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Sean_A

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #100 on: September 07, 2020, 11:32:40 AM »
There are numerous ways land can be common or the same as common land.


Lord of the manor situ where the lord owns the land and allows common grazing....often the key is grazing rights and sometimes in the UK when you buy a house someone from 1854 has the right to drive his sheep over your garden going to market once every 500 days.

Land can be left by someone in their will 'for the use of all the people to enjoy'...this will be left in trust, that trust will change and the new trustees may decide golf does not fit with Tim flying his kite.

You certainly won't be building houses on Cleeve Hill or Cleeve Common, and almost certainly the land can't be bought. As Niall states plenty of UK courses operate over land in this type of bracket, perhaps 1 in 10...maybe almost half of the UK golf courses the land is rented.

Footpaths are another area that can cause hassle and stress ( H & S ) and this can occur even if you own the land....such are our UK laws you have no rights to 'shoe' someone off your land if they are on a footpath.

Except properly registered common land enjoys incredible protection. Trust Constitutions are an entirely different matter.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Jay Mickle

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #101 on: September 07, 2020, 01:24:36 PM »
Cleve Cloud was on my 2020 BUDA itinerary, I hope it will remain in service until my next trip across the pond. BUDA 2019 was a washout due to my immobile neck, this year COVID am so looking forward to my next opportunity.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Sean_A

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #102 on: September 07, 2020, 01:45:20 PM »
From Tewksbury Borough Council

Cleeve Hill Golf Club to close next spring
Home > News >  Cleeve Hill Golf Club to close next spring

The current tenant of Cleeve Hill Golf Club has given notice of its intention not to continue its lease next spring.

The Share Club Ltd has served notice at the earliest opportunity within its 25-year lease to end the tenancy at the end of March 2021 - due to financial unviability.

Following the Share Club Ltd's decision, the borough council commissioned an independent expert opinion on the future of golf provision in this location. The report concluded that golf could not be financially sustainable at Cleeve Hill without significant investment and an ongoing subsidy from the council.

Given this conclusion, and the difficult financial position facing local government, the council’s Executive Committee reluctantly decided to end its licence to use Cleeve Hill Common for the laying out of a golf course from 31 March 2021. The land will return to the control of the Cleeve Common Trust, from 1 April 2021. This decision by the council has no effect on the current use of the remainder of the common, and that will remain open for the public’s continued enjoyment.

The council, which owns the clubhouse, has been exploring alternative options for the club's site. In the short-term, there are no current plans to redevelop it, although the very poor condition of the building means that there is no other affordable option other than for it to be demolished.

The borough council recognises that the local area is well-loved for walking and exploring, and the car park will remain open to members of the public

Longer term, any option would only be considered if it could meet four crucial themes. It must:

Facilitate and enhance the space for use by the community

Protect the local environment

Protect public access

Be commercially sustainable

Tewkesbury Borough Council's Lead Member for Finance and Asset Management Cllr Robert Vines said: “It is a shame that local authority golf will end here at Cleeve Golf Club, and sadly this will be a particularly difficult time for the club's employees.

“I would like to reassure those who use the common regularly, that Tewkesbury Borough Council is very much in support of public access to the area and we will continue to work with Cleeve Common Trust to ensure this remains the case.”


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

John Mayhugh

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #103 on: September 08, 2020, 07:40:58 AM »
Well, that sounds pretty final unless someone could convince the council that they would make money. Shame, as it's such a unique (and good) course. And thanks to travel restrictions, no chance for me to see it again.

Niall C

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #104 on: September 08, 2020, 08:14:34 AM »
John

Without looking to be flippant, Councils don't make money, they spend it. They spend it on "services". In less straightened times there would be an argument for the Council to take over the course and run it as a municipal for the well being and good health of the public, however it's hard to make that argument when hardcore social services are facing funding challenges.

The point I made in an earlier post is that there are an awful lot of similar clubs being run on a shoestring in the UK who have basically been bumbling along like that since they were formed. Their existence depends not on visitor numbers but the efforts of the members to keep things going. Events like this can either have a galvanising effect or can sink the club. Irrespective of the decision made to break the lease, the members might yet find a way through that actually might put them on a better footing. Here's hoping.

Irrespective of whether that happens, the ground is unlikely to be redeveloped so assuming grazing continues, then the opportunity should exist for the course to be readily resurrected in the future if support can be found.

Niall

John Mayhugh

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #105 on: September 08, 2020, 08:35:51 AM »
Without looking to be flippant, Councils don't make money, they spend it. They spend it on "services". In less straightened times there would be an argument for the Council to take over the course and run it as a municipal for the well being and good health of the public, however it's hard to make that argument when hardcore social services are facing funding challenges.
Niall,

I understand the concept. From the release that Sean shared, they mentioned:
The report concluded that golf could not be financially sustainable at Cleeve Hill without significant investment and an ongoing subsidy from the council.
What I was hoping is that some other operator could convince the council that the new operator would make money. Council gets revenue (lease payment) and the operator generates enough revenue to keep a course operating. Not at all suggesting it become a municipally operated course.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #106 on: September 08, 2020, 09:40:09 AM »
Without looking to be flippant, Councils don't make money, they spend it. They spend it on "services". In less straightened times there would be an argument for the Council to take over the course and run it as a municipal for the well being and good health of the public, however it's hard to make that argument when hardcore social services are facing funding challenges.
Niall,

I understand the concept. From the release that Sean shared, they mentioned:
The report concluded that golf could not be financially sustainable at Cleeve Hill without significant investment and an ongoing subsidy from the council.
What I was hoping is that some other operator could convince the council that the new operator would make money. Council gets revenue (lease payment) and the operator generates enough revenue to keep a course operating. Not at all suggesting it become a municipally operated course.
The course is absolutely packed at the moment, but the lease has already been forfeited aft march 31 2021. The rent is in two parts, half paid to TBC for the clubhouse area (inc, car park, g/keepers store, pro shop, clubhouse) several people have indicated they would pay £1,000,000 for the plot. The other half is paid via TBC to the owners of the land. Best solution I could see would be to take TBC out of the equation and deal with the landowners, perhaps run everything from a burger van! They now have only 150 members and PMG only attracted 15 members. BTW there is another loved one close by that apparently has less than 100 members :O(

A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

John Mayhugh

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #107 on: September 08, 2020, 01:08:52 PM »
Adrian,

I think it's clear to all that the lease has been forfeited by the current leaseholder.

If the land on the golf course not developed for some other purpose and grazing animals (and non-revenue hikers) can coexist with a golf course on the site, then I wonder why it would not be worth the landowner looking for a new operator? With the clubhouse separated from the course, the new operator would need to add parking (the parking lot for hikers doesn't seem large enough) and a place to service customers. Maybe that's a burger van or maybe a trailer like at Mulranny. The first hole would have to give up some space to accommodate the loss of infrastructure across the street, but as a par 5, it could.

Obviously I don't know any of the finances involved but I really do hope someone tries to keep golf happening there.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #108 on: September 09, 2020, 04:18:31 AM »
Adrian,

I think it's clear to all that the lease has been forfeited by the current leaseholder.

If the land on the golf course not developed for some other purpose and grazing animals (and non-revenue hikers) can coexist with a golf course on the site, then I wonder why it would not be worth the landowner looking for a new operator? With the clubhouse separated from the course, the new operator would need to add parking (the parking lot for hikers doesn't seem large enough) and a place to service customers. Maybe that's a burger van or maybe a trailer like at Mulranny. The first hole would have to give up some space to accommodate the loss of infrastructure across the street, but as a par 5, it could.

Obviously I don't know any of the finances involved but I really do hope someone tries to keep golf happening there.
John it has been said enough times on here. The primary problem behind this is not enough people want to play Cleeve Hill to pay the costs. it is not held in such esteem by the man in the street as it is by this group (and others) poor location in terms of people as well. This course used to Cotswold Hills GC but because it was poor the members built another course several miles away, those members in 1976 dumped for what is now probably a Doak 3. You can't convince an operator it will work, if you double the price you lose members, you need to double the membership, triple even if its only 150. I think I would be interested if it was only 30 minutes away but it is probably 50 minutes and UK people don't travel that distance for their regular golf as a norm.
The best operator would still be the members themselves, the strength and passion of those people would be the best to create some lobbying and action plan. The land is pretty low grade for farming and as such grazing is the only likely use, yes that could easily co-exist (as it has) with golf.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

John Mayhugh

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #109 on: September 09, 2020, 07:58:26 AM »
Adrian

I am not quite as dense as you may think.

It seems rather clear that the problem at Cleeve Hill was/is not enough revenue. The existing 78 year old operator wasn't able to solve that issue and opted to get out of his lease. No new operator (my use of this term could be anyone - including members) could successfully take over without more revenue. Certainly not going to make money with £15 green fees.

In 2018, Cleeve Hill managed just £349k in revenue and essentially broke even, while Lilley Brook on the south side of Cheltenham had £697k. Today, the Lilley Brook website only offers five day memberships, suggesting that full memberships are full. To me, it seems like there is demand in the area - it's just that people are choosing to play/join elsewhere. Is that because the golf course is poor as you describe it? Perhaps poorly marketed?

I am not suggesting that anyone would take this on to get wealthy. But maybe some different leadership could be enough to keep the course viable.
 

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #110 on: September 09, 2020, 08:45:07 AM »
Yes the reason for failure, is that the general perception of Cleeve Cloud is a 'poor'.


Sheep shit is not nice
No Water on the greens to stop my 3 wood
Steep climbs
It is cold up there
Its not in a very good location
Poor lies on the fairway
Badly conditioned approaches
Clubhouse manky.


Would be the reasons why the majority don't play (conditioning).


They entered 'death spiral' about 5/10 years ago and it is hard to get out of it. If you start doing rat shit deals you mess up the future. It is £15 to play and you need a lot of green fees to make things work at that level as you say. When you price at £15 it is difficult to get it to £30 (a realistic price IMO) and sadly anyone taking on CC gets left with that residual problem....push the price up a fiver and you will lose customers.


I personally think the damage has been done, operators might look at it, but I think your buying a headache. It is easy to fall in love with CC take it on a trash your money. Sometimes you need to understand that your opinion is a minor one not just think I think its great so every one else will.


I also think that to invest to make it better still won't work and the same reason, wrong location, not enough people. If you can play for £15 then £600 why join? Sean lives close, Sean likes CC why does he not join, I get the feeling he plays once a year.


For me, there is no question CC is the best golf course in the Cheltenham area. My opinion is very minor one. Lilleybrook, Cotswold Hills and Brickhampton all do okay in that area, but it is a bit like Minchinhampton Old Course if you suggested to a Minchinhampton member that the Old course was better than the New course you would get a stare that would suggest you were a total idiot.


I still hope somebody does take it on though.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #111 on: September 09, 2020, 11:45:48 AM »
Given that the golfing features will still be on the ground and that sheep will presumably still continue to graze and nibble the grass to give reasonable lies if diehards will for a while at least still go there and hit a few balls around (for free)?
Atb

Sean_A

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #112 on: September 09, 2020, 12:47:27 PM »
I typically play Cleeve Cloud 5-10 times a year. This year I have played the course probably a dozen times already. I looked into joining, but the math didn't add up so I decided to pay and play.

I do think Adrian is right in that for the place to be viable someone needs to invests in the course and welcome walkers off the hill with a decent cafe.  While the Council no longer wants anything to do with the course, I believe a deal can be struck with the Trust simply because the course rent represents 20% of the Trust's income. I also believe the Council will listen to proposals with the aim of providing a better amenity to the wider community. So, it may be that TBC will be willing to have a small golf operation building once the current building is demolished oe sell the land to an interested party that will operate the course..  All is not lost, but I do believe that somehow a significant percentage of income must come from non-golf streams.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #113 on: September 09, 2020, 12:59:24 PM »
Sean,


Does the trust receive the rent money from TBC or does it go directly to the landowner?


My understanding was the latter and that for whatever reason the landowner no longer wants golf played on the Common.


In that scenario the Trust has no involvement.

Sean_A

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #114 on: September 09, 2020, 05:19:56 PM »
Sean,

Does the trust receive the rent money from TBC or does it go directly to the landowner?

My understanding was the latter and that for whatever reason the landowner no longer wants golf played on the Common.

In that scenario the Trust has no involvement.

My understanding is 50% of the rent (rent for the course only) goes via TBC to the Common Trust. I have no idea what the land owner wants.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 08:27:45 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Sean_A

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #115 on: September 25, 2020, 08:25:52 AM »
A podcast about Cleeve Cloud from the Cookie Jar Golf Podcast boys. If there ever was a course worth the time of the golf community, Cleeve Cloud is it.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-cookie-jar-golf-podcast/id1493651992?i=1000492474612

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 08:29:03 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #116 on: September 25, 2020, 08:47:24 AM »
I think it is saved now. Landlord will be out by March 31st but plenty of support to take it on.


It is two problems I think, golf will continue on the common, rent paid to land owners by members or new leasee. Clubhouse is a separate problem not so sure if it might be a different taker.



Bought a corporate membership yesterday and did the same for Painswick.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

John Mayhugh

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #117 on: September 25, 2020, 08:54:57 AM »
Adrian,
This sounds great. You seemed rather pessimistic a few weeks ago, so hearing this from you makes me very optimistic.
Good on you to buy memberships at two places worthy of support!

I'll be including a detour to Cheltenham either pre or post Buda 2021.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #118 on: September 25, 2020, 09:22:47 AM »
Here is a nice YouTube video on Cleeve Hill from the Cookie Jar podcast guys:


https://youtu.be/PRpdtkGhiyk
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #119 on: September 25, 2020, 09:31:01 AM »
Adrian,
This sounds great. You seemed rather pessimistic a few weeks ago, so hearing this from you makes me very optimistic.
Good on you to buy memberships at two places worthy of support!

I'll be including a detour to Cheltenham either pre or post Buda 2021.
Yes it looked very bleak but I think the campaigning from both golfers that play there and the walkers there have pursuaded the bosses it needs saving. Lots have promised to support, just hope they do or it could fall back into a situation where it is cash poor.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #120 on: September 25, 2020, 09:46:49 AM »
Great news.


Played there Monday, it was busy and without asking they gave me a Seniors Rate of £15 for the round. Only 4 days ago, none of the staff knew what would happen but they were hopeful.




Hopefully this will result in the getting back to maintenance standards of old, which I felt had dropped.


A very special place to play golf.



Let's make GCA grate again!

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #121 on: September 25, 2020, 01:20:14 PM »
Very pleased to hear Adrians comments above.
Well done to all those who have championed its continuation and every success to those who take on its running.

atb

Sean_A

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New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Sean_A

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
« Reply #123 on: October 28, 2020, 06:58:01 AM »
More good news!

https://t.co/0r3FVAtLRk

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

John Mayhugh

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Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: There is Still Some Hope
« Reply #124 on: October 28, 2020, 09:19:54 AM »
Really good to hear.

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