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Sean_A

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A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC New
« on: June 22, 2011, 04:07:28 PM »
Silloth on Solway GC is located in the centre of a rather grim town not long on charm.  Hard on the port, one enters the house and upon making his way to the lounge is immediately confronted with a rather determined image of Cecil Leitch in the spot one would imagine was reserved for the queen in years past.  The club can be rightly proud of its asscociation with the hard hitting Ms Leitch as she dominated ladies golf for a few years after WWI.  Among her triumphs were four British, five French, two English and one Canadian championships. These numbers could likely be higher if not for WWI.  Looking left of Cecil we see the putting green and first tee and an impressive sight it is, but not nearly so as is playing the course. 

The first order of business to discuss is the rough.  Anybody with experience of the M6 will know that Cumbria is nearly always shrouded in cloud and rain.  So yes, the rough will be long and harsh.  The heather will be robust and the stuff of dreams for London clubs. Balanced against this premium on accuracy off the tee is a plethora of great shots. From the down n' up fairway of #3, to the squared off and fallaway green of the 4th, to the in search of fairway on the fifth, to the drivable 10th and the extreme plateau green of the 13th; Silloth has it all there for the taking. 

The first eases one into the game and rightly so.  The wind of the day I think was fairly prevailing, quartering against from the left.


The obscured approach is to a rather small green; one of many at Silloth.


Another modest length two shotter, the second cuts to the right.  Perhaps this is the one weakness of the par 4s in general, many were driver wedge to eight iron.  That said, the green sites are often quite different and with punishing rough one doesn't need too many long testing wood shots.


The approach.


Climbing to a high tee we are now confronted with a blind shot lurching downhill and obviously left, but where left one can't tell.  Cresting the hill one is confronted with the view below.  The direct line to the green is cut-off by a bank of heather.  One can either layup and leave a longer approach more on equal height with the green or go low and be left with a nasty little wedge.  This is a terrific hole which at a moment says hello to the golfer. I believe Dr Mac moved the green to its current spot in 1914.




Looking back up the fairway.


The 4th tee is above the third green and like the previous hole, features a blind drive to a rather narrow target.  Below is the approach.


A look at the green from the 5th tee.


The three shot fifth is most interesting for its in search of the fairway drive.  With the wind pushing off the left it is difficult to know the exact line.


The approach plays longer than it looks as the green is slightly uphill with bunkers protecting the landing area.  For most, the two right bunkers must be taken on to reach the green in two.


The first short hole at Silloth is for me the best.  The ridge connecting between the two bunkers is very reminiscent of Raynor's design method at Yeamans Hall, even if the styling is different.


The 7th is a climber which takes a bit of local knowledge to figure out even though the hole is uphill and without a favourable wind it plays short. The green is located about 40 yards on the far side of a hill crest so the approach is really played to the top with the expectation that gravity will do the rest.



   
Play is from the right of the picture heading downhill toward the green.


Often times it can be the case that whilea hole isn't poor per se, it doesn't add much to the course; the 8th is a case in point.  It is about this time that one twigs there have been perhaps one or two too many holes of this general driver/wedge or 9 iron or 8 iron length on the front nine.  Like all of these holes (#s 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 and 8) , there is something to separate the identity of each hole and the 8th has a centreline bunker.  I fear this may not be enough to make up for the lack of playing length diversity. 

The finishing hole going out is a teaser par 3 with several bunkers guarding the front and wings. 


The back nine is away from the sea and in the main plays back to the house.  The run of 10 through 13 is a superb mix of thinking man's golf combined with the possibility of expertly contolled brute force winning the day.  The 10th is the sort of hole that most will want to bang a driver over a heathery knoll to the left and see what gives.  It is thought that Dr Mac chose this greesite. The hole is about 250 on this line, but OOB is hard right and there are corner bunkers to be dealt with.  There is a very short layup option short of two crossing bunkers which I believe are fairly new, but this leaves an obscured approach with the OOB ever present.


The obligatory, but in this case well out of the way caravan park, creates OOB down the right on the 11th.  The hole turns hard right in a similar fashion to Wallasey's 8th and for the first time in the round requires something more than an 8 iron approach.




The long par 3 12th is a fairly straight away hole, but a tough par nonetheless.  The singular 13th is an incredible par 5 the likes of which I have never seen before.  Hitting back into the wind, the hole is still reachable in two for fairly long hitters, but the margin of error is seemingly less than zero.  I can imagine the playing of every shot on this hole being completely dependent on the wind direction. 


I knew this green site had no bail out area because its on view from both angles playing previous holes.  I therefore decided the only prudent play was a 5 iron with the hope of getting out of Dodge with a five.  The break in the fairway helps to create the idea of a do or die style second for anyone who doesn't hit a decent drive.  The second-hand astro turf covering the paths is a blight on the course which probably saves on maintenance.  Perhaps the club should consider going back to traditional paths on holes where they are prominently on view.   


Even for the the short chip I dared not go at the hole!


I can give a pass to the front nine having so many holes play the same yardage because of the variety of greensites, but for me the finishing stretch at Silloth is the Achilles Heel.  None of the holes are remotely poor, but none have the pizzaz of the many holes dotted throughout the first 13.  The 14th is an up n' over par 5 with a blind green.  Just over the crest of the hill is a break in the fairway loaded with heather.  The green sits in a low spot. #15 is a good length two-shotter that is hard to make out from the tee.  The slightly obscured tee shot is an element of design I enjoy. The approach is also interesting as the bunker shoulder effects the bounce.  The short 16th is perhaps the only hole I didn't think was up to scratch.  The hole is too similar to the 12th, but a more severe version even though it is 20 yards shorter.

#17 offers a fine sight from the tee with a heaving fairway and its a bit of respite on the card.  The green is very reachable in two and has a feeding downslope to the green.  With a forward hole location this hole is a bit more demanding. 


The Home hole isn't a bad finish.  The fairway bunkers on the right are well placed and the approach distance is difficult to gauge as the green site is slightly below the fairway.   


Despite the gloomy weather I was most impressed by Sillloth.  There are enough very good holes with not an egg among them.  Its easy to see why the course is highly rated and loved by so many visitors.  At £45 this is most definitely my sort of golf and would happily return.  2011

Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/silloth1/

Seascale
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60048.msg1419562.html#msg1419562

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 03:45:06 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Silloth on Solway & Seascale: A Cumbrian Couplet
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 04:36:33 PM »
I take it Silloth is a two ball course? Some of those greens do not look big enough for more than a pair of over dined golfers!
Cave Nil Vino

Scott Warren

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Sean,

Quote
This is about the time that one twigs there have been perhaps one or two too many holes of this general driver/wedge or 9 iron or 8 iron length on the front nine.  Like all of these holes (#s 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 and , there is something to separate each hole and the 8th has a centreline bunker, this may not be enough make up for the lack of playing length diversity.

1st 380 yards - dell green falling away left and long, flagstick visible
2nd 315 yards (downhill drive - 285 yards as the crow flies) - grade level green
3rd 352 yards (downhill drive, uphill approach) - hilltop/benched green
4th 372 (downhill drive) - grade level green dropping off at both sides
7th 398 (uphill drive) - dell/punchbowl green that gathers, flagstick completely blind
8th 371 - green at grade level blocked from the right by a dune short.

Funnily enough, my reaction to this stretch was quite different to yours. In my review last year, I wrote of the 8th hole:

It surprises me now looking at the scorecard that so many of the par fours are so similar in length, because they felt anything but while I was playing them.

There isn't an approach shot in there similar to any other, with the exception of the 1st and 7th, which are still quite different owing to the much shallower dell in which the 1st green is set and the fact that green is slightly domed long and right while the 7th gathers.

PS - Pretty please with a cherry on top, could you size your pics at 800 wide?

Mark Pearce

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Re: Silloth on Solway & Seascale: A Cumbrian Couplet - 13 complete
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2011, 02:21:13 AM »
The wind was off the left on the 5th?  I don't think I've ever played there with that wind, which might explain why Sean's driver/ 8 iron experience doesn't sound familiar.  In fact, I wish I could play the course when half of those holes were driver, 8 iron!
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

John Mayhugh

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Re: Silloth on Solway & Seascale: A Cumbrian Couplet
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 08:11:56 AM »
I take it Silloth is a two ball course? Some of those greens do not look big enough for more than a pair of over dined golfers!

Some do look pretty small.

The green sites look great. Can't wait to get up there to see it.

Thanks for the tour, Sean.

Scott Warren

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 08:26:29 AM »
1*?

One star?

One fucking star?

Explain yourself.

I just got home from a sizeable dinner, the above is obviously meant in jest (to a certain extent ;))

Sean_A

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 08:37:32 AM »
1*?

One star?

One fucking star?

Explain yourself.

I just got home from a sizeable dinner, the above is obviously meant in jest (to a certain extent ;))

Scott

My young and petulant Aussie, Pennard is MY measuring stick for off colour courses and Silloth isn't as good as Pennard.  As, Pennard, a course near and dear to my heart, earns only 1 star, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that Silloth deserves two (or were you suggesting three?).  I like the course a lot and 1* is a very high rating for me. 

Tucky

Cheers.

Mark

Yes, I hit a huge drive and an all time 8 iron on 5.  Piece of piss that hole.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Scott Warren

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 08:45:56 AM »
So I take it you disagree with Pearce and me (and did Andrew agree with us?) That it's better than Deal and Rye?

Sean_A

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 09:22:54 AM »
So I take it you disagree with Pearce and me (and did Andrew agree with us?) That it's better than Deal and Rye?

Silloth better than Rye or Deal?  No how, no way.  To be sure, if I am paying the freight I would play Silloth over Deal anyday.  So far as Rye is concerned, I would say Silloth and it are about equal.  I can't fathom how you think Silloth has it over Rye or Deal strictly in terms of quality. That is a concept I would like explained to me.  Filtering out mmy freakish preferences and relying on Doak (with 7 being an all world top 100), I would say

Rye 7

Deal 7

Silloth 6

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 09:26:09 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Mark Pearce

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 09:46:27 AM »
Sean,

I don't recall you being much longer than me but I don't think I've ever hit as little as an 8I into any of 1, 3 or 7 each of which play into the prevailing wind and 7 is steeply uphill.  2 is a short par 4 (I suspect the flatbellies might think it driveable, though that would be a brave shout to take a drive over the dune at the green).  4 is a drive/wedge hole but there's nothing wrong with that. 

I'm surprised that you didn't feel more enthusiastic about 9 which for me is a great short par 3.

I sort of agree with you about 14, 15 and 16, though most courses have a breather of sorts and all of these are better than each of 10, 11 and 17 at Rye.  !6 would (if this makes any sense) be a better hole if 12 wasn't there.  I think 17 is a very good hole and I like 18 as a finisher.

As someone who thinks Rye is generally over-rated I have to say I do completely agree with Scott, for me, Silloth is clearly better than Rye (how can a course be world top 100 with holes like 10, 11 and 17 at Rye?  Particularly when there are other weak holes there (1, 7, 14 come to mind).  The Deal comparison is closer and I was surprised when I played Silloth with Scott how readily he concluded that Silloth was the superior course.  Nonetheless, I can see the argument and, on balance, go along with it.  No doubt Deal is a very fine course but so, IMHO, is Silloth.

I get the impression, by the way, from your Seascale post, that some of your group struggled with Silloth.  Did you think it was unduly difficult?
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

Sean_A

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2011, 11:25:26 AM »
Mark, I am not really longer than you at all and I am surprised you don't have short irons intot the three holes mentioned. 

1 was a Driver 8 iron

3 was a driver easy wedge

7 was a driver 9 iron

2 is drivable, but not for me unless the wind was reversed and strong.

9 is a good little par 3 because of the wind, but I wouldn't say its great.   

I don't have any problem at all with 11 and 17 at Rye.  They are both good holes, especially #17.  14 and 15 at Silloth aren't bad holes and I don't have a problem with them except in that they come in sequence with 17 and 18.  Silloth doesn't have the standout holes of length that Rye has.  Combine this with the superior 3s at Rye and the better greens and for me this seals the deal that Rye is comfortably the better course. 

I thought Silloth was playable, but I could see if there was a 20 mph wind the course would be too tight in many places including on the greens.  We only had a 10ish wind - not a problem. 

Yes, Silloth is a very good course, but not a serious contender for top 100 in the world like I believe Deal and Rye are.  I would place Silloth with the likes of Pennard, Cavendish, Beau Desert, Kington, Tenby, Brora, Huntercombe, Castletown, Aberdovey and Southerndown - all very fine courses and some I prefer over others, but in the same general class of quality. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Niall C

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Re: Silloth on Solway & Seascale: A Cumbrian Couplet - 13 complete
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2011, 01:39:47 PM »
The wind was off the left on the 5th?  I don't think I've ever played there with that wind, which might explain why Sean's driver/ 8 iron experience doesn't sound familiar.  In fact, I wish I could play the course when half of those holes were driver, 8 iron!

Mark

As usual you beat me to it. I suggest we have built Silloth up so much that Sean felt obliged to try and be over critical but even so, 8/9 iron on all the par 4's on the front nine playing into a partial head wind ? Either Sean hits the ball 300 yards plus off the tee or he was playing from the ladies tee, and even then.....

As for the suggestion the greens are small, well TOC they might not be but they certainly aint tiny. Sorry, I've got to call foul on this one.

Niall

Scott Warren

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2011, 05:47:25 PM »
Yep, massive airball.

I just find a lot of the criticisms don't add up, Sean.

And then you go and say Rye has a better set of greens than Silloth (!!!) and I'm floored. For starters Rye hasn't nearly the variety of great greensites that Silloth has.

And as for that, the variety of 3s, 4s and 5s at Silloth is immense.

I had to giggle at your comment that 16 was too much like 12 "except it's 20 yards shorter and the green us much more bold" or words to that effect.

And to be sure, Silloth doesn't have a hole even nearly as weak as 1, 10, 11 or 17 at Rye, 9 at Deal or 10, 12 or 15 at St Enodoc.

If I didn't know better I'd think Silloth's lack of posh history and/or great views has counted against it here, because if we're sizing up the courses alone your comments seem wide of the mark to me.

Sean_A

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2011, 02:06:00 AM »
Scott

I can understand not liking #s 10, 12 (though I think both these holes are very good) and 15 at St Enodoc, but I think you would do better than to call those holes weak.  We will never agree on 11 and at Rye - I think they are both good holes. 

Yes, Silloth has terrific greensites, but average greens.  Rye's are far more interesting once on them and the sites are not to be sneezed at.  Why do you think the 3s are so famous? 

I think the variety of 4s at Silloth is lacking a bit because there isn't a killer par 4 or two in the bunch.  There are a ton of shorties that you must have realized when playing, but that said, the course does about as well as it can given the similar playing yardages. 

Silloth's 16 is similar to 12 - no? 

On the contrary, I thought Silloth had a lot of great views.  Certainly more than Rye and Deal can muster up together.  Coming back is a bit of a blight, but we can't have everything. 

You are mistaken if you think I go for posh clubs.  I do like history for sure, who doesn't?  In the main I prefer the wee clubs such as Silloth who don't charge the earth for a game of golf, but there are some exceptions because sometimes courses are exceptional. 

Read my comments again.  They do add up for someone with an objective view of matters and excepting for differences of opinion.

As I said earlier, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell I would rate Silloth higher than Pennard and Pennard ain't no 2* or Doak 7 (world class) despite how much I love place.  That doesn't mean I don't like Silloth, I do, well enough to put it in my favourite 25. I just don't believe its a world beater course so it wouldn't make my top 25 best for sure. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 04:55:02 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Scott Warren

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2011, 02:36:56 AM »
Sean:

Quote
I think the variety of 4s at Silloth is lacking a bit because there isn't a killer par 4 or two in the bunch.  There area a ton of shorties that you must have realized when playing, but that said, the course does about as well as it can given the similar playing yardages.

You're falling into the trap of judging holes based on their par.

Sure, Rye has a good dose of strong par fours (4, 6, 13, 15, 18) but it really needs those brawny two-shotters because there is only one par five on the course, a short and fairly lacklustre one at that.

Silloth on the other hand has quality par fives at 5, 13, 14 and 17 all of them likely to be reachable in two in the right conditions and a three-shot test in others. Of the par fours, 1, 7 and 11 are fairly brawny in their own right.

Comparing each course's set of "longer holes" regardless of par, Silloth emerges ahead of Rye.

It's driveable/drive and flick par fours (2 and 10) are also a match for Rye's 9th and 11th holes.

The par threes at Rye are a better set, but I'd argue that the threes at Silloth are not far shy. You criticise 12 and 16 for being too similar, yet you seem to overlook the fact that 2, 5 and 7 at Rye all feature the same style of greensite and call for similar clubs much of the time.

In short, you're being selective in your appraisal, I feel.

As for your claim of "sameness" on the front nine par fours, as I posted further above but you seem to have ignored or overlooked:

1st - 380 yards - dell green falling away left and long, flagstick visible
2nd - 315 yards (downhill drive - 285 yards as the crow flies) - grade level green
3rd - 352 yards (downhill drive, uphill approach) - hilltop/benched green
4th - 372 yards (downhill drive) - grade level green dropping off at both sides
7th - 398 yards (uphill drive) - dell/punchbowl green that gathers, flagstick completely blind
8th - 371 yards - green at grade level blocked from the right by a dune short.

There's hardly a repeated shot among the set of them.

From memory, I hit a 6i or greater into 1, 7, 11 and 18. Add to that the par five holes and there's all the brawn you need.

Sean_A

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2011, 03:35:17 AM »
Scott

Silloth has one good par 5 (the 5th) and one great par 5 (the 13th).  The three shotters heading back to the house are average holes which don't add a lot to the course.  #14 is just a whack it over the hill jobbie and there is an very good chance for birdie.  #17 is a feeder hole to the green making it fairly easy to reach in two without any real risk of penalty. Comparing the 4.5 (of which all the par 5s at Silloth are) holes I think Rye wins hands down.  To start, Silloth doesn't have a brawny par 4 one could call a 4.5.  Rye has the 4th, 6th, 13th and depending on the wind #s 3 and 16.  To me, there is more quality in those holes than at Silloth's par 5s despite Silloth's 13th being the pick of the bunch.  I think you are forgetting just how good the green sites are at Rye. 

Silloth is no match for Rye's short holes, but then I like Rye's 17th.  On the other hand, I question the greatness of Rye's 7th (for many the best par 3 on the course).  I think it's too severe given the wind at the back.  However, I could call into question Silloth's 16th with a tail wind.  The false front makes it hard to bounce one up (though I did by accident - tee hee) and the green is tiny for trying to hold a 5/6 iron.  In essence, the same criticism of Rye's 7th applies to Silloth's 16th.  That said, I like Silloth's 6th a lot.  I don't know if its the best par 3, but I like the look with the ridge between the bunkers smiling back at the tee. 

Yes, I think Silloth's very short 4s are as good as Rye's and may just pip them as the backdrop on #11 is shocking.  I like Silloth's 10th the best of these holes, but I wish they would make it just a wee bit more of a temptation to go for the green off the tee.   

I stated earlier that the sameness I referred to on the front nine 4s was the same type clubs for the approach.  Not once was I stretched to hit anything like a mid iron let alone a wood from the fairway and you know as well as I that it doesn't take anything like 300 yard drives to it short irons in to those greens.  The back nine has a few mid-iron approaches at 11 (a very good hole) and 18, but no more club than that.  What can I say other than to speak from experience?  Its true that the wind wasn't strong enough to add serious teeth to the front nine, but with the rough so harsh its probably a good thing.  For sure it must be said that folks will miss some drives and have longer shots in or more likely hacks out of the rough and the same short iron in with the one shot rough penalty.  The thing is, I wasn't striking the ball well and the front still played short.  Regardless, it is one of my preferences to have at least a few 4.5 holes which are really asking the player to risk something.  There isn't a par 4 at Silloth that asks this question even though two par 5s do and they happen to be the best two par 5s.  Jeepers, even Rye's 1st has something about the green which makes missing it in two no gimme up and down.  Rye is full of that all over - which is why I think you are underestimating the green complexes. 

Anyway, I liked Silloth and can readily accept that you love Silloth.  There is no harm in that.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

BCrosby

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2011, 08:44:55 AM »
Good discussion gents. Much appreciated. I knew little about Silloth. It is now on my playlist.

Bob

Scott Warren

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Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2011, 09:12:07 AM »
It's worth the time it takes to get there, Bob. Buda 2012 is one to look out for, I reckon.

Sean:

Quote
Silloth has one good par 5 (the 5th) and one great par 5 (the 13th).  The three shotters heading back to the house are average holes which don't add a lot to the course.  #14 is just a whack it over the hill jobbie and there is an very good chance for birdie.  #17 is a feeder hole to the green making it fairly easy to reach in two without any real risk of penalty. Comparing the 4.5 (of which all the par 5s at Silloth are) holes I think Rye wins hands down.  To start, Silloth doesn't have a brawny par 4 one could call a 4.5.  Rye has the 4th, 6th, 13th and depending on the wind #s 3 and 16.  To me, there is more quality in those holes than at Silloth's par 5s despite Silloth's 13th being the pick of the bunch.  I think you are forgetting just how good the green sites are at Rye.

I may be underplaying that. Rye has some great green sites (3, 4, 5, 9, 14, 16, 18), but so does Silloth (1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 13, 16).

But I am certain you are underestimating 14 and 17 at Silloth. The thrill of the blind second on 14 at Silloth to a greensite similar to that on the 13th at Rye is different in what way? You're hitting a comparable club on both shots. and the features, challenges and risks/rewards are much the same.

At the 17th, the general vicinity of the green is easy enough to find, but there are the same subtle slopes to be overcome at the green that you laud in the 1st at Rye, an inferior hole in every sense.

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Silloth is no match for Rye's short holes, but then I like Rye's 17th.  On the other hand, I question the greatness of Rye's 7th (for many the best par 3 on the course).  I think it's too severe given the wind at the back.  However, I could call into question Silloth's 16th with a tail wind.  The false front makes it hard to bounce one up (though I did by accident - tee hee) and the green is tiny for trying to hold a 5/6 iron.  In essence, the same criticism of Rye's 7th applies to Silloth's 16th.  That said, I like Silloth's 6th a lot.  I don't know if its the best par 3, but I like the look with the ridge between the bunkers smiling back at the tee.

As good as Rye's par threes are, and they are very good, the similarity of the greensites at 2, 5 and 7 is equal to or greater than the similarity of 12 and 16 at Silloth, but affects one more hole.

The 6th at Silloth is a fun shot between the dunes, so is the deft wedge to the small green at the 9th, and the 12 and 16th are solid holes, providing that longer iron shot you're complaining about missing at the par fours. I actually prefer the 12th in hindsight for its subtlety. That false front is a real strength.

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Yes, I think Silloth's very short 4s are as good as Rye's and may just pip them as the backdrop on #11 is shocking.  I like Silloth's 10th the best of these holes, but I wish they would make it just a wee bit more of a temptation to go for the green off the tee.

Of the entire four holes, the 2nd at Silloth might have the most temptation to give it a crack. The OOB at 10 put me off, the tiny, sloped green on 9 at Rye scares me and I just want a wedge to it from a decent spot, while 11 is a dog of the highest order. Great green, pity about every single other thing about it.

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I stated earlier that the sameness I referred to on the front nine 4s was the same type clubs for the approach.

You really care that deeply that you've got similar clubs in hand when you're hitting entirely different shots from hole to hole? I wouldn't mind playing the same club into 1, 3, 4, 7 and 8 (as highly unlikely as that would be) because to each green I'd be trying to do something massively different with the shot. I must say, I didn't pick you as one who carried a little card in his bag on which he ticks off each club after hitting it to ensure a course "makes you use every club in the bag". ;D Maybe because I carry too few clubs for that to mean anything.

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Regardless, it is one of my preferences to have at least a few 4.5 holes which are really asking the player to risk something.  There isn't a par 4 at Silloth that asks this question even though two par 5s do and they happen to be the best two par 5s.

Who cares what par is on the card? 5 and 13 are scintillating par 4.5s. So is 17 to a lesser extent. 14 is as good a hole as 13 at Rye, it just didn't benefit from Darwin's fawning. ;)

Truly, I feel like you missed something big here. It's not just because I've done my arse for £50, though it's much more affordable in AU$ now than it was when we made the wager!!

I might not be at Buda 2012, but I hope you will be so you can get another look and maybe come across to my ay of thinking.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2011, 11:22:30 AM »
Scott

What you are forgeting about Rye's par 3s is the wind.  5 is opposite to 2 and 7.  2 is a bouncer hole and 7 is a carry hole.  Silloth's are in the same direction and both really need a carry.  One can bounce one in on both (very difficult shot), but the same can be done at Rye's 7th, though it is really more of a hit and hope shot if that is the strategy.  I like Silloth's 6th, but it too doesn't pose a real problem in having a very good chance at an up n' down so long as one stays left.  To me, there isn't nearly the trickery around Silloth's greens in general once they are missed.  That isn't the case at Rye for many of the holes.  

I am not overly keen on Rye's 13th, but at least it takes some balls to hit over the hill at the green with a chance that it will never be seen again.  Silloth's 14 and 17 are no brainer go for it holes.  There is little difficulty in recovery and both are downwind.  Not bad holes, but certainly no better than Rye's 13th which has some amount of cache.  I still contend that the danger of Rye's 1st is going long in two and that isn't a bargain up n' down.  I am not saying its a stellar hole, but as an opener it works just fine.  

I don't really care about the same clubs in hand unless it becomes a pattern which is too repetitive.  That is what I thought on Silloth's front nine or I wouldn't have raised the issue - which btw two other folks in our party did.  

I am always game to play fun and interesting courses which I consider Silloth to be.  So long as Buda is on the weekend and not close to my June trip to Ballybunion/Lahinch (yippity yip) I will try to be there.  Unfortunately, the timing of Buda usually seems to be a weekday deal so I don't hold out much hope.  

If I am missing something at Silloth than that means it should be in strong consideration for top 100 in the world.  Do you hinestly think Silloth is in that class?

Bob, you should play Silloth, it will richly reward your efforts.  

Ciao

  
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 11:28:36 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2011, 11:44:57 AM »
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If I am missing something at Silloth than that means it should be in strong consideration for top 100 in the world.  Do you hinestly think Silloth is in that class?

Yes.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2011, 06:02:51 PM »
I don't know either Silloth or Rye, but I think you're probably both crazy - what is that about dissing #10 at St Enedoc? :)

If there are holes to criticize there, then it's #13 and #14, which are both not proper links holes, but on agricultural land. I'd also accept #12 as not a links hole, but it works quite well as a heathland hole. But #10, come on, how many coffee table books have that as an all-world great par 4.5?

Ulrich
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 06:05:05 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposť (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2011, 07:24:49 PM »
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If I am missing something at Silloth than that means it should be in strong consideration for top 100 in the world.  Do you hinestly think Silloth is in that class?

Yes.

Scott

There you have it then.  Silloth would struggle to make my top 40 quality designs in GB&I so I am guessing it really isn't a top 100 world for me though I couldn't be sure.  

Tucky

I don't have a problem with St Enodoc's 10th - its a good hole even if a bit unconventional.  

#14 too is a very good hole.  Links schminkx, believe me, the ball rolls plenty on that hole.   

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 05:03:05 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2011, 04:58:57 AM »
Sean & Scott - you are giving this site a bad name by debating politely and passionately. I thought the whole idea was to exchange insults for 1500 posts and disagree about everything.  ::)

Scott - I have to agree with Sean on the front 9 par threes at Rye, they are very different in the approaches to the greens with 7 being a very difficult carry all the way shot.

Sean - I have to agree with Scott on 11 at Rye which is possibly the poorest (but also the most ££££ providing) tee shot in links golf. Played it loads of times and I still don't have a clue where to aim!

The new sea wall tee on 9 at Deal removes the Scotty argument of the open area on the right off the tee. It now brings into play the right hand fairway bunker and requires two good biffs to get home. In the South East Links it played the hardest hole on the course.
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2011, 05:09:19 AM »
Chappers

Rye's 11th, I am not sure I understand the consternation of a bite off as much as you dare tee shot that is drivable for flat bellies who are daring. I can understand not liking the hole or even thinking it a poor hole from the daily tee because of the blindness, but a poor hole from the medal tee?  Would it change your opinion if the water were a huge sandy waste area?  Perhaps this is a case of faders not minding the hole as it sets up easy to my eye and drawers not really having a clue other than to layup.  I spose my willingness to accept this unusual water concept for a links is the artificial pond is in the golfer's face. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 05:24:29 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2011, 06:54:45 AM »
Sean

Firstly the 12th is not like the 16th, they require totally different shots. The 12th depends a lot on the positioning of the pin, if its on the left with a left hand tee position which the greenkeeper likes to do, then you need to shape the shot. If its middle of right you still have to be careful of the bounce off heathery bank as you will be landing the ball short of the green.

The 16th on the other hand is either a very difficult run up the slope requiring landing the ball in the right position in fron to fthe slope with the right trajectory. Alternatively the shot is to armail it and try and hold the green. If you had been playing from the gents tees rather than the forward tees you would have been hitting more than an eight iron which would make it a lot harder to hold I can assure you.

As for no strong par 4's, and all the par 5's being 4.5's, I'll need to give you both barrels on that another day as I have to run right now.

Niall

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