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John Foley

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Just saw this come across

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-28/greg-norman-partners-with-new-york-s-adirondack-club-resort

Never seen nor played Tupper Lake - how much Ross is actually there?

Integrity in the moment of choice

Matt Frey, PGA

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2015, 01:48:53 PM »
I didn't get the chance to play Tupper Lake while I was in Malone, but I had heard good things...but also heard it has become a bit overgrown overt the years. Their annual Tupper Lake used to attract some fairly strong players from around the country in its heyday.

What's Norman's track record on restorations?

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2015, 04:09:44 PM »
Will be interesting to see in the future if some of the bigger names architects continue to become financial partners on these projects.  Terms on this deal were not disclosed so we don't know if Norman put in money or reduced his fee.

 

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2015, 06:29:15 PM »

Never seen nor played Tupper Lake - how much Ross is actually there?


Could be zero. The only references I've ever seen say it was built by Willard G. Wilkinson. It would be interesting to see what info they're using to call it a Ross course.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jeff Bergeron

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2015, 06:36:49 PM »
The use of the terms 'renovation' and Greg Norman Signature Design' doesn't bode well for a restoration of Ross. Big egos that 'know what it takes to attract people'

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2015, 03:10:58 AM »
"The diamond is there,” Norman said in an interview. “It just needs to be polished off."

 :o


Maybe an English/American thing, but to "polish off" here means (amongst other things) to kill!

Incidentally, a friend of mine flew over to Florida this month to interview Norman at his home for the BBC.  Apparently he's a real gent.


« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 03:18:22 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2015, 01:43:25 PM »
"The diamond is there,” Norman said in an interview. “It just needs to be polished off."

 :o


Maybe an English/American thing, but to "polish off" here means (amongst other things) to kill!

Incidentally, a friend of mine flew over to Florida this month to interview Norman at his home for the BBC.  Apparently he's a real gent.

Norman would have been OK if he left the "off" off.  :)

ed: He'll actually need a lot of OFF if he's working up there in August.  ;D

« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 01:47:58 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2015, 09:48:10 PM »
Thanks for those pictures, Ron.  Brings back fond memories of several rounds at Tupper Lake in the late 1980's and early 1990s.  I knew nothing about golf course architecture (and, very little now) but I always enjoyed the experience of Tupper Lake.  There are some holes that are burned into my memory bank, though I can't remember their number.  A par 3 on the front with a green sitting on a shelf that prevented any kind of run-up shot.  Some neat par 4's on the front, with Big Tupper ski area in the background, and almost always, a herd of deer moseying across the fairway.  #10 was a demanding (for me) par 4, with a major raving in front of the green. 

A prototypic Adirondack setting.  Mostly covered boulders lurking on the fairways that created exciting and unpredictable bounces on fairway shots. 

Loved it.  Had only a faint understanding that some guy named Ross designed it.  That's what they claimed, and who was I to challenge that.  I don't recall ever thinking that it was a great course, but I enjoyed it enough to return as a stopping off point between Thendara and Lake Placiid.

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2015, 07:38:25 AM »
I knew I should have played it a few years back when we passed by it on the way to Canada, but time did not allow. It is a beautiful but distressed area in upstate New York. Not sure how that development will even take off, it's quite remote.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 04:52:10 PM by Richard Hetzel »
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2015, 09:45:27 AM »
650 homes with an exclusive gated community and marina? Seriously? Anyone who has ever even driven through Tupper Lake would have trouble envisioning this...

The bankruptcy lawyers will be lined up, trust me ;)

I have played TLCC three or four times in the past decade. Very hard to believe that Ross was ever on the property. Same goes for Malone (east) GC, which is 60 miles or so north of Tupper Lake and a course I really enjoy. Both clubs have used the Ross name as a way to attract golfers but I don't believe he was ever on either property and a majority of the work was done on both courses by Willard Wilkinson.

Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2015, 08:31:45 PM »
Does the fact the the Donald Ross Society's list of Donald Ross courses has Tupper Lake listed as an 18 hole 1932 design have any legitimacy?  I cannot question those who believe that Ross never walked the grounds of Tupper Lake, or had nothing to do with the course, but I believe it would be very enlightening to know/understand the basis of their opinions.  It doesn't much matter to me, but I would like to know what it is about the course that disqualifies it from any Ross influence.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2015, 08:50:46 AM »
Does the fact the the Donald Ross Society's list of Donald Ross courses has Tupper Lake listed as an 18 hole 1932 design have any legitimacy?  I cannot question those who believe that Ross never walked the grounds of Tupper Lake, or had nothing to do with the course, but I believe it would be very enlightening to know/understand the basis of their opinions.  It doesn't much matter to me, but I would like to know what it is about the course that disqualifies it from any Ross influence.

Ed,

It would be enlightening to hear from the DRS when these type of questions arise.

I don't think I've ever said that I know for sure that Ross wasn't there, only that the few articles I've seen say it was WW, and he's quoted in one or two of them.

TMac once said that if  Ross was there it would be very early on, not in 1932.

  
  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

jeffwarne

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2015, 09:14:16 AM »
I didn't get the chance to play Tupper Lake while I was in Malone, but I had heard good things...but also heard it has become a bit overgrown overt the years. Their annual Tupper Lake used to attract some fairly strong players from around the country in its heyday.

What's Norman's track record on restorations?

The article says renovate-not restore.
Not sure that matters anyway-sounds like a race for the $500 million.
No reason to hire a low key thoughtful architect when "proving" an area worthy of a grant
650 homes and described by the words "exclusive and gated" all while qualifying for government stimuli- vomit emoticon please
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2015, 11:24:59 AM »
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2015, 12:13:49 PM »
Jim,

Here is an article from 1937 which never mentions Donald Ross at either Tupper Lake (5 years after the course opened) or Malone Golf Club (8 days before construction started).  The only name mentioned is Willard Wilkinson.


Bret

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2015, 12:38:44 PM »
Played it last summer, but couldn't see much of the course for all the trees that have been planted in the last 1/2 century.  I'm certainly not qualified enough to identify a "Ross" as I've noted a wide range of styles in courses attributed to him.

Interestingly, the Donald Ross Society site shows it as a 1915 course, while the articles I found showed a 1932 opening of the "new Tupper Lake Country Club."  This article mentioned Willard G Wilkinson as the "nationally known architect chosen to supervise the laying out of the course."  This gets us back to the whole debate about whether "laying out" means "designing" or "constructing."  The course was definitely carved out of the woods.  The opening sentence of the article mentioned that the work was "under the supervision of Thomas Creighton, woods foreman of the Oval Wood Dish Corporation.  These dates hint that perhaps the 1915 design was expanded to a full 18 in 1932.

However, J. Peter Martin's Book "Adirondack Golf Courses...Past and Present" included the following:



This refers to split construction in 1932 and 1941, so I really don't know where the DRS 1915 date or connection comes from. 



Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2015, 12:55:43 PM »
Bret,

I've read at least 15 articles from the '30s and they all say Wilkinson, never a mention of Ross. He also helped design the ski area above TLCC.

I recall that TMac felt the older course was at a different location (closer to the lake?) than the 1932/1941 version.  


ed: I had an article that mentioned a dispute between WW and the town (or perhaps the golf committee) that was either about him getting paid for them using his plan to build the back nine but not his services, or him wanting more money than originally decided on for building it. I'll post it if I can find it, although I think it's on a long gone computer.

  
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 01:08:03 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2015, 01:05:02 PM »
In general, nothing I saw in Tupper Lake which screamed exclusive gated community.  Perhaps they're trying the "if you build it, they will come" approach. If this happens, I get the sense that the existing country club membership will need to find a new home.  I sensed a rustic, very relaxed club, not the type of people who lived in a gated-community.  

I doubt that it's the Ross name that attracted anyone - it's simply the nearest course to the ski resort.  I don't sense in the least that it will be a restoration - they said it will be converted into a "Greg Norman signature course."  But, as we suspect, there's not much risk of losing some precious Ross gem.

It may work to attract people as an "Adirondack Getaway" for people from Montreal or New York.  Ellicottville, NY (about 60 miles south of Buffalo) has turned into a bit of a destination for people from Toronto with a ski resort and golf course by a no-name architect (Russell Tryon).  The town has a number of small antique and other shops, along with various restaurants and a microbrewery.  


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2015, 01:17:36 PM »
Bret,
An article fromthe Massena Obseerver, August 19, 1941...


...makes it sound like they went ahead without WW for the back nine. The hole descriptions are interesting.  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2015, 01:48:46 PM »
Slightly different take on the course from Shark.com

http://www.shark.com/gwse/news/norman-partner-adirondack-club.php
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2015, 01:49:37 PM »


...makes it sound like they went ahead without WW for the back nine. The hole descriptions are interesting.  ;)

Jim,

Curious what you saw in this article that led you to believe WW was not involved in 1941?  

edit: sorry - just saw your edit to the prior post regarding a potential dispute with WW


These descriptiopns match up fairly well with what's on the ground, except that the "inflation" of yardages was in full force.  #7 appears above at 460 yards, but is 360 on the current card.  #1 was 50 yards longer on the card than what was possible to fit in the space.  Must have had a shorter associate pace off the yardages.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2015, 02:32:02 PM »
I've read at least 15 articles from the '30s and they all say Wilkinson, never a mention of Ross. He also helped design the ski area above TLCC.

I recall that TMac felt the older course was at a different location (closer to the lake?) than the 1932/1941 version.  


I found this old post from Tom MacWood that may have been what you were referring to:

I found an article on Tupper Lake in the Washington Post from the mid-30s that said they had two 9-hole courses. I'd be surprised if Ross built a course there in 1932. He was more or less retired at the time and there was very little design activity going on due to the Depression. I would not surprised if he, or one of his associates, was responsible for one of the nines earlier than '32, possibly much earlier.

The 1932 articles seem to indicate a new course (with Wilkinson involved) and that is definitely the same site as the 1942 expansion (common thread being Oval Wood Dish Corp). 

If that's the case, I suppose it's possible that the "other 9-hole" course in the area may have been the 1915 design somehow associated with Ross.  I can't find any articles about a pre-1932 course in Tupper Lake.  I scanned some old aerials for a possible footprint of a NLE course, but couldn't find anything (latest aerial I had was 1953).


John Blain

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2015, 04:32:57 PM »
From all accounts it would seem that Wilkinson is responsible for both Malone and Tupper Lake. I am actually going to be in Lake Placid tomorrow and will make it a point to stop and see my friend Peter Martin and see what his opinion is on Ross with respect to these two courses.

Matt Frey, PGA

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Re: Norman to renovate the Donald Ross Tupper Lake Country Club
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2015, 06:10:58 PM »
I've spoken to Peter about Malone and he didn't have much info, other than an old book on course architects, but admitted it didn't have much info.

There's more on this thread about Malone: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=60424.0

I've spoken to Derek Sprague, the PGA general manager and director of golf at Malone, and he said he plans to remove the Ross designation from their materials going forward, since all signs point to Wilkinson and Albert Murray. He mentioned to me that he spoke with Bradley Klein at the PGA Merchandise Show in January and Klein reiterated that he has no reason to believe Ross was ever in Malone or assisted in any way. What probably happened was there was an article in a national publication (Golf Digest?) that mentioned it had Ross-like features, and overtime, it "became" a Ross course.

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