses) - Meadowbrook, Pine Lake?, Cascade Hills?, Flint?, Red Run?

Meadowbrook- he did 6 holes or just 6 greens.  Pine Lake-not much left my friends say.  Flint- pretty much intact, have played once. Red Run is, a one or two new holes.  


Red Run GC was originally designed in 1914 by Bendelow and redesigned in 1916 by Park, Jr. Red Run has some fantastic false fronts that are on display when conditions are firm and fast - #1, #3, #7, #12, #14, #16 and #18.

Mr. Park, Jr. would hardly recognize Red Run, Pine Lake and Meadowbrook due to overplanting. Park, Jr. courses in particular seem to be overplanted more than most. Maybe we should investigate the reasons why?? One theory - because of the subtle nature of his designs superintendents / course committee members are more likely to rely on trees for defense. If a Park, Jr. golf course is not maintained firm and fast the brilliance is hard to experience and see.

I found this quote from The Game of Golf relevant, "Trees are never a fair hazard if at all near the line of play, as a well-hit shot may be completely spoiled by catching in the branches. An occasional wall or fence or stream of water or pond to be crossed cannot always be avoided, but I do not recommend the making of such hazards merely as hazards." - Willie Park, Jr.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on February 14, 2015, 09:06:55 PM
Mr. Park, Jr. would hardly recognize Red Run, Pine Lake and Meadowbrook due to overplanting. Park, Jr. courses in particular seem to be overplanted more than most. Maybe we should investigate the reasons why?? One theory - because of the subtle nature of his designs superintendents / course committee members are more likely to rely on trees for defense. If a Park, Jr. golf course is not maintained firm and fast the brilliance is hard to experience and see.

  Very good theory.  Will have to look further into this.  It is rather hard to maint. greens Firm when greens are running at 11-12 and they are surrounded by trees.  It would be great for firmness to be the defense rather than trees.  I agree completely with your last sentence. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on February 28, 2015, 11:00:11 AM
One more for the list.

John Jacob Astor's private course in Rhinebeck, NY (Aug. 20, 1895 Los Angeles Herald).

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/John%20Jacob%20Astor%20-%20LA%20Herald%20Aug.%2012%201895_zpsrkyw9rbb.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Mark Steffey on March 01, 2015, 12:22:50 PM

Mark,

    I will make a note of that with a ?.  Thanks

Ben,

Park did lay out 9h at Indiana, PA - 6 of which remain today.  #s 5, 9 & 11 are as laid out by Park designed them.  the 10th was shortened ~30yds when a new shorter tee was created to build a putting green.  #12 had a new green built due to drainage issues and the tee was moved up when a new hole was put in behind it.  the 13th green was tightened to add greenside bunkers.  (thanks for ICC head pro Daniel Braun for this)

the holes that remain true to form are pretty neat.  5 & 11 are par 5s and 9 is a short 4 par.  each green is a treat to putt.  5 has two levels separated by a spine that runs right down the middle front to back.  11 had a pimple on the left side that has to be traveled.  and 9 has so much going on there is really no straight putt no matter how close one is.  i have seen many putts there roll off the front too with people putting from the back or the sides of the green.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: BCowan on March 01, 2015, 01:18:46 PM
Thanks Mark, I updated it and made notes

Sven,

   Is John Jacob Astor's course NLE? 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on March 02, 2015, 08:06:16 PM

I have also seen passing references to Park having worked at Canoe Brook, Cherry Valley and Goshen.  Nothing concrete enough to look into further.


Some followup on Canoe Brook.  The North course dates back to 1902, and was significantly remodeled by Travis around 1916.  In the early 20's the club considered purchasing adjacent land for a new 18 hole course, and it was here that Park was involved.  My guess is that he was consulted on the suitability of the new land, and may have even done a routing.

For whatever reason, the club did not proceed with the new project until a few years later, at which point Alison was hired to design the South course (perhaps Park was unavailable at this point).  All of the greens on the South course were subsequently remodeled by Maj. R. A. Jones of Baltusrol.

So any design credit for Park at Canoe Brook would be "Design Only," if even that.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on May 13, 2015, 05:19:51 PM
May 1923 - Golf Illustrated

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Willie%20Park%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20May%201923_zps674dyrp3.png)

Ocean City and Pemberbrook (known by another name?) are news to me.  This also confirms Park's work in Lynchburg, a course he did a plan for but the project was completed by Fred Findlay later on.

Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on May 13, 2015, 06:29:39 PM
Sven,

Ocean City is today's Greate  Bay.  Mostly original Park to this day.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: GLawson on May 14, 2015, 09:07:48 AM
Ben,

I didn't see Formby in the UK on your list.

Best,
Gordon
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on May 14, 2015, 09:20:18 AM
Mr Lawson,

   Thanks, I updated.  

http://www.formbygolfclub.co.uk/formby-golf-club-experience/course-history-championship-links-formby-golf-club/


Sven,

   I put Canoe Brook North in with possible routing, thanks
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on October 03, 2015, 12:25:54 PM
''Metacomet in RI is another Ross design that is actually the work of Willie Park-Jr''- TMac


''As for Metacomet, that's as pure a Ross as you'll find; I have the 1921 routing plan to prove it. I'm curous what Park's involvement might have been. I know some claim that other courses in R.I. owe their heritage elsewhere.''- Brad Klein

''Park advertised in the major golf magazines of the day that he designed Metacomet. He also listed it on a pamphlet of golf courses he designed (published in 1922-23). Park noted he did not oversee Metcomet's construction and it appears he was often reliant on others (like O.Smith and R.White) to construct his golf courses. In Rhode Island Ross (or the Ross organization) would have been a natural choice, perhaps they collaborated. Robert White is often credited for Shorehaven, but it was designed by Park''- T Mac

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,776.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,776.0.html)


Has anyone played Metacomet?  thoughts?  It says that the club was founded in 1921.  Could of Willie designed it and Ross renovated a few holes? 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on October 05, 2015, 10:45:10 AM
Ben,


I have played Metacomet in Rhode Island and it definitely feels like a Ross course.  If you look in the Compilation of Routing Maps thread there is a Donald Ross layout dated 1925 for Metacomet.  Look under the reply numbered 469.


 I also have a Willie Park Jr. advertisement prior to 1925 that lists Metacomet as a Willie Park Jr. course.  Metacomet was founded in 1901, so they had a golf course for many years before Ross showed up.


As for Robert White at Shorehaven, I found an article in Golf Illustrated-October 1925 titled "Shorehaven-A Perfect Course in Record Time".  There is a four or five page story on the building of Shorehaven.  The article never mentions Willie Park Jr., but does include Robert White.  I am having trouble accessing articles on SEGL right now, otherwise I would post it for you.


I have seen several instances where New Canaan CC in Connecticut claims Willie Park Jr. designed nine holes for their club.  I didn't see New Canaan on your list on the first page.  I have always wondered what year Willie Park Jr. was at New Canaan?


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on October 05, 2015, 10:49:15 AM
One of the things that makes nailing down Park's US work difficult is that a number of his courses were designed prior to WWI and built in the years after the war, often by others but based on Park's plans.   Off the top of my head in the PA and NJ area those include Schuylkill, Ashbourne (NLE), Greate Bay (formerly Ocean City), and Philmont North.

My buddy Joe Bausch is largely responsible for finding all of the above, often to the great surprise of the various clubs.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on October 27, 2015, 09:13:08 AM
Ben,


Regarding Metacomet, I recently looked at the Tufts Archive Online Exhibit, which includes all of the Donald Ross field drawings for Metacomet and a handwritten letter to the club. 


In the letter to the club, Ross mentions that he would use some of the greens "presently in use" and for that reason did not include working plans for a few of the green sites.


After reading the diagrams, it appears several of the holes were designed over a pre-existing golf course.  On the 5th hole diagram you can see the location of the present number 1 tee.  If you read the 10th hole diagram, you will notice Ross used the present number 1 green, leaving the back 60' as it is, with modifications to the front portion of the green.  If you connect the dots (old 1st tee, old 1st green) you can get a sense of how the old first hole played before this Ross design. 


There are many references in these plans to present bunkers, present tees and present greens.  Ross made many modifications to the golf course, but did mention using the present 13th, 15th and 16th greens. Coincidentally, these are the only holes that do not have additional green diagrams to accompany the hole diagram.


Neither the letter or individual plans are dated so I can not be sure if these plans are relating to reconstruction of an earlier Ross design or to a course that existed before Ross ever showed up on the property? If the plans are related to an earlier Willie Park Jr. design, there may still be some remnants of his course at Metacomet.



I also realized Country Club of New Canaan is on your list of Park courses. I am still curious which year Willie Park Jr. built nine holes for New Canaan?


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Pete Blaisdell on October 28, 2015, 08:48:28 AM
Ben


  John Cain and Newport (NH) Golf Club are one and the same.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on November 03, 2015, 08:11:13 AM
Thanks for the posts.  I believe i made updates.  Joe Bausch, if you have any more photo tours I'm missing let me know. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on November 03, 2015, 09:53:46 AM
Ben


I note you list Biggar as one of Park's courses in Scotland. I'd be interested to know what your source is as I think it was a David Adams design.


Niall
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on November 03, 2015, 10:30:42 AM
http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/willie-park-jr.html (http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/willie-park-jr.html)

Niall,

   Used this as a base.  Then I received info from other GCA Posters.  Mungo was nice enough to reach out to me today and is going to send ur side of the pond course listings.  The list I'm sure is far from accurate to the T.  It's a work in progress. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on November 03, 2015, 10:41:07 AM
Ben


It looks to me that Park might have done the original course. According to club website the course moved a couple of times and indeed I think it was a nine holer up until 30 or 40 years ago (as usual, could be wrong). Pretty sure Adams did the original nine in the last move.


Look forward what Mungo has.


Niall
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on December 12, 2015, 12:05:17 AM
Ben,

I came across info today where it appears the architect responsible for the current state of all 3 courses at Gullane was likely Willie Park Jr. 

The original 1884 18 hole course that existed prior to #2 was considerably different than #1 of today and by the time #3 was finished in 1910, also attributed to Park Jr, the #1 course was almost exactly as today.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on December 16, 2015, 05:26:49 PM
Ben


I recently came across an article from 1920 discussing 10 clubs in Canada that were associated with Willie Park Jr.  According to the article, Park had recently renovated and brought the courses up to date or built entirely new layouts for these clubs:


1.  Mount Bruno C.C. near Montreal
2.  Beaconsfield C.C. of Montreal
3.  Royal Montreal Golf Club
4.  St. Ann's near Montreal
5.  Whetlock C.C. of Halifax
6.  Winnipeg C.C.
7.  Ottawa C.C.
8.  Toronto C.C.
9.  Abitibi C.C.
10. Lake Minotaur C.C.


My knowledge of courses in Canada is very limited.   I see several of the courses in this article are already on your list, but there are a few not included.  I am not sure if these courses go by a different name today or if they no longer exist?


I also see your listing of Whitlock C.C. had some questions associated with it.  Maybe this listing for Whetlock in Halifax will help? 


Here is a link to the article (2nd column):


http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/highlight-for-xml?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ffultonhistory.com%2FNewspapers%25206%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%25201920%2520Mar-%2520Apr%2520Grayscale%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%25201920%2520Marl-%2520Apr%2520Grayscale%2520-%25201145.pdf&xml=http%3A%2F%2Ffultonhistory.com%2FdtSearch%2Fdtisapi6.dll%3Fcmd%3Dgetpdfhits%26u%3D4705463%26DocId%3D11838043%26Index%3DZ%253a%255cIndex%2520I%252dE%252dV%26HitCount%3D9%26hits%3D76%2B20e%2B254%2B255%2B427%2B442%2B47d%2B502%2Bede%2B%26SearchForm%3D%252fFulton%255fNew%255fform%252ehtml%26.pdf&openFirstHlPage=false


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Yannick Pilon on December 20, 2015, 10:26:36 AM
I can't help but notice that Islesmere GC in Montreal has been removed from the list....


What is the reasoning behind this? I can't seem to find anything on that in the thread. Both Ian Andrew and I have woked there in the past and i beleive Ian had some strong evidence confirming the course has been designed by Park....


YP
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on December 20, 2015, 10:43:57 AM
Yannick and rest,

   I'll have to get back to you on that. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on December 20, 2015, 10:31:52 PM
Ben,


It appears that Willie Park did visit Shorehaven GC in East Norwalk, CT.  This article mentions Robert White laid out the Shorehaven GC course.  It goes on to say: "The holes are all laid out and are very much along the same line as those laid out by the expert Willie Park, who went over the course a year ago, but who has been incapicated since because of illness." 


Here is a link to the article from December 25, 1923:


https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1898&dat=19231225&id=kI0pAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vW0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1929,4416499&hl=en (https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1898&dat=19231225&id=kI0pAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vW0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1929,4416499&hl=en)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on December 23, 2015, 07:10:15 PM
I just stumbled on this thread and forgive me for not reading all the posts. It's interesting and I'll get to it eventually.


As far as Tumble Brook in Bloomfield, Conn., which is listed as a 9-hole Park course, I think the first 18 was his design. In the Hartford Courant of Nov. 26, 1922, is a detailed story on the building of Tumble Brook including a photo of Park on site. The course is listed as 18 holes and gives yardages for each.The second  nine is officially listed as an Orrin Smith-William Mitchell design. Smith, from Connecticut, worked for Park and was construction superintendent for the nearby Shuttle Meadow, a Park design, in about 1916. The newspaper accounts of Tumble Brook that I have seen do not, as far as I can recall, list Smith as being on site. However, when you play the original 18 in order the yardages match up to the Hartford Courant article. (There is a third nine designed by George Fazio.) I also think the hole styles and especially the greens of the second 9 match Park's work. Some alterations have taken place over the years that have messed up one  hole, a par-4, and improved another that was originally and uphill, 90-degree dogleg par-4. If I can remember how to post articles, I'll do that here.

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 23, 2015, 07:24:27 PM
I just stumbled on this thread and forgive me for not reading all the posts. It's interesting and I'll get to it eventually.


As far as Tumble Brook in Bloomfield, Conn., which is listed as a 9-hole Park course, I think the first 18 was his design. In the Hartford Courant of Nov. 26, 1922, is a detailed story on the building of Tumble Brook including a photo of Park on site. The course is listed as 18 holes and gives yardages for each.The second  nine is officially listed as an Orrin Smith-William Mitchell design. Smith, from Connecticut, worked for Park and was construction superintendent for the nearby Shuttle Meadow, a Park design, in about 1916. The newspaper accounts of Tumble Brook that I have seen do not, as far as I can recall, list Smith as being on site. However, when you play the original 18 in order the yardages match up to the Hartford Courant article. (There is a third nine designed by George Fazio.) I also think the hole styles and especially the greens of the second 9 match Park's work. Some alterations have taken place over the years that have messed up one  hole, a par-4, and improved another that was originally and uphill, 90-degree dogleg par-4. If I can remember how to post articles, I'll do that here.


Anthony:


Am I reading this right that you think the second half of Park's plan was built years later?


What's your thought as to when the second 9 holes were actually constructed?  The course is noted as having only 9 holes until up around 1931.


Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on December 23, 2015, 07:37:59 PM
Right, sorry for the confusion. I think the second nine was built by Orrin Smith and William Mitchell. Construction, according to a Hartford Courant article announcing the news holes, did not begin until 1947. A 1934 aerial of the course shows only nine holes.






Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on December 23, 2015, 07:53:30 PM
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w243/ARAYNORFAN/Park%20Tumble%20Brook.jpg) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/ARAYNORFAN/media/Park%20Tumble%20Brook.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on December 23, 2015, 07:58:22 PM
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w243/ARAYNORFAN/Tumblebrook%20Smith_1.jpg) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/ARAYNORFAN/media/Tumblebrook%20Smith_1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on December 23, 2015, 08:01:44 PM

Tumble Brook 1934. The dogleg par-4 in the center of the image is the first hole, followed by a par-3 and then a par-5.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w243/ARAYNORFAN/Tumble%20Brook%2034.png) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/ARAYNORFAN/media/Tumble%20Brook%2034.png.html)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on December 24, 2015, 09:44:49 AM
1951 Tumble Brook. I was wrong in the earlier post. Not all the back-9 holes line up to the yardages given in the 1922  Hartford Courant article, but many do. The greens, though, match those on the front 9.


(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w243/ARAYNORFAN/Tumble%20Brook%201951.jpg) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/ARAYNORFAN/media/Tumble%20Brook%201951.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on December 24, 2015, 12:11:54 PM
Did Willie Park Jr. do work on Newport Country Club in 1895 to get it ready for the first USGA championships?

I ask because on June 16, 1895, the New York Sun reported;

There is, too, a new 18-hole course to be opened, on which Park is to work for a fortnight or more in July designing intricate hazards and puzzling bunkers.

That same month, on June 25th the New York Times reported;

The Executive Committee of the Newport Country Club has decided to begin at once the laying out of a golf course for the Championship contests.   They do not take place till October,  but it was thought desirable to have work commenced at once, and a contractor has already been engaged.  It is thought to have the course a very stiff one, and some peculiar bunkers are to be constructed.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: ANTHONYPIOPPI on December 24, 2015, 12:20:41 PM
The course was 9-holes when the Am and U.S. Open were played on it. I think H.H. Barker came in and did work later on.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on December 24, 2015, 12:28:00 PM
Anthony,

Yes, it was definitely only 9 holes but I'm wondering if Park toughened up the course in some manner for the 1895 Championships.

On October 10th, 1895, the Chicago Tribune reported;

The Newport links has now been completed with an entire circuit of roughly two miles.  The distances between the holes vary from 285 yards to 485 yards.   The course is plentifully besprinkled with hazards, natural and artificial, and will take some far and sure driving.

Given that the Willie Davis nine-hole course was originally built in 1893, I'm wondering if this wasn't a longer, or perhaps modified derivative put in place for the championship?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 24, 2015, 12:54:37 PM
The course was 9-holes when the Am and U.S. Open were played on it. I think H.H. Barker came in and did work later on.


Here's the first info I have on the course having 18 holes.  Well before Barker, and supposedly attributed to Davis.

Aug. 1899 Golf Magazine -

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Newport%20-%20Golf%20Magazine%20Aug.%201899_zps62vmqjdg.png)




Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Anthony Gholz on December 28, 2015, 11:03:28 AM
Ben:


This article from the Detroit Free Press 1938 covers Pine Lake's Automobile Club beginnings.  It clearly indicates that Park did the first 7 holes and maybe 9, "Ö but it included none of the holes that so plague present golfersÖ."  Is this another Meadowbrook, with WP doing six and which are going to remain after the 2016 rebuild?  Or do you have subsequent info? 


Sounds to me that maybe the PL members should stop playing in "The Willie."


Tony


Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on December 28, 2015, 11:10:08 AM
Tony and others,

   I haven't fired up the laptop due to being out of town.  Much easier to search.  Tony, great find.  Can u paste the link of the article onto this thread?   I don't have any info other then verbally that there is basically no Park jr left at Pine Lakes.  Hopefully a Park Jr society will form in the near future  ;)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Anthony Gholz on December 28, 2015, 02:51:47 PM
Ben:


My computer talent is negligible obviously.  Trying again:


(http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah285/agholz/Pine%20Lake%20DFP%20Sun%20Jul%2031938_zpswt1yytyu.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on December 29, 2015, 05:48:07 AM
You can put Park down for designing a course at Versailles and another two in Vienna, one of which was private. I also have a note of him designing a course in England at Matlock Baths. According to the Missing Links website the course ceased to exist c.1920 and probably was only a 9 holer.


All of the above courses were laid out 1900/1901.


Niall
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on December 29, 2015, 09:36:52 PM
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w243/ARAYNORFAN/Park%20Tumble%20Brook.jpg) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/ARAYNORFAN/media/Park%20Tumble%20Brook.jpg.html)

Anthony,

   Sorry, having trouble reading this.  You are sure Park Jr did the Red 9 at Tumble Brook Country Club?  Smith did the 2nd 9? 

MCirba,

I'm going to have to go through Gullane thread. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on December 29, 2015, 09:58:03 PM
Ben,


Here is a blown up version of the article.  The first column continues to the second page as does the second column.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/B6CD7CD7-54B9-492B-91B2-5C9FF0E32123_zpskapa4hte.png)
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/4F73F4A1-72E4-486D-9739-6623950F31F2_zpsypmaenrl.png)


(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/07732589-8D6D-43F5-BE57-81D8A79B81D5_zpsw2pq9ykn.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on December 29, 2015, 10:40:27 PM
Ben


I recently came across an article from 1920 discussing 10 clubs in Canada that were associated with Willie Park Jr.  According to the article, Park had recently renovated and brought the courses up to date or built entirely new layouts for these clubs:


1.  Mount Bruno C.C. near Montreal
2.  Beaconsfield C.C. of Montreal
3.  Royal Montreal Golf Club
4.  St. Ann's near Montreal
5.  Whetlock C.C. of Halifax
6.  Winnipeg C.C.
7.  Ottawa C.C.
8.  Toronto C.C.
9.  Abitibi C.C.
10. Lake Minotaur C.C.


My knowledge of courses in Canada is very limited.   I see several of the courses in this article are already on your list, but there are a few not included.  I am not sure if these courses go by a different name today or if they no longer exist?


I also see your listing of Whitlock C.C. had some questions associated with it.  Maybe this listing for Whetlock in Halifax will help? 


Here is a link to the article (2nd column):


http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/highlight-for-xml?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ffultonhistory.com%2FNewspapers%25206%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%25201920%2520Mar-%2520Apr%2520Grayscale%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%25201920%2520Marl-%2520Apr%2520Grayscale%2520-%25201145.pdf&xml=http%3A%2F%2Ffultonhistory.com%2FdtSearch%2Fdtisapi6.dll%3Fcmd%3Dgetpdfhits%26u%3D4705463%26DocId%3D11838043%26Index%3DZ%253a%255cIndex%2520I%252dE%252dV%26HitCount%3D9%26hits%3D76%2B20e%2B254%2B255%2B427%2B442%2B47d%2B502%2Bede%2B%26SearchForm%3D%252fFulton%255fNew%255fform%252ehtml%26.pdf&openFirstHlPage=false (http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/highlight-for-xml?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ffultonhistory.com%2FNewspapers%25206%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%25201920%2520Mar-%2520Apr%2520Grayscale%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%25201920%2520Marl-%2520Apr%2520Grayscale%2520-%25201145.pdf&xml=http%3A%2F%2Ffultonhistory.com%2FdtSearch%2Fdtisapi6.dll%3Fcmd%3Dgetpdfhits%26u%3D4705463%26DocId%3D11838043%26Index%3DZ%253a%255cIndex%2520I%252dE%252dV%26HitCount%3D9%26hits%3D76%2B20e%2B254%2B255%2B427%2B442%2B47d%2B502%2Bede%2B%26SearchForm%3D%252fFulton%255fNew%255fform%252ehtml%26.pdf&openFirstHlPage=false)


Bret

Abitibi CC
Lake Minotauc(l) CC
Bowness G.C.
Kentvile G.C (NS)
Sennevill CC (QC)

Bret,

   Ian Andrew said he didn't know about these courses as to Park Jr's involvement. I'll go through ur link. Some can be hard to read.  Does the article in which you blew up confer Anthony's suspicion that Smith built Park's plan on 2nd 9? 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on December 30, 2015, 10:12:56 AM
Ben,


I think this article in 1922 confirms that Willie Park Jr. designed an 18 hole layout for Tumble Brook.  I am not 100% sure whether Orrin Smith built Parks holes or designed some of his own. 


I would need to see Willie Park's 18 hole layout to confirm this.  Orrin Smith started his GCA career with Park, so it wouldn't be that far fetched.  I have never been to Tumble Brook, so Anthony would certainly know more about this course than I do.


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Anthony Gholz on December 30, 2015, 05:43:34 PM
Ben:


This is an enlargement of the part of the Free press article that says "none of the holes that so plague present golfers.  I have to review the Tumbleweed article closer.


BTW I've had a difficult time getting on gca today so this is the first time I saw your post.
Tony




(http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah285/agholz/Pine%20Lake%20DFP%207338_zpsp8jc3pmh.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 31, 2015, 12:26:53 PM
Two more for the list:


La Boulle course (France)
Lombardzide (Ostend, Belgium)


Both cited in an Oct. 10, 1916 Asheville Citizen-Times article.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 10, 2016, 12:56:46 PM
Anthony,

Yes, it was definitely only 9 holes but I'm wondering if Park toughened up the course in some manner for the 1895 Championships.

On October 10th, 1895, the Chicago Tribune reported;

The Newport links has now been completed with an entire circuit of roughly two miles.  The distances between the holes vary from 285 yards to 485 yards.   The course is plentifully besprinkled with hazards, natural and artificial, and will take some far and sure driving.

Given that the Willie Davis nine-hole course was originally built in 1893, I'm wondering if this wasn't a longer, or perhaps modified derivative put in place for the championship?


Mike,


  I recently came across an article from The Sun dated July 22, 1895.  The article discusses the Newport Golf Club prior to the first U.S. Open/Amateur.  Willie Davis had been working on the new course at Newport for a few months prior to Park's arrival.  It sounds like Park was only in town to play a match against Davis.  Willie Park praised the new course and then moved on to Watch Hill to finish his design at the Misquamicut Club.  Here is the entire article, found in Column 1:


http://tinyurl.com/hygto68 (http://tinyurl.com/hygto68)


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on January 11, 2016, 10:30:39 AM
Bret,

Thanks for sharing that terrific article that answers my questions.   Much obliged!

All,

I was reading "The Confidential Guide - Vol 1" last night and couldn't help but note how many of Park Jr.'s courses in GB&I were highly rated.   His body of work is quite astounding.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on January 11, 2016, 10:52:39 AM
You can put Park down for designing a course at Versailles and another two in Vienna, one of which was private. I also have a note of him designing a course in England at Matlock Baths. According to the Missing Links website the course ceased to exist c.1920 and probably was only a 9 holer.


All of the above courses were laid out 1900/1901.


Niall


Ben


Se above. Can I suggest it might be worth putting the two courses at Vienna and the course at Versaillies on the list so that if anyone knows anything more about them they can chip in ?


Niall
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 11, 2016, 11:24:16 AM
Bret and Mike:


There's a July 14, 1895 New York Sun article that precedes the one linked to by Bret.  It discusses how members of Newport requested Park to visit their course.  It doesn't go into any detail as to whether or not he was to suggest any changes, but the note is contained in a paragraph discussing how he had laid out new courses and given suggestions on existing ones.


With Mike's article, there's enough smoke to think he was at least brought in to offer his thoughts on the course.


Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on January 12, 2016, 07:51:18 AM
Sven,

Thanks for the additional information but I can't find the article at any of the usual sources. Would you be so kind as to post it here? Thanks!
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on January 12, 2016, 10:11:32 AM
I had hoped to attach my current list, which has benefited from the research carried out by many of you, Cowan, Macpherson, Pioppi, Nilsen, Bausch, Cirba, Lawrence et al. Sadly it is not accepted - no doubt I am doing something wrong. I have tried as a .doc and a .pdf - if anyone has any tips, i am happy to post it.

The list started with a 'flyer' that we came from the family archive; it was prepared in about 1922, and re-published (p 130) by John Adams in The Parks of Musselburgh, which I constantly refer to for its excellent refs and bibliography. There are one or two errors, and things have moved on in terms of understanding what WP jnr was up to and when. I hope that I shall be able to publish something soon. Unfortunately the 'day job' gets in the way, although I contribute fairly regularly to Through The Green. I hope in time to redress (as impartially as I am able) the imbalance between St Andrews and Musselburgh which has continued (mistakenly) for so long. There was so much more happening in Musselburgh around the 1850 to 1910 era. Unlike St A, it didn't have anywhere to expand, and so decline was inevitable. As a result many Musseburgh clubmakers and designers took the game from Musselburgh to the rest of the world. Argentina, New Zealand, South Africa, Japan, as well as Europe, the USA and Canada all benefited from that emigration, with Musselburgh golfers among their earliest pioneers. Royal County Down is a good example - first 9 holes by George Baillie (Musselburgh). Second nine by T Morris Snr (St Andrews), who generously praised Baillie's work. It is possible that Bailie worked there with Walter Dunn Day(Musselburgh), whose son became the first pro there and who had worked with him as designer of the first Royal Belfast.

. . . . any thoughts on how to attach the list gratefully received!

Best regards,

Mungo Park
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on January 12, 2016, 10:19:16 AM
Mungo,

   You can always email me the PDF and I would be happy to re-type the text or you can copy and paste it into an email.  Good to hear from you.  I sent you an email as well.  Just received this list, I'll get working on it tonight. 

Happy New Year,

Ben

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on January 12, 2016, 10:41:38 AM
Thanks Ben - e-mail sent, with list if you wouldn't mind posting it.

Mungo
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on January 12, 2016, 11:02:50 AM
Updated to page 9
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on January 12, 2016, 11:40:21 AM
I have just heard back from Mike Morrison, who has written a great book (The Links on the Hills) on golf at Gog Magog, and includes in his research the University golf club. He is fairly sure that Willie was referring to Gog Magog which he visited in 1902. He says, "To date, I have found no references to Willie Park undertaking any work at Coldham Common (1876-1901) or Whitwell Hill (1901-1914), the two past university courses in Cambridge."

So that's one steaming emoji eliminated!

Mungo
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on January 12, 2016, 12:54:44 PM
Ben


Re Glasgow Golf Club and courses called Gailes down in Ayrshire. Glasgow GC has two courses, one in Glasgow called Killermont and another down in Ayrshire called Glasgow Gailes. Park redesigned Glasgow Gailes along with the greenkeeper Tulloch in 1912. He also consulted at Western Gailes which is a separate club that is situated adjacent to the Glasgow Gailes course.


Niall
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on January 12, 2016, 01:55:11 PM
Niall,
My confusion - thanks for clarifying. I hope that with everyone's combined research power, it will be possible to pin these down and agree a definitive (?) list. I know WP's involvement is a matter of degree in many cases. My personal criterion for inclusion is to find out if WP had any involvement with a course, as my interest is in the scope and breadth of his career. I recognise that others might want to know more about design and construction details, and their development, but the 'long' list should be a good start point, with many GCA contributors providing the more specific detail and articles that they seem to ferret out so ably, particularly in the USA.

FYI it is 130 years this year since WP designed his first course, Innerleithen. 9 holes in the borders between Peebles and Selkirk - Sunningdale not quite his first inland course. . .

Mungo
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on January 12, 2016, 02:19:43 PM
I think I may have come upon another one, a private course Park Jr. laid out for John Jacob Astor in 1895 at Rhinecliff, NY.   Apologies if this has been previously identified under a different name.

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1702/24258214851_fa562fcd99_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 12, 2016, 02:33:50 PM
Mike:


Astor's course was noted in post #102, but I had a different article on it.


What's the citation for the article you posted?


Sven

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on January 12, 2016, 02:45:08 PM
Sven,

Sorry, didn't see your prior mention.  The article I posted is from the NY Sun, May 23rd 1895.

I also came across the article you mentioned re: Newport on July 14th of that year.   The salient part re: architectural matters is reproduced below;

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1590/24258634291_337d40d09f.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on January 12, 2016, 03:23:26 PM
Mungo mentioned the important of Musselburgh in the development of the game but it also seems to have a direct impact on the inception and growth of the game in America, particularly the connection of Robert Lockhart to both Willie Park Sr. and Jr. as the following article from the Hastings on Hudson News points out;

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1689/24341552755_0571ae47e2_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on January 12, 2016, 08:40:29 PM
Mike, Sven
Great additions - John Adams mentions Lockhart (p47) and the Astor connection. He says that "Willie stayed a week with J J Astor and his wife at Rhyncliffe, played over their private course and gave lessons to them." but your Hastings on Hudson News piece makes it pretty clear that 'he laid out the links', and seems to have taken some pride in the work, which would then have been fairly rudimentary routing and pegging, I imagine. He did the same for the Webbs  (Mrs Webb was a Vanderbilt). Adams also says that "on the 20th February he set out for America at the invitation of Mr Harry Talmadge, and stayed there until the end of July". Apparently the Lockhart connection was that he had been a customer, and Willie contacted him on arrival. "Lockhart, an old Dunfermline man, who had two sons at Loretto School in Musselburgh, and had several sets of clubs brought to America by the boys." (Adams) He seems to have been passed round the wealthy of New York as a celebrity, and not to have been over-awed. He seems to have had great self belief at that time - I suspect Huntercombe dented that belief considerably, which makes his 1916 - 1923 reinvention and the quality of his US work even more remarkable.

Thanks for such an energetic and interesting initiation to the wealth of GCA knowledge.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 14, 2016, 09:01:38 AM
Mungo,


I see you had a question mark next to Highland Golf and Country Club in Indianapolis, Indiana. 
This article discusses the new course at Miami (noted by Sven earlier), but also mentions Willie Park Jr. having just completed a course for Highand Golf and C.C. in Indianapolis.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/AB9DB0D6-FCE6-455C-88A6-18DD1013D4E3.png_zpsvujr1nat.jpeg)


Willie Park Jr. also listed this course in one of his advertisement from the 20's.


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 14, 2016, 09:46:54 AM
Here is an article from 1896 that notes Willie Park had just arrived in America. The article mentions that one of Park's engagements in this country is to look over the new course to be laid out for St. Andrew's Golf Club at Mount Hope. 
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/E264E952-4030-4594-BC5D-B7B55D284597.png_zpsx7t71x1f.jpeg)
Here is a link to the article:
http://tinyurl.com/z964k84 (http://tinyurl.com/z964k84)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 14, 2016, 09:57:04 AM
This article is very difficult to read, but it discusses Pine Lake club hiring Willie Park to construct a second nine at the end of 1922.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/55657B93-4F8C-46E2-B1CF-50E473E52E42.png_zpse3tmqksl.jpeg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Anthony Gholz on January 14, 2016, 12:33:42 PM
Bret:


This is a clearer article from the Detroit Free Press regarding the added nine November 29, 1922 and the original Park nine June 8, 1919


Tony


(http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah285/agholz/Pine%20Lake%20Park%20add%209%20DFP%20c%20Wed%2011291922_zpsanmjtgop.jpg)


(http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah285/agholz/Pine%20Lake%20Park%20DFP%20Sun%20681919%20c_zpsakvkn179.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 15, 2016, 09:18:07 AM
Perhaps Mungo can confirm something that has been pestering me about Park's timeline, namely exactly when he was working in the US.


We know he was here in the mid-1890's.  We also know he came over in 1916 pretty much staying into 1924 before returning to Scotland where he passed away. 


There are a few courses attributed to him from right after the turn of the century.  One of those, CC of New Bedford, had its first 9 holes built in 1902.  One source notes Park didn't do work here until 1923, but does this make any sense with Ross coming in a year later to add 9 holes?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 15, 2016, 09:27:31 AM
Following up on my last post, I'm going to add in a basic timeline of his work in the U.S. (hopefully this also helps Mungo clean up his list).

To start, here's his work from prior to 1900.

-New York Sun July 14, 1895

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Willie%20Park%20-%20New%20York%20Sun%20July%2014%201895_zpsgwlgnowc.jpg)

1895

John Jacob Astor Private Course (Rhinebeck, NY)

-The Sun May 23, 1895

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Astor%20Private%20-%20The%20Sun%20May%2023%201895_zpsyyelzxvz.jpg)

-Los Angeles Herald Aug. 12, 1895

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/John%20Jacob%20Astor%20-%20LA%20Herald%20Aug.%2012%201895_zpsbpvp2dpu.png)


Knollwood CC (White Plains, NY)

-The Sun June 21, 1895

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Knollwood%20-%20The%20Sun%20June%2021%201895_zps0v5byglz.png)

-The Sun Feb. 2, 1896

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Knollwood%20-%20New%20York%20Sun%20Feb.%202%201896_zpspjakxbdu.jpg)

-Harpers 1900 Golf Guide notes course was laid out by Willie Park in May, 1894.


Agawam Hunt Club (East Providence, RI)

-This was the original version of Agawam Hunt Club (first course built in 1895), prior to the club purchasing the old course of Metacomet in 1917.


Misquamicut GC (Westerly, RI)

-Glasgow Evening Times July 19, 1895

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Misquamicut%20-%20Glasgow%20Evening%20Times%20July%2019%201895_zpsxde7hzls.jpg)

-The Sun Aug. 19, 1895

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Misquamicut%20-%20The%20Sun%20Aug.%2019%201895_zpsfquqyxcn.png)

-New York Times March 3, 1896

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Misquamicut%20-%20New%20York%20Times%20March%203%201896_zpsa2wvo8c0.jpg)

-Harpers 1901 Golf Guide notes first nine was laid out in Willie Park in 1895.
   
Shelburne Farms Links (Shelburne, VT)

-St. Johnsbury Caledonian Sept. 12, 1900

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Shelburne%20Farms%20-%20St.%20Johnsbury%20Caledonian%20Sept.%2012%201900_zpsiojhlg8l.png)

   
1897

St. Louis Amateur Athletic Association aka Triple A CC (St. Louis, MO)

- I'd like to see a source for this attribution.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 15, 2016, 09:28:48 AM
1900-1910

-For all of these courses I'm pretty sure the work came after his return to the US in 1916.


1902

New Bedford (CC of) (New Bedford, MA)

Grand Rapids CC (Grand Rapids, MI)

-Pretty sure this is the same as Cascade Hills from 1919.


1909

Madison CC (Madison, CT)

New Canaan (CC of) (New Canaan, CT)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 15, 2016, 09:30:05 AM
1910-1919

-Golf Magazine April 1916

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Park%20Golf%20Magazine%20April%201916_zpsppt8hvag.png)

-Golf Illustrated May 1916

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Park%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20May%201916_zpsgdzb1xyv.png)

-Schenectady Gazette July 18, 1916

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Willie%20Park%20-%20Schenectady%20Gazette%20July%2018%201916_zpsliladuxi.png)

-The Sun Dec. 6, 1917

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Park%20-%20The%20Sun%20Dec.%206%201917_zps08q5qobj.jpeg)

-An Ad from the June 1916 edition of Golfers Magazine noting his arrival in the US.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Willie%20Park%20Ad%20-%20Golfers%20Magazine%20June%201916_zpsnquq2c8b.png)

-Ads from May and August of 1917 (Golf Illustrated) - note how Minneapolis doesn't appear on the August list.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Willie%20Park%20Ad%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20May%201917_zps1n6oscy0.png)     (http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Willie%20Park%20Ad%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20Aug.%201917_zpsxzqdxjb2.png)

1916

Shuttle Meadow CC (New Britain, CT)

-See the July 18, 1916 Schenectady Gazette article copied above.

-See the Nov. 19, 1916 Asheville Citizen Sun article copied below.


Milton-Hoosic Club, The (Canton, MA)

-See the July 18, 1916 Schenectady Gazette article copied above.


Meadowbrook CC (Northville, MI)

-See the July 18, 1916 Schenectady Gazette article copied above.

-The Daily Courier Sept. 12, 1916

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Meadow%20Brook%20-%20The%20Daily%20Courier%20Sept.%2012%201916_zpsmjeq9wev.jpeg)

-See the Dec. 6, 1917 The Sun article copied above.


Minneapolis GC (Minneapolis, MN) - Per Rick Shefchick, initial plans done by Park and course completed by W. Clark.

-See the Nov. 19, 1916 Asheville Citizen Sun article copied below.


Happy Valley CC (Asheville, NC) - Initial plans called for course to be laid out by Donald Ross.

-Asheville Citizen-Times Oct. 10, 1916

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Happy%20Valley%20-%20Asheville%20Citizen-Times%20Oct.%2010%201916_zpsggb47brl.jpeg)

-Asheville Citizen-Times Oct. 15, 1916

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Happy%20Valley%20-%20Asheville%20Citizen-Times%20Oct.%2015%201916_zpscpompyei.jpeg)

-Asheville Citizen Sun Nov. 1916

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Asheville%20-%20Asheville%20Citizen%20Sun%20Nov.%2019%201916_zpsfbpstygv.jpg)


North Jersey CC aka Paterson GC (Paterson, NJ) - Alterations

-See the July 18, 1916 Schenectady Gazette article copied above.


Grant Hugh Brown Private Course (Goshen, NY) - No evidence this course was ever completed.

-Middletown Daily Times-Press May 11, 1916

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Grant%20Hugh%20Browne%20Private%20-%20Middletown%20Daily%20Times-Press%20May%2011%201916_zpsjx7oeovq.jpg)

-Middletown Daily Times-Press June 1, 1916

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Goshen%20-%20Middletown%20Daily%20Times-Press%20June%201%201916_zpsfcovx5lb.jpg)


St. Albans CC (St. Albans, NY)


Sylvania CC (Sylvania, OH)

-See the Dec. 6, 1917 The Sun article copied above.

-March 1918 American Golfer notes Park as architect and that clearing operations began in 1917 and course ready to play this summer. 
   

1917


Flint GC (Flint, MI)

-See the Dec. 6, 1917 The Sun article copied above.


Pine Lake CC aka Automobile Club of Detroit (Orchard Lake, MI)

-See the Dec. 6, 1917 The Sun article copied above.


Red Run GC (Royal Oak, MI) - Reconstruction

-See the Dec. 6, 1917 The Sun article copied above.

-Detroit Free Press Dec. 23, 1917

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Red%20Run%20-%20Detroit%20Free%20Press%20Dec.%2023%201917%201_zpswcittooi.png)     (http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Red%20Run%20-%20Detroit%20Free%20Press%20Dec.%2023%201917%202_zpsjdldstbu.png)


Toledo CC (Toledo, OH)

-See the Dec. 6, 1917 The Sun article copied above.

   
1918

Woodway CC (Darien, CT)

New York Tribune June 4, 1918 -

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Woodway%20-%20New%20York%20Tribune%20June%204%201918_zpsewff4yia.jpeg)

-New York Herald Dec. 1, 1918

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Woodway%20-%20New%20York%20Herald%20Dec.%201%201918_zpsjbh97aie.png)

-Noted in a 1923 Park Advertisement.


Glen Ridge CC (Glen Ridge, NJ)

-New York Evening Post Jan. 30, 1918

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Glen%20Ridge%20-%20New%20York%20Evening%20Post%20Jan.%2030%201918_zpsicrh8nll.jpg)


Moon Brook CC (Jamestown, NY)


Berkshire CC (Reading, PA)


1919

Olympia Fields CC (South or #1) (Olympia Fields, IL)

-Chicago Daily Tribune April 15, 1919

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/OFCC%20-%20Chicago%20Daily%20Tribune%20April%2015%201919_zps2glvmva0.jpeg)

-American Golfer May 1919

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/OFCC%20-%20The%20American%20Golfer%20May%201919_zps9dale5ea.png)

   
Olympia Fields CC (#2) (Olympia Fields, IL)

-See the two articles for OFCC #1 above.

   
Olympia Fields CC (#3) (Olympia Fields, IL)

-See the two articles for OFCC #1 above.


Baltimore CC (Roland Park) (Baltimore, MD)

-Golf Illustrated Nov. 1919

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Baltimore%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20Nov.%201919_zpsh97auxy0.jpeg)


Battle Creek CC (Battle Creek, MI)

-First 9 was completed in 1920, second 9 in 1922.

-Noted in a 1923 Park Advertisement.


Cascade Hills CC aka Lakeview CC (Grand Rapids, MI)

-1920 Annual Guide notes W. Park and J. Daray working on a new course.


Chartiers CC aka Chartiers Heights CC (Pittsburgh, PA)


Green Valley CC (Roxborough, PA)


Indiana CC (Indiana, PA)


Metacomet GC (East Providence, RI)

-New York Times Sept. 14, 1919

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Metacomet%20-%20New%20York%20Times%20Sept.%2014%201919_zpsmf437azh.jpeg)


Princess Anne CC (Virginia Beach, VA)

Virginian-Pilot June 16, 1921

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Princess%20Anne%20Viriginian-Pilot%20June%2016%201921_zpsy4iyoxgd.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 15, 2016, 09:31:30 AM
1920-1924

-1921 and 1923 Ads

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Willie%20Park%201921%20Ad_zpso1yhukem.jpg)     (http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Willie%20Park%20Ad%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20June%201923_zpssqms5zml.png)

1920

Hot Springs CC (Majestic) (Hot Springs, AR)


New Haven CC (Hamden, CT)

-Golf Illustrated Jan. 1921

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/New%20Haven%20CC%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20Jan.%201921_zpsbqxwdp9g.png)

-The American Contractor April 2, 1921

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/New%20Haven%20-%20The%20American%20Contractor%20April%202%201921_zpsjwsmqkvj.png)

-Noted in a 1923 Park Advertisement.


Highland G&CC (Indianapolis, IN)

-Park routed the course, which was completed by W. Diddel.

-See the Feb. 8, 1920 The Sun and The New York Herald article copied below.

-Noted in a 1923 Park Advertisement.


Rolling Road GC (Catonsville, MD)

-See Nov. 19, 1916 Asheville Citizen article copied in the previous post which notes Park working on a course in Baltimore. 


Canoe Brook (North) (Milburn, NJ)

-Most likely all Park did was advise on the suitability of the location of the new course or provide a preliminary routing.


Willowdale CC (Buffalo, NY)

-Buffalo Courier April 7, 1921

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Willowdale%20now%20Westwood%20-%20Buffalo%20Courier%20April%207%201921_zpsou2veufw.jpg)


East Liverpool CC (East Liverpool, OH)


Abington Club aka Old York Road CC (Jenkintown, PA)
 
-March 19, 1920 Evening Public Ledger notes Park went over the course and 3 holes will be made longer and others will be made anew.


1921

Castine GC (Castine, ME)

John H. Cain GC aka Newport GC (Newport, NH)

Atlantic City CC (Northfield, NJ)

-Bridgeport Times and Evening Farmer May 24, 1919

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Atlantic%20City%20-%20Bridgeport%20Times%20and%20Evening%20Farmer%20May%2024%201919_zpsxw6aoiz3.jpeg)

-Philadelphia Inquirer July 25, 1920

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Willie%20Park%20-%20Philadelphia%20Inquirer%20July%2025%201920_zpsyprutwue.png)

 
Marion CC (Marion, OH)

Penn State University GC (Blue) (State College, PA)


Penn State University GC (Nittany) (State College, PA)


Schuykill CC (Pottsville, PA)

-Mount Carmel Item Nov. 13, 1916

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Pottsville%20-%20Mount%20Carmel%20Item%20Nov.%2013%201916_zps7u1vqtmv.jpeg)

-See Nov. 19, 1916 Asheville Citizen noting Park had laid out a course in "Pottsville."  Work was done by Park in 1916 but course didn't open until 1921.


1922

Shorehaven GC (East Norwalk, CT)

-The Norwalk Hour Dec. 25, 1923

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Shorehaven%20-%20Norwalk%20Hour%20Dec.%2025%201923%201_zpseoubx0ly.png)     (http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Shorehaven%20-%20Norwalk%20Hour%20Dec.%2025%201923%202_zpsorqvii30.png)


Miami Beach GC (Bay Shore) aka Alton Beach GC (Miami Beach, FL)

-The Miami News Feb. 6, 1920

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Miami%20Beach%20-%20The%20Miami%20News%20Feb.%206%201920_zpsuevs3nhn.jpg)

-The Sun and The New York Herald Feb. 8, 1920

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Miami%20Beach%20-%20The%20Sun%20and%20The%20New%20York%20Herald%20Feb.%208%201920_zpsets2mppl.jpeg)

-Golfers Magazine March 1920

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Miami%20Beach%20-%20Golfers%20Magazine%20March%201920_zpsucy7znix.png)

-Golf Illustrated March 1920

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Miami%20Beach%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20March%201920_zpsid0md1po.png)

Miami Beach GC (Flamingo) (Miami Beach, FL)

-See the March 1920 Golf Illustrated and Golfers Magazine articles above.


Olympia Fields CC (North or #4) - Private in (Olympia Fields, IL)

-Course initially to have been designed by Donald Ross.

-See the May 1919 American Golfer article posted above.

-Noted in a 1923 Park Advertisement.


Bellefonte CC (Ashland, KY)


Mill Creek GC (North/Blue) (Youngstown, OH)

-American Golfer April 8, 1922

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Mill%20Creek%20CC%20-%20The%20American%20Golfer%20Apr%208%201922_zpsu9yl1rbr.png)


Youghiogheny CC (McKeesport, PA)



1923

Greate Bay GC aka Ocean City CC aka Somers Point GC (Somers Point, NJ)

-Golf Illustrated May 1923

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Willie%20Park%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20May%201923_zpsli7ygj5h.png)

-Ocean City Sentinel Ledger August 20, 1926

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Ocean%20City%20-%20Ocean%20City%20Sentinel%20Ledger%20August%206%201926_zpsokhjzpxn.jpg)

Maidstone Club (East Hampton, NY)

-See the May 1923 Golf Illustrated article above.


Ashland GC (Ashland, OH)

-Noted in a 1923 Park Advertisement.


Ashbourne CC (Cheltenham, PA)


Philmont CC (North) (Huntingdon Valley, PA)

-Philadelphia Inquirer March 20, 1921

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Philmont%20North%20-%20Philadelphia%20Inquirer%20March%2020%201921_zpsqlhjlyzi.jpg)

-See the May 1923 Golf Illustrated article above.

-Philadelphia Public Ledger Nov. 11, 1923

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Philmont%20-%20Philadelphia%20Public%20Ledger%20Nov.%2011%201923_zpsqorqcsej.jpg)


Pittsburgh Field Club (Pittsburgh, PA)

-See the May 1923 Golf Illustrated article above.

-Park drew up plans to rework the back nine, the plans were rejected.


St. Johnsbury CC (Saint Johnsbury, VT)

   

1924

Tumble Brook CC (Red Nine) (Bloomfield, CT)

-See the May 1923 Golf Illustrated article above which refers to the course as "Pemberbrook."


Congress Lake Club (Hartville, OH)

-May 1924 Park Advertisement notes he laid out the course.


Pawtucket GC (Pawtucket, RI)


Boonsboro CC (Lynchburg, VA)

-See the May 1923 Golf Illustrated article above.

-Park was paid for an early layout, but the design was completed and the course was built by Fred Findlay.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 15, 2016, 09:32:57 AM
Additional US Courses


Newport GC (Newport, RI)


- Possibly made suggestions on changes in 1895.


Grove Park Inn (Asheville, NC)

- No work by Park at Grove Park Inn confirmed, possibly a mistaken reference to Happy Valley CC in Asheville.


Unnamed Course in "Reidsville"

-See the Nov. 19, 1916 Asheville Citizen Sun article copied two posts above.


Unnamed Course in "Meridian"

-See the Nov. 19, 1916 Asheville Citizen Sun article copied two posts above.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on January 15, 2016, 09:51:40 AM
I've never been able to find anything contemporaneous regarding Park at Glen Ridge, NJ despite some fairly extensive searching.    Have others?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 15, 2016, 12:15:15 PM
Mike:


I haven't seen anything confirming Park at Glen Ridge.  I'm guess if Joe had you would know about it.  Perhaps Jim has come across something.


I'm going to add in more articles and notes later on today (including additional items other folks have posted in this thread), and welcome any additions.


Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Joe Bausch on January 15, 2016, 03:57:11 PM
Mike:


I haven't seen anything confirming Park at Glen Ridge.  I'm guess if Joe had you would know about it.  Perhaps Jim has come across something.



Jan 30, 1918 edition of the NY Evening Post:


(http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/GlenRidge/Jan30_1918_NYEveningPost.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on January 15, 2016, 04:02:35 PM
Nice, Joe!   ;D

I suspected it was one of his "war effort" courses whose attributions and timing tended to get clouded over the years. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 15, 2016, 04:18:39 PM
Sven,


Great job putting all of this information together. 


Regarding Battle Creek, Michigan, I have seen an advertisement from Golf Illustrated-December 1919 that mentions Peterson, Sinclaire & Miller Inc. constructing the 18 hole course at Battle Creek.  The advertisement also notes the architect is Willie Park.


Willie Park also lists this course in his 1923 advertisement you posted above.


(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/6CB32412-41EE-4D7B-A705-94F708435C51.png_zpsvihqjlgg.jpeg)


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 18, 2016, 09:12:27 AM
Here is another Peterson, Sinclaire & Miller Inc. advertisement from November 1919, Golf Illustrated (listing Willie Park as architect):
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/63D6ABAE-9B97-41A8-AAE3-9A7542540262.png_zpsombhin3u.jpeg)


There are several other ads from this company in the early 20's.  An ad from January 1920 Golf Illustrated shows the Princess Anne Country Club in Virginia Beach, Virginia.  A March 1920 Golf Illustrated advertisement shows construction on Atlantic City Country Club.


Willie Park is listed as the architect on a few of these advertisements.  Willie Park also shared the same address as Peterson, Sinclaire & Miller at 25 West 45th Street, NY, NY during this time period.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on January 18, 2016, 09:32:58 AM
I just wanted to say that this is one of the very best threads in the history of GCA.

This type of collaborative, educational, informative and collegial research endeavor is a wonderful use of this site.   It's a joy to participate.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 18, 2016, 09:36:11 AM
An article from The Bridgeport times and evening farmer-May 24, 1919 notes some of the work planned by Park at Country Club of Atlantic City:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/C9876A28-3804-4D20-83C5-CC1D7028DB9A.png_zpsxwopau0k.jpeg)

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 18, 2016, 09:45:48 AM
Woodway Country Club-Darien, CT.  June 4, 1918 article from New-York Tribune:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/222DFDFD-0ECF-4B64-A7FC-124C1A870871.png_zpscu8q2et4.jpeg)


Woodway C.C. will be hosting the 82nd Connecticut Open championship this year.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on January 20, 2016, 02:35:31 PM
From the periodical "Golf", (sent to me by Niall Carlton) from July 22, 1898.

"Willie Park has recently gone carefully over the ground at Gullane, over which a new course is proposed to be laid out."

Certainly no surprise there for the #2 course but would love to see any documentation related to the circa 1910 creation of course #3. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Anthony Gholz on January 20, 2016, 08:18:26 PM
Ben:
As discussed here is the Willie Park takeover of the (Royal) Ottawa course post war from Colt's design pre-war, possibly on another site.  From the Ottawa Journal  April 28, 1920.
Tony


(http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah285/agholz/Royal%20Ottawa%20WP%20OJ%20Wed%204281920%20c_zpsdfczzggj.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 21, 2016, 11:04:15 AM
Just have a question about Rolland Road GC in MD. You say 'Rolling Road'. Is this correct, or is it 'Rolland'?


Scott asked the question above earlier in the thread.


Park worked on two courses in Baltimore, the first being Rolling Road GC in Catonsville.  That project started shortly after his return to the States in 1916, but it appears the course didn't open until a few years later.


The other course was the Roland Park course of the Baltimore CC (located in the area of Baltimore with that name).  Roland Park dates back to late 1896/early 1897 and was originally laid out by Willie Dunn.  As posted by Bret above, the Peterson, Sinclaire & Miller Ad suggests Park came in some time prior to Nov. 1919 (probably while working at Rolling Road GC) to reconstruct the course.


I haven't found much of anything in the press discussing the work done at Roland Park.  The Annual Guides suggest work having been done at some point, with the length of the course at 6,042 yards as reported in 1921 jumping to 6,289 yards in 1922.


Sven



Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 21, 2016, 09:54:34 PM
This article mentions Willie Park and Metacomet Golf Club:

The New York Times-September 14, 1919:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/DCF6D432-1799-4C8A-9EFA-B04232701459.png_zpsnxwdlxtc.jpeg)











Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 23, 2016, 08:59:04 AM
A follow up to Metacomet:


Agawam Hunt purchased the lease on Metacomet's land in 1917.  Metacomet was given until April 1919 to find a new home. Willie Park was hired to build Metacomet's new course. 
In 1924 the course was completely redesigned by Donald Ross.  Here is an article from The New-York Telegram and Daily Mail dated October 1, 1924. This article may indicate the tie between Park and Ross working on so many of the same courses.  It appears that they may have shared the same construction company.


(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/2B3220A0-6A5C-4FA1-A774-A4832F378604.png_zpsnojbshpa.jpeg)


There is an announcement in several golf magazines in February 1920 that indicates Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller Inc. consolidated with Carters Tested Seeds as of January 1920. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 24, 2016, 08:54:01 PM
Bret:


Interesting find.


Ledgemont was also a Follett design.  It opened as a 9 hole course and at some point the name was changed to Ledgemont Valley CC.  In 1949 the course was sold to new owners when Ledgemont moved to Seekonk, MA.  The name was changed to Valley CC (which still exists) and the course was expanded to 18 holes by Geoffrey Cornish in the 1960's.


Carter's and the other seed merchants were major players in who did what where, and I don't think we know enough about the various alignments that were in place between the companies and the architects.


Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 24, 2016, 10:03:56 PM
Here's an example of some of the projects Carter's had in the works in 1922 with the architects for each noted.

Saucon Valley CC - Herbert Strong
Green Valley CC - Willie Park
East Liverpool CC - Willie Park
Ottawa Hunt and Motor Club - Willie Park
Lakeview GC - Herbert Strong
Guyan CC - Herbert Strong
Battle Creek CC - Willie Park
Royal Montreal GC - Willie Park
Linwood CC - Herbert Strong
Moon Brook CC - Willie Park
Westbrook CC - Donald Ross
Hudson River CC - Donald Ross and Willie Tucker
Wildwood GC - Stiles & Van Kleek
North Hills CC - Stiles & Van Kleek
Philmont CC - Willie Park
Youghiogheny CC - Willie Park
New Thornburg Club (Chartiers CC) - Willie Park

St. Louis Post-Dispatch June 11, 1922

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Carters%20-%20St.%20Louis%20Post-Dispatch%20June%2011%201922_zpsefg5ixuu.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 26, 2016, 10:48:47 AM
In an older thread on Princess Anne it was noted that there was at least one article noting the course had been laid out by Donald Ross.  Here's an advertisement from the June 13, 1926 edition of the Brooklyn Daily Eagle making the same statement.  Perhaps a mistake, perhaps not and Ross did actually do some work subsequent to the initial construction to which Park contributed.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Princess%20Anne%20-%20Brooklyn%20Daily%20Eagle%20June%2013%201926_zpsmje6elne.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on January 26, 2016, 11:13:56 AM
I presume you are referring to the Virginia Beach course?  If so, I just removed it.

Baltimore CC (Roland Park course)- Was this the West course NLE or is a Cupp course post fire? 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 26, 2016, 05:49:40 PM
Why would you remove Princess Anne?  Nothing in my post said Park didn't work there.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 27, 2016, 09:20:34 AM
Ben,


The Roland Park course was located several miles south of the Five Farms site. Up until the mid 1920's, Roland Park was the only course Baltimore CC owned.  The East course at Five Farms (designed by Tillinghast) was opened in 1926. 


The Roland Park course was closed in 1962, when all the land west of Route 25 was sold.  This same year the West course at Baltimore CC was opened.  Baltimore CC still owns the Club House in Roland Park today.  If you look on an aerial you can still make out a few holes east of Route 25.


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on January 27, 2016, 09:51:32 AM
Bret,

  Thank you, I noted it in opening post.

Ben
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 27, 2016, 10:37:42 AM
Sven:


I agree that we don't know enough about the relationships with the seed companies, construction companies and architects.  However, I do think it is apparent that Willie Park was tied to Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller Inc. in 1919-1920, then Carters Tested Seeds after the two companies merged in January 1920.  I understand that other architects were also associated with these companies.


One more potential tie to these companies or courses is Al Williams, who was noted as the superintendent of construction in the Woodway article posted earlier.  A 1923 advertisement for Al Williams lists several courses for reference purposes.  The list includes Hartford Golf Club, Woodway CC, Maplewood Field Club-Maplewood, NJ, Atlantic City CC, Princess Anne CC-Norfolk, VA, Linwood CC-Linwood, NJ, and Canterbury CC-Cleveland, Ohio


Linwood and Canterbury were Herbert Stong designs.  Woodway, Atlantic City and presumably Princess Anne were Willie Park designs and Hartford Golf Club was designed and supervised by Al Williams in 1915-1916 (prior to Emmet or Ross showing up).  The Maplewood Field Club is the only course listed which I could not find an attribution for.


I don't have a lot of background information on Al Wiliams, but he seems to have been somehow associated with Carters Seeds and/or Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller, Inc.  Williams specialty was greens keeping and he studied for several years under Peter Lees, before he came to America.


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 27, 2016, 12:45:04 PM
Bret:


Just to be clear, there is no doubt in my mind that Park was associated with Peterson Sinclaire and subsequently Carter's.  It sounds like they had a group of architects they funneled jobs to, perhaps based on club budgets, location, or simply timing.


I suspect Willie Tucker was also involved in much the same role as Al Williams.  The big surprise for me was to see Stiles & Van Kleek tied in to the extent they were.


Maplewood Field Club (aka Maplewood CC) was an Al Williams plan according to an Aug. 22, 1922 The Sun article.


Sven



Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 27, 2016, 12:50:42 PM
Bret:


Here's the 1923 Al Williams Ad you noted:


(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Al%20Williams%20Ad%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20June%201923_zpspfcybn2h.png)


As you noted, the list seems to include construction and design jobs.


Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on January 28, 2016, 12:23:08 PM
Sven:


Thanks for the information on Maplewood and posting the Al Williams ad.


I was also surprised to see Stiles and Van Kleek on the ad you posted.  I have seen Strong, Ross, Park and even Fowler courses featured in some of their ads, but not Stiles & Van Kleek. Interesting find.


Madison Country Club, Madison, CT:
I have an article from the Hartford Courant that mentions Madison Country Club opening a new nine hole course on July 3, 1919.  The article does not name an architect or give a description of the golf course. 


The Golf Guides prior to 1922 describe a 9 hole course, 2,500, yards established in 1899. The Golf Guide of 1922 describes a course of 9 holes 3,058 yards.  At the bottom, there is a note that a new course has opened, sea side. Every guide after 1922 notes a year of establishment as 1919.  I think if Willie Park built 9 holes at Madison it would have been in 1918-1919.  I have yet to find an article to prove this, but the club certainly believes he was there at some point.  The club history also mentions Orrin Smith building the back nine in the late 20's.


Bret





Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on January 31, 2016, 06:39:25 PM
Sven, and all,
First, I have to echo Mike Cirba's comments. This is a fantastic collaborative thread. I have always been slightly nervous of holding such a public conversation, but I am learning so much useful information. It is great - thanks.

Sven - great time line and cuttings and much else besides - where to start?
Your assumption about 1900 - 1919 courses is correct. They should probably all fall within the 1916 - 1919 bracket. WP wasn't there between August 1896 and 14th April 1916. He first went in March 1895 - July 1895 (exhibition matches with Willie Dunn, time at Astors etc) and then he did have a second visit in 1896 (March to July), which is when he took my grandad (Mungo Jnr) over with him to run the ill-fated shop - and did Shelburne Farms course. He was not there in 1894 so the Harper's 1900 ref is incorrect, although their 1901 is good.

I have set about tidying up the list and will post it (assuming my competence stretches that far) as soon as it is done. Princess Anne looks solid with that reference, but there are still one or two queries, which I hope the combined minds of everyone involved can un-ravel for me.
They are as follows: -
Lastly the discussion about Peterson, Sinclaire & Miller is a most interesting vein, particularly as Willie Park and they seemed to share offices. That's a real nugget. I also noticed (Bret's post) that an Arthur D Peterson was President of Carter's Tested Seeds. Carters and PS&M consolidated in January 1920. From the web, Arthur D Peterson Inc. appears later in the "Market Place and Buyers Guide" of 1929, under 'Seed', and then again in Sept 1930 and February 1931, where they are selling Fertilizers, Golf equipment, Hose and 'Brown Patch Control'. I wonder what happened to them in the Great Depression?

I am sure I have read, probably in Adams, of whole trainloads of equipment and materials being hired, under the project management of the seed merchants and Willie Park to arrive at a railhead at the start of the contract. It would be fascinating to know more about the structure of these contracts and how they were set up. I have a copy of a spec. for Tynemouth GC, which makes interesting reading, and is very similar in many respects to the way construction contracts are set up over here now.
Thanks to all for a thoroughly informative thread - Bret for confirmation of Highland, Joe for nailing Glen Ridge, Mike for all the Peterson stuff, Niall on Glasgow clarification, Ben and Sven for kicking it all off etc. I am sure the protocol is not to thank everyone, but it is such a productive collaboration, and I am most grateful for it.

On Jan 12th, (before we went on holiday - hence silence), I said that nothing had been found to link Cambridge University GC to WP. Continued delving by Mike Morrison has revealed that he was involved at Coldham Common (as well as Gog Magog) - but until this is checked and verified, I shall hold off putting it on the list.
One last query - Niall mentioned 2 courses in Vienna - I only know of the one on the Prater. Is there another?

Mungo
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on January 31, 2016, 06:44:18 PM
I have 3 club names in Detroit - The Automobile Club, Orchard Lake, and Pine Lake. Are they all the same, or are there more than one that WP was involved in?

Mungo,

   Automobile Club was a 9 hole WPJ course that later became Pine Lake CC and completely re-designed.  There isn't any Park Jr left or very little left at Pine Lake to my knowledge.  Orchard Lake is an Alison course. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Anthony Gholz on January 31, 2016, 08:10:32 PM
Mungo/Ben:


Detroit Free Press July 3, 1938 history of Pine Lake from the Automobile Club:
see also my earlier post back a page regarding the first 9 holes by WP


(http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah285/agholz/Pine%20Lake%20DFP%20Sun%20731938%20c_zpsrmon2vky.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Joe Bausch on January 31, 2016, 08:26:44 PM
I'm quite confident Park did Princess Anne:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57224.msg1333753.html#msg1333753
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on February 02, 2016, 10:25:46 AM
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=12603.25;wap2

Here is a Park Jr thread I found looking for Info on Ashland GC in Ohio.  TMac says that Park did 9 of the holes there and that they have plans.  Haven't read through it all 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on February 02, 2016, 10:49:30 AM
Mungo:


Here is an obituary for Arthur D. Peterson to confirm he was in fact involved with Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller, Inc.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/E92AAFF2-0F29-468B-BDFE-F6B6C5C45059_zpsjezts1uv.png)


Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller Inc. also produced The Golf Course, which was a pamphlet sent out to any club interested in green keeping and construction information.  This pamphlet was published in conjunction with Carters Tested Seeds.  Tillinghast wrote several columns for this pamphlet sharing some of his course drawings and even some of his golf poetry. 


The editor of the magazine was R. O. Sinclaire.  The only name I can not tie down is Miller.  My only logical thought would be T. H. Riggs Miller was the Miller involved.  Sven added an article from June 1, 1916 that mentions T. H. Riggs Miller as the construction engineer for the Willie Park golf course in Goshen, NY.  That same month(June 1916), The Golf Course announced in a small paragraph on the first page: "The Publishers take this opportunity in announcing that Mr. T.H. Riggs Miller  is no longer associated with Peterson, Sinclaire, & Miller Inc."
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/F1C61521-28D9-4166-946D-9D2048B3327D_zpsdwrgnbpz.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on February 02, 2016, 11:06:15 AM
Bret, thanks that's an interesting obit. Seems as though Peterson was a key man in the American golf boom. I should like to know more about him - when was the obituary published?

Ben's earlier thread is interesting. In it Craig Disher asks if WP ever visited Ashdown Forest. I think he may have done, as I was sent a crumpled sepia picture of WP from Ashdown Forest minute book. Although the photo itself doesn't look as though it was taken there, it indicates that he might have visited - a bit circumstantial, I know. . . .

Mungo
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on February 02, 2016, 11:18:51 AM
Mungo:


Pemberbrook is most likely a typo.  I believe they were referring to Tumble Brook which is in Bloomfield, CT, near Hartford.


Philmont CC has a North and a South course.  The North course at Philmont is attributed to Willie Park and the South course is attributed to John Reid with changes made by Hugh Wilson.


Do you have anymore information on Elm Terrace in West Haven, CT? I have never seen a reference to this course before and I am from CT.  There was an Elm Terrace Inn in Woodmont, CT which is right next to West Haven, but I can not find any information on the golf course.


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on February 02, 2016, 11:36:54 AM
Mungo:


The Arthur D. Peterson obituary was in the March 1946 issue of Golfdom, retrieved from the Michigan State University Archives website.


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Tim Martin on February 02, 2016, 11:42:18 AM
Mungo:


Pemberbrook is most likely a typo.  I believe they were referring to Tumble Brook which is in Bloomfield, CT, near Hartford.


Philmont CC has a North and a South course.  The North course at Philmont is attributed to Willie Park and the South course is attributed to John Reid with changes made by Hugh Wilson.


Do you have anymore information on Elm Terrace in West Haven, CT? I have never seen a reference to this course before and I am from CT.  There was an Elm Terrace Inn in Woodmont, CT which is right next to West Haven, but I can not find any information on the golf course.


Bret

Bret-Woodmont aka Woodmont by the Sea borders West Haven and is a section of Milford. I have never heard of any golf course in that area although it would have provided a prime site as it is right on LI Sound. I would be surprised if it was located in the aforementioned area. My curiosity is definitely piqued.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on February 02, 2016, 01:40:50 PM
All, It looks as though Pemberbrook is for deletion, unless anyone has some positive ID for it. There is a 'Penderbrook' but it was designed in 1980, and posthumous design was not as far as I know, a WP skill.
With regard to Elm Terrace, I have a feeling this came from Joe Bausch or Sven? but otherwise it might have been Tony Pioppi or Kyle Harris. It was before I was making a note of the attribution. I think it was indeed the Elm Terrace Inn, but I can't find the source at the moment. Can anyone help out?

Bret, thanks for the Peterson date - it would be good to build up a picture of the company, which seems to have been a driving force. I have an image of Carters Tested Seeds HQ in Raynes Park, UK. I wonder whether they moved to America or from it?

Here is my latest revision of the list, with those still in need of corroboration indicated by indents and / or questions (to follow via Ben I hope - I am still grappling with my unrecognizable avatar, whatever that is)

I am sure I have a Farmington CT reference for 1895 or 96, but cannot pin it down.
Is Ashland OH different from Ashland KY (Bellefonte) - I presume so?

Mungo
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on February 02, 2016, 08:01:51 PM
Update on Page 10
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on February 02, 2016, 08:38:34 PM
Mungo:


You have the Miami Beach Flamingo course on there twice.  I'd delete the first reference.


Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on February 02, 2016, 09:47:56 PM

With regard to Elm Terrace, I have a feeling this came from Joe Bausch or Sven? but otherwise it might have been Tony Pioppi or Kyle Harris. It was before I was making a note of the attribution. I think it was indeed the Elm Terrace Inn, but I can't find the source at the moment. Can anyone help out?



Pretty sure Elm Terrace didn't come from me, I don't have anything on a course by that name, and I don't have any courses in West Haven at all. 


Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Ryan Hillenbrand on February 03, 2016, 11:02:30 AM
218 77 St. Louis Amateur Athletic Association (St. Louis, MO) aka Tr?i?p?le? A CC  ???

Ben,

Thanks, never knew this was once a Willie Park. Triple A was a 9 hole private facility built within our main urban park, Forest Park. It had two sets of tees so you could play it twice and somewhat have a different 18 hole experience. Unlike the other 27 holes where the park went around the course, at Triple A you had  jogging and bike path crossings everywhere so you had to keep an eye out for pedestrians.

Its main claim to fame was it was the training ground for Judy Rankin, and Arthur Ashe for tennis.

It was re-designed by a Hale Irwin associate and now serves as our First Tee chapter. Short and quirky. It was nothing special before, though if it restored to Park's original design maybe it could have been better.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on February 03, 2016, 11:35:28 AM
218 77 St. Louis Amateur Athletic Association (St. Louis, MO) aka Tr?i?p?le? A CC  ???

Ben,

Thanks, never knew this was once a Willie Park. Triple A was a 9 hole private facility built within our main urban park, Forest Park. It had two sets of tees so you could play it twice and somewhat have a different 18 hole experience. Unlike the other 27 holes where the park went around the course, at Triple A you had  jogging and bike path crossings everywhere so you had to keep an eye out for pedestrians.

Its main claim to fame was it was the training ground for Judy Rankin, and Arthur Ashe for tennis.

It was re-designed by a Hale Irwin associate and now serves as our First Tee chapter. Short and quirky. It was nothing special before, though if it restored to Park's original design maybe it could have been better.


Ryan:


Of all the courses on the list, Triple A is probably the least likely to have been a Willie Park design.  The timing doesn't match, as he'd already returned to the UK.


Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on February 03, 2016, 11:45:29 AM

Mungo:


I found some information on Elm Terrace Country Club in West Haven, CT, including a map.  The course did not last long.  Advertisements as early as 1926 announced the course being converted to a housing development.  The 1934 aerial shows mostly open land with very little development at this point.  Here is the link: 
http://tinyurl.com/guj2dhk (http://tinyurl.com/guj2dhk)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on February 03, 2016, 11:49:49 AM
Mungo:


Here are the courses I'd remove from your list:


152 - Canton is the same as Hoosic-Whisick (aka Milton-Hoosick).
158 - Detroit - not sure what this is a reference to.
175 - Maidstone - Do we have a source for his work at Maidstone in 1895?  If not, the later date is the only one that should be noted.
188 - New Britain - You already have Shuttle Meadow on the list.
191 - Newport (RI) - I'd mark his involvement with a major asterisk, we don't have anything concrete yet saying he actually did work.
200 - Pemberbrook should definitely come off (as noted it is the same as Tumble Brook).
202 - Philmont (South) - he did the North course here.
218 - Triple A - Timing doesn't match up.


I'd like to see any source materials for nos. 156 (CC of Farmington), 157 (Defiance) and 216 (St. Andrews).


Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on February 03, 2016, 11:55:20 AM
The link in my last post is not working properly, here is the map of Elm Terrace in West Haven, CT:


(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/9CA62C1D-43E0-47D0-9ACF-033615EF819F.png_zpsru8nmiuz.jpeg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on February 03, 2016, 11:58:28 AM
Bret:

Nice find.

Here's a Jan. 1922 Concrete Magazine blurb on Elm Terrace and Thompson noting he had plans for a course.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Elm%20Terrace%20-%20Concrete%20Jan.%201922_zpswuqqwdqz.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on February 03, 2016, 12:04:25 PM
It appears that Elm Terrace was around until at least 1941


From A Guide to Summer Recreation printed by the New Haven Council of Social Agencies dated 1941 -


(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Elm%20Terrace%20-%20A%20Guide%20to%20Summer%20Recreation%201941%201_zpsixetlhyw.png)


(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Elm%20Terrace%20-%20A%20Guide%20to%20Summer%20Recreation%201941%202_zpsm3zitjik.png)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on February 03, 2016, 12:35:28 PM
Sven,


Interesting find.  I must have been wrong.  I just looked on historicaerials.com and you can definitely make out a few greens on the 1949 aerial.  By 1951 (CT Library aerial) this land was turned into a development. 


However, looking at the 1934 aerial, I can not seem to make out any holes on this property.  I have even looked on the CT Library slides that are much clearer than historic aerials.  I have contacted the West Haven Historical Society, so I am waiting to hear back from them with more information.


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on February 03, 2016, 07:17:37 PM
Bret, Sven - Interesting finds on Elm Terrace, which seems to confirm Joe's earlier find. I just wish I knew where I had come across it.

In response to Sven suggested 'omits', and to Niall's 'adds' from when I was away,

I have added the private course for Count Althann in Vienna, which apart from the Prater course is the only one I know about (p71, J Adams, The Parks of Musselburgh)
Versaille is already on the list as La Boulie aka 'Le Racing Club de France' (RCF)
Matlock Bath has been added, on the basis of a one line mention in J Adams (p 71/72) opened in 1903

Sven: -
I have left Newport in, as from your and Bret's refs WP seems to have visited and given his opinion - how much more seems uncertain, as it was shortly before he left for Scotland
WP had some early involvement at The Maidstone, with his brother John. The Minutes report in 1899 that it was decided to pay Willie and Jack Park $53.30 for their work. Willie was not in the country at that time, so precisely what his involvement was is unclear to me.
Canton omitted - doubles  up with Hoosie-Whisick
Detroit
omitted - double with Pine Lake
New Britain omitted as a double with Shuttle Meadow
Pemberbrook omitted
Triple AAA is omitted as insufficiently safe
St Andrews - Mount Hope was discussed in previous posts and thought to be safe, I think?
also Farmington CC omitted . . . . not quite sure where it came from - or why. I shall track back my notes and re-instate if I can demonstrate the case.

Defiance in Defiance OH is listed by WP on the flyer of about 1922, shown on p130 of J Adams, so I shall leave it in, but I have nothing else on it, and I don't think it is there now.

I shall re-post the list after any further comments.

Mungo



Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on February 03, 2016, 07:59:35 PM
Mungo,

   I have played Defiance Kettering many times, It has been awhile.  My guess is Willie may have done only 9 holes.  I'll contact the club this spring and look in archives for that one.  I've been curious about that one as well.  Toledo CC is still a question mark.  TMac attributed Watson with that one.  The course has been altered so many times.  Pink Lake CC has basically no Park left in it.  I believe it was completely renovated post Automobile GC. 

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on February 04, 2016, 11:56:18 AM
Here is an article from Golf Illustrated-May 1920 mentioning Willie Park at Canoe Brook.  As Sven mentioned earlier, this course was not built to Parks plans:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/BEBDA6F2-6007-4A52-96B0-1DF7946FBE68.png_zpsn0dxgy0m.jpeg)


The second article is from The Salt Lake Tribune-December 18, 1910:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/6D78F83C-3D24-431F-99A6-7B85EE00A645.png_zpsbyqwspaq.jpeg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on February 04, 2016, 01:09:14 PM
Bret,
That's another interesting one - not because of what it says but because of what it doesn't. Killarney and Grantown I knew about - but what in Gloucestershire? Adrian Stiff or Alan Jackson may know. . . or John and Marie Llewellyn. Anyone have any ideas?

Mungo
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on February 04, 2016, 04:23:32 PM
Regarding Maidstone, I used to have David Goddard's terrific little book, "The Maidstone Links" but I think I lent it to Tom Paul several years ago and forget to ask for it back.   These days both our respective memories are getting a little fuzzy.   ;)   

In any case, I recall that book did a pretty nice job in laying out the earliest days and where the original holes were located, such that my prior notes show Willie Tucker designing the original nine in 1896 and then Willie Park with prominent member Adrian Larkin in 1899 bringing the course to 18 holes.

However, doing some quick research I came across the following.   Perhaps others who have the Goddard book might be able to compare and contrast so that we can learn more about what those club minutes say about Willie Park's early role;

Yonkers Statesman, April 29th 1895

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1677/24193192853_e6aef4f6ac.jpg)


NY Evening Post, Feb 17th 1898

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1506/24726571831_8f1d475b4b_b.jpg)


East Hampton (NY) Star, 1942

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1527/24820052465_6470dc3537_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on February 05, 2016, 11:28:12 AM
Mike,
I never saw a copy of David Goddard's book - I should like to. I visited the Club with him as he was in the process of researching it; he was cursing the inevitable golf clubhouse fire, which had destroyed many of the records.

The date in The Maidstone Story is a curious one as in 1899 WP was in Britain, although John might have been on site. The Maidstone centennial history 'The Second Fifty Years' says, "In November 1897 the East Hampton Star announced that work was in progress on an eighteen hole golf course. The Golf committee selected William Park, Jr to plan the new course.". . . and again "When Willie came to East Hampton in 1897 to design the new course, he was accompanied by his brother John, who later returned in 1915 to become the second golf pro for Maidstone". I am guessing that John may have also stayed on to do the work in 1897, completing it in 1899 when he was also pro at the Essex County Country Club.

Most of the East Hampton Star article is taken verbatim from 'The First Fifty Years'.

Mungo
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on February 08, 2016, 04:20:35 AM
Niall,
A couple of mods to the latest list, including Craiglockhart Hydropathic, not Craighouse, and the other one in Vienna

Ben, Sven et al,
There seem to be only two question-marks at the moment, No 200 'Reidsville' and No 213 'Unnamed in Merdiien' - unless anyone has any others?

I shall ask send to Ben for posting, as I am still getting 'An error has occurred, The attachments upload directory is not writable. Your atachment or avatar cannot be saved'. I know this is basic incompetence, but does anyone have any idea what I am doing wrong - running Mac El Capitan OS.

Mungo
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sean_A on February 08, 2016, 04:48:27 AM
I took a quick look at your list

Antwerp is in Belgium

Parkstone is in England

Notts had serious revisions

Sunny Old had serious revisions

Western Gailes had some significant revisions

Formby
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html   

Silloth on Solway
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48672.msg1097997.html#msg1097997

Temple
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.msg777890.html#msg777890

Worplesdon
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47211.msg1052900.html#msg1052900

Western Gailes
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61367.msg1460254.html#msg1460254

Montrose
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56097.0.html

Portstewart
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40300.msg847056.html#msg847056

Stoneham
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30823.msg597466.html#msg597466

I assume you are not separating original designs from redesigns etc.  Below are some courses you may want to investigate

Cooden Beach
Tynemouth
Gog Magog
Aldbeburgh
Berkhampsted
Broadstone

Ciao
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on February 08, 2016, 05:56:55 AM
Mungo can you please confirm I got the following detail right? It was part of an anecdote.

Last Month a few of us spent a lovely hour with Archie Baird at his old Curiosity Museum in Gullane. He informed us that his wife was the daughter of Mungo Park Jr (your Grandfather), who had brought his sick elder brother Willie Jr., home from America. Archie said he had played many rounds with Mungo.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on February 08, 2016, 07:04:07 AM
Tony, No. . . . nearly right. Because of a poverty of imagination the Park clan often suffers from 'name slippage'. Archie's wife Sheila is indeed my first cousin. Her father was my uncle Mungo III. His father was our grandfather Mungo Jnr, winner of the first Argentine Open etc. and brother of WP Jnr.  and yes, Archie did play golf with both his father in law (my uncle), and his grandfather-in-law (my grandfather). I hope that hasn't further confused the matter!

Sean, no, I am trying to include all, and have not differentiated yet. I think I had Antwerp and Parkstone in the list, and the only one I didn't include was Cooden Beach - do you have any attribution / provenance for that? I have it as a Fowler course.

Mungo
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on February 08, 2016, 09:10:40 AM
  I'm going to merge this list with OP list.  Mungo's I put in Red in OP.        (Mungo's updated list)
SCOTLAND

1 1 Baberton Golf Club in Edinburgh City
2 2 Barnton
3 3 Bathgate Golf Club in West Lothian
4 4 Biggar Golf Club in South Lanarkshire
5 5 Bo'ness
6 6 Bridge o' Weir
7 7 Bruntsfield Links Golfing Society, Granton
8 8 Burntisland Golf House Club in Fife
9 9 Carnoustie
10 10 Craigkickhart Hydropathic - Morningside, Edinburgh 1892
11 11 Crieff
12 12 Dalkeith and Newbattle
 ??? 13 13 Duddingston ?
14 14 Duddingston Golf Club Ltd in Edinburgh City
15 15 Forres
16 16 Western Gailes G C adjacent to Glasgow GC, Gailes., Ayrshire
17 17 Glasgow GC Gailes Golf Club in North Ayrshire
18 18 Glencorse
19 19 Gorleston
20 20 Goswick
21 21 Grantown on Spey
22 22 Gullane GC - No. 2 in East Lothian 1898
 ??? 23 23 Gullane GC No 3 East Lothian
24 24 Innellan
25 25 Innerleithen
26 26 Jedburgh
27 27 Kilspindie
28 28 Lauder Golf Club in Scottish Borders
29 29 Luffness New
30 30 Melrose
31 31 Monifeith
32 32 Montrose Golf Links - Medal Course in Angus
33 33 Murrayfield
34 34 Peterhead Golf Club - The New Course in Aberdeenshire
35 35 Peterhead Golf Club - The Old Course in Aberdeenshire
36 36 Selkirk
37 37 Shiskine
38 38 St Boswells
39 39 The West Lothian Golf Club
40 40 Torwoodlee
41 41 Turnhouse
42
43 ENGLAND

44 1 Acton
45 2 Aldeburgh
46 3 Alnmouth
47 4 Barry, Glamorganshire (now defunct)
48 5 Berkhamstead (James Braid according to their web site)
49 6 Berwick on Tweed
50 7 Bexhill on Sea - Sussex
51 8 Brighton and Hove
52 9 Broadstone GC - Dorset
53 10 Burhill
54 11 Cambrige University (Coldham) - distinct from Gog Magog, but WP was involved
55 12 Cannon's Park
56 13 Carholme Golf Club in (Lincolnshire, UK)
57 14 Chiselhurst, Kent
58 15 Coombe Hill
59 16 Edgware
60 17 Ellesborough Golf Club in Buckinghamshire
61 18 Formby
62 19 Frinton-on-Sea
63 20 Gog Magog Golf Club - Old Course in Cambridgeshire
64 21 Goswick
65 22 Gravesend (now Mid-Kent)
66 23 Hampton Court Palace Golf Club in Surrey
67 24 Hartlepool
68 25 Haywards Heath
69 26 Headingley
70 27 Hendon
71 28 Huntercombe Golf Club in Oxfordshire
72 29 Knebworth Golf Club in Hertfordshire
73 30 Matlock Bath 1903
74 31 Muswell Hill
75 32 Neasden
76 33 Newbiggin by Sea
77 34 North Middlesex
78 35 Northampton
79 36 Nottingham Golf Club - Hollinwell, Notts 1901
?? 80 37 Nottinhgham, Bulwell Forest
81 38 Parkstone - Southampton, Hants 1909
82 39 Richmond GC - Sudbrook Park, Surrey
83 40 Royal Wimbledon GC - Wimbledon, Surrey
84 41 Seaford
85 42 Sheerness
86 43 Shooters Hill
87 44 Silloth on Solway Golf Club in (Cumbria, UK)
88 45 South Herts
89 46 Southampton (distinct from Parkstone in WP list)
90 47 St Peter's, Mablethorpe GC - Mablethorpe, Lincs
91 48 Stanmore
92 49 Stoneham - Southampton, Hampshire 1908
93 50 Sundridge Park
94 51 Sunningdale 1900
95 52 Temple
96 53 Tooting Bec
97 54 Totteridge
98 55 Tynemouth 1914
99 56 Wembley
100 57 West Hill - Woking, Surrey
101 58 West Lancs, Blundellsands
102 59 West Middlesex
103 60 Worplesdon
104
105 WALES

106 1 Dinas Powis Golf Club in Vale of Glamorgan
107 2 Southerndown, Glamorgan
108 3 Barry, Glamorganshire (now defunct)
109
110 IRELAND

111 1 Killarney
112 2 Larne
113 3 Londonderry, Prehen
114 4 Port Stewart
115 5 Waterford
116 6 Tramore
117
118 FRANCE

119 1 Costebelle, Hyeres
120 2 Dinard
121 3 Evians les Bains
122 4 La Boulie, Versailles
123 5 Nieuport Bains, Lombardzide,Ostend
124 6 Rouen
125 7 Dieppe
126
127 MONTE CARLO

128 1 Monte Carlo Golf Club - Mont Agel
129
130 SWITZERLAND

131 1 Vaud, Switzerland
132
133 BELGIUM

134 1 Antwerp
135 2 Lombardzide - Ostende (destroyed WW1)
136
137 AUSTRIA

138 1 Prater, Vienna
139 2 Private course for Count Althann
140
141
142 USA

143 1 Agawam Hunt Club - East Providence, RI 1895
144 2 Ashbourne CC - Cheltenham PA 1923
145 3 Ashland CC aka Bellefonte CC - Ashland, KY 1922
146 4 Ashland GC - Ashland OH 1923
147 5 Atlantic City CC - Northfield, NJ 1921
148 6 Baltimore CC - Roland Park MD 1919
149 7 Battle Creek Country Club - Battle Creek, MI 1920 & 2nd 9 1922
150 8 Berkshire Country Club - Reading, PA 1918
151 9 Boonsboro CC (Lynchburg, VA) - Consultation 1924
152 10 Canoe Brook (Nort) - Milburn, NJ 1920
153 11 Castine Golf Club - Castine. ME 1921
154 12 Chartiers Country Club - Pittsburgh, PA 1919
155 13 Congress Lake CC - Hartville, OH 1924
156 14 Defiance C C - Defiance, OH
157 15 East Liverpool Country Club - East Liverpool. OH 1920
158 16 Elm Terrace GC - West Haven, CT
159 17 Flint Golf Club - Private in Flint MI 1917
160 18 Glen Ridge CC - NJ 1918
161 19 Grant Hugh Brown Pvte course - Goshen, Middletown, NY 1916
162 20 Greate Bay Golf Club aka Ocean City, aka Somers Point - Somers Point, N1J923
163 21 Green Valley CC - Roxboroough, PA 1919
164 22 Happy Valley CC - Asheville N C 1916
165 23 Highland Country Club - IN 1920
166 24 Hot Springs Country Club (Majestic) - Hot Springs AR 1920
167 25 Indiana Country Club - Indiana PA 1919
168 26 Newport GC - named John H. Cain GC from 1965 to 2008 - Newport, NH 1921
169 27 Knollwood CC (White Plains, NY) 1895
170 28 Lake View CC (aka Cascade Hills) - Grand Rapids, MI 1919
171 29 Madison Country Club - Madison,CT 1918 /19
172 30 Maidstone - East Hampton, Long Island, NY 1896 & 1923
173 31 Marion Country Club, The - Marion, OH 1921
174 32 Meadowbrook Country Club - (Grosse Pt,Detroit) Northville, MI 1916
175 33 Metacomet GC - East Providence RI 1919
176 34 Miami Beach GC (Bay Shore) (aka Alton Beach GC) - Miami Beach, FL 1920
177 35 Miami Beach GC (Flamingo) - Miami Beach, FL 1922
178 36 Mill Creek GC - Youngstown, OH 1922
179 37 Milton-Hoosic Club aka Hoosie Whisick - Canton, MA 1916
180 38 Minneapolis Golf Club - Minneapolis, MN 1916
181 39 Misquamicut GC (Watch Hill, RI) (Ross involved later) 1895
182 40 Moon Brook Country Club - Jamestown NY 1918
183 41 New Bedford - Private in North Dartmouth 1916
184 42 New Canaan - Private in New Canaan 1916
185 43 New Haven Country Club - Hamden, CT. 1920
186 44 Newport GC - Newport, RI 1895
187 45 North Jersey C C aka Paterson GC - Paterson, NJ 1916
188 46 Old York Road CC - Jenkintown, Jenkintown, PA (aka The Abington Club) 1920
189 47 Olympia Fields Country Club (No 1) - Olympia Fields, IL 1919
190 48 Olympia Fields Country Club (No 2) -Olympia Fields, IL 1919
191 49 Olympia Fields Country Club (No3) - Olympia Fields, IL 1919
192 50 Olympia Fields Country Club (No4) - Olympia Fields, IL 1922
193 51 Pawtucket Country Club - Pawtucket,RI 1924
194 52 Penn State Uni GC (White) - State College, PA 1921
195 53 Philmont Country Club (North) - Huntingdon Valley, PA 1923
196 54 Pine Lake Country Club (Automobile Club of Dteroit) - Pine Lake, MI 1917
197 55 Pittsburgh Field Club -Pittsburgh PA 1923
198 56 Princess Anne CC - Virginia Beach, VA 1919
199 57 Red Run Golf Club - Private in Royal Oak, Michigan 1917
?? 200 58 Reidsville ?? 1916
201 59 Rhinecliff - Astors private course - Rhinebeck, NY 1895
202 60 Rolling Road Golf Club - Catonsville, MD 1920
203 61 Schuykill CC - Pottsville, PA 1921
204 62 Shelburne Farms (Vanderbilt Webbs) - Shelburne, VT 1896
205 63 Shorehaven GC - East Norwalk, CT 1922
206 64 Shuttle Meadow Country Club - New Britain, CT 1916
207 65 St Albans GC - St Albans, NY 1916
208 66 St Andrews GC - Mount Hope 1896
209 67 St. Johnsbury Country Club - Saint Johnsbury, VT 1923
210 68 Sylvania Country Club - Sylvania, Toledo OH 1916
211 69 Toledo Country Club,The - Toledo, OH 1917
212 70 Tumble Brook Country Club (Red Nine) - Bloomfield, CT 1924
?? 213 71 Unnamed course in Meridian 1916
214 72 Willowdale CC - [now Westwood] (original 9 holes) (Buffalo, NY) 1920
215 73 Woodway Country Club - Darien, CT 1918
216 74 Youghiogheny Country Club - McKeesport, PA 1922
217
218
219 CANADA

220 1 Abitibi Power and Paper Co - Iroquois Falls, Ont
221 2 Beaconsfield GC, (Beaconsfield, QC) [past version]
222 3 Bowness, Calgary
223 4 Brightwood Golf and Country Club in (Dartmouth, NS)
224 5 Calgary Golf and Country Club in Calgary
225 6 Calgary, St Andrew's GC
226 7 Club de Golf Royal Quebec - (Royal course) M. Raddick may have been involved
227 8 Dorval Municipal course - (Dorval, QC) [9 holes, a few are his)
228 9 Islesmere
229 10 Kentville - Nova Scotia
230 11 Le Club Laval-Sur-Le-Lac - (Green Course) in (Laval, Quebec)
231 12 Mount Bruno Country Club, (St-Bruno, QC)
232 13 Ottawa Hunt and Motor Club - Gold - South/West in Ottawa 1920
233 14 Royal Montreal, (Dorval, QC (NLE)) [past versions]
234 15 Royal Quebec GC [Royal course] (Quebec)
235 16 Senneville - Que
236 17 Southwood Golf & Country Club (Winnipeg, Manitoba)
237 18 St Agathe de Monts, 'Laurentian'
238 19 Summerlea Golf & CC. (Lachine, QC) 27 holes (NLE)
239 20 Toronto Hunt - Ont.
240 21 Weston Golf and Country Club in (Weston, Ontario)
241 22 Whitlock Golf & Country Club,?(Hudson-Heights, QC) (A & Charles Murray and James Black 242 23 Winnipeg Golf Club (Winnipeg, Manitoba)
243 24 Winnipeg Hunt Club
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on February 09, 2016, 12:05:04 AM
I took a quick look at your list

Antwerp is in Belgium

Parkstone is in England

Notts had serious revisions

Sunny Old had serious revisions

Western Gailes had some significant revisions

Formby
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html)   

Silloth on Solway
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48672.msg1097997.html#msg1097997 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48672.msg1097997.html#msg1097997)

Temple
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.msg777890.html#msg777890 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.msg777890.html#msg777890)

Worplesdon
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47211.msg1052900.html#msg1052900 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47211.msg1052900.html#msg1052900)

Western Gailes
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61367.msg1460254.html#msg1460254 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61367.msg1460254.html#msg1460254)

Montrose
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56097.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56097.0.html)

Portstewart
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40300.msg847056.html#msg847056 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40300.msg847056.html#msg847056)

Stoneham
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30823.msg597466.html#msg597466 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30823.msg597466.html#msg597466)

I assume you are not separating original designs from redesigns etc.  Below are some courses you may want to investigate

Cooden Beach
Tynemouth
Gog Magog
Aldbeburgh
Berkhampsted
Broadstone

Ciao

Sean,

   Thanks for the info and photo tour links.  I have WPJ doing two Notts courses, which one of the 2 are you referring to?  Gog Magog I believe is already on list.  I was going to separate original from re-designed but I'm not sure right now.  trying to make notations for the time being in regards to renos.  Thanks for Investigation list.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on February 12, 2016, 01:50:11 PM
Here are a few more Willie Park articles:
Toronto Hunt Club-Evening Star-December 20, 1918:

(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/E390D3FD-09B3-4FFD-8B22-917DEFBD76E0.png_zpsgidrq1pb.jpeg)


Woodway, Shuttle Meadow, Catonsville and Toledo-The Hartford Daily Courant-February 8, 1917:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/06404449-3742-4553-AC4F-410B557393B5.png_zpsk2qrokru.jpeg)


La Turbie, Monte Carlo-The Hartford Daily Courant-May 14, 1912
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/C39AC2D6-EA97-42AF-9F93-7514838D04C7.png_zps97ct8cme.jpeg)
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/C7710DC1-3698-487F-80D3-B63C5ABD164A.png_zps5vg6a8em.jpeg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mungo Park on February 12, 2016, 04:58:30 PM
Bret,
Great articles - I think they are all on the list.
Catonsville is Rolling Road, and La Turbie is Monte Carlo GC at Mont Agel. Good to know more about them.

Sean, I am not sure that WP2 did anything at  Bulwell, the Nottingham course before Hollinwell. It was laid out in 1887, so he could have had a hand in it, particularly as John Doleman was a Musselburgh man too. The only reason that I included it on the list was because in WP's 1922 'flyer', 'Nottingham' is shown in the list with a full stop after it, then 'Hollinwell' separately underneath it, again with a full stop. This might have been WP stretching the portfolio a bit, but until we find out, I thought it we could leave it there.

Anyone have any more on a Bulwell / WP link?

Mungo

P S Mrs Forman's, Musselburgh is at risk - see separate thread. Letters of opposition would help before the 17th Feb.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on September 06, 2017, 11:20:48 AM
I'm not sure if this has been posted previously, but I was on the Metacomet website and it seems they attribute their first course at their present site that they moved to around 1918/1919 to their former professional Leonard Byles.

This seems inaccurate in a number of respects.   Byles had indeed been the club's professional prior to the move but a 1928 article about him indicated that he had been the pro at Hot Springs, VA for 11 years at that time, and that he had also spent "several seasons" at Sleepy Hollow after leaving Metacomet, so it's likely that Byles tenure at Metacomet ended around 1914 or so.

This article from the NY Times mentions instead that Willie Park, Jr. was responsible for the original layout at the present site of Metacomet, and in looking back on some old threads here that fact seems confirmed by others including the late Tom MacWood, who wrote;

"The club moved to its present location in 1917-18. Willie Park-Jr. designed a new course at that time but despite the fact it had several very good holes the club was never completely satisfied with the total layout.

Ross redesigned Park's golf course in 1925 and it opened in 1926. It included 12 completely new greens, and nearly 200 bunkers!


In any case this September 14, 1919 article in the NY Times seems to reinforce the fact, in the interest of historical completion and accuracy.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4415/36668651060_b5283490cf_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on September 06, 2017, 12:01:51 PM
...
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on September 06, 2017, 01:15:25 PM
...

Ben,

I missed your response.   If appropriate, can you send me something offline?   Thanks.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on September 06, 2017, 05:33:03 PM
Mike:


That NYT article was posted earlier in the thread.  Park did indeed do the layout for Metacomet's new course, with Ross coming in later to rearrange his work (which was handled by W. H. Follett).


As for Byles, the Annual Guides of 1916 and 1917 note John Anderson as the professional.  So Byles tenure had ended at least by 1916, which was prior to the club's lease running out and their move to new property (with Agawam Hunt taking over the old lease and course).


Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on September 07, 2017, 09:48:59 AM
Sven,

Thanks, I suspected that might have been posted previously but thought the Byles info might be pertinent.

I'm fairly sure the following January 1921 article (seemingly written at the end of the 1920 season) hasn't been posted previously as I recently received it from a friend.   It provides some more meat to the story but raises a few questions, as well.   

Are the holes described in the article still existing?   I haven't played there yet but they seem close to today's, even down to numbering.   

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4441/36687712160_feeb837d24_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4435/37083975575_f987c81148_b.jpg)

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on September 07, 2017, 11:08:36 AM
Mike,


Thanks for posting that article.  I played the course about seven years ago and the picture you provided of the seventh looks very similar to the setting today.  The 16th hole I believe was one of the greens Ross did not change.  The first hole has been rerouted.  Ross slightly altered Park's first green to create today's 10th.  I think the only entirely new hole Ross designed was 11.


I have never seen a Wille Park routing for this course, but if you look at the Donald Ross Online Exhibit through Tufts Archive you can read the individual plans for each hole.  Ross made several comments on using present tees, present greens, etc.  I would recommend checking out the Ross Plans from 1925 for a better picture of what was changed.  Enjoy the course!


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on September 07, 2017, 11:12:53 AM
Thanks for the additional information, Bret.   I'll check out the individual hole comments on the Tufts Archives site, as you suggest.   
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: BCowan on September 07, 2017, 11:01:48 PM
Mike,

   Here is what I posted prior. 

Metacomet- RI  (Park Jr/Redesigned by Ross) A few Park Greens left-13th, 15th and 16th greens.

I don't recall who gave me this info, maybe Bret or Sven or someone else with knowledge,  It's in OP.  I just thought that DR left a few greens like he left the Nichols par 3 at Inverness, which is getting replicated on additional land on the course  :) :) :) :) ....
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Stephen Britton on October 30, 2017, 06:13:17 PM
Does anyone know if there is any original Willie Park Jr left at Rolling Road in Catonsville, MD?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on October 31, 2017, 05:43:40 AM
Does anyone know if there is any original Willie Park Jr left at Rolling Road in Catonsville, MD?


Tons.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Joe Bausch on October 31, 2017, 08:26:14 AM
Does anyone know if there is any original Willie Park Jr left at Rolling Road in Catonsville, MD?


Tons.

Photos of Rolling Road from this past spring:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/RollingRoad/index.html
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Stephen Britton on November 01, 2017, 08:28:40 AM
Does anyone know if there is any original Willie Park Jr left at Rolling Road in Catonsville, MD?


Tons.

Photos of Rolling Road from this past spring:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/RollingRoad/index.html

Any aerials from back in the day? Or the original plans?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Joe Bausch on November 01, 2017, 08:43:23 AM
Does anyone know if there is any original Willie Park Jr left at Rolling Road in Catonsville, MD?


Tons.

Photos of Rolling Road from this past spring:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/RollingRoad/index.html (http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/RollingRoad/index.html)

Any aerials from back in the day? Or the original plans?


I currently don't have any original plans nor early aerials.  But I hope to revisit the course this fall and will inquire.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Joe Bausch on November 01, 2017, 03:17:28 PM
GCAer Josh Bills kindly provided me with three older aerials of Rolling Road.  I've incorporated them near the beginning of my updated Rolling Road photo album:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/RollingRoad/index.html
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Peter Flory on July 02, 2018, 01:03:08 PM
What would be the best preserved example of Willie Park Jr bunkers in America (both shaping and placement)?  Most of what I have seen looks like it was significantly changed over the years- like OFCC north for example. 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Ryan Taylor on January 27, 2021, 11:04:29 AM
What would be the best preserved example of Willie Park Jr bunkers in America (both shaping and placement)?  Most of what I have seen looks like it was significantly changed over the years- like OFCC north for example.


Bump. I've spent time researching this very question and have come to the conclusion that Shuttle Meadow CC is one of the better examples. Bruce Hepner deserves alot of praise. As you may know, extensive aerial photos from the 1930's exist in CN because then Gov. Wilbur L. Cross recommended an aerial survey of the entire state. See CN 1934 Aerial Survey conducted by Fairchild Aerial Surveys, Inc. This makes for easy comparison on Historic Aerials and other sites. I'm just starting to analyze New Haven CC. (Also, New Haven CC recently found WPJ master plan as reported by Anthony Pioppi)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Tim Martin on January 27, 2021, 11:25:03 AM
What would be the best preserved example of Willie Park Jr bunkers in America (both shaping and placement)?  Most of what I have seen looks like it was significantly changed over the years- like OFCC north for example.


Bump. I've spent time researching this very question and have come to the conclusion that Shuttle Meadow CC is one of the better examples. Bruce Hepner deserves alot of praise. As you may know, extensive aerial photos from the 1930's exist in CN because then Gov. Wilbur L. Cross recommended an aerial survey of the entire state. See CN 1934 Aerial Survey conducted by Fairchild Aerial Surveys, Inc. This makes for easy comparison on Historic Aerials and other sites. I'm just starting to analyze New Haven CC. (Also, New Haven CC recently found WPJ master plan as reported by Anthony Pioppi)


Ryan-Shuttle Meadow being Park Jr.ís first eighteen hole U.S. design is incredibly well preserved thanks to a long time dedicated greens chairman. He along with the superintendent are constantly looking at an aerial from around opening day and comparing that to what is in the ground in an effort for it to remain as original as possible. Itís incredibly fun to play and for me stands at the head of the class when compared to the other Park Jr. courses in Connecticut.





Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 11, 2022, 02:11:11 PM
I don't know if Mr. Mungo Park is still participating on GCA to see this.


A possible Willie Park Jr. course that doesn't appear to be on the Park list generated on GCA, I could be wrong, is the second nine holes extension of what is now The Old Course Ranfurly Golf Club. Willie Park "advised" on the extension of the course in 1894, after "prospecting the ground", from nine to eighteen holes for the Ranfurly Castle Golf Club who occupied the course at that time. Newspaper articles concerning Willie Park and the extension can be found on the British Newspaper Archive. Also more info can be found on the Old Course Ranfurly Golf Club website link below. This possible Willie Park extension was mentioned briefly in a 2008 GCA post.


http://www.oldranfurly.com/page.aspx?pid=12915
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 12, 2022, 03:22:30 PM
This is an article from the 1 Sep 1899 Golf Illustrated magazine stating Willie Park Jr. extended the Ranfurly Castle Golf Club course.


(https://i.imgur.com/UxKfLkK.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on March 12, 2022, 03:30:03 PM
Great find, Karl.  Good to see you posting here.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 12, 2022, 03:34:39 PM
Thanks for the bump here. I was very surprised to look at WPJr. list of courses and only find 1 in Illinois. OFCC is his only design and I would have expected more as Chicago had a fair bit of building going on during the early part of the 20th century.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on March 12, 2022, 06:26:41 PM
Karl


It's already on the list as Bridge of Weir which is the town/village where both the Ranfurly courses are (Old Ranfurly which was the original course that WP jnr reputedly did some work and Ranfurly Castle which is the later course). As an aside I have newspaper articles suggesting Willie Fernie consulted at Old Ranfurly at about the same time as WP jnr was supposed to have been there in 1894.


Niall 
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 12, 2022, 07:55:30 PM
Thanks Niall.


I see the Bridge of Weir now on the list. My apologies for the oversight. Is the below Peebles GC Park design on the list under a location name also? The course is NLE according to the Club's website.


Peebles Golf Club listing, 1896 Golfers Guide for the United Kingdom
(https://i.imgur.com/KcAFnym.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: DFarron on March 12, 2022, 08:22:37 PM
As a young pro I worked at both Ashland Golf Club (then Country Club of Ashland) and later at Congress Lake. Both were extremely fun golf courses and the setting at Congress Lake is idealic.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on March 13, 2022, 08:38:50 AM
Karl


Peebles GC is not on the list although Innerleithen is which sits six miles outside Peebles and was designed by Park in 1886. I believe the initial Peebles GC course was designed by Park in 1892 as that record suggests however as per the club website they moved in the 1900's and then subsequently in the 1930's Colt redesigned the new course and not surprisingly they now tag it a Colt course.


Interestingly the land that the Park course sat on appears from google earth to be still used for grazing. For anyone in the area it might be an interesting idea to explore whether any landforms such as tees, greens or bunkers can still be made out.


Niall
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 13, 2022, 08:59:24 AM
DFarron,


There are many early 1920s Ashland, OH Times-Gazette articles written about Willie Park Jr. and the construction of the Ashland Country Club. A touching one is a nice obituary that was written about Park from 1925 and posted below.


Did you know that the second nine holes were added to the Ashland Country Club in 1962 by a local course architect and constructor named Earl F. Yesberger? He also designed, built, owned and operated the nine hole North Olmsted Golf Club. See the additional two images below.


Ashland Country Club article, 25 May 1925 Ashland, OH Times-Gazette newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/sB9wpmT.png)


Ashland Country Club article, 1 Jul 1962 Mansfield, OH News Journal newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/eIh2MtQ.jpg)


Earl Franklin Yesberger obituary, 9 Aug 1988 Akron, OH Beacon Journal newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/b4Ixi4F.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on March 14, 2022, 04:59:41 AM
Just looking at the list of courses on the first page and note that both Goswick and Gorleston are listed as Scottish when they are both English courses. Also, of the two Peterhead courses, Park only designed the first nine of the old course while the new (relief) course was built after his death. You also have a redesign of the original course by the ubiquitous Braid together with 3 of the presumably original holes later being lost to coastal erosion so quite how much Park is left is debateable.


Niall
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 14, 2022, 08:45:06 AM
Niall,


Below is a possible Willie Park Jr. design of the Le Touquet Forest Course. I don't think I see it on the list. The Club's website claims Horace Hutchinson and Club founder Nicholas Lane Jackson designed the course. I can't find so far anything to corroborate either. Looks like J. H. Taylor and Willie Fernie went over the ground years before. See the below images.


Le Touquet Forest Course article, 13 Mar 1903 Golf Illustrated magazine, page 210
(https://i.imgur.com/Thut0ju.jpg)


Le Touquet Forest Course article, 28 May 1904 Navy and Army Illustrated magazine, page 268
(https://i.imgur.com/wiQIt3P.jpg)


Le Touquet Golf Club listing, 1904 The Golfing Annual, page 379
(https://i.imgur.com/a5JNco3.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on March 14, 2022, 11:22:15 AM
Karl


I can't see the attachments on this computer but from memory the order of appearance was Fernie, Taylor and then Hutchinson. I'm not sure if I recall Park looking at the site but then I don't have my notes in front of me. Also weren't the courses comprehensively redesigned by Colt (or was it Simpson ?).


Frank and Philippe might be best placed to answer the question as they have been restoring some of the holes at Le Touquet.


Niall
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 14, 2022, 07:09:42 PM
More on Willie Park Jr. and the original nine holes of the Peebles Golf Club.


Peebles Golf Club article, 21 Oct 1892 Golf magazine, page 90
(https://i.imgur.com/mwwrizC.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 16, 2022, 08:23:49 AM
I don't think this nine hole estate golf course by Willie Park Jr. made the GCA list. Prince Hatzfeldt lived at the now demolished Draycott Park House, near Chippenham, Wiltshire. The property was owned by a Lord Cowley.


Anyone know anymore about it?



Prince Hatzfeldt Estate Course article, 17 Jul 1905 Bristol, England Western Daily Press newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/OCkSIkd.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 18, 2022, 08:12:08 AM
I found these two online links that have photos and a course plan of the original Willie Park Jr. Peebles Golf Club on Morning Hill.


https://www.forgottengreens.com/former-courses-of-existing-clubs/peebles-course/


https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2142676
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mark Pearce on March 18, 2022, 08:42:28 AM
I see that the list has Goswick in both England and Scotland and also lists Berwick upon Tweed.  Berwick upon Tweed is Goswick, unless this is a reference to the Magdalene Fields course, which I doubt.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Jim Sherma on March 18, 2022, 09:59:26 AM
Recently had the great pleasure of replaying Rolling Road in Catonsville, MD. They have finished a fairly significant freshening of the course and it is clicking on all cylinders. Green pads reclaimed, some fairly significant bunker work, some yardage added through very well integrated new tee boxes. The entire property sits on under 95 acres so finding some more yards was not a straightforward task. All in all the course is a great day out and a strong recommendation.


I am gathering more details from my host who is on the greens committee and will follow up with a more detailed post.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 18, 2022, 10:31:05 AM
Mark,


Willie Park Jr.'s early 1920s brochure, that lists a majority of his courses, has both Berwick on Tweed and Goswick listed. My experience so far with this brochure is the listings for the United Kingdom and Europe designs are named by location and not necessarily the Club's name. Berwick on Tweed and Goswick can be two different design efforts or perhaps the same. The brochure also has the possible duplicity of Canon's Park and Edgware listed. God knows there are spelling errors such as Tranmore for Tramore and Newbigging by Sea for Newbiggin by Sea. Below are articles I could find so far for Willie Park Jr. at Berwick on Tweed / Goswick / Magdalene Fields.


Berwick on Tweed article, 17 Nov 1899 Golf Illustrated magazine, page 155
(https://i.imgur.com/6AxJeH9.jpg)


Magdalene Fields Golf Course article, 27 Feb 1903 Golf Illustrated magazine, Volume 15
(https://i.imgur.com/pp0iKak.jpg)


Magdalene Fields Golf Course article, 20 Mar 1903 Golf Illustrated magazine, page 222
(https://i.imgur.com/1lE7dxs.jpg)


Magdalene Fields Golf Course article, 3 Apr 1908 Newcastle upon Tyne, England Daily Chronicle newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/maIV3YO.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on March 18, 2022, 10:48:07 AM
Great stuff, Karl!

One thing that is confusing to me to be aware of in your research is that Park's father, Willie Park Sr. also designed golf courses and was alive until 1903 when he died at the age of 70.

A number of these articles don't differentiate between the two in a meaningful way, just stating "Willie Park".   For instance, a quick glance at Cornish & Whitten's "Architects of Golf" names "Newbiggen-by-the-Sea" as designed by Willie Park, Senior, in 1895.   I don't have time at present to do a deep dive but did want you to be aware of that possible issue.   Thanks!
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 18, 2022, 08:37:38 PM
Great stuff, Karl!

One thing that is confusing to me to be aware of in your research is that Park's father, Willie Park Sr. also designed golf courses and was alive until 1903 when he died at the age of 70.

A number of these articles don't differentiate between the two in a meaningful way, just stating "Willie Park".   For instance, a quick glance at Cornish & Whitten's "Architects of Golf" names "Newbiggen-by-the-Sea" as designed by Willie Park, Senior, in 1895.   I don't have time at present to do a deep dive but did want you to be aware of that possible issue.   Thanks!


Thanks Mike,


The Newbiggin by the Sea nine hole course was laid out by Willie Park Jr.'s uncle Mungo Park, winner of the 1874 Open Championship. Mungo served as golf professional for the Alnmouth Golf Club and is also credited with laying out the Tyneside Golf Club that Willie Park Jr. was the professional and greenskeeper from 1880 to 1883. Willie was only 16 years old at the time.


The Newbiggin course was extended to eighteen holes in 1905 and the long time Alnmouth Club pro George Rochester appears to be credited for it. I don't know what Willie Park Jr.'s involvement was with the course or when. Newbiggin is listed on Park Jr.'s golf course brochure. Perhaps he collaborated with uncle Mungo Park in laying Newbiggin out. I'm guessing. See the below images.


Newbiggin by the Sea Golf Club listing, 1893 The Golfing Annual, page 279
(https://i.imgur.com/cX84KUL.jpg)


Newbiggin by the Sea Golf Club article, 10 Jun 1905 London, England The Guardian newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/bsdc5ml.jpg)


Willie Park Jr. golf courses early 1920s advertisement
(https://i.imgur.com/tQe56YY.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 18, 2022, 10:34:00 PM
Karl,


The last list you posted is the most comprehensive listing I have seen of Parkís work. Do you have an exact date for this Park advertisement? Madison Country Club, Country Club of New Canaan and Country Club of New Bedford are three listings you donít typically see in other Park advertisements. I am sure there are many others, but Madison and New Canaan are two courses we have zero information on Parkís involvement, other than both clubs claiming they are Park courses.  This would likely answer where that information originally came from. Nice find!


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mike Worth on March 18, 2022, 10:42:43 PM
I donít see Castine ME on the list. Designed 1921?
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 19, 2022, 06:22:46 AM
Karl,


The last list you posted is the most comprehensive listing I have seen of Parkís work. Do you have an exact date for this Park advertisement? Madison Country Club, Country Club of New Canaan and Country Club of New Bedford are three listings you donít typically see in other Park advertisements. I am sure there are many others, but Madison and New Canaan are two courses we have zero information on Parkís involvement, other than both clubs claiming they are Park courses.  This would likely answer where that information originally came from. Nice find!


Bret



Bret,


I do not know an exact date of the Park Jr. publication nor do I have it recorded where I came across it on the Internet. Perhaps somewhere in the GCA past postings. Ashland Golf Club in Ohio is listed from 1921 and Willie died in 1925. With a bit of calculation one could narrow it down by the courses listed. I have not explored Park's works thoroughly to make a better estimate.


Brett,




I do not know an exact date of the Park Jr. publication nor do I have it recorded where I came across it on the Internet. Perhaps somewhere in the GCA past postings. Ashland Golf Club in Ohio is listed from 1921 and Willie died in 1925. With a bit of calculation one could narrow it down by the courses listed. I have not explored Park's works thoroughly to make a better estimate.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 19, 2022, 06:30:01 AM
I donít see Castine ME on the list. Designed 1921?


Mike,


Castine is on the list. It is under Tumble Brook Country Club towards the top on the right hand side of the page.


Karl
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Mike Worth on March 19, 2022, 09:35:38 AM
I donít see Castine ME on the list. Designed 1921?


Thank you. How about Atlantic City country club? Didnít he work on that in the mid-1910s?


Mike,


Castine is on the list. It is under Tumble Brook Country Club towards the top on the right hand side of the page.


Karl
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 19, 2022, 10:15:30 AM
Karl,


Thank you for your reply.  The closest estimate I can come up with is early 1922.  Judging by the listing for Mt. Bruno they had selected the site for a Championship but likely hadnít played it yet.  A course that didnít make the list is Shorehaven Country Club in Norwalk, CT, which Willie had visited as early as April 1922.


Here is an article about Willie Park at Shorehaven from April 03, 1922:  This course was designed by Park, but constructed by Robert White when Park went back to Scotland. There are a few Shorehaven articles in this thread, but Iím not sure this one has been posted.


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(19).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/b90b51ea-414e-4a92-847b-394500617ff1)


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 20, 2022, 09:08:12 AM
Karl,


Thank you for your reply.  The closest estimate I can come up with is early 1922.  Judging by the listing for Mt. Bruno they had selected the site for a Championship but likely hadnít played it yet.  A course that didnít make the list is Shorehaven Country Club in Norwalk, CT, which Willie had visited as early as April 1922.


Here is an article about Willie Park at Shorehaven from April 03, 1922:  This course was designed by Park, but constructed by Robert White when Park went back to Scotland. There are a few Shorehaven articles in this thread, but Iím not sure this one has been posted.


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(19).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/b90b51ea-414e-4a92-847b-394500617ff1)


Bret


Bret,


I can't explain why Shorehaven CC is not on the brochure advertisement. Perhaps it is not perfect, lord knows it has spelling errors. The Maidstone Club in Easthampton, Long Island is on the brochure advertisement. The earliest I have found Park Jr.'s name associated with the Maidstone Club extension is Dec 1922 and work on the added course was still going on in Mar 1924 after Willie had returned to Scotland in Oct 1923 and his brother Jack Park had left the Club as their professional. See the below images.


BTW, Do you know what the eighteen hole design of Park Jr.'s was in Syracuse, NY? It is mentioned in the below 1923 newspaper clipping. I know that Park did some preliminary work for a Springfield, MA municipal golf course project that appears did not happen till after Willie's death sometime in the late 1920s by Stiles and Van Kleek.


Karl


Maidstone Club article, 1 Dec 1922 New York, NY Evening Post newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/oGxYyqA.jpg)


Willie Park article, 12 Jul 1923 Washington, DC Times newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/X6NRKc7.jpg)


Willie Park Jr. Sails Away article, 24 Oct 1923 New York, NY The Sun and The Globe newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/2YOT6Wa.jpg)


Maidstone Club article, 5 Mar 1924 New York, NY Evening Post newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/A6f3iSD.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on March 20, 2022, 09:44:12 AM
Karl,


Great stuff.  Anything on Gullane?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Joe Bausch on March 20, 2022, 04:41:42 PM
Since the original starter of this thread can't edit the original post, I thought I would provide the photo albums I have of courses designed by WP, Jr in full or part.


Rolling Road:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/RollingRoad/index.html


Atlantic City CC:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/AtlanticCity_2020/index.html


Greate Bay:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/GreateBay_2020/index.html


Maidstone:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Maidstone/index.html


Sylvania:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Sylvania/index.html


Ashbourne:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/AshbourneCC/index.html


Berkshire:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Berkshire_2021/index.html


Philmont North:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/PhilmontNorth_2019/index.html


Pittsburgh FC:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/PittsburghFieldClub/index.html


Schuylkill:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Schuylkill_2021/index.html


Princess Anne:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/PrincessAnne/index.html

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 20, 2022, 05:08:37 PM
Karl,


Great stuff.  Anything on Gullane?  Thanks.


Mike Cirba,


I can find evidence of the No. 2 course being laid out in 1899 by the Gullane GC. Four different clubs used the courses, Gullane, East Lothian, Dirleton Castle and Gullane Nine Golf Clubs. I can also find evidence of the No. 3 course being laid out in 1910. Nothing attaches Willie Park Jr.'s name to either nor any rearrangement of the No. 1 course that I have found. The Gullane GC website does say it was Willie Park Jr. and Gullane is listed on his brochure advertisement.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on March 21, 2022, 07:26:49 PM
Mike/Karl


Archie Baird's book gives the story re no. 2 and no. 3.


"the end of the 19th century approached with a golf at Gullane booming. In 1898 a second, or relief, course was suggested. Willie Park junior was asked to look at the ground and direct the laying out of the new course. He came down from Musselburgh three times and went over the new course, giving his advice. He submitted an account for ten guineas. The committee of Gullane Club considered this excessive and directed the secretary to request Mr Park to modify his account. This Mr Park declined to do, so the amount was paid in full."


Later on there is a reference to no. 3 being built in 1910 for the cost of £1,000 but frustratingly no mention of the architect. I hadn't looked at the book for a few years and had thought it confirmed Park as the architect of no. 3 but couldn't find any reference.


Niall



Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on March 22, 2022, 05:47:58 AM
Should have added re Gullane, the original 7 hole course dates back to the 1840's and then finally went to 18 holes in early 1880's. Judging by the plan of the course in the book, when the relief course or no.2 was built, I'd suggest that some of the holes for no.1 were incorporated into no.2 and new holes built for no.1 so it wasn't just a case of adding a new course. Could be wrong about that but that is how it appears to me from a quick look at the plans.


Also no.3 ground was held under a separate lease which again suggests to me that when they built it in 1910 that it was an additional course and didn't impinge on either no.2 or no.1. As ever, could be wrong about that. The book includes a series of maps done by B. Hall Blyth of the different courses. Apparently they were hanging up in the clubhouse at one point but I can't recall seeing them the last time I was in the main clubhouse which admittedly was nearly 20 years ago.


Niall
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Sven Nilsen on March 22, 2022, 08:15:21 AM

BTW, Do you know what the eighteen hole design of Park Jr.'s was in Syracuse, NY? It is mentioned in the below 1923 newspaper clipping.


Karl

Willie Park article, 12 Jul 1923 Washington, DC Times newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/X6NRKc7.jpg)



Karl:


First I've seen of the Syracuse reference.


The most likely candidates are:


Bradford Hills - only 9 holes built, and
Golfmore - opened in 1926


Sven
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 22, 2022, 09:17:58 AM
Thanks Sven.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 22, 2022, 09:21:46 AM
Karl,


I have never seen a reference to Willie Park at Syracuse.  Thanks for posting these articles.  They are a great addition.


 I have several articles from Canadian Golfer that Iíve been meaning to post on here.  I will try to get them up here this week.  The Canadian Golfer articles cover a great deal of Willie Parkís work throughout Canada.


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 22, 2022, 09:28:27 AM
Here is an Instruction by Illustration featuring Park from a 1901 Golf Illustrated:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/IMG_3484.JPG) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/81459cd6-081f-465d-90c4-1fc0ff953b73)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on March 22, 2022, 09:34:22 AM
Thanks, Niall & Karl!

I was actually with Ron Whitten recently but forgot to ask him the source of the Willie Park, Sr. attribution for Gullane #1 in "The Architects of Golf" that he co-wrote with Geoffrey Cornish.    Perhaps I'll send him a follow-up query but I also know he's really busy at the moment.



Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 22, 2022, 09:38:52 AM
Niall and Mike Cirba,


Below are images from The Golfing Annual for 1898-99, 1900-01, 1901-02 and 1909-10. Looks like there was an old course, then a new course in 1898-99, then a rearrangement in 1901-02 and finally a 3rd course in 1909-10 that was rearranged with the old and new. Willie Park Jr. must have been proud of his work there because Gullane is listed on two below 1916 advertisements. Willie arrived in the US on 14 Apr 1916 and by the end of the year had quite a few design projects in the works.


Karl


Gullane listing, 1898-99 The Golfing Annual
(https://i.imgur.com/6TC9peV.jpg)


Gullane listing, 1900-01 The Golfing Annual
(https://i.imgur.com/55fFiwK.jpg)


Gullane listing, 1901-02 The Golfing Annual
(https://i.imgur.com/8KrdrdF.jpg)


Gullane listing, 1909-10 The Golfing Annual
(https://i.imgur.com/KqC0HwU.jpg)


Willie Park Jr. golf courses, Jun 1916 Golfers Magazine
(https://i.imgur.com/0l8ZRDc.jpg)


Willie Park Jr. golf courses advertisement, Dec 1916 The Golf Course Magazine
(https://i.imgur.com/ENt3xVw.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on March 22, 2022, 09:45:48 AM
Brilliant, Karl...thanks!
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 23, 2022, 07:14:32 AM
Karl,


I have never seen a reference to Willie Park at Syracuse.  Thanks for posting these articles.  They are a great addition.


 I have several articles from Canadian Golfer that Iíve been meaning to post on here.  I will try to get them up here this week.  The Canadian Golfer articles cover a great deal of Willie Parkís work throughout Canada.


Bret


Bret,


Below are images from the Canadian Golfer magazine concerning Willie Park Jr. and the Abitibi Golf Club in Iroquois Falls, Ontario. Abitibi is listed on Park Jr.'s advertisement brochure. Park Jr. designed the course in 1920.


Interesting, the below 1929 hole by hole description of the nine hole course. There are six par 3 holes in which five of them are from 220 to 245 yards. Seems an unusual course layout let alone the monstrous length par 3s for that age.


Does anyone have an opinion? Would Willie Park Jr. have designed such a 1929 course? By 1938 a newspaper article below states the course had a new layout. The nine hole Abitibi Golf Club is still open for play today.


Abitibi Golf Club article, Jul 1920 Canadian Golfer magazine, page 186
(https://i.imgur.com/MWm3ZnT.jpg)


Abitibi Golf Club article, Jan 1929 Canadian Golfer magazine, page 741
(https://i.imgur.com/EWAUxBo.jpg)


Abitibi Golf Club article, Jan 1929 Canadian Golfer magazine, page 742
(https://i.imgur.com/OckeKkw.jpg)


Abitibi Golf Club article, 2 Sep 1938 North Bay, Ontario Nugget newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/sAjZGgR.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 23, 2022, 09:39:31 AM
Karl,


I canít say for sure whether Willie Park Jr. designed the layout you posted in 1929.  If you look in the American Annual Golf Guides for 1926, 1929 and 1930-31, the course is listed at 3 different lengths in three separate years.


In 1926 Abitibi was a 2,950 yard,  9-hole course established in 1921. 
In 1929 Abitibi was a 2,604 yard, 9-hole course established in 1925
In 1930-1931 Abitibi was a 2,620 yard, Par 34, 9-hole course established in 1925.


To me it sounds like the course may have been reestablished in 1925 and they seemed to tinker with the layout regularly. The guides are sometimes unreliable, so itís hard to say if Willie designed the course you posted in 1929.  It would be helpful to find more information on this club to answer your question.


Bret





Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 23, 2022, 10:21:02 AM
I have several Canadian Golfer articles to post concerning Willie Park Jr.ís work in Canada.  The first article is from June 1916 announcing Willie Park coming to The United States.


Canadian Golfer., June 1916:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(58).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/087bc485-aaad-4801-b128-8cdd0363b76a)


Willie Park visits Canada in late 1917, early 1918.
Canadian Golfer., January 1918:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(57).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/ba10c35c-c9bb-47d1-a0f9-b77b246816ef)


By December of 1918, Willie Park accepts a position at Mount Bruno Golf Club.
Canadian Golfer., December 1918:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(56).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/923cee70-8823-4e59-bfe1-30cce7c7ef8c)


An advertisement from 1919 listing Mount Bruno as Willie Parkís Canadian address.
Canadian Golfer., March 1919:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(55).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/38195c14-e04d-4193-a3a1-2c8874f8348f)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 23, 2022, 10:38:52 AM

This article lists some of the Canadian courses Willie Park is working on in 1919, including Mt. Bruno, Brightwood, Winnipeg, and Laval-sur-le-Lac. The article also notes he is working on Atlantic City Country Club in New Jersey.

Canadian Golfer., July 1919:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(54).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/90dea427-c1b3-4176-8c07-f6a07b869b30)


Willie Park, recently back from Winnipeg is now working on the the Beaconsfield course in Montreal.


Canadian Golfer., August 1919 (lower left):


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(53).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/fceb40a5-36de-4d5e-afe9-fa52da367e0c)


ďWillie Park of Montreal tells Britishers Some Interesting Things About the Royal and Ancient ďOver HereĒĒ   The advertisement included on the second page of this article now lists Parkís Canadian address as: 133 King St. East, Toronto, Ontario.


Canadian Golfer., March 1920:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(52).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/34df3660-d550-4537-af60-831d6668b9b6)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(51).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/d7cdaba4-9daf-475d-918b-fa786ef72c2d)




Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 23, 2022, 01:06:24 PM
I will keep these in chronological order as opposed to separating the stories by club.  These articles cover courses Park worked on, but many of these courses have changed since 1920. I will need some help from our Canadian friends in sorting out which courses are still Park and which no longer exist, or have moved.  This is more of a resume of Parkís Canadian work in the 1920ís and confirms some of the courses listed in this thread.


Willie Park to design an 18-hole course for Ottawa Hunt and Motor Club.


Canadian Golfer., April 1920:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(50).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/e0ff265b-d5b5-434c-8c3a-ad3dd3a7b175)


This article doesnít mention Willie Park, but there is an impressive illustration showing the planned Mount Bruno Clubhouse.



Canadian Golfer., May 1920:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(49).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/266d5a36-ff42-49e9-9f49-d1d82a586f5d)




Willie Park visited Weston in April of 1920 to design an 18-hole course.


Canadian Golfer., May 1920:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(48).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/36fbce4e-63da-4e1e-a06b-bfca36527aa4)


From the same Canadian Golfer., May 1920:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(47).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/1b03503d-11cd-4ab6-91b0-0039eda7786d)






Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 23, 2022, 03:43:13 PM
Karl,


I canít say for sure whether Willie Park Jr. designed the layout you posted in 1929.  If you look in the American Annual Golf Guides for 1926, 1929 and 1930-31, the course is listed at 3 different lengths in three separate years.


In 1926 Abitibi was a 2,950 yard,  9-hole course established in 1921. 
In 1929 Abitibi was a 2,604 yard, 9-hole course established in 1925
In 1930-1931 Abitibi was a 2,620 yard, Par 34, 9-hole course established in 1925.


To me it sounds like the course may have been reestablished in 1925 and they seemed to tinker with the layout regularly. The guides are sometimes unreliable, so itís hard to say if Willie designed the course you posted in 1929.  It would be helpful to find more information on this club to answer your question.


Bret


Bret,


Thanks for pointing me to The American Annual Golf Guides. I compiled the image below of all the Abitibi Golf Club listings. Seems the course was probably 2950 yards as Willie Park Jr. designed it. Then something happened in 1927 when the length went down to 2490 yards and the Club went from being established in 1921 to the new date of 1925. By 1929 the course length was up to 2604-05 yards and in 1930-31 it was 2620 yards. Today's Abitibi GC nine hole course is like 3000 yards. I'm pretty certain the Club remains at the same ground, next to the now closed Abitibi Paper Mill as can be seen on modern aerial photos. I have not been able to locate any historic aerial photos that show any detail of the course.


Abitibi Golf Club listings, 1921-31 The American Annual Golf Guide
(https://i.imgur.com/I3eOfSY.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 25, 2022, 08:56:52 AM
Here are some more Willie Park articles from the Canadian Golfer 1921 and 1922:


Work is underway at Ottawa Hunt and Motor Club with Carters Tested Seeds in charge of construction.
Canadian Golfer., January 1921:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(59).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/0847edb5-938f-4b50-94d7-db489d50c224)


Improvements and alterations suggested by Willie Park at Birds Hill in Winnipeg.
Canadian Golfer., July 1921:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(46).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/2c26580f-8e4a-4756-97af-eb8fd52de75d)


Winnipeg Golf Club at Birds Hill holds the Twenty-third Annual Canadian Amateur Championship won by Frank Thompson.  Some of Willie Parkís work is noted in this article on the second page.
Canadian Golfer., September 1921:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(45).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/cb0f8791-6fd8-4113-9403-217cc127c487)


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(44).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/bf629779-9de3-466a-b40a-ccb2a21ac4cb)


Willie Park with a suggestion on pace of play.
Canadian Golfer., January 1922:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(43).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/806475c0-b832-4c44-a190-546cf5fab696)


Recalling when Willie Park was made an Honorary Member of the Royal Musselburgh.
Canadian Golfer., March 1922:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(42).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/233198bb-a0f2-4f66-92dc-fecbccfb35dd)


Southwood Golf Club, Winnipeg secured the land of the old Winnipeg Hunt Club. Willie Park designed an 18-hole course on this property and work was started in the Fall of 1919. The course is described in this feature on Southwood Golf Club.
Canadian Golfer., April 1922:




(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(41).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/e0105ce7-0ef0-400c-8952-97c81b948e0d)


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(40).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/9087367d-d083-4437-be80-eb40b70fc009)


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(39).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/97e09931-ca7d-4a23-80c7-c390904f6289)


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(38).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/5edca72e-7ba8-436c-8ea6-d16ac475188b)


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(37).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/6ef5d466-ff2f-4c47-831f-053dc6fb8c99)


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(36).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/08142927-d88c-434a-adcd-d3a49e07ec55)


Abitibi Paper Company is mentioned again in April 1922.  Karl posted an article on Abitibi from 1920, earlier in this thread.


Canadian Golfer., April 1922:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(35).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/73137dd3-ba8b-4782-b377-41374b664dd5)

Willie Park makes suggestions at Calgary Golf and Country Club, Bowness and St. Andrews in Calgary. This article also mentions he has two courses in Pittsburgh to lay out.
Canadian Golfer., May 1922:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(34).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/b8e6ed6b-3a8f-4729-82f1-936c6a3e9e39)


Willie Park designs 27 holes for Summerlea Golf Club in Montreal.
Canadian Golfer., May 1922


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(33).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/9a048e4c-e3de-47af-a22a-9ab839a52299)


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(32).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/1895c194-17c1-4fe8-b73e-36f61f65ad9a)


A second article on Summerlea Golf Club, Montreal. Willie Park has personally supervised the finishing of each green.
Canadian Golfer., August 1922


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(31).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/864fc6a5-bf63-4acb-8992-168a3ea04111)


Southwood Golf Club of Winnipeg is being rounded into shape.
Canadian Golfer., September 1922:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(30).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/2ab473dc-4f2c-4630-986e-69a0e54a66d6)


An article from 1923 suggests that Parkís plans to revamp the Calgary Golf and Country Club course have been accepted.


Canadian Golfer., March 1923:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(24).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/a038978c-2d49-4ee5-bf67-57e1f189ad3e)




Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 25, 2022, 11:36:39 AM
Willie Park on Putting.
Canadian Golfer., May 1924:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(29).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/81af3d80-570f-4e2c-8bdb-7f10bb229a5d)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(28).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/120441b0-b239-478a-a578-6d74d0d540e4)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(27).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/07359fde-b4c9-4818-b447-ea4c98806417)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(26).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/79d00554-7192-4fbe-8235-6b43bd1ec137)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(25).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/0279ad5a-3cd7-4687-8541-9066d738a734)



Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on March 25, 2022, 11:43:32 AM
@Bret - I don't know if this is published anywhere, but my club, Scarboro Golf and Country Club, spoke to or perhaps even retained Willie to renovate the course in the summer/autumn of 1924.  My understanding is that Willie returned to Scotland over the winter, late in 1924, and died in the spring of 1925.  So Scarboro looked for someone else and eventually retained Tillinghast.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 25, 2022, 12:26:59 PM
Wayne,


That is interesting information.  I have never seen a reference to Willie Park at Scarboro Country Club before. Iíd be curious to know if Carters Tested Seeds was responsible for constructing Scarboro?    Tillinghast had ties to Carters as well. If Willie Park was retained by the Scarboro club it was likely earlier than 1924, unless it was by mail.


Karl posted an article earlier on this page that reported Willie Park was sailing back to Scotland in October of 1923.  Willie Park spent 1924 in Scotland trying to regain his health before passing away in 1925. 


Thanks for this information.


Bret

Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on March 25, 2022, 12:44:32 PM
Not sure about Carters - Scarboro was built in 1912 and originally a George Cumming design.  Apparently the reason that the course was built was that East Toronto golfers wanted another course since in 1910 or so TGC moved from the East End of Toronto, from what is now sometimes called the Upper Beach, to Dixie Rd in Mississauga. In the 1920s the club decided that they wanted to upgrade the course and started looking for an architect.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 25, 2022, 01:16:24 PM
Here are the last three articles I have from the Canadian Golfer.


Boischatel Course designed by Willie Park is to be formally opened this coming season.
Canadian Golfer., February 1925:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(23).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/6d2bf940-9906-47fa-8ea7-38e40f6491f5)


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(22).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/595afcbd-59e3-46b0-ab5b-376d861ec5a2)


Weston Golf Club claims to be the last course in Canada to be laid out by Willie Park.
Canadian Golfer., May 1925:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(21).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/5f08142f-4d9e-474b-b1d1-be7ca5dcbdfb)


A tribute to Willie Park from J. H. Taylor.
Canadian Golfer., June 1925:


(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/FullSizeRender(20).jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/504708cc-6ce5-4381-a9e3-43438914fa7c)


 I am sure there are more Park articles in their archives. Searching for specific courses  would also likely yield more articles. If anyone would like to search the site, visit the link below. They have an excellent search function which allows you to easily search within each publication. 


https://canadiangolfer.golfcanada.ca/page/Canadian-Golfer (https://canadiangolfer.golfcanada.ca/page/Canadian-Golfer)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 27, 2022, 08:59:03 AM
Mentioned elsewhere on GCA but not as a part of this thread nor on the Willie Park Jr. advertisement brochure are Park Jr.'s improvement prepared plans for the Royal Ottawa Golf Club. See images below.


Royal Ottawa Golf Club article, Jun 1925 The Canadian Golfer magazine, page 145
(https://i.imgur.com/uIYhtFU.jpg)


Royal Ottawa Golf Club article, Jun 1925 The Canadian Golfer magazine, page 147
(https://i.imgur.com/von1gx2.jpg)


Royal Ottawa Golf Club article, Jun 1925 The Canadian Golfer magazine, page 148
(https://i.imgur.com/Q47Jll3.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 28, 2022, 01:06:59 PM
Interesting film footage in the link below of an 1898 match between Willie Park Jr. and Willie Fernie at Musselburgh. I enjoy seeing these early historic golf videos and wanted to share it with those who haven't seen this one.


https://mobile.twitter.com/hainesy76/status/946837766263988225
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 28, 2022, 01:15:13 PM
Karl wow that is cool.  Caddies teeing up your ball, buttoned up suit jackets and swings that are anything but what we would call modern looking. Even the short chips were so much feel, I think those with great hands back then really shined.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on March 28, 2022, 02:18:08 PM
I think both men were putting at the end of the video. Cool to see Park Jr. make a putting stroke when he would go on to write the book The Art of Putting in 1920 and be referred to in many period articles as the greatest putter.


Willie Park Jr. The Art of Putting book
(https://i.imgur.com/A4W8h0T.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: MCirba on March 28, 2022, 02:55:47 PM
Karl, et.al.,

The following is from Melvyn Morrow who asked me to post this for him;

Golf Club Atlas topic by Karl Jensen ď Ferndown Golf CourseĒ constructed in 1913, was designed by, and overseen by - well just check out the two short articles from 1913.
The first from The Standard, from Monday the 27th March 1913 and from Sheffield Daily Telegraph dated Saturday 12th April 1913. - hopefully it becomes clear.Anyone who knows Karl, could you please pass this onto him or post it on GCA. -  many thanks.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51967491039_5eb9462352_o.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51967496194_e96a6e35a6_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on April 01, 2022, 07:11:13 AM
This is a possible Willie Park Jr. design in Ohio that is not on his brochure advertisement. I found this newspaper article a couple years ago and have not been able to corroborate it. It is quite possible given Park Jr.'s design of the Ashland Country Club in Ashland, OH during the same time frame. Unfortunately the golf course has been bulldozed for a housing development in the past two years. See the below 1922 newspaper article image and the below link to photos of the bulldozed course.


Brookside Country Club article, 20 Jun 1922 Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/APYhwwJ.jpg)


https://www.addisonprops.com/properties-communities-new/brookside-greens
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Niall C on April 01, 2022, 10:15:20 AM
Karl,


I commend you, and Brett, for all your efforts. Can I ask you though, as well as listing where WP jnr has been, are you also compiling what he has done at each course and whether any of his work remains ? From a cursory run through of the courses listed in the OP it is clear that quite a few are not original WP designs and have had significant alterations after he was there. It would be good to record that.


From experience, I find it frustrating that over here in the UK and in particular in Scotland, any course that Braid consulted on gets tagged a Braid when his input might have been minimal. Anyway, apologies for whinging and well done on your work.


Niall


ps. Peter Lewis is of the opinion that the Fernie/Park footage is the earliest footage of professionals playing golf.
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on April 01, 2022, 12:55:55 PM
Karl,


I commend you, and Brett, for all your efforts. Can I ask you though, as well as listing where WP jnr has been, are you also compiling what he has done at each course and whether any of his work remains ? From a cursory run through of the courses listed in the OP it is clear that quite a few are not original WP designs and have had significant alterations after he was there. It would be good to record that.


From experience, I find it frustrating that over here in the UK and in particular in Scotland, any course that Braid consulted on gets tagged a Braid when his input might have been minimal. Anyway, apologies for whinging and well done on your work.


Niall


ps. Peter Lewis is of the opinion that the Fernie/Park footage is the earliest footage of professionals playing golf.


Niall,


Even though I have folders on each Willie Park Jr. course that is known or I have discovered some Park Jr. involvement with, I have not gone into great detail such as other GCA contributors. One has to be careful reading the tea leafs, so to say, of reports in newspapers which may be inaccurate. GCA is a good litmus test for any new finds and even challenging long held facts that turn out to be incorrect.


Below is a link to another early golf video of Vardon vs. Braid in 1904.


Karl


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIsVJUiD4II&t=2s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIsVJUiD4II&t=2s)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on April 02, 2022, 08:12:39 AM
Out of the many images I have collected of Willie Park Jr., below are two images of Willie as a golf architect in the field. The first image is Willie at the Tumble Brook Country Club in Bloomfield, CT. The second image is Willie at the Elm Terrace Country Club in West Haven, CT. Both were taken in 1922.


Elm Terrace Country Club was short lived, being converted to a housing development in 1926. Tumble Brook Country Club still exists and I have included a link below to the full page newspaper article in which I snipped the photo from.


Willie Park Jr. photo, 26 Nov 1922 Hartford, CT Daily Courant newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/ZjZdJyc.jpg)


Willie Park Jr. on right, West Haven history book, Carole McElrath, 2005
(https://i.imgur.com/nwM554U.jpg)


https://www.newspapers.com/image/369368184/?terms=%22willie%20park%22&match=1
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Bret Lawrence on April 02, 2022, 10:40:20 AM
Karl,


I commend you, and Brett, for all your efforts. Can I ask you though, as well as listing where WP jnr has been, are you also compiling what he has done at each course and whether any of his work remains ? From a cursory run through of the courses listed in the OP it is clear that quite a few are not original WP designs and have had significant alterations after he was there. It would be good to record that.


From experience, I find it frustrating that over here in the UK and in particular in Scotland, any course that Braid consulted on gets tagged a Braid when his input might have been minimal. Anyway, apologies for whinging and well done on your work.


Niall


ps. Peter Lewis is of the opinion that the Fernie/Park footage is the earliest footage of professionals playing golf.


Niall,


I appreciate the comments.  I have not personally tried to compile a list of Willie Parkís work at each course.  It would be a very large undertaking suited for a Society.  Willie Park is probably the most prolific international golf architect without a Golf Society, at least in the United States.


The reason I enjoy participating in this thread is the collaborative effort from people all over the world.  No one is really an expert on Willie Park and we can all learn together from each others experiences and stories.  I think Ben initially tried to do as you suggested when he started this thread, but as the list grew larger, the details became smaller.  Mungo noted that he was more interested in the whereabouts of a Willie Park, than the actual work he performed. 


I think anyone that wants to take on the task of analyzing each course can start with this thread.  Several of his courses have been broken down into more detail.  I also hear your argument concerning Braid.  Willie Park did not get the same treatment as Braid or Ross.  There are courses like CC of New Bedford, where we hadnít re-discovered the Park connection until very recently which brings up one more point.


Some of the other golf societies jumped the gun on their architect and gave them credit for many courses they had no involvement in. They would find one article mentioning the course and speculate their architect built it.  With this thread, itís nice to see the data being gathered before itís analyzed prematurely.  Itís also nice to see that with Park you donít have to make as many corrections to the list as you do additions.  I agree a list should be compiled, but it will take a group effort from people in every region Park built a golf course.


Bret
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on April 02, 2022, 11:26:28 AM
Lots to be discovered about Willie Park Jr. and the golfing Park family of Inveresk, Scotland. This is the death notice for Willie Park Sr.'s brother Archie that I knew nothing about. Archie is buried at St. Michael Cemetery in Inveresk along with Willie Sr., Willie Jr. and other Park family members.


Archibald Park, Willie Sr.'s brother death notice, 13 Sep 1911 Liverpool, England Daily Post and Mercury newspaper
(https://i.imgur.com/XH93RbV.jpg)
Title: Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
Post by: Karl Jensen on May 05, 2022, 08:11:40 AM
I don't think the NLE Balerno Golf Club of Dean Park, Midlothian made the Willie Park Jr. list nor his 1920s golf course advertisement. Perhaps some one else knows more?


See the below link and two images.


https://www.forgottengreens.com/forgotten-greens/mid-lothian-balerno/


Balerno Golf Club mention, 29 Dec 1897 London, England Pall Mall Gazette newspaper

(https://i.imgur.com/CodNifQ.jpg)


Balerno Golf Club listing, 1898 The Golfing Annual
(https://i.imgur.com/RoOMQsX.jpg)