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Kyle Harris

Willie Park, Jr.
« on: March 01, 2005, 01:30:24 PM »
Does anybody on here know of Willie Park, Jr.'s trips to the US? I know he made one in 1922... but were there any others?

Also, anything notable about his design work or his rendering style?

Robert Thompson

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Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2005, 01:35:36 PM »
Kyle: He was at Royal Montreal in 1912, and I'd be surprised if he didn't get to the U.S. at that point. That said, there are a lot of Park courses in Canada (Weston, Hunt Club, etc.).


Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2005, 01:42:25 PM »
Tom MacWood will probably know the details, but I think Park was based in North America for a number of years during the 1920s.

As my friend Robert points out above, he did a lot of early, revolutionary work in Canada at places like Calgary G&CC, Ottawa Hunt, Weston in Toronto, Montreal's Mount Bruno, and elsewhere.
jeffmingay.com

Jeff Goldman

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Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2005, 01:59:27 PM »
His most notable designs in the U.S. are probably The Maidstone Club and the North Course at Olympia Fields.  Although Tom MacWood did post some comments a few years ago, there has been relatively little discussion of him on this board, probably because not many people know much about him and many of his courses have been modified a lot.  I think he was also a forerunner in the development of inland golf in England.  Known as a great putter.

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

wsmorrison

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2005, 02:16:20 PM »
According to Jim Finegan, Willie Park made several short visits to the US at the turn of the century.  He arrived in 1916 for an extended period.  Finegan said that Willie Park, Jr. laid out 40 courses in 17 states and 20 Canadian courses in 5 provinces.

In our area:

1908 Philmont South
1919 Berkshire
1923 Greate Bay

JNagle

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Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2005, 02:18:29 PM »
Kyle -

The following excerpt is from Willie Park Jr's book - The Game of Golf.  This provides a little insight into his philosophy.


Page 200                          

very sparingly laid down, because they are likely to prove what has not inaptly been termed 'levellers'— that is to say, the ball can be driven on to the green in two strokes by anybody, and it may be that. at such holes, if not guarded, there is little advantage in getting away a good drive, because, even if the drive is foozled, any ordinary player can put his ball on the putting-green with his second stroke. The result is, that one man who has driven a good shot may have a short approach to play, while another who has got a bad drive, or who has foozled his stroke, will only have a longer approach to play, and his mistake will thus cost him very little. Of course in this case there is an advantage in having to play the shorter approach; but, generally speaking, a mistake ought to pay a greater penalty than merely increased length of approach. If there be judiciously placed hazards, such an objection cannot hold good, as a foozled drive is practically certain to be punished. It is not possible to lay down ideal distances, because so much depends upon the nature of the ground. For instance, on a flat or on a seaside links, where the ground is hard and the turf short, a ball can be driven much further than on a hilly or heavy course, because it has a considerable run after alighting, and it is possible to get away a long second stroke owing to the ball lying clear; while on a heavy inland course, where the grass is long, the drive is all carry without any run, and owing to the interference of the grass it is not possible to get


Page 201

away along second stroke; and on a hilly course, the nature of the ground may considerably diminish the distance of the drive; consequently, on courses of the nature first mentioned the holes may be made longer than on courses such as those last indicated. It is to be kept in view, too, that the links are to be laid out for the use of a certain class of golfers, if all are beginners it is a mistake to make the course too difficult at first, as it will diminish their pleasure and possibly disgust them with the green; but as they get more expert the links can be made more difficult by lengthening the holes and similar devices. On new greens which are of a rough nature, the holes should be made shorter to begin with, until the ground is walked down, and they can afterwards be lengthened by putting the tees further back; for, of course, the putting-greens cannot be removed save at great expense.
The tees should be placed on level parts of the course, with, if anything, a slight slope upwards in the direction to be played. If there be a hillock or rising ground or any obstruction requiring to be driven over in front, the teeing-ground should be kept far enough back to enable the ball to rise over it in the course of its flight. Provision, should be made for changing the teeing-grounds frequently, to prevent the turf on them being worn out, and to permit ground previously used to recover.
The selection of putting greens is a much more





Page 202            

difficult matter. The variety of places on which they can be formed is infinite. They may be on the level course, or in a natural hollow or basin, provided it be sufficiently large and shallow, or they may be placed on the tops of large ‘tables.’  All of these are good positions, and the more variety that can be introduced the better. The putting-greens should be as large as possible; and while the ground should be comparatively level, it is not desirable that it should be perfectly flat like a billiard-table, but should rather be of a slightly undulating character.  It is absolutely essential that a putting-green be firm and smooth, and the turf close and short, so that the ball will roll on it and not ‘bobble' or Jump, as it certainly will if the turf be brushy and uneven. If natural putting-greens cannot be made on the course as it stands, then they must be dug up and laid with suitable turf; but this should only be done as a last resource. It is a very bad piece of ground that will not improve sufficiently to make a fairly good putting-green, under proper care, and with due cutting and rolling and top-dressing.  A strong attempt should always be made to bring the natural turf into condition before resorting to the lifting and turfing of a putting-green. Many will be surprised to find the improvement that can be effected on any ordinary turf with proper treatment and care. If large enough putting-greens cannot be made at any particular parts of the course, it may be necessary to have relief


Page 203

putting-greens on to which the hole can be changed when the regular greens show signs of tear and wear. The putting-greens and teeing-grounds should, as previously pointed out, be in proximity to one another.
With regard to hazards, I would begin by stating that there should not be any hazard out of which the ball cannot be extricated at the loss of one stroke, and that all hazards should be visible to the golfer when he stands at his ball before playing his stroke. A bunker that is not visible to the player is always more or less of a 'trap.' Sand bunkers are undoubtedly the most legitimate hazards. When there are natural bunkers, it may be possible to place the holes so that these can be made use of, but otherwise they must be formed, and in all cases they ought to be big enough and deep enough and broad enough to prevent the possibility of a ball either rolling through or jumping over. It should not be possible for a ball to lie in such a position in a bunker that a stroke at it cannot be made so as to play the ball out in one direction or another, and the corners should not therefore be sharp and angular, but rather rounded off. The hazard should be sharply defined, so that there can be no doubt as to whether or not a ball lies in it. When bunkers are made, it is very usual to form the soil taken out into a cop in front, or behind, and sometimes in the middle. When such a thing is done, the cop should not be made high but rather broad and it should not have steep



Page 204
                         
sides.   Among various kinds of hazards are to be found walls, trees, water, fences and hedges, whins, etc.  Trees are never a fair hazard if at all near the line of play, as a well-hit shot may be completely spoi1ed by catching in the branches. An occasional wall or fence or stream of water or pond to be crossed cannot always be avoided, but I do not recommend the making of such hazards merely as hazards.
The placing of hazards is a matter of great difficulty, and their positions should be such that a golfer who is playing a good game should never visit them. The positions should be varied. There should, for example, be at certain holes hazards that must be carried, and should be carried, from the tee; these should be placed at such distances from the teeing-grounds that, while a well-hit shot will carry them, a topped or half-topped stroke will get in. At other holes the hazards should be placed so as to punish badly played second strokes; at others, again, the hazards should guard the putting-greens in front, and there may also be some hazards placed behind the greens.  In neither of these cases should the hazards be too near the green; in the former it should be possible to loft well over the hazard, and yet lie near the hole, and in the latter it should only be a ball much too strongly played that is punished. There is a, great cry nowadays that every hole should have a hazard in front requiring to be lofted over, but I think it is possible to carry a system of this kind too


Page 205

far. It ties players down to pitching all their approaches instead of making them exercise their judgment as to whether the ball should be lofted or run up. No golfer will deny that there should be hazards in front of some holes, but I think that at others there should be a clear road, with hazards judiciously placed on either side to punish wild shots. To loft a ball with an iron is comparatively easy to any player except an absolute novice, but it is not so easy to keep to the proper course. Erratic play should always meet with punishment, and I would counsel hazards being laid down on each side, not of the putting-greens alone, but also of the line to the hole, to catch pulled or sliced balls. I know that a bunker on the line of play, and into which a good stroke may get, is frequently considered a trap; but this is an opinion which I cannot altogether endorse,  if the bunker is visible to the player, and there is sufficient room to avoid it, it cannot properly be called a trap. Golf as a game of skill requires that a player should be able to place his ball; and if he sees the hazard, and knows there is the danger of getting in, the proper thing for him to do is to drive his ball to one side or other of the difficulty.
Although blind holes (i.e. holes at which the player does not see the flag) are objectionable, they cannot always be dispensed with; but an endeavor should be made to place the hole in such a, position that it can be seen in playing the approach. Having to play.

* Please note, all bold and underlined words and phrases were done by Forse Design to highlight a certain portion of the excerpt and are not found in the original manuscript.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

JNagle

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Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2005, 02:24:39 PM »
Kyle -

Aside from Willie Park's book we also suggest checking out a number of his courses.  Some are unknown but that does not detract from the quality.  Willie Park was a master at creating woderfully undulating strategic greensite.  His greens certainly emphasized the ground game and proper attacking angles.  Proper approach angles were enhanced with strategic fairway bunkers.  As Ron and I have worked on and studied Park (and Alexander Findlay) courses we realize these guys were true pioneers.  Both Findlay and Park were master green designers.  I am also including a brief portion of a letter we recently sent to a Park club.  This will provide more insight.

You may wish to check out Maidstone, Berkshire Country Club (PA), Glen Ridge (NJ), Calgary G & CC, Rolling Road (MD), New Haven CC (CT)........

From recent letter -

We regard your architect as one of the pioneers who laid the foundation for all good American golf course design.  Mr. Park created interesting courses and, especially, superbly undulating putting surfaces.  He has not received the accolades due to a man so talented and who played so key a role in the development of course design in the early 20th century.  Mr. Park is fast rising on our list of favorite architects.  The more of his work we see the deeper our appreciation becomes of his abilities in golf architecture.  His pioneering work preceded much of that done by Donald Ross, A. W. Tillinghast, Seth Raynor and the other fellows of the early 1900’s.  His book, The Game of Golf, was written in 1896.  The design principles were quite sophisticated for the time as golf had just barely gotten off the ground in the United States.


We quote The Architects of Golf by Cornish and Whitten on Willie Park’s life.

“The name Willie Park, Jr., is one of the most respected in the history of golf.  He was a multifaceted personality, a talented and prolific golf architect, one of the greatest golfers of his day, an entrepreneur and businessman, a club maker, inventor and author.”  An accomplished golfer, “he won the British Open in 1887 and 1889 and also was runner-up in 1898.”  He started his design career as “he laid out links and courses with his father and Uncle (Mungo) and later on with construction assistance from brothers Mungo II and Jack.”  After previous visits to North America, “he finally returned to the United States in 1916, course design being his main vocation, and he established a base in New York and later a branch office in Toronto. Willie spent the remainder of his professional life in North America, designing or redesigning over seventy courses.  Mr. Park personally visited nearly all of his courses periodically during construction.  Willie Park, Jr., was surely one of the virtuoso golf architects.”

The best golf architectural book on Willie Park’s life and work was published by the Maidstone Club in East Hampton, New York (Long Island), down the road from Schinnecock Hills.  It is called the Maidstone Links, written by David Goddard.  To procure your own copy, we suggest you call the head golf pro at the Maidstone Club.  His name is Edin Foster and his phone number is _______________.  

Attached to this letter is a copy of a section of Mr. Park’s book, The Game of Golf.  This blurb is very enlightening regarding his approach to bunkering, hazards and other various topics.  Also included in this package are various photographs from some fine Willie Park Jr. courses.  We wanted to include these in this package because they are very illustrative of some of your architect’s fine work.  He was known for having a very good short game.  The enclosed photos reveal that he was a master of creating interesting contours on putting surfaces.  
« Last Edit: March 01, 2005, 02:25:20 PM by JNagle »
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Kyle Harris

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2005, 02:43:53 PM »
JNagle,

Thanks for your posts and the time. I am trying to get an idea of his activities in early 1920's here in Pennsylvania... specifically with the Penn State White Course and a few others. There are still some holes from the White Course that are relatively unchanged from the original Willie Park design and they're some of my favorite in golf.

In the "Final Four" thread, the stretch I mentioned from the White Course are all Park... absolutely great greens.

Either way, reading your posts gave me some great insight into his design theories and what not. I'd love to get on Maidstone sometime.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2005, 02:45:14 PM by Kyle Harris »

T_MacWood

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2005, 03:55:04 PM »
Kyle
Willie Park first came over in 1895...did a quick tour and laid a few courses in between exhibition matches. He came back in 1916 to stay. Starting in 1919 he made annual short trips back to the UK, but he lived and worked here....that is until he went mad and was hospitalized in Scotland shortly before he died.

His rendering style looks a lot like Ross's (actually W.Johnson)...he was an excellent artist. I'd say his green designs were his signature.

JNagle
The Game of Golf was written in 1896, do you think it accurately reflects Park's later design philosophies?


tlavin

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2005, 05:15:16 PM »
I have a recollection that he also designed a course in Battle Creek or Grand Rapids Michigan.  Maybe Ralph Livingston can help...

ian

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2005, 05:16:37 PM »
Best place to see Park's work is Montreal:

Beaconsfield - great routing (back nine in particular) with a Thompson rebunkering. Cooke has made recent changes.
Mount Bruno - great lay of the land layout with MacBroom bunker job
Islesmere (White/Blue) - excellent collection of holes mostly intact although two holes on the red are part of the origional 18
Laval-sur-le-lac (green) - one of the better projects with better land; Strong had done some wonderful bunker work that enhansed the course.
Whitlock

Other notes:

Ottawa Hunt - major renovation/overhaul by MacBroom removed almost all of Park's work

Weston Park routing, too sick to finish, so Charles Alison was brought in to bunker the course

Suggest you check out Red Run in Michigan as another good example of his work.

Parks of Musselburgh is a wonderful read.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2005, 05:21:12 PM by Ian Andrew »

Joe Hancock

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Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2005, 05:25:00 PM »
From Battle Creek CC's website:


"With the reorganization of the Battle Creek Country Club in 1919, and the purchase of nearly 200 acres of land on Goguac Lake, club members were now ready to build the 18-hole golf course they had been seeking since golf was first introduced to Battle Creek. The Officers and Board of Directors wasted no time in hiring the most renowned course architect of the era, Willie Park, Jr.

Willie Park, Jr. was born in Musselburgh, Scotland in 1864, and was an
outstanding player.  Like his father, he won multiple British Opens, in 1887 and
1889.  He was especially known for his putting- a part of the game that would
become a primary focus in his later golf course design work. He and his father
established a ball and club making business, and developed and patented a
number of different types of clubs.  Park was also an author, and was the first
professional to write an instruction book, The Game of Golf published in 1896,
followed by The Art of Putting in 1920.  Ultimately, however, Willie Park, Jr made
his greatest contribution as a golf course architect.  While other designers of his
day were simply routing holes over existing terrain, primarily seaside links, Park designed inland courses on land not already conducive to golf.  He molded holes out of otherwise unattractive land, and made them look like they had always been there.  In so doing, Park became known as the pioneer of modern golf course architecture.

The most famous of Park's pioneering efforts is the Old Course at Sunningdale, located 20 miles west of London, built in 1901.  He was also a principal in the first modern residential resort golf community at Huntercombe in Oxfordshire.  As golf began to take hold in the United States, Park made trips here to promote his club making business.  Later, as golf-related business in Europe came to a standstill as a result of the outbreak of World War I, Park came to America in 1916 to earn a living as a golf course architect.  From 1916 until 1923, Park had a hand in designing nearly 50 courses in the U.S. (see list)  His most famous work in this country is probably Olympia Fields in Chicago, site of a U.S. Open, a U.S. Senior Open, and two PGA Championships.

Michigan was also a frequent source of business for Park, and in September of 1919, he came to Battle Creek, staying at the Post Tavern Hotel.  He was joined by Frank James, a golf course construction supervisor from the same New York based firm that employed Park, and J.G Kanter, an agent of the London-based Carter Tested Seed Company, who would later supply over 900 bushels of dwarf grass seed from New Zealand. The three men met with Steve Rathbun and Dr. W.T. Bobo from the club to begin the design and construction of the new course.  While the property presented fewer challenges than many of the other courses they had built, there were some.  Much of the new soil required was to be brought in from New Jersey and chemically treated to give it the proper moisture holding qualities. Then there was the task of filling, and tilling, the swamp and lowland areas that would later become holes 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 & 14.

Following his initial surveying and measuring, Willie Park, Jr. was quoted as saying, "The Battle Creek course will be just 100 yards longer than the famous St. Andrews course. The total length of the course will be 6,574 yards."  The length of each of these holes, as originally constructed was:

    No. 1 ....  450 yds.         No. 10 ....  540 yds.
    No. 2 ....  390 yds.         No. 11 ... . 376 yds
    No. 3 ....  550 yds.         No. 12 ....  160 yds.
    No. 4 ....  155 yds.         No. 13 ....  336 yds.
    No. 5 ....    86 yds.         No. 14 ....  386 yds.
    No. 6 ....  402 yds.         No. 15 ....  555 yds.
    No. 7 ....  393 yds.         No. 16 ....  130 yds.
    No. 8 ....  130 yds.         No. 17 ....  320 yds.
    No. 9 ....  490 yds.         No. 18 ....  425 yds.

After his initial visit in September, Park returned to Battle Creek a month later to complete the design. Construction, under the supervision of Frank James, began immediately and the first holes were seeded in the early spring of 1920 and were available for play that same summer.  These first holes were what are now Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 15, 16, 17 and 18.  As a temporary ninth hole, a tee area was designated behind number 18 green, with the current 9th green serving as the hole location.  The second phase of construction involved reclaiming a considerable amount of land from the marshes and swamps.  In the fall of 1920, that area was ready for seeding, and was scheduled to be ready for play in the summer of 1921.

Local newspaper accounts of Willie Park, Jr.'s time in Battle Creek contain several quotes from the most famous course designer of his day.  "It was one chance in a million to find a piece of land like that so near the city.  It is the finest piece of ground I have ever seen, and it will be one of the best in America when it's finished.  It will be a thoroughly up- to-date course, and a championship course."

"The sandy, loose soil makes the finest kind for golf courses, and the location is not too hilly, just rolling enough to make an ideal course".

In response to Steve Rathbun's comments on the severe nature of the former Country Club site, Park said, "Golf is not an old man's game, as some people think.  In a hard match, the young man will always have the advantage of condition and endurance."

Park designed courses on the basis of the game he learned in Scotland.  His design of the Battle Creek Country Club course shows many of his beliefs:

    "Lateral bunkers are advocated and useful, but too many of them tend to make this course
    narrow, which is not desirable.  Bunkers must never be sited, as they frequently have been, in
    the area in front of the green where a good approach should land in order to go to the green."
        - That is why only the Par 3's {and the modified 17th hole) at Battle Creek are fronted by
        hazards of any kind.  Every other hole is open in front.

    "Hazards are obstacles to be avoided- bunkers, trees, hedges, whins, heather, water, etc. Their
    positions should be such that a golfer who is playing a good game should never visit them.
    Hazards should catch badly struck or badly placed shots."
        - Relatively few of the greenside bunkers at Battle Creek abut the greens.  Most are shallow,
          and sited away from the putting surface.  They capture only very poor shots.  Bunkers are
          used more to "frame" holes than to dictate the line of play.

    "The challenges of the golf course should be subtle rather than overt, and length should not be
      a premium."
        - Although there are a few blind shots at Battle Creek, the landing areas are generous and
         fairway bunkers are few, and length, in most cases, is not an issue. The challenges are in
        hitting approach shots to the correct portion of the greens- and the next shots required if the
         approach is poor.

    "Putting greens may be sited on the level course, in natural hollows and basins- providing these
     are large and shallow, or on the top of large tables."
        - Most of the greens at Battle Creek are built on large tables.  They slope from back to front,
          and many contain substantial humps or are tiered.  The elevated greens present difficult
          shots for those who miss the green on either side, and even more difficulty for those over  
          the green.

The Battle Creek Country Club 18 hole golf course was completed on schedule and opened for play on Sunday, July 24, 1921.  The design was a classic example of Willie Park, Jr's principles of course architecture.  After more than 80 years, and the tinkering of numerous greens committees, it remains one of the truest examples of his work in the United States.

In 1923, Park fell ill with what was considered to be an unknown form of Dementia, from which he never recovered. His younger brother took him home to Scotland where he passed away in May of 1925 at age 61."

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2005, 05:39:16 PM »
Jim Nagle:

I saw what the last post of yours said about the Maidstone book of David Goddard's being one of the best books on Willie Park Jr. Mike Cirba lent me his, I still have it and I read it cover to cover carefully. I've played that course loads of times over the years, it's sure one of my favorites anywhere and I thought I knew a lot about its heritage. Well, after reading David's (who's been very helpful with us at Shinnecock) I realized I wasn't even close. My God what a complex evolutionary tale Maidstone's golf courses is---David did an incredible job of piecing it all together. It was a really admirable work on Maidstone but I don't know that I'd say that book is one of the more informative ones on Willie Park Jr himself. It seems that some of what might be attributed to Willie Park Jr might just legitimately go to his brother John, who I believed worked at Maidstone for a time. The thing you sort of gather from David Goddard in that book is that Willie was definitely a man on the run---it's easy to see why he might have basically worked himself to death.

But what I really learned from David's book on Maidstone is how much fill Park cut out and moved on those really great holes of #6, 7, and #9 (one of my real favorite par 4s in the world). I had no idea of that at all. To look at them you sure wouldn't have suspected it and to think he dropped the entire fairway on #9 maybe ten feet to generate the fill to build #7 is just amazing to think about.

Kyle Harris

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2005, 05:41:22 PM »
Tom Paul,

How comprehensive is that book?

By comprehensive, I mean detailing his travels and work...

TEPaul

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2005, 05:43:51 PM »
Tom MacWood:

If Willie Park jr got back here in the middle of the war in Europe in 1916 then why did you say that would've been so difficult to near impossible for Harry Colt to do? A bit of inconsistent logic, don't you think? Although at the time it probably seemed like a reasonable thing to say simply to support your point!  ;)

TEPaul

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2005, 05:46:33 PM »
Kyle:

The book is really comprehensive on Maidstone not necessarily Willie Park Jr. Goddard basically had to speculate on his time at Maidstone because unfortunately all Maidstone's early history material that may've had to do with him there is gone!

T_MacWood

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2005, 06:21:34 PM »
TE
Impossible, no. Extremely improbable, yes. We discussed Park's circumstances (and Colt's as well) about a week ago...did you forget already or did you just block it out of your mind? I worry about you.

Kyle
The Maidstone book might be the most comprehensive club history I've read from an architectural point of view.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2005, 08:14:44 PM by Tom MacWood »

Kyle Harris

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2005, 06:23:18 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Do you know anything of his designs in PA?

I know of:
Philmont South
Berkshire
PSU White Course

And a few out by Pittsburgh, any others you can add?

T_MacWood

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2005, 08:13:32 PM »
Kyle
The courses I'm aware of that Park designed or redesigned:

Indiana (Pa)-9
Berkshire
Green Valley
Pittsburgh Field
Chartiers Hts.
Youghiogheny-9
Penn State
Philmont


TEPaul

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2005, 02:19:37 AM »
"We discussed Park's circumstances (and Colt's as well) about a week ago...did you forget already or did you just block it out of your mind? I worry about you."

Tom MacWood:

No, there's not a need to worry about my memory---I tend not to forget a thing you say on here. The only thing to worry about is the accuracy of some of the things you say on here! We did discuss it a week ago because I brought it up. I was just reminding you that you tried to make it look like Colt could not return to the USA and PVGC again because of the war in Europe. And of course you said that quite a bit before a week ago. When you make those kinds of blanket statements and blanket generalizations I think it's important to remind the folks on here they might not mean what you try ot make them sound like!  ;)

Philip Gawith

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Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2005, 05:55:18 AM »
As a member of Huntercombe, I am not sure I recognise the description of it as the "first modern residential resort golf community". The barrage of adjectives conjures up the vision of a luxury gated community somewhere warm like Florida, with lots of retirees living on the property! The current reality is of a very low-key, traditional, unmonied club where short socks are not permitted, foursomes are preferred and golf carts almost never seen! I am no student of his courses but the description of him as a builder of interesting putting surfaces certainly applies to Huntercombe which has some wonderful greens.

T_MacWood

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2005, 06:32:01 AM »
TE
We all make mistakes....of course not all of us have a deranged fact checker with a vendetta following us around 24 X 7. By the way I'm not really interested in who did what at PV, my focus is on the psychology of the Philadelphian. :)

Phillip
Huntercombe rarely comes up, which is unfortunate considering its place in golf architecture history. It was also indirectly (perhaps directly) responsible for Park's eventual migration. It ruined him financially...his fiscal tailspin eventully concluding in Edinburgh Sheriff Court in a bancrupcy examination, prior to his exit to the States.

Despite its negative consequences, Park continued to list Huntercombe near the top of his accomplishments.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2005, 11:19:37 AM by Tom MacWood »

Kyle Harris

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2005, 07:04:08 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Pyschology of a Philadelphian, as per Mike Schmidt: "In Philadelphia, there is the thrill of victory, and agony of reading about it the next day."

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2005, 09:26:13 AM »
Fascinating info that Tom. I am not sure the Huntercombe centenary history records the impact you describe! Perhaps my memory fails me - I must go back and check. Possibly such a sorry conclusion was considered to be at odds with the celebratory spirit considered appropriate for a centenary event.

michael j fay

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2005, 02:14:19 PM »
Park, Jr. did some very good work in Connecticut at Shuttle Meadow CC, Madison CC, New Haven CC and Woodway CC in Darien.

I felt for a long time that Woodway was one of the top three courses in the State. I used to play there a bit and one of their members Bob Hopkins, I think, was working on a Park, Jr. biog. I don't know if he finished it or not. You could call the Club ot the Pro Mike Ballo.


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