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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on October 01, 2011, 06:42:12 AM

Title: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2023-24 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on October 01, 2011, 06:42:12 AM: (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50570234581_4875f8e623_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50570234581_4875f8e623_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4191/33641880504_58b9a701de.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4191/33641880504_58b9a701de.jpg)

At 1083 feet Cleeve Hill is the highest point in the Cotswolds with commanding views over nearby Winchcombe to the north, Bishops Cleeve and Wales to the west and Cheltenham some four miles distant to the south. Indeed, the renowned Cheltenham Gold Cup was first run on Cleeve Hill from 1815 to 1855 before moving to Prestbury Park just north of Cheltenham. Plenty of horses being exercised are still seen about property. Covering some 1000 acres, the largely limestone (hence the good drainage) Cleeve Common was cleared of trees about 6000 years ago and is the largest unenclosed wold on the Cotswold escarpment. The land has been used for farming, grazing and quarrying. Much of the iconic golden Cotswold stone used for nearby buildings was quarried in and around Cleeve Cloud (a lower summit of Cleeve Hill) and has been for at least two millennia. It is these quarries which give so many holes their character.

www.cleevecommon.org.uk (http://www.cleevecommon.org.uk)

The course seems as if it has been around as long as the quarries, but in fact the original course wasn’t built until 1891. It may be the case that Old Tom Morris provided the first design, but it is thought only four holes remain, 13 through 16. While all good holes, Cleeve Hill's most iconic hole is the 13th, The Camp. The hole is named so because the green is located on the site of an Iron Age hill fort. The fort would have been occupied from from around 400BC until the Roman Occupation in 43AD. See bottom of the map.

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7870/46485359084_bf91d27966_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7870/46485359084_bf91d27966_b.jpg)

The course has already changed by 1913.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7855/46346860485_941ec03ff4_b.jpg) (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7855/46346860485_941ec03ff4_b.jpg)

The opening hole from the 1913 design....I think.
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A photo of what I think is the no longer existing second hole from the 1913 design. The golfers in the distance are walking to a green outside of shot.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7907/33385654358_2c6798c3a9_b.jpg) (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7907/33385654358_2c6798c3a9_b.jpg)

A photo of the second showing the green.
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One David Brown, an ex-roofer and designer of another Cotswold beauty, Painswick, was in 1891 engaged to “arrange for the preparation and keeping of the greens.” Mr Brown was famous as the teacher of Queen Victoria and for winning the 1886 Open at Musselburgh, his home green. Famously, Brown was pulled off a roofing job to compete in this Open! Brown later became the professional for Cheltenham GC (wound up in 1935) and The Worcestershire before his departure to the United States where he would finish second in the 1903 US Open. Sadly, David Brown went bankrupt in the Wall Street crash and was deported back to Scotland where he died penniless.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50148697787_937f28bfe0_o.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50148697787_937f28bfe0_o.jpg)

The course must have been a bit rough and ready for Braid’s comments after losing a match to Harry Vardon in 1902 were short and sharp; “You get a great view of Cheltenham.” Additional big matches were held in 1905 and 1924. The international match in 1905 featured Vardon and Taylor against Braid and Herd; all three members of the The Great Triumvirate and the much loved would be fourth member, Sandy Herd. In 1924 two well known British professionals, Abe Mitchell and George Duncan (recent winner of The Open in 1920) played a match to celebrate the opening of the newly extended course. As it happens, the 18 year old Alf Padgham was recently hired as the Assistant Professional. Of course, Mr Padgham went on to become a premier British player, winning The Open at Royal Liverpool in 1936.

It is thought Dr MacKenzie may have worked on the course and produced new 4, 5, 7 & 9th holes around 1914. It is unclear to me if any of these holes were Dr Mac's, however these holes demonstrate a sense of design skill. Of course, changes continued. I am not sure when the current iteration was settled upon, but it was not in the too distant past. A hallmark of the design is blind holes, especially tee shots. The terrain is so hilly that avoiding blind tee shots would have required a degree of construction or long transitions between holes. As it is, there must be seven blind tee shots, surely too many for any course. However, these somewhat annoying shots are not overly hampered with harsh penalties for inexactitude.

So, we have quarries, blind tee shots and a knowledge that things come in threes. It may sound very strange for a course with common grazing rights for five farmers to exhibit anything of an exceptional nature, but true it is. On several occasions it is nothing less than dreamy after cresting a brow; for the greens are one after another exquisitely sited. Second shot courses are often spoken of, but in the case of Cleeve Hill it is nearly as perfect a description of a course as there can be.

A short film from Cookie Jar Golf Podcast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRpdtkGhiyk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRpdtkGhiyk)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52909291243_82727c9952_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52909291243_82727c9952_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52909000289_b6020a6140_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52909000289_b6020a6140_b.jpg)

The card of the course can be deceiving due to its 6093 total yards from the yellow tees. However, upon closer inspection, we note there is only one par 5, resulting in a course par of 69. Like Woodhall Spa, Cleeve Hill is a rarity among courses in that it is easier to play to one’s handicap by stepping back to the medal tees – measuring 6443 yards to a par of 71. Bruising par 4s from the daily tees, the 4th and 13th are relatively short three-shotters from the back markers. To further complicate matters, the lone yellow tee par 5 comes straight out the gate at #1.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50333297346_8e44502e69_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50333297346_8e44502e69_b.jpg)

The 1st and 2nd fairways are essentially shared. In fact, it is quite common to be on the wrong half for both holes. The uphill 2nd hole turns left and many golfers will experience an approach such as this.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7847/31571012587_d9d053e82a_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7847/31571012587_d9d053e82a_b.jpg)

Remarkably, technology has made reaching this green in one a possibility under the right (and rare) conditions. Consequently, an approach from the high side of the fairway is possible.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4867/31571013107_48b0d68030_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4867/31571013107_48b0d68030_b.jpg)

Behind the green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52706713939_b19c81a73b_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52706713939_b19c81a73b_b.jpg)

The third continues the blind drive/uphill theme with the approach being a rather rollicking ride. The green's false front is pronounced and is all the defense this small target requires. The 4th is a shocker to the senses. The magnificent setting of the course is fully revealed. However, all is not as it seems. The fairway corridor is huge, but for any chance to hit the green most will need to be well left near the 150 boulder. However, its a slippery slope to being too far left! Behind the green.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4395/36709926335_72a379944a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4395/36709926335_72a379944a_b.jpg)

Left of the green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52706875760_9601bbe9d4_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52706875760_9601bbe9d4_b.jpg)

#5 introduces the golfer to the quarries left and rear of the green. Cleeve Hill is very generous off the tee, indeed too generous in spots, but despite visual evidence to the contrary, this is a far tighter driving hole than it seems. The golfer needs to position himself to best take advantage of slopes, but gorse awaits for the pulled tee shot. The wonderful greensite from short right.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4415/35878676564_0a117e2c84_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4415/35878676564_0a117e2c84_b.jpg)

The first one shotter, #6 is very fine...as are all the par 3s.
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The 6th with the 5th in the background.
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The 7 & 8th were altered sometime after 1990. I am not sure of the changes, but I suspect it involved moving the holes from the hill right of the current 7th. That said, due to an outstanding green, it is difficult to imagine the 7th green being new. Playing over a quarry and broken ground, the green sits well down the hill in what appears to be a quarry. The approach is difficult due to the angled and severely sloped green. To get the best angle one has to make the hole play longer and come in from the left. A view behind the green from near the 8th tee reveals the sharp false front which covers approximately half the putting surface.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51111005849_503e82fbd2_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51111005849_503e82fbd2_b.jpg)

The 8th is an uphill slog. The closing hole for the front nine is a visual delight. The drive plunges madly down a right to left sloping fairway. The approach is a bit uphill to a hanging green. There is a greenside bunker about 5 yards to the right which cuts off the approach from too far right.

View from near 10th tee.
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Its been a long time coming, but the second par 3 is worth the wait. The 10th is one of the new post 1990 holes, a 200 yarder playing down the seam of where two hills meet. The approach kicks in from the right even though it looks like either side will do.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49911765488_27d8c65bbb_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49911765488_27d8c65bbb_b.jpg)

The eleventh too is a newish hole running across the valley to yet another raised green. The design fits beautifully with the existing holes. A bruiser hole, #12 is long, plays uphill and usually into the wind. This is one of several drives where large, rugged bunkering would strategically and aesthetically improve the design. Because 10 & 11 are new, this hole must have played from a different direction, but the current iteration is superb. The 12th is also an example of some unusually shaped greens.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52706875485_fcb97b11e9_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52706875485_fcb97b11e9_b.jpg)

Cleeve Hill is chocker block full of good holes and it could be the case that 13-16 are the only remaining original holes. The thirteenth is likely to be the one hole folks will remember for a long time. After another of what seems like endless uphill drives, we pass The Single Beech spotted all that time ago on the 4th tee. There are memorial plaques in the wall surrounding the tree.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1811/43209436065_dbfc1944b6_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1811/43209436065_dbfc1944b6_b.jpg)

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1874/44116411081_034672d55a_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1874/44116411081_034672d55a_b.jpg)

After passing the tree the hole waddles downhill. Even if downwind the approach is incredibly demanding. Cheltenham and its famous racecourse lie just below the Cotswold escarpment. It is here that the famous Cheltenham Festival is held each March. The biggest prize of the week is the coveted Gold Cup. Less than 15 miles futher south is Painswick Beacon! Golfers should consider themeselves extremely fortunate to play through such an historical site.

Various photos showing off this outrageous green. Most folks will end up in a gully with either their second or third.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4349/36709943405_eea1dfd17a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4349/36709943405_eea1dfd17a_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4436/36540393352_35c40a3a05_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4436/36540393352_35c40a3a05_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51111253871_dedfca089d_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51111253871_dedfca089d_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4369/36571421761_1c7029abd7_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4369/36571421761_1c7029abd7_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4406/36571423291_484c15af1c_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4406/36571423291_484c15af1c_b.jpg)

You guessed it, another blind tee shot awaits on the 14th. Cleeve Hill is mainly about the excellent green sites.
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We now hit a trio of holes which are of such excellence that it makes me ashamed to have waited all these years to visit Cleeve Hill. People simply don't talk about this course! Like the 6th, 15 plays over a quarry. The photo was taken from the ladies tee, well in front of the 145 yard men's tee. I think the club could take better advantage of the quarry if the green were extended to its edge.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4421/36314751120_38175a8deb_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4421/36314751120_38175a8deb_b.jpg)

Playing uphill at 185 yards, the 16th ups the anxiety level by several notches. First, a look at the hole from near the 15th tee offers some scale of the property.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4397/36314718950_f4057aa4dc_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4397/36314718950_f4057aa4dc_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4394/35875035814_2f902bd751_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4394/35875035814_2f902bd751_b.jpg)

Behind the green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50497361316_72fa63b197_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50497361316_72fa63b197_b.jpg)

Not to be outdone by the 13th, #17 is an incredible hole. The blind quarry down the left has to be one of the most harsh, absurd and fanciful blind hazards I have ever come across...and I wouldn't change a thing. There is a second blind quarry a bit right of the aiming pole. The green is well below the driving zone and is often blind for the approach.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51111253826_bd9f9f3dd2_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51111253826_bd9f9f3dd2_b.jpg)

Looking toward the green from the left quarry, the 7th is top centre.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4337/36540390622_8143592967_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4337/36540390622_8143592967_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4390/36571440401_de96ac8e28_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4390/36571440401_de96ac8e28_b.jpg)

It had to be that 18 couldn't match the previous five holes and that is indeed the case. Still, this is a good hole which offers a decent chance of a birdie if one can negotiate the gullies striped across the fairway.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51112033825_4b2613e88b_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51112033825_4b2613e88b_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4403/36314749640_ccf8e89a36_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4403/36314749640_ccf8e89a36_b.jpg)

I gush over Cleeve Hill, but it isn't without issues. Thankfully, the conditions have greatly improved. The greens are now on par with many well known UK courses. However, the new management hasn't amended the dubious bunker scheme. The powers that be really should consider a complete rethink as to the function they hope the bunkers should serve. As it is now, the bunkers are near greens when often times the green sites are good enough to be sand free. It is the driving aspect of the design which needs some bunkering to add interest and variety.

I do, however, have great admiration for Cleeve Hill and think a good many others would as well. While #s 13 and 17 are the only All England candidates (mind you that is a damn sight better than many more famous courses), there are many compelling holes and shots. Cleeve Hill also makes a perfect partner for those other two prizes of the Cotswolds; Painswick and Minch Old. Dare I say the Stranahan Course at the Players Club would make a fine fourth leg? Regardless, all should make their way to Cleeve Hill and feast on a design which is surprisingly good. 1* 2023

More Cotswold Gems

Minchinhampton Old Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48765.msg1100536.html#msg1100536 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48765.msg1100536.html#msg1100536)

Painswick
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51629.msg1181534.html#msg1181534 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51629.msg1181534.html#msg1181534)

Stinchcombe Hill
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60660.msg1437536.html#msg1437536 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60660.msg1437536.html#msg1437536)

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 6)
Post by: David Harshbarger on October 01, 2011, 07:59:59 AM: Love the green on 1. Is that like a push up bench as it looks like the green slopes right-left back into the hill.

Also, fom the states, is it common to have sheep and golfers sharing a commons?
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 6)
Post by: Mike Sweeney on October 01, 2011, 09:14:47 AM: What planet is that on??!! That is really wild. Well done as always and thanks.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 6)
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on October 01, 2011, 09:52:09 AM: Cleeve Cloud is truly beautiful, its pretty close to Painswick and Minchinhampton Old and well worth a little stop off if you like your quirk.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 6)
Post by: Melvyn Morrow on October 01, 2011, 11:49:32 AM: Sean

Cleeve Hills the home once of Cheltenham Golf Club before its demise and I believe currently the name is owned or associated with Lilley Brook GC which moved away some years ago. Cleeve Cloud GC plays the course now.

The origins of this course was designed in April 1891 by Old Tom Morris. Old Tom arranged for Davie Brown’s brother from Musselburgh to be the Green Keeper.

Attached is a reference from The Golfers Guide circa mid 1890’s confirming the information with a photo of the old club house and there is an article in The Scotsman reporting Old Tom’s return from setting up a new 18 Hole Course on this site dated the 4th May 1891.

(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/CheltenhamCleevehillGCfromTheGolfersGuidePage215.jpg)

(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/CheltenhamCleevehillGCfromTheGolfersGuidePage216.jpg)

Hope that gives you the additional info you require. Just one more small point the Secretary of Cleeve Cloud GC is Richard Salter.

Melvyn
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 10)
Post by: Neil_Crafter on October 01, 2011, 05:10:25 PM: Sean
Thanks for the tour. I had seen some old postcards of this course and it looked pretty hilly. Not a bad course to play if you have one leg shorter than the other!

What is little known is that it is another course that Dr Mackenzie consulted to, which might come as a bit of a surprise. And as you mentioned Lilley Brook, which was a new course by Mackenzie post WW1, it is not too big a shock I suppose to learn Mackenzie had altered the original Cheltenham course at Cleeve Hill as well, although his involvement was pre WW1. This is what I have been able to find out:

Not listed by DSH, Hawtree or C&W. The Cheltenham Town GC and the Cheltenham GC both played over the same course at Cleeve Hill. Possibly around 1914 (the club history information is not specific) Dr Mackenzie was paid 10 guineas for surveying the course and providing a plan for further improvements, resulting in the redesign of the current 4th, 5th, 7th and 9th holes. The Cheltenham Town GC later became the Cotswold Hills GC, while the Cheltenham GC closed in 1935. In 1976 the Cotswold Hills GC moved to a new course, leaving the Cleeve Hill GC playing over the old course at Cleeve Hill.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 10)
Post by: Tom_Doak on October 01, 2011, 05:22:11 PM: Sean:

I'm baffled by your three of the seventh green, above. In the first, you've previously said that you are playing way downhill to the green, but there seems to be a hill rising behind it. In the second photo, it looks like you are playing markedly UPHILL over the last 30 yards, as you can't see anything over the horizon.

I started to say after looking at your first picture, that I would have put the green up on the little ridge where the sheep are hanging out. But, after the next picture, I can't tell up from down.

P.S. You should break up your posts of photos a bit, instead of including them all in one post at the beginning. I would have included the pictures I referenced, but it was too hard to quote the whole long article and then cut my way back to the bit I wanted!
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 13)
Post by: Sean_A on October 01, 2011, 06:42:16 PM: Mike - its Planet Cotswolds.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 13)
Post by: Neil_Crafter on October 01, 2011, 11:39:57 PM: Sean
There has been a course on Cleeve Hill for a long time, don't know if it has moved at all though. My suspicion is that it is the same course in the same place that has been used by different clubs that have come and gone.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 13)
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on October 02, 2011, 05:58:32 AM: Just regarding the history of Cheltenham Golf Club. According to the club history there is nothing to substantiate that Old Tom designed the 1891 course though the clubs history is aware of the fact it was stated in various golf handbooks. The accounts show that no payment was made for design and the club believes that 4 members designed the original 1891 lay out.

Only 4 holes remain from that 1891 route. 13 14 15 and 16. All very good holes.

McKenzie was involved with Cheltenham Golf Club around 1920 I reckon at the time of the founding of Lilleybrook Golf Club, Dr Mac designed this and every hole like Augusta is named after a tree. He made suggestions to improve what we now know as Cleeve Cloud, I think the Cheltenham aspect meant that the Cheltenham golfers wanted to play nearer, Cleeve is a fair way away.

Holes like the 1st are newish, the 2nd has been in and out, these greens look very old but are not. Neil Coles and Brian Huggett advised in the early 70s. The Club was called Cotswold Hills until it moved to its present site, Maurice Little designed that and I have worked with Maurice on some improvement plans for Cotswold Hills. At the time of club moved Cleeve Hill was in danger of going out of buisness, but it kept going and is well regarded by many and is probably only held back by its condition (it has no automatic water system).

The Postcards you see refer to what is now the 18th hole area and the more recent 7th hole which has been abandoned. I have only played the course when the old downhill 7th (back to the clubhouse), the old uphill 8th has also been lost, these were fine holes but one hole played severely downhill the other returned to an area close to the 6th green, perhaps they were abandoned because of the severe walking. There are some new holes left of what was 10 that Robin Hiseman alerted me too (1990s). These newer holes may be part of a pre war routing and reserected. Hawtrees did this and RH was working for them.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 13)
Post by: Melvyn Morrow on October 02, 2011, 06:42:15 AM: I have read the article that states that Old Tom designed the course but that the author(s) could find no proof to that claim.

Proof is indeed available if one is just to look and starting in the Golfers Guides from 1894-6. Also The Scotsman article published ‘A New English Green’ on the 4th of May 1891 confirming his recent return the week before from laying out an 18 Hole course at Cheltenham.

This information together with some more has been passed onto the Mr I Watkins Secretary of the Gloucestershire Golfing Union.

In the end you have to decide if enough proof has been furnished to complete the history, the choice is yours.

Melvyn

PS MY understanding is that the course has been modified some approx. 3 times, yet I believe it has not moved as Old Tom utilised the quarries as potential hazards.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 13)
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on October 02, 2011, 07:31:21 AM: Im not sure Melvyn. I was actually with Ian Watkins on Friday shame this never came up before though Ian would know less than me since he did not come to Gloucestershire before 1977. I do have an early routing and there were a lot of short holes in those early days that are not there now, it might be a great excercise to try and find the old green and tee pads, that land is still pretty much just grassed. The trouble with old handbooks is it is very easy that they have published incorrect information and very easy to believe it as time passes since no one is around to disagree. Maurice Little who is probably 80 now would be the best source of info, if I bump into him I will ask him. What I am certain of is very little remains from that early routing so it aint no Old Tom now. The 15th is the quarry hole and that is still there. Sean will shortly be posting a pic.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 13)
Post by: Melvyn Morrow on October 02, 2011, 01:53:40 PM: Adrian

First we have the rumour that Old Tom was involved, but later generations can't find any information. Yet it’s interesting that this statement was issued in the last few years re OTM and no proof.

The Golfers Guide has been rather realisable to date, albeit published 4 years after the event. Yet we have the newspaper article clearly stating his return from Cheltenham in April 1891 the month after the club was formed. Also interesting is the comment about Davie Brown's brother being the Green Keeper.

So we have three things putting OTM at Cheltenham, two in writing and one printed a few days after his return. As for any holes left, I just do not know.

Had it just been the rumour then there are grounds to dismiss it out of hand but two separate reports one published at the time in a National newspaper, make it more believable. But as I said you can take it or leave it.

Melvyn
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 13)
Post by: Mark_Rowlinson on October 02, 2011, 03:54:54 PM: Sean, You are becoming a classic golf writer/photographer. You are very good. I think we should meet up at Holywell in North Wales, very similar in many ways to this course. Your trip should also take in Bull Bay if you haven't yet been there and we'll throw in Conwy to test out your handicap. Mark.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (finito)
Post by: John Mayhugh on October 02, 2011, 10:25:45 PM: Thanks for the tour Sean. Amazing that you're still discovering courses like this. Hopefully you will be up for a return visit next time I'm in the area. Can't come soon enough.

Nice looking set of par 3s. How long is the 6th?
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (finito)
Post by: Colin Macqueen on October 02, 2011, 10:50:17 PM: Sean,

Nice read...... verging on Darwinian! Now I understand that quarries abound but nonetheless this course seems to have fewer bunkers (no bad thing!) than I have ever seen on a golf course. Is that actually the case or are you shots not revealing their extent?

Cheers Colin.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (finito)
Post by: Robin_Hiseman on October 03, 2011, 03:58:30 AM: Sean

I'm glad that you finally made it up to Cleeve Hill and got such a belter of a day to boot. I've always enjoyed knocking it around up there although it can be maddeningly difficult to score on as it is usually hard and dry, which coupled with the severe contour makes it extremely tricky (but fun) to keep the ball on track. Your pictures do a fine job of showing it off, but one really has to be there to fully appreciate the sensational views.

We were recently asked by a leading golf magazine to recommend the British courses with the best views. I proposed Cleeve Hill, amongst others, but they rejected it. I suggest that if the editor of that magazine had been prepared to do adequate research for their feature, that Cleeve Hill would be a shoe in for one the best views in British golf....unless you know different.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (finito)
Post by: Sean_A on October 03, 2011, 03:16:19 PM: Neil - the website mentions the original course being at the lower slopes of Cleeve Hill so much of what now exists can't be original.

Mark - thanks for the kind words.

Colin - the course probably has less than 20 bunkers. In truth, if a proper archie was brought in to create a new bunker scheme Cleeve Hill could be an outstanding course.

Tucky - the 6th is about a buck 25.

Doc- Cleeve Hill is without doubt one of the prettiest courses I have ever seen.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (finito)
Post by: Peter Pallotta on October 03, 2011, 03:28:32 PM: Sean - thanks. A career as a wrter (low-paying but emotionally rewarding) awaits you!

Cleeve's £ spent per prettiest view ration is outstanding - not that I'm so superficial as to notice that or suggest it as a ranking system.

Peter
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (finito)
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on October 03, 2011, 04:27:54 PM: Quote from: Sean Arble on October 01, 2011, 06:42:12 AM
One can see that Cleeve Hill is very generous off the tee, indeed too generous. Still, the golfer needs to position himself to best take advantage of slopes, but it is hard to know how to do that on the first play.

Mighty fine tour, thanks Sean.

Robin have you ever played Clyne,? The overall look and a few of the holes brought it to mind?

Re the quote above I’ve often wondered how enduring the appeal of Quirk can be. Once you figure out the lines needed to have the ground feed your ball where you want it, is half the fun gone? Sadly Cleeve will be a play and run stop for me, but one I hope to do sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (finito)
Post by: Anthony Gray on October 03, 2011, 05:01:05 PM: Golf as was it was ment to be....fun.

Anthony
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (finito)
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on October 03, 2011, 05:18:15 PM: We have some 4 bed cottages and a 12 bedder in the middle of those courses. I reckon I can do 2 nights accomadation and 4 rounds of golf, Cleeve Cloud, Painswick, Minch Old and The Stranahan for £129. "The Cotswold Quirk" think I will try that for next year. Painswick and Minch are only about 15 minutes apart.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (finito)
Post by: Sean_A on October 05, 2011, 02:04:52 AM: Quote from: PPallotta on October 03, 2011, 03:28:32 PM
Sean - thanks. A career as a wrter (low-paying but emotionally rewarding) awaits you!

Cleeve's £ spent per prettiest view ration is outstanding - not that I'm so superficial as to notice that or suggest it as a ranking system.

Peter

Pietro

I understand the low pay, but not as a writer.

Spangles

That is an interesting idea about diminishing returns on quirk (presumably gravity golf quirk?). Do you have experience with this from another course?

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Robin_Hiseman on October 05, 2011, 04:06:52 AM: Adrian: Sign me up for the 'Cotswold Quirk'! That would be a great couple of days. Hawtree may have worked on Cleeve Hill but it would have been before my time. We didn't do anything between 91-96 when I was there. I'd be interested to join you at CH to do a bit of archaeology and see if we can root out those old holes. I didn't play those holes up and down the hill you mention, so would like to see those too.

Tony: Not played Clyne, but walked a coupe of holes with you last year at BUDA.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Mark Pearce on October 05, 2011, 04:43:54 AM: I'm another who'd be up for Cotswold Quirk!
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Ben Stephens on October 05, 2011, 05:20:30 AM: Quote from: Robin_Hiseman on October 05, 2011, 04:06:52 AM
Adrian: Sign me up for the 'Cotswold Quirk'! That would be a great couple of days. Hawtree may have worked on Cleeve Hill but it would have been before my time. We didn't do anything between 91-96 when I was there. I'd be interested to join you at CH to do a bit of archaeology and see if we can root out those old holes. I didn't play those holes up and down the hill you mention, so would like to see those too.

Tony: Not played Clyne, but walked a coupe of holes with you last year at BUDA.

Robin,

There is an 1945 aerial of Cleeve Cloud - its difficult to see where exactly the greens were!

Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on October 05, 2011, 11:13:14 AM: Quote from: Robin_Hiseman on October 05, 2011, 04:06:52 AM
Adrian: Sign me up for the 'Cotswold Quirk'! That would be a great couple of days. Hawtree may have worked on Cleeve Hill but it would have been before my time. We didn't do anything between 91-96 when I was there. I'd be interested to join you at CH to do a bit of archaeology and see if we can root out those old holes. I didn't play those holes up and down the hill you mention, so would like to see those too.

Tony: Not played Clyne, but walked a coupe of holes with you last year at BUDA.
Robin that would be great to uncover the old holes. 7 and 8 were great. April or May would be the best times for a 2 night-4 rounde, just let me know some good dates for everyone. Stinchcombe Hill is another nice shorty thats close and worth an add on.

Friday - Cleeve Hill 2.00 stay Canons Court Mews Night in Chipping Sodbury
Saturday - Painswick 9.30 & Minchinhampton Old 3.00 stay Canons Court Mews Night in Wootton Under Edge
Sunday - Stinchcombe Hill 9.30 & Stranahan Course 3.00

Might be too much golf but I can do that for £149 I think.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on October 05, 2011, 11:18:01 AM: Robin,

There is an 1945 aerial of Cleeve Cloud - its difficult to see where exactly the greens were!

Cheers
Ben
[/quote] Ben - The 1945 and todays aerial are quite similar yet between 1960s and 1990 the course ommitted what is no 10 11 and 12. There was another hole linking between what is now 9 and 13. It appears to me that todays 10-12 are resurrected from the 1940s course. If you look at Google earth you will see a par 3 2nd hole, it was pretty short, that was a newish hole thats already gone.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on October 05, 2011, 11:24:17 AM: Quote from: Brian Sheehy on October 05, 2011, 05:32:42 AM
I am chuckling away to myself reading this tour - where the hell did you find this place?? Do you have a "quirky golf courses containing sheep" guide that you dip into every now and again? :)

Please can you unearth a few gems close to central London and post further details!
Brian - Thats about it for the quirky Gloucestershire courses, Stinchcombe has some cute bits though overall is flatter ground with less abrupt bits. Wiltshire has a few quirky spots at Kingsdown, GCA fans will want to putt for hours on the 4th green and love the green settings at 8, 9, 10. Not much in Somerset I can think off that falls into this category, though further south Yelverton and Tavistock have lots of quirk. I am not familiar enough with the courses going East, but Frilfords Green course might tick some boxes too.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on October 05, 2011, 11:38:20 AM: Quote from: Adrian_Stiff on October 05, 2011, 11:13:14 AM
Quote from: Robin_Hiseman on October 05, 2011, 04:06:52 AM
Adrian: Sign me up for the 'Cotswold Quirk'! That would be a great couple of days. Hawtree may have worked on Cleeve Hill but it would have been before my time. We didn't do anything between 91-96 when I was there. I'd be interested to join you at CH to do a bit of archaeology and see if we can root out those old holes. I didn't play those holes up and down the hill you mention, so would like to see those too.

Tony: Not played Clyne, but walked a coupe of holes with you last year at BUDA.
Robin that would be great to uncover the old holes. 7 and 8 were great. April or May would be the best times for a 2 night-4 rounde, just let me know some good dates for everyone. Stinchcombe Hill is another nice shorty thats close and worth an add on.

Friday - Cleeve Hill 2.00 stay Canons Court Mews Night in Chipping Sodbury
Saturday - Painswick 9.30 & Minchinhampton Old 3.00 stay Canons Court Mews Night in Wootton Under Edge
Sunday - Stinchcombe Hill 9.30 & Stranahan Course 3.00

Might be too much golf but I can do that for £149 I think.

Might be best to take this off line but if I can do it I’m in. Thanks Adrian.

I’d prefer a date in March but that’s just me. Also, finishing Sunday lunchtime would be great (with optional extras for some).
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (finito)
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on October 06, 2011, 12:35:47 AM: Quote from: Sean Arble on October 05, 2011, 02:04:52 AM

Spangles

That is an interesting idea about diminishing returns on quirk (presumably gravity golf quirk?). Do you have experience with this from another course?

Ciao

I’ve asked this Question before when there’s lots of Quirk involved, but you are the first to bite.

My home course Epping GC near London features 3 blind Par 3’s and a very drivable blind par 4. They are all essentially all hit and hope. After 4 years of playing the course these holes have not become more fun each time I play it. Clearly there is an overuse of this ‘Quirky’ feature.

I quite enjoyed having a go at Cruden Bay’s loopy Par 3, No 15, because I wanted to see if I could find the green. In 3 attempts I failed. I know you don’t like it, and maybe it’s a bad example as the design is flawed, but I understand many members don’t like it and I can see why.

I would also add that this kind of hole works less well inland.
Firstly if the soil is clay the bounce is always a bit unpredictable at least compared to a sand based one. Imagining a shot, executing it well and then, if blindness is involved, not having a clue about what happened next can become tiresome. It’s one thing to see a ball bounce off line or to have an option to hit somewhere safe but if it’s the soil or drainage issues causing uncertainty that’s not fun. There was more of this “old fashioned golf” in the (so called) “dark ages”, and it’s the reason why heathland golf was so embraced.
Secondly Quirk plus wind requires a lot more thought than hit to the same place each time and hope.

I’m still undecided on this but like most things in life there’s more nuance to Quirk than just having a love/hate relationship with it. I realise the examples I gave are blind shots so maybe I need to think it out more. Extreme sideways slopes on fairways can get tiring too. Again the secret is not to overuse this feature. Overly canted greens are easily overdone. Epping has two that are extreme and two that are only slightly less than this- acceptable.

On here we may be overrating courses that are a bunch of fun to play a few times because they feature quirk. That’s fine as long as we understand that they may not stand upto repeat play.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Sean_A on October 06, 2011, 03:01:31 AM: Spangles

You sound a bit Dr Macazian. He too wasn't sold on the idea of blind shots - especially approaches.

I still can't really determine what funk is. Most of the time folks refer to funk when its simply a matter of draping a course over the land rather than digging it in per se. For example, I never thought Pennard was funky except for in a few spots (mainly 17). There are not nearly as many blind shots as folks contend and most of those are inconsequential blindness. Perhaps its the whole package of up n' down, elephants' graveyards and consistently true f&f (no watering) conditions which lead people to conclude Pennard is funky. I think of it as good design using what is on offer. Now, I can point to one truly funky course, North Berwick. Me calling it funky is basically due a culmination of the entire course; walls, 16th green, blind shots, water holes, centreline bunker, Redan and a few other reasons. None of the featurs are overdone and they combine to create what IS a unique golfing experience. Then again, we could all say TOC is funky if only for the bunkering and double greens. And then there is Painswick - which may be the ultimate (surviving) design by necessity.

For me, you hit the nail on the head by hinting at conditions. I don't believe Painswick's design is well supported by its turf and maintenance and this is a huge tick against it for me - well that and the 8th & 9th sharing a fairway. I find it amazing that modern archies can harp on about safety issues and not hold this up as one of the most serious safety transgressions in the golf world. I wonder about Cleeve Cloud. In general the turf looks very good, but there are spots which are very dubious. There is of course the issue of drainage as well. Holes designed over hill seams strike me as potentially bad news - like a river runs through it bad news.

I am not sure where I am going with all this except to say that perhaps what we usually mean by funky is budget conscious design by necessity. I have yet to come across one of these sorts of courses that makes me tempted to join and thus test the weeky diet thesis. The closest I have come by far is Kington, but weather conditions are just too severe to really make this a viable option unless I lived much closer to the course. Kington is quite unusual in the funk dept because its funk in the main makes the course MORE playable and highly strategic. Its a superb, incredibly simple, and highly unique solution to the age old problem of hilly terrain.

Sorry if this is all a bit of ramble, but as you say, black n' white for funk just doesn't apply.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: James Boon on October 06, 2011, 04:12:42 AM: Sean,

A great tour, many thanks for posting!

In discussing quirk and safety above you mention 8 and 9 at Painswick sharing a fairway. I have said before that my love of Painswick comes from playing it early morning or less busy periods. However, I can imagine that a busy day with people walking, biking and picnicking all over the course as well as more than a handful of fourballs, could be nothing short of Russian Roulette? If Adrian arranges the Cotswold Quirk, I'd happily tag along, complete with hard hat! ;D

Thanks again!

Cheers,

James
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Mark Pearce on October 06, 2011, 10:02:14 AM: Good quirk endures, bad quirk doesn't. I've never heard anyone complain that the quirk at Elie gets tired because, fundamentally, the quirky holes are good holes. I got bored of 15 at Cruden Bay with one play. Bad architecture is bad, however quirky.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Bill_McBride on October 06, 2011, 02:55:42 PM: Sean, that aerial of #13 looks a lot like the hilltop Iron Age fort at Painswick. Parallel trenches make the fortifications.

Hard to believe, but Cleeve Cloud looks even more quirky than Painswick!
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Jason Topp on October 06, 2011, 03:27:41 PM: Sean:

You must hold some kind of record for dodging the most sheep droppings of anyone on this site. Thanks for the tour.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Sean_A on October 07, 2011, 12:07:04 PM: Ace

Cleeve Cloud is Painswick light as there is no course on earth as quirky as Painswick.

Mr Topp

I don't always avoid the sheep dip!

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Sean_A on March 31, 2012, 05:10:36 PM: The Winter Tour concluded today, please take a look at the slightly updated tour. The wind was 180 degrees to the last time out and the course played just as well. In fact, it was most impressive. The course holds up quite well to the bangers, even the smooth swinging cranker, Ben, couldn't break 75 in a mild wind of 12ish mph.

Previous stops:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51629.0.html Painswick

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25590.0.html Droitwich

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35050.0.html Blackwell

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42178.0.html Stratford

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51420.0.html Saunton West

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51415.0.html Saunton East

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51321.0.html Sutton Coldfield

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html Huntercombe

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35648.0.html Whittington Heath

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40029.0.html Edgbaston

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50805.0.html Sherwood Forest

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html Woking

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50427.0.html Berkhamsted

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46538.0.html Coxmoor

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.0.html Temple

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html Little Aston

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html Beau Desert

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html Notts

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50088.0.html The Old Course

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50086.0.html The New Course

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50078.0.html The Castle Course

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html Kington

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37526.0.html Harborne

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.0.html Worcester G&CC

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2011/12 Winter Tour
Post by: Ben Stephens on April 01, 2012, 03:47:40 PM: Sean (or should it be Fidel? with a red cap and a cigar! ;D),

Firstly for the game of golf 'Walking in the Clouds' I had a hoot walking up and down the 'Himalayan' course at Cleeve Hill

Secondly for the updated photo thread which included me in that blasted ditch on the 18th - my ball just caught the top of the bank and came back in the ditch and rolled downwards from right to left by 30 yards!!

Thirdly for mentioning that I did not break 75 - I actually got 76 (with no birdies and would have had 74 hadnt I not missed that little tiddler on 17th and not been in that ditch on 18!) the holes are a tough birdie but an easy par at times!

Really enjoyable course with the widest fairways I have ever seen in my life with lovely green surroundings and setting!

Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2011/12 Winter Tour
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on April 01, 2012, 04:55:44 PM: I'd forgotten it was CC that generated that debate and started the process for this past excelelnt weekend.

Now I've played it I have to say it's clearly a superior course to Epping but I still don't know how 'good' it is. Still I think everyone should see it for themselves and if you don’t enjoy your day it’s probably because you’re dead.

Ben you must have been nailing your shots. Trying to figure out the wind and the slopes, on a day I was hitting it indifferently, did for me. I think you have to be much more focussed and precise here than at Minchampton. Sometimes an average drive finished 50 yards off line , the net effect was often just to make the hole play a good deal longer but still...

Sean I liked the green on 8 but I am at a complete loss as to what you like about the 10th?

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Cleeve%20Hill%20GC/026.jpg?t=1317403550)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Cleeve%20Hill%20GC/027.jpg?t=1317403550)

Hit and hope to a bland green partly obscured by gorse. I thought you disliked both drop shot par 3’s and gorse? What gives? IMO easily the worst hole on the course.

The course to compare this with is Minchampton. Due to the extreme slopes this is a better test off the tee and has some stunning holes; but I thought the best green sites at Minchampton were better than anything here.

Very cool mini tour. Thanks Adrian for superb organisation and I do suggest anyone wanting to play in this area contact Adrian for beautiful accommodation and superb value.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2011/12 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on April 01, 2012, 06:23:26 PM: Spangles

I think all three of Painswick, Minch Old and Cleeve Cloud are totally different in their designs and more importantly how they feel. Thinking on that, the similar age of all three on similar soil - this is quite remarkable.

I disagree concerning green sites. Cleeve Cloud has some terrific sites in #s 5, 6, 12, 13 and 17 with the fifth being awesome. The best sites at Minch Old are 5, 8, 10, 11 and 16. I don't see any discernible difference in quality between the two.

#10 is interesting because of the wind and ground conditions. I might also add that it is highly unusual being in the seam of a valley.

Having thought on it some, I still prefer Cleeve Cloud to either Painswick or Minch Old. The fantastic views and space sell it for me. That said, I like all three and would go back to all even if I don't think I would recommend folks go out of their way for a game at Minch Old. I highly suspect that Quirky Cotswolders will place Minch Old #3, although, I really like the multiple use of the land and it is what I think of as true common land.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2011/12 Winter Tour
Post by: Robert Thompson on April 01, 2012, 08:31:49 PM: Ian Andrew and I have spoken for a while about doing a UK trip that doesn't take in any big names. Cleeve looks exactly like a course one would like to see --- but wouldn't be on most lists. Kind of like our visit to Delamere Forest a couple of years back -- great golf. And there's so much of it throughout England that is rarely discussed.

Thanks for the tour Sean.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2011/12 Winter Tour
Post by: Ben Stephens on April 02, 2012, 04:40:21 AM: Quote from: Robert Thompson on April 01, 2012, 08:31:49 PM
Ian Andrew and I have spoken for a while about doing a UK trip that doesn't take in any big names. Cleeve looks exactly like a course one would like to see --- but wouldn't be on most lists. Kind of like our visit to Delamere Forest a couple of years back -- great golf. And there's so much of it throughout England that is rarely discussed.

Thanks for the tour Sean.

Robert,

There are a few more quirky courses within a 100 mile radius of Bristol, other than Painswick, Cleeve Cloud and Minchinhampton there are also:

Stinchcombe Hill which I thought was an enjoyable 5800 yarder on top of a hill and it is close by.

There is also West Monmouthshire in Wales for quirkiness and further North there is Llandrindod Wells and Kington.

Also further west there is Southerndown and Pyle + Kenfig which are a must play.

Birmingham area (Arble's blighty backyard) is an hour away

If you need accomodation please IM Adrian Stiff as he has fantastic facilities available - I am sure Tony will also testify.

Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2011/12 Winter Tour
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on April 03, 2012, 07:35:15 AM: This was the most testing of the three with a reasonable bit of wind thrown in. Note: dress well when up there it quickly chills you. For some reason it had the least grass on it of the three.

I have to admit I underestimated the challenge of this course. With everything looking so wide open I kept firing away to little effect. You get some pretty extreme lies here and trying to hit a mid long iron off them in a cross wind is little short of folly, when an average shot can run 70 yards down and away.

A final thought. There are a few too many blind tee shots. It’s not much fun repeatedly aiming at a direction pole, but it’s hard to see what else they could have done.

Having said all that I can’t wait to go back.

The 13th is as Sean says astonishing, but I can’t help dreaming about bringing it forward a little and putting a Biarritz style swale in the that green where it runs between the two parralel mounds. Watching the ball run down hill, disappearing and then reappearing would be magic.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Cleeve%20Hill%20GC/014.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Cleeve%20Hill%20GC/036.jpg?t=1317403550)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af45/jronimo/3396869018_cb5200c615_b.jpg)

I realise this is making a tough hole harder but I can’t help fantasising about it.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2011/12 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on April 03, 2012, 09:12:57 AM: Spangles

I too wonder how the grass was so short all over the place. I presume animals were involved (I did see some in the summer) as I can't imagine the course being mowed to such width. Mentioning the width, it is incredible how wide so many of the holes are and yet how easy it is to be out of position. One has to pay attention to the wind in setting up for approaches. Remember, the wind was only about 12mph, but from the northeast. Our group had only one birdie! As I say, Cleeve Cloud is a totally different animal to Painswick. Painswick is a MUCH more prescribed (tighter and far more forced carries) course where the real choice off the tee is about laying up or going for it. In the end, as it is with all golf, both are target courses (stupid phrase really), but what matters is how one gets to the target.

You are right, there are too many blind shots at Cleeve Cloud, but they are nearly all inconsequential because of width. I think Painswick has too many greens running steeply away from downhill fairways. It gets old trying to figure out where one can land a shot and the consequences are far greater than the blind shots at CC.

I wonder if the club can further alter the 13th green?

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on February 03, 2013, 01:08:40 PM: Its been a dreadful tour to date - only seven venues visited - the weather has been that bad. Last Friday we headed up the hill for a game hoping for dry conditions and for the most part we were successful. Though there were several squelchy areas which could have used a good mudder plodding about. Anyway, an updated tour.

Previous stops on the 2012/13 Winter Tour

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.msg777627.html#msg777627 Temple

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html Beau Desert

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36467.0.html New Zealand

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54349.0.html West Berkshire

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51321.0.html Sutton Coldfield

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42178.0.html Stratford upon Avon

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Phil McDade on February 03, 2013, 02:42:30 PM: Thanks Sean, for bringing this course back to the forefront; it's one of the more fascinating course yours I've seen posted here.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Neil White on February 16, 2013, 10:32:13 AM: I had the pleasure of joining Sean for a game at Cleeve Cloud and came away with a pretty high estimation of the course, especially when compared to both Church Stretton and Kington.

Whilst not as hard a test of golf than either Church Stretton or Kington, Cleeve offered up an alternative challenge dictated on the whole by the amount of room available and numerous sidehill approaches, that I imagine in the summer would need plenty of skill and luck to find the necessary angle into the green sites.

I also found it an 'easy' walk despite the number of climbs that I felt were punctuated perfectly with descents which came as a welcome break throughout the round.

I took the liberty of taking a few photos during the round - some may be duplicated from Sean's collection so please forgive me.

No. 1 - A blind drive leads to an approach into a green best taken on from the left - this photo shows the view coming in over an approach bunker on the right.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_112126_1_zpsc5964e68.jpg)

From the right of the green you can see a small rise created to make an approach from this side more problematic.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_112546_1_zps1c8c437f.jpg)

No. 2 - A fantastic green site - and one of only a few on Cleeve Cloud that are more akin to those found on Church Stretton and particularly Kington. This photo also gives an indication of the steep slopes encountered at Cleeve.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_113301_1_zps470502ef.jpg)

And from the rear with a tricky greenside bunker set a good 3 or 4 feet above the green.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_114020_1_zps53cdaf80.jpg)

No. 3 - Another photo showing the topography of the site - this time just after the drive up onto a plateau which holds the green. My drive went right of the post and left a tricky chip into the green.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_114041_1_zps9bfa66f5.jpg)

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_114258_1_zps35a5d464.jpg)

No. 4 - The view from behind the fourth green shows the openness of the course - from right to left are the fairways of the fourth, fifth and seventh.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_120030_1_zpsfc6a2e8b.jpg)

No. 5 - An interesting green location set in between gorse bushes. Your drive wants to take the slope and leak to the right, leaving a blind second - however to be able to see the green requires a drive that flirts precariously with the gorse on the left, as I found out to my cost.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_120617_1_zps4dc8b110.jpg)

No. 6 - A hole with a certain 'wow' factor. Only a flick with a mid to short iron but anything coming up short or right is dead.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_121603_1_zpsd9a43863.jpg)

No. 7 - Another stunning greensite. From the fairway you get no indication of what lies immediately behind the green.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_122803_1_zps3f8a7e29.jpg)

The green also slopes severely from back to front making any recovery from the rear ever so awkward.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_123152_1_zps9afe38a6.jpg)

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_122842_1_zps450567b2.jpg)

No. 8 - A drive straight uphill - again giving indication to the space afforded to you when playing Cleeve.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_123527_1_zps421c3c9e.jpg)

No. 9 - As is the case on many of the holes at Cleeve finding the wrong side of the fairway can make your approach tricky. This photo is of the green from the 10th tee and suggests that coming in from the right is virtually impossible due to the steep slope and bunker.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_125412_1_zps92b0e826.jpg)
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Neil White on February 16, 2013, 11:26:45 AM: No. 10 - Whilst not as visually dramatic as the other Par 3's on Cleeve the tenth is still no shrinking violet. Unable to see the green due to gorse blocking your view you get no indication just how much room there is to the right of the green. Using the left route as an approach is complicated by longer grass which will hold up your ball.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_125814_1_zps9bfec210.jpg)

No. 12 - Yet another blind drive up a steep hill this time leaving a mid-iron approach into a green set further up the hill. The green is benched into the hill side and has a dramatic fall off at the front. This photo taken from the rear also hides the fact that at the front right is a deep grass bunker making any recovery from there very difficult.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_132532_1_zpse7bd443b.jpg)

No. 13 - Cleeves standout hole due to its green location within the earthwork of an old fort. Everything on Cleeve is large in scale - the same goes for the 150 yard markers which are hewn out of huge pieces of quarry stone.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_133320_1_zpseb0cc444.jpg)

The 'bridge' as Sean refers to it that connects the fairway to the green is very narrowly cut out of the earthworks - anything right or left of this leaves an almost impossible recovery shot onto a steep front to rear sloping green.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_133511_1_zps6999c164.jpg)

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_133553_1_zpse5b05966.jpg)

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_133952_1_zps64e9f982.jpg)

No. 14 - After a further blind drive over the crest of a hill the fourteenth presents itself with a greensite that runs along the spine of the hill. Left is best into this green as a grass bunker and narrow swale sit between you and the green on the right hand side.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_134942_1_zpsa324ca06.jpg)

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_135000_1_zps99c6d5a2.jpg)

No. 15 - The first of two par 3's on the bounce which make good use of 'dead' ground between tee and green. On this occasion it is a deep quarry.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_135406_1_zps3e0e8c82.jpg)

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_135631_1_zps1e5c270e.jpg)

No. 16 - And on this one it is some wonderful naturalised former quarry land....... Just shy of 200 yards and uphill to boot too.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_140125_1_zps27a33681.jpg)

No. 17 - A downhill par 4 where the fairway narrows severely between two immense quarry pits. I took 3 wood off the tee and was left with a decent view into the green. The right hand greenside bunker sits perfectly where you want to run your ball into the green so an aerial shot is required or you accept your approach leaks left with the slope.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_141654_1_zps98344e5f.jpg)

No. 18 - A mid-length par 4 to a greensite benched into the hillside. Short and left of the green reminds you again of the type of land on which you have played at Cleeve.

(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/nyt1976/CloudCleeveGC/20130215_143309_zps98d7fccf.jpg)

I had very little in the way of expectation with Cleeve - whilst nowhere near as tight as either Kington or Church Stretton it had its own appeal and is a definite replay in the summer when I imagine the challenge will be heightened by faster and firmer conditions.

Another big plus is that it was only £13.00 to play with a county card. Stunning.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Neil White on February 17, 2013, 08:36:28 AM: Quote from: Brian Sheehy on February 17, 2013, 06:19:46 AM
Absolutely heavenly. Thanks Neil - amazing pics, especially 16!

Thanks Brian.

It really was an experience to behold - the views on the day we played were fantastic with near 100% visibility 360 degrees round. The course really does deserve the 'Cloud' in its name as you feel you are playing at the foot of heaven.

Neil.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on February 17, 2013, 11:10:42 AM: Thanks Neil glad you liked it. I liked it so much I played i twice last year.

Re the 17th, I recall its 377 yards. With a following wind Adam Lawrence of this parish drove over the hill and onto the green. Certainly one of the most impressive shots I've seen!
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Niall C on February 18, 2013, 02:33:27 PM: After playing this course with Tony and others I had to go see my doctor with vertigo. Tony induced a panic attack by merely pointing out Cheltenham race course in the distance. The only way I could stop myself goig into hysterics was by concentrating on the ground a few feet in front of me. Never been so glad to get off a golf course in my life.

The doctor, btw, suggested that I attend psychiatric group therapy. I politely declined the offer.

Niall
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Thomas Dai on February 18, 2013, 03:06:14 PM: Great photos. Well done to all for posting them. Would love to play it and so would some friends. How hilly is it in comparison to say Kington or Church Stretton or Painswick? Do you reckon it's walkable (using an electric power trolley) for someone a bit aged or unfit or not in the greatest of health? Advice welcome.

All the best.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on February 19, 2013, 04:40:29 PM: In the spirit of the anti-snobbery thread, this thread gives me heart and hope for this board. Imagine 2000 hits for a muni in Gloucestershire!

Thomas

All four courses are a fairly tough walk. I think Kington's is managed the best because the front 9 climbs while the back 9 descends. The other three involve up n' down, up n' down....That said, all are walkable especially with a battery trolley. In fact, they are more walkable (perhaps partly because of the great scenery) than many a modern design.

Neil

I am glad you liked the Cleeve Cloud. Lets plan to get back soon.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Bill_McBride on February 19, 2013, 07:41:16 PM: Quote from: Sean Arble on February 19, 2013, 04:40:29 PM
In the spirit of the anti-snobbery thread, this thread gives me heart and hope for this board. Imagine 2000 hits for a muni in Gloucestershire!

Thomas

All four courses are a fairly tough walk. I think Kington's is managed the best because the front 9 climbs while the back 9 descends. The other three involve up n' down, up n' down....That said, all are walkable especially with a battery trolley. In fact, they are more walkable (perhaps partly because of the great scenery) than many a modern design.

Neil

I am glad you liked the Cleeve Cloud. Lets plan to get back soon.

Ciao

My little wife (literally at 5', 105 lbs) is a great walker. Her big problem at Painswick was climbing up the steep precipices at 5 and 10, but I was a good guy and helped her schlep up the hill with her trolley. It was a lot easier with a Sun Mountain Mini and 11 clubs.

Haven't played the others dang it.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Mike Hendren on February 20, 2013, 01:56:34 PM: Exhibit A to support the contention that there is absolutely no excuse for rote and pedestrian golf course design and construction:

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/Cleeve%20Hill%20GC/001_zps45b0ab67.jpg)

Stunning.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2012/13 Winter Tour
Post by: Thomas Dai on February 20, 2013, 02:27:28 PM: Sean and Bill,

Many thanks for the advice. I'll chat with my chums and try to get along to there soon.

All the best
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2013/14 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on February 07, 2014, 07:11:31 PM: Please see updated tour.

This is the first game in a spell and I reckoned Cleeve Cloud would be the ONLY dry course within a very long drive of my house...and so it proved to be the case. Cleeve Cloud is standing up quite admirably to the foul weather these past 8 weeks have thrown at poor ole England. I have seen Cleeve Cloud enough times now to be satisfied that it offers enough challenge, beauty and interest at an incredibly reasonable green fee to warrant 1*

Previous Stops on the Tour:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.0.html) Worcester G&CC

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35648.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35648.0.html) Whittington Heath

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57487.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57487.0.html) West Hill

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57396.msg1340334.html#msg1340334 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57396.msg1340334.html#msg1340334) Walton Heath Old

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57349.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57349.0.html) Sandy Lodge

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,26579.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,26579.0.html) Tadmarton Heath

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51321.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51321.0.html) Sutton Coldfield Recommended in Winter Only

Next Scheduled Stop: Pennard
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2013/14 Winter Tour
Post by: Jon Wiggett on December 06, 2014, 03:38:08 AM: I hope you have a super day Brian.

Jon
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2013/14 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on December 06, 2014, 03:53:27 AM: Tour slightly updated. The more I play Cleeve Cloud the better it seems to get.

Previous stops on the tour:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59831.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59831.0.html) Cumberwell Park Orange

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html) Kington

Next scheduled stop is Worplesdon.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2014/15 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on December 11, 2014, 01:56:23 PM: So, what say the Mighty Sheehy?

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2014/15 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on July 13, 2015, 07:06:00 AM: A surprise visit last week caught Cleeve Cloud in damn near prefect conditions. The fairways are the narrowest on the planet, but the sheep take care of business :) . The whispiness of the rough is a dream come true with slightly awkard lies, but balls are easy to find. Much like Kington, Cleeve Cloud played like a links in the sky. See updated pix.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: John Mayhugh on July 13, 2015, 10:39:50 PM: It's safe to say that without this photo tour, I would never have seen Cleeve Cloud (Cleeve Hill). What a shame that would have been. Thanks to Sean's posts, I've now visited Kington, Cleeve Cloud, and Church Stretton. These are probably the three highest courses in England, and all show how much interest (and fun) can be accomplished on a hill that wouldn't seem suitable for a course. It seems natural to compare the three to each other, but I think that each can be compared favorably with a number of more "proper" courses.

Cleeve Cloud is a much easier walk than one might think, and the views often distract from focusing on the shot. I can only imagine what it would be like playing the second nine during the Cheltenham festival.

Given the nature of the site, there are a lot of blind shots, but it's something of a model for blindness, as there is a lot of room for error without risking lost balls.

I loved it.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Sean_A on July 16, 2015, 03:18:55 AM: Tucky

The aspect of the blind drives was a point my bro in-law made as well. Of course, this also points to CC's biggest weakness...there isn't enough pressure on the driver.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Sean_A on April 26, 2016, 01:24:26 PM: Unusually, I made another stop at Cleeve Cloud this winter. This doesn't seem like it should be winter, but its been cold, we had snow a week or so ago, today it we had sleet and the temp dropped to below 40F. This is likely my last stop on the tour, but one never knows if this poor weather will continue.

The course was in fine nick with running fairways and greens that were quicker than they looked like they might be. See updated tour.

I am told Doak stopped by this winter...lets hope he chips in.

Previous Tour Stops on the 2015-16 Winter Tour

Kington http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html)

B&B Channel http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,62038.msg1473736.html#msg1473736 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,62038.msg1473736.html#msg1473736)

Little Aston http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.msg1158969.html#msg1158969 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.msg1158969.html#msg1158969)

Walton Heath New http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60107.msg1420813.html#msg1420813 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60107.msg1420813.html#msg1420813)

Cleeve Cloud http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html)

Huntercombe http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.msg1171492.html#msg1171492 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.msg1171492.html#msg1171492)

Broadway front 9 http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44266.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44266.0.html)

Beau Desert http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html)

WHO
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61415.msg1460548.html#msg1460548 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61415.msg1460548.html#msg1460548)

Formby http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html)

Formby Ladies
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1494172.html#msg1494172 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1494172.html#msg1494172)

Notts
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.msg1137972.html#msg1137972 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.msg1137972.html#msg1137972)

Scheduled Tour Stops - none

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Tom_Doak on April 27, 2016, 11:46:44 AM: Quote from: Sean_A on April 26, 2016, 01:24:26 PM

I am told Doak stopped by this winter...lets hope he chips in.

Sean:

Yes, Clyde Johnson and I stopped through Cleeve on our way from Pennard to Woodhall Spa in January, which is not the easiest of drives. The days were so short, and Huw at Pennard went on talking for so long after lunch, that we only had about a half hour of light to go out for a quick walk to the top of the hill and back ... and many of the fairways were a bit frosty as well.

So, we only got to see the first few holes and the 17th and 18th. I must say that it's impossible for the photos here to capture the scale of the hills at Cleeve -- they are way bigger than I imagined, to the point that I can't say I have seen another course on similar land. Wish I'd seen it before my book was complete. Can't wait to go back and play it whenever I am next in the vicinity.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Sean_A on April 30, 2016, 07:46:32 PM: Quote from: Tom_Doak on April 27, 2016, 11:46:44 AM
Quote from: Sean_A on April 26, 2016, 01:24:26 PM

I am told Doak stopped by this winter...lets hope he chips in.

Sean:

Yes, Clyde Johnson and I stopped through Cleeve on our way from Pennard to Woodhall Spa in January, which is not the easiest of drives. The days were so short, and Huw at Pennard went on talking for so long after lunch, that we only had about a half hour of light to go out for a quick walk to the top of the hill and back ... and many of the fairways were a bit frosty as well.

So, we only got to see the first few holes and the 17th and 18th. I must say that it's impossible for the photos here to capture the scale of the hills at Cleeve -- they are way bigger than I imagined, to the point that I can't say I have seen another course on similar land. Wish I'd seen it before my book was complete. Can't wait to go back and play it whenever I am next in the vicinity.

Tom

I did try to get you out to CC during one of your whirlwind tours!

There is a lot of up n' down...too much for ideal golf. The hills are a double edge as they are the source of much of the character, but also one of the biggest weaknesses.

Its incredible how different Painswick and CC are given the land is quite similar. CC feels like it could go on forever while Painswick feels like there is only room for 13 holes :D

Give me a shout should you decide to give CC a go.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2015-16 Winter Tour
Post by: Thomas Dai on October 17, 2016, 11:17:25 AM: After far, far too long I finally made it to play at Cleeve recently accompanied by another regular contributed herein plus son and heir. I (we) was really impressed. A whole bunch of excellent holes, not so obvious driving lines, some super greensites, interesting architect etc, all as already described in detail above, and not as hilly as I'd expected either. We didn't get to play the 18th hole however, heavy rain came lashing down so we legged it pretty quick, but overall it was thoroughly enjoyable. Now I can better appreciate why others posting herein have written so positively about the course over the years. No comparison analysis to Painswick, Minch' Old or Stinchcombe Hill yet though! I look forward the returning to Cleeve again.....given the views and scenary it must be an amazing course to play on a balmy mid-summers evening.
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Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2015-16 Winter Tour
Post by: Thomas Dai on October 18, 2016, 05:01:58 AM: Some photos of Cleeve from different angles to supplement those already posted above.

From the Men's 1st medal tee you drive over the large rocks positioned to the left side of the white car!
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1040838_zpsbitu4koe.jpg)

Directional marker pole and 150 yd stone on 2nd fairway with the town of Winchcombe in the background.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1040842_zpsvjenu5it.jpg)

Miss the par-3 6th green to the right and your in this..........and there are many quarries at Cleeve Hill that are much deeper than this one.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1040846_zpsh6aw9hgw.jpg)

From the 11th fairway looking back towards the 11th tee. Looks hilly and yes it is. But the routing alleviates much climbing.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1040851_zpsrhvhwxx4.jpg)

The lovely/evil 13th green photographed from the front left side.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1040854%201_zpsydhh9lyo.jpg)

atb
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD (1 thru 13)
Post by: Sean_A on February 25, 2019, 10:33:36 AM: Quote from: Melvyn Morrow on October 02, 2011, 01:53:40 PM
Adrian

First we have the rumour that Old Tom was involved, but later generations can't find any information. Yet it’s interesting that this statement was issued in the last few years re OTM and no proof.

The Golfers Guide has been rather realisable to date, albeit published 4 years after the event. Yet we have the newspaper article clearly stating his return from Cheltenham in April 1891 the month after the club was formed. Also interesting is the comment about Davie Brown's brother being the Green Keeper.

So we have three things putting OTM at Cheltenham, two in writing and one printed a few days after his return. As for any holes left, I just do not know.

Had it just been the rumour then there are grounds to dismiss it out of hand but two separate reports one published at the time in a National newspaper, make it more believable. But as I said you can take it or leave it.

Melvyn

Well, I reckon Melvyn was right. He found this article below and a map of the original OTM design. I don't think many holes remain, but I don't think there is much doubt the The Camp green is OTM's.

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7912/40244151953_50f229772a_b.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7912/40244151953_50f229772a_b.jpg)

Thanks Melvyn!

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 04, 2020, 03:11:36 PM: I have no direct information, but I saw in a tweet (member?) that Cleeve Hill will close as of the end of the financial year 2021! I don't know any details, but I do know the course has been struggling for some time as the membership is very low.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Robin_Hiseman on September 04, 2020, 03:54:20 PM: Sean

That would be a tragedy, so I hope that your information is wrong.

Cleeve is part of the Playmore Golf Flexible Membership scheme. Adrian Stiff is probably the guy to tell us what he thinks about the virtues of this scheme from the perspective of a course owner. £350 a year will buy an annual sub at Cleeve and allow the members of 260+ other courses to play there free of charge. That's no kind of sustainable business model for the operator.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on September 05, 2020, 03:14:27 AM: Robin,

That's not an entirely fair description of the PlayMoreGolf model. PMG members get 100 points for their £350 - 80 of which they can only use at their home club and 20 which they can use either at their home club or at any of the other clubs in the scheme. When points are used at an "away" course, that club receives a payment from PMG based on the number of points charged for a round at that club at that particular time and day.

Adrian's objections to PMG appear to be down the prices clubs choose to charge their members for each round of golf, rather than the model itself. That and the charges PMG make for recruiting the new members in the first place.

As for Cleeve Hill/Cloud, is it that one of the clubs attached to the course is in financial difficulties, or has the local authority decided to close the course?

If the former, it doesn't necessarily sound terminal. Plenty of municipal courses keep going after the management fails. A new club could be phoenixed from the ashes of the old.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 05, 2020, 10:07:29 AM: Quote from: Robin_Hiseman on September 04, 2020, 03:54:20 PM
Sean

That would be a tragedy, so I hope that your information is wrong.

Doc

Sorry, it was an Instagram post from a member of Cleeve Cloud :'(

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50307636033_ee5d0e7fb9_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50307636033_ee5d0e7fb9_b.jpg)

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on September 05, 2020, 12:06:52 PM: The closure is nothing to do with Covid 19.

Not sure if it can be saved or if saved enough people would play, sadly the GCA good eye is often not the good eye financially.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Thomas Dai on September 05, 2020, 12:15:22 PM: 31st March is only 7 months away.
Play CC while you can.
Atb
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on September 05, 2020, 12:46:19 PM: Depressing. I've had 3 great fun rounds here and will go back on the Monday after BUDA. Anyone?

I'm not sure this is quirk in the sense I think most golfers mean. It's excellent golf on a highly tilted course! Balls seem hard to lose (unless MILES offline) and good shots are rewarded. Cheltenham is close by and yet they can't attract enough members in 2020.
Its a sad mystery to me.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 05, 2020, 12:51:26 PM: It's an important distinction to find out whether it's the course or just the club that may close.

Can someone find out how much is spent each year on maintaining the course? It wouldn't seem like a big number.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 05, 2020, 01:42:48 PM: Quote from: Tom_Doak on September 05, 2020, 12:51:26 PM
It's an important distinction to find out whether it's the course or just the club that may close.

Can someone find out how much is spent each year on maintaining the course? It wouldn't seem like a big number.

It's the course that will close. There is a lease on the land for a course. The good news is the course is privately owned common land so there aren't many alternative uses.

I don't know the operating costs, but I believe the house is a mandatory separate Council lease The house is a tip and doesn't drag in incredible foot traffic. With only 200ish members that doesn't work.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: John Mayhugh on September 05, 2020, 05:43:24 PM: 2020 just keeps getting worse. Awful news. Hopeful something can be done to keep it as a golf course. I loved it.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on September 06, 2020, 02:03:15 AM: There was a nature programme on BBC Radio 4 this week about Cleeve Common. It sounds a lovely place.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000m4qd (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000m4qd)

The golf course was mentioned in passing, with a member helpfully describing it as "not a great golf course but a great place to play golf."

I suspect that far more local people use the common for dog walking, cycling, and generally getting out in the open air than play golf there. Yet a few golfers must impact seriously on all these other users of an amenity with "common" rights.

I can only imagine that the majority of local residents would be delighted if they could enjoy an area of local beauty without running the gauntlet of flying golf balls. It's their common too, after all.

Golf does not appear prominently on the website of the charitable trust which administers the common.

https://www.cleevecommon.org.uk/ (https://www.cleevecommon.org.uk/)

I'm not sure what traction there would be locally for a campaign to save Cleeve Hill Golf Course. To most non-golfers it is surely an historic anachronism that there is even a golf course there. The golfers of Gloucestershire certainly don't seem to value it too highly and prefer to play elsewhere on "proper" courses. Are a few GCA wingnuts sufficient to save a place like this? I would hope so.

Cleeve Common is not publicly owned, but is common land. I guess much rests on the attitude of the actual landowners and Tewkesbury Borough Council, who appear to have something to do with the course.

Sean?
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 06, 2020, 02:38:06 AM: Quote from: Duncan Cheslett on September 06, 2020, 02:03:15 AM
There was a nature programme on BBC Radio 4 this week about Cleeve Common. It sounds a lovely place.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000m4qd (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000m4qd)

The golf course was mentioned in passing, with a member helpfully describing it as "not a great golf course but a great place to play golf."

I suspect that far more local people use the common for dog walking, cycling, and generally getting out in the open air than play golf there. Yet a few golfers must impact seriously on all these other users of a commonly owned amenity.

I can only imagine that the majority of local taxpayers would be delighted if they could enjoy an area of local beauty without running the gauntlet of flying golf balls. It's their common too, after all.

I'm not sure what traction there would be locally for a campaign to save Cleeve Hill Golf Course. To most non-golfers it is surely an historic anachronism that there is even a golf course there. The golfers of Gloucestershire certainly don't seem to value it too highly and prefer to play elsewhere on "proper" courses. Are a few GCA wingnuts sufficient to save a place like this?

Sean?

As the land is privately owned I would think the owners don't share your perspective. Obviously the tenant is struggling to make the lease pay. The shame of it is CC is really in the same class of course as Brora. A little fame can go a long way.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on September 06, 2020, 02:50:28 AM: Sean,

While you were replying I was modifying my post to reflect the research I had been doing into the ownership of the Common.

It is all rather confusing - who actually owns the place? What is the involvement of Tewkesbury Council, on whose behalf the golf club administer the course? How many golf clubs are there? I've heard mention both of Cleeve Hill and Cleeve Cloud.

Possibly more importantly, who owns the clubhouse? Tip or not, it undoubtedly has a value, even if only for its footprint.

If it is just a case of a tenant getting into financial difficulties surely there is an opportunity for a new tenant taking over? The course will still be there.

Dog walkers and horse riders contribute nothing to a landowner's coffers. A golf course will provide revenue of a few grand a year at least.

You're right about a bit of fame. A successful crowdfunding appeal could go a long way to raising not only money, but public awareness. It's worked in spades for Brora and Cavendish!
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 06, 2020, 03:27:18 AM: I am not confident of the complete situation. I believe the land is privately owned common land leased to a Trust connected with the common land who lease it the borough council who lease it and the house to a golf operator (a club rep?). The house is a separate lease and may be owned by the local borough council, but I think whoever takes the course has to take the house as well. I believe the pro has a separate lease for his shop.

Think of Cleeve Hill as privately owned course which has members who have no say in the management of the course etc. There are plenty of courses like this in the UK, its just that Cleeve Hill is on common land which seriously limits its potential use.

The golf course existed when the land was registered as common land. Golfers and other recreational users have co-existed for a loooooong time.

I don't know what the club (Cleeve Cloud) is doing about the situation, but I don't believe they have a financial stake other than dues.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on September 06, 2020, 03:58:26 AM: Quote from: Sean_A on September 06, 2020, 03:27:18 AM

The house is a separate lease, but I think whoever takes the course has to take the house as well.

This is most likely the main problem.

Quote from: Sean_A on September 06, 2020, 03:27:18 AM
The golf course existed when the land was registered as common land. Golfers and other recreational users have co-existed for a loooooong time.

I'm sure you're right. However, in the current litigious age of health and safety and risk assessments, for how long can golfers and other recreational users of any land co-exist?
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 06, 2020, 04:13:30 AM: Quote from: Duncan Cheslett on September 06, 2020, 03:58:26 AM
Quote from: Sean_A on September 06, 2020, 03:27:18 AM

The house is a separate lease, but I think whoever takes the course has to take the house as well.

This is most likely the main problem.

Quote from: Sean_A on September 06, 2020, 03:27:18 AM
The golf course existed when the land was registered as common land. Golfers and other recreational users have co-existed for a loooooong time.

I'm sure you're right. However, in the current litigious age of health and safety and risk assessments, for how long can golfers and other recreational users of any land co-exist?

I am skeptical of H&S explanations for anything. Much of the time H&S is used as an excuse.

I would be curious to know what the insurance is for golfers/walkers being injured on a golf course due to an accidental terrible shot rather than stupid decision-making. I am guessing public liability premiums aren't onerously expensive. Its pretty easy to build the insurance aspect into the green fee. I recall getting an insurance ticket at Borth and Ynyslas when the green fee was paid.

At Cleeve Hill, if walkers stick to paths (and most of the time even if they don't), its quite easy to play safely. There are no trees blocking views and hiding walkers such as is the case at Reigate Heath and Meyrick Park. Plus, Cleeve Hill is on a huge site of something like 1000 acres.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on September 06, 2020, 06:02:40 AM: The 'trustees' of the land don't want golf there. That seems the biggest problem. Tewksbury Borough Council are not onside.

CC only has 180 members so no clout to claim it is well used, some winter days no one plays, it is like Siberia up there.

The rent for the course is very high.

The green fees are very cheap, membership is very cheap, the club to survive have been doing all sorts of rat-shit deals, where as a better route might be to promote it is as good and charge proper money but I suspect it would be a wasted route as fundamentally no one really wants to play golf there unless it is cheap, the GCA group/type are a tiny fraction of what people actually want.

Clubhouse is a valuable plot. Currently not in great shape.

I would imagine it is a one man job to maintain. I think they may not take as much as 200k in a year.

H & S issues over common land can be very difficult to navigate. I have had one situation where the course was forced to close because the footpath/golf course situation was too dangerous. Yes it got insurance but only with a £1000 excess and the excess was likely to double with each claim....we live in a world where it is easy to say "My son Tim was hit by a golf ball whilst flying his kite"....the solicitors will advise to settle. People know how they can extract a grand or two very easily, having a difficult excess situation is a reason not to invest a lot of money into a project, I think CC is more free roam or wants to be free to roam to the public a bit like Painswick.

I think CC is actually quite busy atm with the 'spike'.

Will find out more this week.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 06, 2020, 12:08:59 PM: Adrian's post highlights what a complicated mess modern society has made out of something that worked effortlessly for +/- 100 years.

I agree with Sean that Cleeve Cloud would benefit from positive publicity and I'm sorry I am no longer in position to provide it. When I was writing up The Confidential Guide, I had Cleeve on my itinerary to see, but it poured rain that day and we had to skip it. Had I seen it then, it might be in the front of the book, and Painswick would be the one threatening to close today. :P [I did include it in the second printing, but did not reorganize everything to change the content in the Gourmet's Choice.]

Painswick, Cleeve and Minchinhampton Old are an entire class of golf courses that are not well represented in the literature of the game, and indeed anywhere but here on GCA. Links golf and heathland golf are celebrated and some of the little hidden gems are fetishized, but these commons courses [or whatever is the correct term] were passed over by Darwin and Sir Peter Allen and The Confidential Guide, and are pretty much unknown on this side of the Atlantic. Of course, a big part of the problem is that they are all in England and England does not spend money promoting golf the way Scotland and Ireland do.

It would be great if they had a collective identity and a little golf trail all their own, but after reading Adrian's post, I see how difficult that would be in the present era, and it saddens me.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Michael Whitaker on September 06, 2020, 12:47:04 PM: Not sure how things are managed in the UK, but is there not some kind of historical designation that could protect CC if it were approved? If yes, could we not collectively start and promote a campaign to have CC protected?
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Michael Whitaker on September 06, 2020, 12:53:35 PM: It is true that there is a challenge between golfers and the general public at CC. When Craig Disher and I played there we had to wait a LONG time on the first tee for walkers to clear the path leading to the car park. For a left-hander who doesn't always know the direction my tee shots will travel, it was a very scary beginning to my round. I could see me "beaning" someone in the back of the head as they headed down the path. I can see how a H&S conflict between the general public and golfers could be a major problem for the future of the course.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Jon Wiggett on September 06, 2020, 02:45:11 PM: Nearly all 'common land' is privately owned. It is called 'common land' due to the grazing rights that some farmers enjoy dating back to medieval times. The problem the club has is a lack of members and therefore income.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 07, 2020, 02:27:36 AM: Quote from: Adrian_Stiff on September 06, 2020, 06:02:40 AM
The 'trustees' of the land don't want golf there. That seems the biggest problem. Tewksbury Borough Council are not onside.

CC only has 180 members so no clout to claim it is well used, some winter days no one plays, it is like Siberia up there.

The rent for the course is very high.

The green fees are very cheap, membership is very cheap, the club to survive have been doing all sorts of rat-shit deals, where as a better route might be to promote it is as good and charge proper money but I suspect it would be a wasted route as fundamentally no one really wants to play golf there unless it is cheap, the GCA group/type are a tiny fraction of what people actually want.

Clubhouse is a valuable plot. Currently not in great shape.

I would imagine it is a one man job to maintain. I think they may not take as much as 200k in a year.

H & S issues over common land can be very difficult to navigate. I have had one situation where the course was forced to close because the footpath/golf course situation was too dangerous. Yes it got insurance but only with a £1000 excess and the excess was likely to double with each claim....we live in a world where it is easy to say "My son Tim was hit by a golf ball whilst flying his kite"....the solicitors will advise to settle. People know how they can extract a grand or two very easily, having a difficult excess situation is a reason not to invest a lot of money into a project, I think CC is more free roam or wants to be free to roam to the public a bit like Painswick.

I think CC is actually quite busy atm with the 'spike'.

Will find out more this week.

Why would the Trust not value the course rent income if it is high?

I have a suspicion Tewkesbury Borough Council own the house and car park, but not the course. But the course and house are probably packaged as a rent deal. The Council has invested what looks to be next to nothing in this asset. It may be the leasee is expected to spend a minimal amount on upkeep. I also suspect the Council wants to sell the house and lot. That pretty much throws the club on its ear and the steady income with it. Although, it seems feasible to go old school and meet at a nearby pub it hotel and let pro continue collecting green fees. Although, there needs to be place to store maintenance equipment. Not a likely outcome I know.

The situation really needs someone to buy the house and lot, probably knock the building down and build a small, functional cafe style house. Seems very risky without some control of the course and the scope for improvement. I can easily see this creeping over a million to buy the property, fix it up/knock down and rebuild and invest a bit in the course. Jeepers, the membership would need to be doubled to have any chance to make something like that pay off. Unless somehow the new work to the course upgraded the profile significantly...to the point where a 50 quid green fee could charged. Hard to see that happening.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on September 07, 2020, 05:31:09 AM: TBC certainly don't own the land. You might be right about the club house and plot they might own that which might be worth seven figures in that area, I am speculating that CC closing could work in their financial favour, hence not onside, but much may be hearsay and in dealing with councils I have found that they are rarely financially driven so I just don't know.

That aside losing the house might not be so bad a course can work on much lower numbers with just a hut or small one man type operation, the key to financial success/staying alive would be to run it on a shoestring with just a few staff and accept low throughput.

I do know the rent but I don't think I should be putting it on here, it is high IMO but there seems other reasons why they conservators want no more golf on the hill.

Looking at it financially as a going concern it looks like a loser.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 07, 2020, 05:53:57 AM: I think I know the rent for the house and course as well. It doesn't seem high to me, but with only 180 members paying sub £500 a year the numbers don't look great if there isn't substantial visitor income. If there were 300ish members the numbers look far better. It seems to me should all fall into place and someone decided to buy the freehold of the house to use for golf then at the very least the membership would have to double and the visitor would also likely have to be at least £35. That strikes me as a very risky proposition unless the course can be improved...even then its risky.

I still don't understand why the Conservators would want to lose the income from golf unless they found a sugar daddy. Most of these Trusts run an a shoestring budget which relies heavily on grants. Guaranteed income is gold. There is more to this story!

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on September 07, 2020, 06:44:45 AM: Anything more than a peppercorn rent almost certainly makes a club like this unviable. Plenty of clubs who own their course outright struggle to make ends meat!

I’ve heard a figure and it most certainly isn’t a peppercorn rent!

Sadly, Cleeve Hill looks a dead duck. ☹️
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 07, 2020, 06:56:21 AM: Quote from: Duncan Cheslett on September 07, 2020, 06:44:45 AM
Anything more than a peppercorn rent almost certainly makes a club like this unviable. Plenty of clubs who own their course outright struggle to make ends meat!

I’ve heard a figure and it most certainly isn’t a peppercorn rent!

Sadly, Cleeve Hill looks a dead duck. ☹️

Ya never know. It could be that if planning permission is required for the new owner than a provision for a small golf building could be included in the permission conditions...if the Trust is on board and the club members get active. Though, it doesn't look promising.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Niall C on September 07, 2020, 08:31:28 AM: Interesting comments on ownership, I hadn't appreciated that common land in England could be privately owned never mind that most of it actually was private. Having been there it is hard to see how the land could be used for anything other than recreation/grazing, notwithstanding comments on land values. If it is common land then how can you alienate peoples rights over it by selling it for housing or whatever ? I don't know enough about English property ownership law to comment but interested to hear from those in the know.

I tend to think that something will happen to bring back golf even if the club goes in abeyance for a few years. With sheep all over it and the land not being developed for anything else then it wouldn't be too hard to resurrect the course I wouldn't have thought.

Niall
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Niall C on September 07, 2020, 08:59:42 AM: Quote from: Tom_Doak on September 06, 2020, 12:08:59 PM
Painswick, Cleeve and Minchinhampton Old are an entire class of golf courses that are not well represented in the literature of the game, and indeed anywhere but here on GCA. Links golf and heathland golf are celebrated and some of the little hidden gems are fetishized, but these commons courses [or whatever is the correct term] were passed over by Darwin and Sir Peter Allen and The Confidential Guide, and are pretty much unknown on this side of the Atlantic. Of course, a big part of the problem is that they are all in England and England does not spend money promoting golf the way Scotland and Ireland do.

Tom

I could be misinterpreting what you mean by common courses but if your definition is wider than courses that are just on common land but are basic rural local courses run on a shoestring then I think you get plenty of them all round GB&I and probably account for a significant proportion, and they certainly don't get promoted whether they are in England, Scotland, Wales or Ireland.

What keeps them going isn't necessarily visitor revenue but the members themselves. When they lose interest then game over.

Niall
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 07, 2020, 10:13:56 AM: Quote from: Niall C on September 07, 2020, 08:31:28 AM
Interesting comments on ownership, I hadn't appreciated that common land in England could be privately owned never mind that most of it actually was private. Having been there it is hard to see how the land could be used for anything other than recreation/grazing, notwithstanding comments on land values. If it is common land then how can you alienate peoples rights over it by selling it for housing or whatever ? I don't know enough about English property ownership law to comment but interested to hear from those in the know.

I tend to think that something will happen to bring back golf even if the club goes in abeyance for a few years. With sheep all over it and the land not being developed for anything else then it wouldn't be too hard to resurrect the course I wouldn't have thought.

Niall

I wonder if non-land owners were allowed to register land as common land? I know in our village parishioners went to court to stop the land in front of their homes being registered as common land. It couldn't be determined who actually owned the land, but the parish council was recognized as the authority to protect the land. So the land is registered as Common Land, but it isn't actually so. It is only protected as such....I spose until can prove they are the owner of the land. Its a very odd area because its part road to a house, the frontage for a repair garage and the the front of a house. It looks the front garden for this house, but it ain't their land! Its all so complicated.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on September 07, 2020, 10:41:51 AM: There are numerous ways land can be common or the same as common land.

Lord of the manor situ where the lord owns the land and allows common grazing....often the key is grazing rights and sometimes in the UK when you buy a house someone from 1854 has the right to drive his sheep over your garden going to market once every 500 days.

Land can be left by someone in their will 'for the use of all the people to enjoy'...this will be left in trust, that trust will change and the new trustees may decide golf does not fit with Tim flying his kite.

You certainly won't be building houses on Cleeve Hill or Cleeve Common, and almost certainly the land can't be bought. As Niall states plenty of UK courses operate over land in this type of bracket, perhaps 1 in 10...maybe almost half of the UK golf courses the land is rented.

Footpaths are another area that can cause hassle and stress ( H & S ) and this can occur even if you own the land....such are our UK laws you have no rights to 'shoe' someone off your land if they are on a footpath.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 07, 2020, 11:32:40 AM: Quote from: Adrian_Stiff on September 07, 2020, 10:41:51 AM
There are numerous ways land can be common or the same as common land.

Lord of the manor situ where the lord owns the land and allows common grazing....often the key is grazing rights and sometimes in the UK when you buy a house someone from 1854 has the right to drive his sheep over your garden going to market once every 500 days.

Land can be left by someone in their will 'for the use of all the people to enjoy'...this will be left in trust, that trust will change and the new trustees may decide golf does not fit with Tim flying his kite.

You certainly won't be building houses on Cleeve Hill or Cleeve Common, and almost certainly the land can't be bought. As Niall states plenty of UK courses operate over land in this type of bracket, perhaps 1 in 10...maybe almost half of the UK golf courses the land is rented.

Footpaths are another area that can cause hassle and stress ( H & S ) and this can occur even if you own the land....such are our UK laws you have no rights to 'shoe' someone off your land if they are on a footpath.

Except properly registered common land enjoys incredible protection. Trust Constitutions are an entirely different matter.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Jay Mickle on September 07, 2020, 01:24:36 PM: Cleve Cloud was on my 2020 BUDA itinerary, I hope it will remain in service until my next trip across the pond. BUDA 2019 was a washout due to my immobile neck, this year COVID am so looking forward to my next opportunity.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 07, 2020, 01:45:20 PM: From Tewksbury Borough Council

Cleeve Hill Golf Club to close next spring
Home > News > Cleeve Hill Golf Club to close next spring

The current tenant of Cleeve Hill Golf Club has given notice of its intention not to continue its lease next spring.

The Share Club Ltd has served notice at the earliest opportunity within its 25-year lease to end the tenancy at the end of March 2021 - due to financial unviability.

Following the Share Club Ltd's decision, the borough council commissioned an independent expert opinion on the future of golf provision in this location. The report concluded that golf could not be financially sustainable at Cleeve Hill without significant investment and an ongoing subsidy from the council.

Given this conclusion, and the difficult financial position facing local government, the council’s Executive Committee reluctantly decided to end its licence to use Cleeve Hill Common for the laying out of a golf course from 31 March 2021. The land will return to the control of the Cleeve Common Trust, from 1 April 2021. This decision by the council has no effect on the current use of the remainder of the common, and that will remain open for the public’s continued enjoyment.

The council, which owns the clubhouse, has been exploring alternative options for the club's site. In the short-term, there are no current plans to redevelop it, although the very poor condition of the building means that there is no other affordable option other than for it to be demolished.

The borough council recognises that the local area is well-loved for walking and exploring, and the car park will remain open to members of the public

Longer term, any option would only be considered if it could meet four crucial themes. It must:

Facilitate and enhance the space for use by the community

Protect the local environment

Protect public access

Be commercially sustainable

Tewkesbury Borough Council's Lead Member for Finance and Asset Management Cllr Robert Vines said: “It is a shame that local authority golf will end here at Cleeve Golf Club, and sadly this will be a particularly difficult time for the club's employees.

“I would like to reassure those who use the common regularly, that Tewkesbury Borough Council is very much in support of public access to the area and we will continue to work with Cleeve Common Trust to ensure this remains the case.”

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: John Mayhugh on September 08, 2020, 07:40:58 AM: Well, that sounds pretty final unless someone could convince the council that they would make money. Shame, as it's such a unique (and good) course. And thanks to travel restrictions, no chance for me to see it again.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Niall C on September 08, 2020, 08:14:34 AM: John

Without looking to be flippant, Councils don't make money, they spend it. They spend it on "services". In less straightened times there would be an argument for the Council to take over the course and run it as a municipal for the well being and good health of the public, however it's hard to make that argument when hardcore social services are facing funding challenges.

The point I made in an earlier post is that there are an awful lot of similar clubs being run on a shoestring in the UK who have basically been bumbling along like that since they were formed. Their existence depends not on visitor numbers but the efforts of the members to keep things going. Events like this can either have a galvanising effect or can sink the club. Irrespective of the decision made to break the lease, the members might yet find a way through that actually might put them on a better footing. Here's hoping.

Irrespective of whether that happens, the ground is unlikely to be redeveloped so assuming grazing continues, then the opportunity should exist for the course to be readily resurrected in the future if support can be found.

Niall
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: John Mayhugh on September 08, 2020, 08:35:51 AM: Quote from: Niall C on September 08, 2020, 08:14:34 AM
Without looking to be flippant, Councils don't make money, they spend it. They spend it on "services". In less straightened times there would be an argument for the Council to take over the course and run it as a municipal for the well being and good health of the public, however it's hard to make that argument when hardcore social services are facing funding challenges.
Niall,

I understand the concept. From the release that Sean shared, they mentioned:
The report concluded that golf could not be financially sustainable at Cleeve Hill without significant investment and an ongoing subsidy from the council.
What I was hoping is that some other operator could convince the council that the new operator would make money. Council gets revenue (lease payment) and the operator generates enough revenue to keep a course operating. Not at all suggesting it become a municipally operated course.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on September 08, 2020, 09:40:09 AM: Quote from: John Mayhugh on September 08, 2020, 08:35:51 AM
Quote from: Niall C on September 08, 2020, 08:14:34 AM
Without looking to be flippant, Councils don't make money, they spend it. They spend it on "services". In less straightened times there would be an argument for the Council to take over the course and run it as a municipal for the well being and good health of the public, however it's hard to make that argument when hardcore social services are facing funding challenges.
Niall,

I understand the concept. From the release that Sean shared, they mentioned:
The report concluded that golf could not be financially sustainable at Cleeve Hill without significant investment and an ongoing subsidy from the council.
What I was hoping is that some other operator could convince the council that the new operator would make money. Council gets revenue (lease payment) and the operator generates enough revenue to keep a course operating. Not at all suggesting it become a municipally operated course.
The course is absolutely packed at the moment, but the lease has already been forfeited aft march 31 2021. The rent is in two parts, half paid to TBC for the clubhouse area (inc, car park, g/keepers store, pro shop, clubhouse) several people have indicated they would pay £1,000,000 for the plot. The other half is paid via TBC to the owners of the land. Best solution I could see would be to take TBC out of the equation and deal with the landowners, perhaps run everything from a burger van! They now have only 150 members and PMG only attracted 15 members. BTW there is another loved one close by that apparently has less than 100 members :O(
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: John Mayhugh on September 08, 2020, 01:08:52 PM: Adrian,

I think it's clear to all that the lease has been forfeited by the current leaseholder.

If the land on the golf course not developed for some other purpose and grazing animals (and non-revenue hikers) can coexist with a golf course on the site, then I wonder why it would not be worth the landowner looking for a new operator? With the clubhouse separated from the course, the new operator would need to add parking (the parking lot for hikers doesn't seem large enough) and a place to service customers. Maybe that's a burger van or maybe a trailer like at Mulranny. The first hole would have to give up some space to accommodate the loss of infrastructure across the street, but as a par 5, it could.

Obviously I don't know any of the finances involved but I really do hope someone tries to keep golf happening there.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on September 09, 2020, 04:18:31 AM: Quote from: John Mayhugh on September 08, 2020, 01:08:52 PM
Adrian,

I think it's clear to all that the lease has been forfeited by the current leaseholder.

If the land on the golf course not developed for some other purpose and grazing animals (and non-revenue hikers) can coexist with a golf course on the site, then I wonder why it would not be worth the landowner looking for a new operator? With the clubhouse separated from the course, the new operator would need to add parking (the parking lot for hikers doesn't seem large enough) and a place to service customers. Maybe that's a burger van or maybe a trailer like at Mulranny. The first hole would have to give up some space to accommodate the loss of infrastructure across the street, but as a par 5, it could.

Obviously I don't know any of the finances involved but I really do hope someone tries to keep golf happening there.
John it has been said enough times on here. The primary problem behind this is not enough people want to play Cleeve Hill to pay the costs. it is not held in such esteem by the man in the street as it is by this group (and others) poor location in terms of people as well. This course used to Cotswold Hills GC but because it was poor the members built another course several miles away, those members in 1976 dumped for what is now probably a Doak 3. You can't convince an operator it will work, if you double the price you lose members, you need to double the membership, triple even if its only 150. I think I would be interested if it was only 30 minutes away but it is probably 50 minutes and UK people don't travel that distance for their regular golf as a norm.
The best operator would still be the members themselves, the strength and passion of those people would be the best to create some lobbying and action plan. The land is pretty low grade for farming and as such grazing is the only likely use, yes that could easily co-exist (as it has) with golf.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: John Mayhugh on September 09, 2020, 07:58:26 AM: Adrian

I am not quite as dense as you may think.

It seems rather clear that the problem at Cleeve Hill was/is not enough revenue. The existing 78 year old operator wasn't able to solve that issue and opted to get out of his lease. No new operator (my use of this term could be anyone - including members) could successfully take over without more revenue. Certainly not going to make money with £15 green fees.

In 2018, Cleeve Hill managed just £349k in revenue and essentially broke even, while Lilley Brook on the south side of Cheltenham had £697k. Today, the Lilley Brook website only offers five day memberships, suggesting that full memberships are full. To me, it seems like there is demand in the area - it's just that people are choosing to play/join elsewhere. Is that because the golf course is poor as you describe it? Perhaps poorly marketed?

I am not suggesting that anyone would take this on to get wealthy. But maybe some different leadership could be enough to keep the course viable.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on September 09, 2020, 08:45:07 AM: Yes the reason for failure, is that the general perception of Cleeve Cloud is a 'poor'.

Sheep shit is not nice
No Water on the greens to stop my 3 wood
Steep climbs
It is cold up there
Its not in a very good location
Poor lies on the fairway
Badly conditioned approaches
Clubhouse manky.

Would be the reasons why the majority don't play (conditioning).

They entered 'death spiral' about 5/10 years ago and it is hard to get out of it. If you start doing rat shit deals you mess up the future. It is £15 to play and you need a lot of green fees to make things work at that level as you say. When you price at £15 it is difficult to get it to £30 (a realistic price IMO) and sadly anyone taking on CC gets left with that residual problem....push the price up a fiver and you will lose customers.

I personally think the damage has been done, operators might look at it, but I think your buying a headache. It is easy to fall in love with CC take it on a trash your money. Sometimes you need to understand that your opinion is a minor one not just think I think its great so every one else will.

I also think that to invest to make it better still won't work and the same reason, wrong location, not enough people. If you can play for £15 then £600 why join? Sean lives close, Sean likes CC why does he not join, I get the feeling he plays once a year.

For me, there is no question CC is the best golf course in the Cheltenham area. My opinion is very minor one. Lilleybrook, Cotswold Hills and Brickhampton all do okay in that area, but it is a bit like Minchinhampton Old Course if you suggested to a Minchinhampton member that the Old course was better than the New course you would get a stare that would suggest you were a total idiot.

I still hope somebody does take it on though.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Thomas Dai on September 09, 2020, 11:45:48 AM: Given that the golfing features will still be on the ground and that sheep will presumably still continue to graze and nibble the grass to give reasonable lies if diehards will for a while at least still go there and hit a few balls around (for free)?
Atb
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 09, 2020, 12:47:27 PM: I typically play Cleeve Cloud 5-10 times a year. This year I have played the course probably a dozen times already. I looked into joining, but the math didn't add up so I decided to pay and play.

I do think Adrian is right in that for the place to be viable someone needs to invests in the course and welcome walkers off the hill with a decent cafe. While the Council no longer wants anything to do with the course, I believe a deal can be struck with the Trust simply because the course rent represents 20% of the Trust's income. I also believe the Council will listen to proposals with the aim of providing a better amenity to the wider community. So, it may be that TBC will be willing to have a small golf operation building once the current building is demolished oe sell the land to an interested party that will operate the course.. All is not lost, but I do believe that somehow a significant percentage of income must come from non-golf streams.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on September 09, 2020, 12:59:24 PM: Sean,

Does the trust receive the rent money from TBC or does it go directly to the landowner?

My understanding was the latter and that for whatever reason the landowner no longer wants golf played on the Common.

In that scenario the Trust has no involvement.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 09, 2020, 05:19:56 PM: Quote from: Duncan Cheslett on September 09, 2020, 12:59:24 PM
Sean,

Does the trust receive the rent money from TBC or does it go directly to the landowner?

My understanding was the latter and that for whatever reason the landowner no longer wants golf played on the Common.

In that scenario the Trust has no involvement.

My understanding is 50% of the rent (rent for the course only) goes via TBC to the Common Trust. I have no idea what the land owner wants.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 25, 2020, 08:25:52 AM: A podcast about Cleeve Cloud from the Cookie Jar Golf Podcast boys. If there ever was a course worth the time of the golf community, Cleeve Cloud is it.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-cookie-jar-golf-podcast/id1493651992?i=1000492474612 (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-cookie-jar-golf-podcast/id1493651992?i=1000492474612)

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on September 25, 2020, 08:47:24 AM: I think it is saved now. Landlord will be out by March 31st but plenty of support to take it on.

It is two problems I think, golf will continue on the common, rent paid to land owners by members or new leasee. Clubhouse is a separate problem not so sure if it might be a different taker.

Bought a corporate membership yesterday and did the same for Painswick.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: John Mayhugh on September 25, 2020, 08:54:57 AM: Adrian,
This sounds great. You seemed rather pessimistic a few weeks ago, so hearing this from you makes me very optimistic.
Good on you to buy memberships at two places worthy of support!

I'll be including a detour to Cheltenham either pre or post Buda 2021.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Michael Whitaker on September 25, 2020, 09:22:47 AM: Here is a nice YouTube video on Cleeve Hill from the Cookie Jar podcast guys:

https://youtu.be/PRpdtkGhiyk (https://youtu.be/PRpdtkGhiyk)
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on September 25, 2020, 09:31:01 AM: Quote from: John Mayhugh on September 25, 2020, 08:54:57 AM
Adrian,
This sounds great. You seemed rather pessimistic a few weeks ago, so hearing this from you makes me very optimistic.
Good on you to buy memberships at two places worthy of support!

I'll be including a detour to Cheltenham either pre or post Buda 2021.
Yes it looked very bleak but I think the campaigning from both golfers that play there and the walkers there have pursuaded the bosses it needs saving. Lots have promised to support, just hope they do or it could fall back into a situation where it is cash poor.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on September 25, 2020, 09:46:49 AM: Great news.

Played there Monday, it was busy and without asking they gave me a Seniors Rate of £15 for the round. Only 4 days ago, none of the staff knew what would happen but they were hopeful.

Hopefully this will result in the getting back to maintenance standards of old, which I felt had dropped.

A very special place to play golf.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Thomas Dai on September 25, 2020, 01:20:14 PM: Very pleased to hear Adrians comments above.
Well done to all those who have championed its continuation and every success to those who take on its running.

atb
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on September 29, 2020, 02:40:55 AM: Positive news.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/849295962272976?view=permalink&id=864871397382099

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on October 28, 2020, 06:58:01 AM: More good news!

https://t.co/0r3FVAtLRk

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: There is Still Some Hope
Post by: John Mayhugh on October 28, 2020, 09:19:54 AM: Really good to hear.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: jeffwarne on October 28, 2020, 09:56:10 AM: Quote from: Michael Whitaker on September 25, 2020, 09:22:47 AM
Here is a nice YouTube video on Cleeve Hill from the Cookie Jar podcast guys:

https://youtu.be/PRpdtkGhiyk (https://youtu.be/PRpdtkGhiyk)

Wow-equally impressive on a second watch.
Reminded me of a stretch of cross country like holes at Gweedore.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: Sean_A on October 28, 2020, 10:08:54 AM: Quote from: jeffwarne on October 28, 2020, 09:56:10 AM
Quote from: Michael Whitaker on September 25, 2020, 09:22:47 AM
Here is a nice YouTube video on Cleeve Hill from the Cookie Jar podcast guys:

https://youtu.be/PRpdtkGhiyk (https://youtu.be/PRpdtkGhiyk)

Wow-equally impressive on a second watch.
Reminded me of a stretch of cross country like holes at Gweedore.

Jeff

You will be hard pressed to find a better rustic course than Cleeve Cloud.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD To Be No More?
Post by: jeffwarne on October 28, 2020, 12:24:54 PM: Quote from: Sean_A on October 28, 2020, 10:08:54 AM
Quote from: jeffwarne on October 28, 2020, 09:56:10 AM
Quote from: Michael Whitaker on September 25, 2020, 09:22:47 AM
Here is a nice YouTube video on Cleeve Hill from the Cookie Jar podcast guys:

https://youtu.be/PRpdtkGhiyk (https://youtu.be/PRpdtkGhiyk)

Wow-equally impressive on a second watch.
Reminded me of a stretch of cross country like holes at Gweedore.

Jeff

You will be hard pressed to find a better rustic course than Cleeve Cloud.

Ciao

There went another 10 minutes on a third watch-sadly all we will get this year..
My first non-UK/Ireland year since the early 90's..
(I was fortunate enough to get 18 days in Australia just before the lockdown-so still counting my blessings)
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: There is Still Some Hope
Post by: Thomas Dai on October 28, 2020, 01:23:28 PM: Sounds like good news. Fingers crossed although breath not being held as local councils and politicians are involved!
For folks information, the course only has two greenkeeping staff and the sheep are only on the course for 7 months p/a.
Amazing terrain, delightfully interesting and challenging golf.
atb
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Elbe7EzXIAobbSl?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Elbe7EqX0AYNXmy?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Elbe7EqW0AIYMNd?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Elbe7EoXEAEhw6Q?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: Hope Remains
Post by: Sean_A on November 08, 2020, 02:50:04 AM: I see someone destroyed the 10th green with a quad or motor bike. Luckily, with the shutdown the club has time to sort it out.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: Hope Remains
Post by: Jay Mickle on November 08, 2020, 07:33:23 AM: Had planned to play after this years BUDA. Looking forward to end of COVID so I can get back and recreate my trip.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: Hope Remains
Post by: Tom Mills on January 28, 2021, 02:49:55 PM: Just hearing that there will be an announcement tomorrow on the new owners of Cleeve Hill Golf Cub. Let's hope with this new announcement that golf on the hill will now be safe for future generations!
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: Hope Remains
Post by: Adrian_Stiff on January 28, 2021, 04:51:14 PM: It will be great to see the new ideas for Cleeve Hill. I thought about bidding but it seemed a big part of the new deal was the investment into the clubhouse which was the put-off for me. The golf course would be far more viable without that heavy burden. I hope the new owners can think of a better plan than I could, I think one bidder has some very grand plans. Will be an interesting project to follow.

It is at least saved.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: Hope Remains
Post by: Thomas Dai on January 29, 2021, 02:52:31 AM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ViZqQkddCc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ViZqQkddCc) .....................
:)
atb

For new leasee article see - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69333.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69333.0.html)

Later edit - for more details of new the leasee (Cotswold Hub) part parent company see - https://www.mashiegolf.co.uk (https://www.mashiegolf.co.uk/)
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: Hope Remains
Post by: Sean_A on January 29, 2021, 11:22:50 AM: A disaster was just averted. Well done to Cotswold Hub for stepping up!

Lets hope the first thing they do is change the name to Cleeve Cloud!

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: John Mayhugh on January 29, 2021, 01:35:52 PM: I look forward to learning more about the future plans. But very good news indeed.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Thomas Dai on January 29, 2021, 04:53:15 PM: Nice to hear that play on Cleeve Hill will continue (C-19 permitting). Well done to all those who championed its continuation.
Has any further progress been made on who-did-what at Cleeve?
Reading through the earlier posts within this thread there’s debate about OTM’s involvement and mention of David Browns brother (not DB himself) being involved. Plus later on Cole & Huggett and Hawtree.
Atb
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: Hope Remains
Post by: Mike Sweeney on January 30, 2021, 05:13:04 PM: Quote from: Sean_A on January 29, 2021, 11:22:50 AM
A disaster was just averted. Well done to Cotswold Hub for stepping up!

Lets hope the first thing they do is change the name to Cleeve Cloud!

Ciao

Sean,

Cleeve Cloud was always one of my favorite of your reviews. I have no idea how much your effort helped, but it certainly did help in saving the course. Congrats and thanks for all your efforts.

On a cold weekend, I have been looking at a few - https://golfclubatlas.com/best-of-golf/sean-arbles-united-kingdom-course-tours-2/
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: Hope Remains
Post by: Sean_A on January 31, 2021, 07:55:28 AM: Quote from: Mike Sweeney on January 30, 2021, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Sean_A on January 29, 2021, 11:22:50 AM
A disaster was just averted. Well done to Cotswold Hub for stepping up!

Lets hope the first thing they do is change the name to Cleeve Cloud!

Ciao

Sean,

Cleeve Cloud was always one of my favorite of your reviews. I have no idea how much your effort helped, but it certainly did help in saving the course. Congrats and thanks for all your efforts.

On a cold weekend, I have been looking at a few - https://golfclubatlas.com/best-of-golf/sean-arbles-united-kingdom-course-tours-2/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/best-of-golf/sean-arbles-united-kingdom-course-tours-2/)

Sweeney

Thanks for the kind comments. Although, I seriously doubt I had any influence on Cotswold Hub for taking the plunge. Its a great opportunity for them at a very low financial risk relative to almost any other golf course.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Sean_A on March 21, 2021, 06:03:17 AM: Cleeve Cloud is definitely opening this year as I am playing 31 March. As I haven't swung a club in months this will be a test of my theory that CC is an excellent place to learn how to play the game 😎.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD
Post by: Robin_Hiseman on March 22, 2021, 11:07:27 AM: Sean

I hope to see you up there soon. My favourite place to kick off the golfing year and as you say, forgiving if you've not swung a club for 6 whole months!
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 20-21 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on April 12, 2021, 06:49:32 AM: Quote from: Robin_Hiseman on March 22, 2021, 11:07:27 AM
Sean

I hope to see you up there soon. My favourite place to kick off the golfing year and as you say, forgiving if you've not swung a club for 6 whole months!

It came to pass. Doc and I played Cleeve Cloud yesterday in what was certainly wintery weather. See the updated tour.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html)

Previous Stops on the Covid 2020-21 Winter Tour

Alnmouth Village
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65709.msg1568291.html#msg1568291 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65709.msg1568291.html#msg1568291)

Beaverbrook - no photo tour

North Berwick
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59363.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59363.0.html)

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2020-21 Winter Tour
Post by: John Mayhugh on April 12, 2021, 07:37:35 AM: The updated pictures included some snow?
Hope I can make it back there in the next couple of years.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2020-21 Winter Tour
Post by: Adam Lawrence on April 12, 2021, 07:52:30 AM: Brrr...

I am a fair weather golfer, and it makes me cold just thinking about playing on the hill yesterday.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2020-21 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on April 12, 2021, 08:01:50 AM: Quote from: Adam Lawrence on April 12, 2021, 07:52:30 AM
Brrr...

I am a fair weather golfer, and it makes me cold just thinking about playing on the hill yesterday.

We had to take shelter behind the shed by the 8th when a snow squall came through. Other than that it was good :D I don't mind snow so much, but I hate rain.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2020-21 Winter Tour
Post by: Robin_Hiseman on April 12, 2021, 09:56:22 AM: Quote from: Adam Lawrence on April 12, 2021, 07:52:30 AM
Brrr...

I am a fair weather golfer, and it makes me cold just thinking about playing on the hill yesterday.

Adam

It was delightful up there. We could see the snowstorm approaching for about 30 minutes and it was so bizarre as to be fun. Before and after the squall it was a very pleasant sunny day with a light breeze. Sean got a bit chilled near the end, but I had my thermals on, so was toasty.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2020-21 Winter Tour
Post by: Adam Lawrence on April 12, 2021, 10:57:56 AM: Quote from: Robin_Hiseman on April 12, 2021, 09:56:22 AM
Quote from: Adam Lawrence on April 12, 2021, 07:52:30 AM
Brrr...

I am a fair weather golfer, and it makes me cold just thinking about playing on the hill yesterday.

Adam

It was delightful up there. We could see the snowstorm approaching for about 30 minutes and it was so bizarre as to be fun. Before and after the squall it was a very pleasant sunny day with a light breeze. Sean got a bit chilled near the end, but I had my thermals on, so was toasty.

I'm glad you had fun, but it's not my idea of a good time.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2020-21 Winter Tour
Post by: Thomas Dai on April 12, 2021, 12:08:35 PM: Very fine updated photos.
Good planning that Sean and Robin played yesterday. I suspect CC was all white this morning and probably like other similar altitude locations in the locality not just a wee white dusting either.
atb
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2020-21 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on April 13, 2021, 03:13:21 AM: Quote from: Thomas Dai on April 12, 2021, 12:08:35 PM
Very fine updated photos.
Good planning that Sean and Robin played yesterday. I suspect CC was all white this morning and probably like other similar altitude locations in the locality not just a wee white dusting either.
atb

We could clearly see the Malverns dusted with snow while playing.

The new tenants were banging away on the house work. Judging by the swarms of people, if the new tenants provide a hospitable place to eat and drink with decent quality than they should be able to turn a profit.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2020-21 Winter Tour
Post by: Robin_Hiseman on April 13, 2021, 05:53:25 AM: Sean and I are both veterans of Cleeve Hill, but there are people heading up there to play it for the first time. The two guys playing ahead of us were a case in point. At several points on the back nine I could hear their voices carrying on the wind.

"Would you just look at this hole! This place is unbelievable!"

"I absolutely love this course"

"What a course! This place is heaven!"

It was lovely to witness two golfers experiencing Cleeve for the first time and understanding what many of us (but too few us) realised already, that Cleeve is an outstanding golf course by any measure. I hope many more head up The Hill to share the love.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE CLOUD: 2020-21 Winter Tour
Post by: Thomas Dai on September 27, 2021, 05:26:15 PM: Worth a watch and a listen - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=euauS8ZyFxY (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=euauS8ZyFxY)
Atb
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2020-21 Winter Tour
Post by: Thomas Dai on April 26, 2022, 03:26:41 PM: Cleeve Hill GC just gets better and better.
The evil but wonderful 13th green, the green that sits inside the ancient Iron Age hill-fort ramparts and overlooks from on high the Severn Valley, Cheltenham, The Malverns etc. Gorgeous.
atb
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FRSUEkQXMAAc2Hd?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2020-21 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on February 23, 2023, 11:26:10 AM: The 2022-23 Winter Tour has been in the main relegated to playing a few courses, but many times. Cleeve Hill has been the main target of the Tour. The new management have improved the greens immeasurably in the past few years and the course is in excellent nick this winter. Please see updated tour.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.msg1128469.html#msg1128469 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.msg1128469.html#msg1128469)

Other stops on the 2022-23 Winter Tour

Minch Old
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48765.msg1100536.html#msg1100536 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48765.msg1100536.html#msg1100536)

Welcombe Hotel - no photo tour

Painswick
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51629.msg1181534.html#msg1181534

Future Tour Stops

North Berwick
Formby
West Lancs
Hillside
Sandiway
Southport & Ainsdale
Kings Norton

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2022-23 Winter Tour
Post by: mike_malone on February 23, 2023, 07:48:33 PM: Sean,

Love to see your comparisons of Formby, West Lancs, Hillside, and Southport and Ainsdale.

I played them all last September and enjoyed each but would be hard pressed from one play to rate them. I did enjoy West Lancs the best but I can only say because it seemed simpler.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2022-23 Winter Tour
Post by: Mark Pearce on February 24, 2023, 03:47:57 AM: Quote from: mike_malone on February 23, 2023, 07:48:33 PM
Sean,

Love to see your comparisons of Formby, West Lancs, Hillside, and Southport and Ainsdale.

I played them all last September and enjoyed each but would be hard pressed from one play to rate them. I did enjoy West Lancs the best but I can only say because it seemed simpler.
I have only played two of those (Formby and West Lancs). And like you, only once, so I wouldn't want to rate them. But West Lancs was a surprise to me. It doesn't get a great deal of attention here but I really, really enjoyed it.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2022-23 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on April 04, 2023, 02:47:16 AM: Quote from: mike_malone on February 23, 2023, 07:48:33 PM
Sean,

Love to see your comparisons of Formby, West Lancs, Hillside, and Southport and Ainsdale.

I played them all last September and enjoyed each but would be hard pressed from one play to rate them. I did enjoy West Lancs the best but I can only say because it seemed simpler.

Formby has always been my clear favourite of this lot. Although, the small footprint, intimate S&A holds strong appeal. It was heavily over treed when I visited. I am happy to say that problem is largely resolved. Somewhat similar to Formby, S&A has a highly entertaining variety of holes with some standout old school features. I am impressed. But hey, they are all good courses.

I took the train from Liverpool to Southport. It was lovely to see all the courses spread along the tracks.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2022-23 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on February 23, 2024, 03:38:45 AM: The 2023-24 Winter Tour stopped at Cleeve. I had a discussion with a chap working at Cleeve about the bunkering. There is talk about removing all bunkers. Quite a radical move, I think as a way to cut the maintenance budget.

Previous stops on the 2023-24 Winter Tour

Huntercombe

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.msg1651016.html#msg1651016 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.msg1651016.html#msg1651016)

Planned Stops

Minehead
Westward Ho!
Notts
Goswick
North Berwick
Renaissance
Kilspindie

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2022-23 Winter Tour
Post by: Niall C on February 23, 2024, 05:05:30 AM: Quote from: Sean_A on February 23, 2024, 03:38:45 AM

Planned Stops

Minehead
Westward Ho!
Notts
Goswick
North Berwick
Renaissance
Kilspindie

Ciao

Have you scrapped the islands tour ?

Niall
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2022-23 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on February 23, 2024, 06:51:21 AM: Quote from: Niall C on February 23, 2024, 05:05:30 AM
Quote from: Sean_A on February 23, 2024, 03:38:45 AM

Planned Stops

Minehead
Westward Ho!
Notts
Goswick
North Berwick
Renaissance
Kilspindie

Ciao

Have you scrapped the islands tour ?

Niall

No, just hoping for summer weather 😎.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2022-23 Winter Tour
Post by: Thomas Dai on February 23, 2024, 08:17:44 AM: Quote from: Sean_A on February 23, 2024, 03:38:45 AM
The 2023-24 Winter Tour stopped at Cleeve. I had a discussion with a chap working at Cleeve about the bunkering. There is talk about removing all bunkers. Quite a radical move, I think as a way to cut the maintenance budget.
I’ve had the same chat likely with the same person and am far from convinced that sand bunkers, and there aren’t really that many, are irrespective of maintenance budgets even needed there.
Atb
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2022-23 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on February 26, 2024, 04:03:15 AM: Quote from: Thomas Dai on February 23, 2024, 08:17:44 AM
Quote from: Sean_A on February 23, 2024, 03:38:45 AM
The 2023-24 Winter Tour stopped at Cleeve. I had a discussion with a chap working at Cleeve about the bunkering. There is talk about removing all bunkers. Quite a radical move, I think as a way to cut the maintenance budget.
I’ve had the same chat likely with the same person and am far from convinced that sand bunkers, and there aren’t really that many, are irrespective of maintenance budgets even needed there.
Atb

I don’t think bunkers are needed, but several well placed bunkers would make for a better, more interesting course. For instance, losing the bunker on 1 makes that a much easier approach. Same for the left bunker on 2 . Same for the right bunkers on 4 and 9. Same for the front bunker on 17. Some fairway bunkers would help with the aesthetics. It’s not a bad thing for gravity golf to have some pathways cutoff.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2023-24 Winter Tour
Post by: Thomas Dai on February 26, 2024, 07:11:02 PM: With sheep roaming Cleeve and dogs being walked there are always loads of four-footed prints in the bunkers. Sometimes something foul and smelly produced by both too.
Atb
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2023-24 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on February 27, 2024, 02:56:33 AM: Quote from: Thomas Dai on February 26, 2024, 07:11:02 PM
With sheep roaming Cleeve and dogs being walked there are always loads of four-footed prints in the bunkers. Sometimes something foul and smelly produced by both too.
Atb

So move the ball just as one does for the rest of the course.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2023-24 Winter Tour
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on February 28, 2024, 05:59:28 AM: Mmmmm bit worrying. At our BUDA visit it seemed like with the refereshed clubhouse and increased standard of maintenance thnkgs had made a turn for the better.

If they are still looking to save money it just shows how few golfers 'get' anything other than what the see on TV, as desirable golf courses.
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2023-24 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on February 29, 2024, 03:57:00 AM: Quote from: Tony_Muldoon on February 28, 2024, 05:59:28 AM
Mmmmm bit worrying. At our BUDA visit it seemed like with the refereshed clubhouse and increased standard of maintenance thnkgs had made a turn for the better.

If they are still looking to save money it just shows how few golfers 'get' anything other than what the see on TV, as desirable golf courses.

My biggest concern is that should the tenants change their mind, the Trust may not allow bunkers on the land once the current bunkers are removed.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2023-24 Winter Tour
Post by: Niall C on February 29, 2024, 06:34:09 AM: Would grass bunkers not be better both from a maintenance and visual/aesthetic aspect anyway ?

Niall
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2023-24 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on February 29, 2024, 07:38:16 AM: Quote from: Niall C on February 29, 2024, 06:34:09 AM
Would grass bunkers not be better both from a maintenance and visual/aesthetic aspect anyway ?

Niall

If it’s not financially feasible to keep some bunkers you could be right. That said, the current bunkers are dicey; poorly maintained, which makes them the hazard many here want to see returned to golf.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2023-24 Winter Tour
Post by: Simon Barrington on March 01, 2024, 05:34:42 AM: If you love Cleeve Hill, and like a quirky challenge this event "The Old Tom One" looks a fun event (apologies if already shared elsewhere on here):https://www.golfgenius.com/register?league_id=10178213073261695888 (https://www.golfgenius.com/register?league_id=10178213073261695888)
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2023-24 Winter Tour
Post by: Sean_A on March 02, 2024, 03:16:53 AM: Quote from: Simon Barrington on March 01, 2024, 05:34:42 AM
If you love Cleeve Hill, and like a quirky challenge this event "The Old Tom One" looks a fun event (apologies if already shared elsewhere on here):https://www.golfgenius.com/register?league_id=10178213073261695888 (https://www.golfgenius.com/register?league_id=10178213073261695888)

Cleeve Hill is changing. I looked into this event several weeks ago. I was sticker price shocked.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Quarries of CLEEVE HILL: 2023-24 Winter Tour
Post by: Simon Barrington on March 02, 2024, 04:33:39 AM: Quote from: Sean_A on March 02, 2024, 03:16:53 AM
Quote from: Simon Barrington on March 01, 2024, 05:34:42 AM
If you love Cleeve Hill, and like a quirky challenge this event "The Old Tom One" looks a fun event (apologies if already shared elsewhere on here):https://www.golfgenius.com/register?league_id=10178213073261695888 (https://www.golfgenius.com/register?league_id=10178213073261695888)

Cleeve Hill is changing. I looked into this event several weeks ago. I was sticker price shocked.

Ciao
Perhaps a little at the edges.
I guess this is the double-edged sword of a "best kept secret" not being so anymore, but that had to happen to save the course's future.
The winter morning (pre-April) Green Fee is £35 (presumably more in May?), plus a bacon roll, BBQ afterwards, plus prizes & a fairly unique event makes the £60 non-member fee not unreasonable.
Organised events are not for everyone, happily its still possible to play Cleeve for £20 post 1pm until April, so perhaps that's the way to enjoy this special place.