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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on June 22, 2011, 04:07:28 PM

Title: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 22, 2011, 04:07:28 PM
Silloth on Solway GC is located in the centre of a rather grim town not long on charm.  Hard on the port, one enters the house and upon making his way to the lounge is immediately confronted with a rather determined image of Cecil Leitch in the spot one would imagine was reserved for the queen in years past.  The club can be rightly proud of its asscociation with the hard hitting Ms Leitch as she dominated ladies golf for a few years after WWI.  Among her triumphs were four British, five French, two English and one Canadian championships. These numbers could likely be higher if not for WWI.  Looking left of Cecil we see the putting green and first tee and an impressive sight it is, but not nearly so as is playing the course. 

The first order of business to discuss is the rough.  Anybody with experience of the M6 will know that Cumbria is nearly always shrouded in cloud and rain.  So yes, the rough will be long and harsh.  The heather will be robust and the stuff of dreams for London clubs. Balanced against this premium on accuracy off the tee is a plethora of great shots. From the down n' up fairway of #3, to the squared off and fallaway green of the 4th, to the in search of fairway on the fifth, to the drivable 10th and the extreme plateau green of the 13th; Silloth has it all there for the taking. 

The first eases one into the game and rightly so.  The wind of the day I think was fairly prevailing, quartering against from the left.
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The obscured approach is to a rather small green; one of many at Silloth.
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Another modest length two shotter, the second cuts to the right.  Perhaps this is the one weakness of the par 4s in general, many were driver wedge to eight iron.  That said, the green sites are often quite different and with punishing rough one doesn't need too many long testing wood shots.
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The approach.
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Climbing to a high tee we are now confronted with a blind shot lurching downhill and obviously left, but where left one can't tell.  Cresting the hill one is confronted with the view below.  The direct line to the green is cut-off by a bank of heather.  One can either layup and leave a longer approach more on equal height with the green or go low and be left with a nasty little wedge.  This is a terrific hole which at a moment says hello to the golfer. I believe Dr Mac moved the green to its current spot in 1914.
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Looking back up the fairway.
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The 4th tee is above the third green and like the previous hole, features a blind drive to a rather narrow target.  Below is the approach.
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A look at the green from the 5th tee.
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The three shot fifth is most interesting for its in search of the fairway drive.  With the wind pushing off the left it is difficult to know the exact line.
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The approach plays longer than it looks as the green is slightly uphill with bunkers protecting the landing area.  For most, the two right bunkers must be taken on to reach the green in two.
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The first short hole at Silloth is for me the best.  The ridge connecting between the two bunkers is very reminiscent of Raynor's design method at Yeamans Hall, even if the styling is different.
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The 7th is a climber which takes a bit of local knowledge to figure out even though the hole is uphill and without a favourable wind it plays short. The green is located about 40 yards on the far side of a hill crest so the approach is really played to the top with the expectation that gravity will do the rest.
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Play is from the right of the picture heading downhill toward the green.
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Often times it can be the case that whilea hole isn't poor per se, it doesn't add much to the course; the 8th is a case in point.  It is about this time that one twigs there have been perhaps one or two too many holes of this general driver/wedge or 9 iron or 8 iron length on the front nine.  Like all of these holes (#s 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 and 8) , there is something to separate the identity of each hole and the 8th has a centreline bunker.  I fear this may not be enough to make up for the lack of playing length diversity. 

The finishing hole going out is a teaser par 3 with several bunkers guarding the front and wings. 
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The back nine is away from the sea and in the main plays back to the house.  The run of 10 through 13 is a superb mix of thinking man's golf combined with the possibility of expertly contolled brute force winning the day.  The 10th is the sort of hole that most will want to bang a driver over a heathery knoll to the left and see what gives.  It is thought that Dr Mac chose this greesite. The hole is about 250 on this line, but OOB is hard right and there are corner bunkers to be dealt with.  There is a very short layup option short of two crossing bunkers which I believe are fairly new, but this leaves an obscured approach with the OOB ever present.
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The obligatory, but in this case well out of the way caravan park, creates OOB down the right on the 11th.  The hole turns hard right in a similar fashion to Wallasey's 8th and for the first time in the round requires something more than an 8 iron approach.
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The long par 3 12th is a fairly straight away hole, but a tough par nonetheless.  The singular 13th is an incredible par 5 the likes of which I have never seen before.  Hitting back into the wind, the hole is still reachable in two for fairly long hitters, but the margin of error is seemingly less than zero.  I can imagine the playing of every shot on this hole being completely dependent on the wind direction. 
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I knew this green site had no bail out area because its on view from both angles playing previous holes.  I therefore decided the only prudent play was a 5 iron with the hope of getting out of Dodge with a five.  The break in the fairway helps to create the idea of a do or die style second for anyone who doesn't hit a decent drive.  The second-hand astro turf covering the paths is a blight on the course which probably saves on maintenance.  Perhaps the club should consider going back to traditional paths on holes where they are prominently on view.   
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Even for the the short chip I dared not go at the hole!
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I can give a pass to the front nine having so many holes play the same yardage because of the variety of greensites, but for me the finishing stretch at Silloth is the Achilles Heel.  None of the holes are remotely poor, but none have the pizzaz of the many holes dotted throughout the first 13.  The 14th is an up n' over par 5 with a blind green.  Just over the crest of the hill is a break in the fairway loaded with heather.  The green sits in a low spot. #15 is a good length two-shotter that is hard to make out from the tee.  The slightly obscured tee shot is an element of design I enjoy. The approach is also interesting as the bunker shoulder effects the bounce.  The short 16th is perhaps the only hole I didn't think was up to scratch.  The hole is too similar to the 12th, but a more severe version even though it is 20 yards shorter.

#17 offers a fine sight from the tee with a heaving fairway and its a bit of respite on the card.  The green is very reachable in two and has a feeding downslope to the green.  With a forward hole location this hole is a bit more demanding. 
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The Home hole isn't a bad finish.  The fairway bunkers on the right are well placed and the approach distance is difficult to gauge as the green site is slightly below the fairway.   
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Despite the gloomy weather I was most impressed by Sillloth.  There are enough very good holes with not an egg among them.  Its easy to see why the course is highly rated and loved by so many visitors.  At £45 this is most definitely my sort of golf and would happily return.  2011

Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/silloth1/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/silloth1/)

Seascale
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60048.msg1419562.html#msg1419562 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60048.msg1419562.html#msg1419562)

Ciao
Title: Re: Silloth on Solway & Seascale: A Cumbrian Couplet
Post by: Mark Chaplin on June 22, 2011, 04:36:33 PM
I take it Silloth is a two ball course? Some of those greens do not look big enough for more than a pair of over dined golfers!
Title: Re: Silloth on Solway & Seascale: A Cumbrian Couplet - front nine complete
Post by: Scott Warren on June 22, 2011, 07:55:00 PM
Sean,

Quote
This is about the time that one twigs there have been perhaps one or two too many holes of this general driver/wedge or 9 iron or 8 iron length on the front nine.  Like all of these holes (#s 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 and , there is something to separate each hole and the 8th has a centreline bunker, this may not be enough make up for the lack of playing length diversity.

1st 380 yards - dell green falling away left and long, flagstick visible
2nd 315 yards (downhill drive - 285 yards as the crow flies) - grade level green
3rd 352 yards (downhill drive, uphill approach) - hilltop/benched green
4th 372 (downhill drive) - grade level green dropping off at both sides
7th 398 (uphill drive) - dell/punchbowl green that gathers, flagstick completely blind
8th 371 - green at grade level blocked from the right by a dune short.

Funnily enough, my reaction to this stretch was quite different to yours. In my review last year, I wrote of the 8th hole:

It surprises me now looking at the scorecard that so many of the par fours are so similar in length, because they felt anything but while I was playing them.

There isn't an approach shot in there similar to any other, with the exception of the 1st and 7th, which are still quite different owing to the much shallower dell in which the 1st green is set and the fact that green is slightly domed long and right while the 7th gathers.

PS - Pretty please with a cherry on top, could you size your pics at 800 wide?
Title: Re: Silloth on Solway & Seascale: A Cumbrian Couplet - 13 complete
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 23, 2011, 02:21:13 AM
The wind was off the left on the 5th?  I don't think I've ever played there with that wind, which might explain why Sean's driver/ 8 iron experience doesn't sound familiar.  In fact, I wish I could play the course when half of those holes were driver, 8 iron!
Title: Re: Silloth on Solway & Seascale: A Cumbrian Couplet
Post by: John Mayhugh on June 23, 2011, 08:11:56 AM
I take it Silloth is a two ball course? Some of those greens do not look big enough for more than a pair of over dined golfers!

Some do look pretty small.

The green sites look great. Can't wait to get up there to see it.

Thanks for the tour, Sean.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 23, 2011, 08:26:29 AM
1*?

One star?

One fucking star?

Explain yourself.

I just got home from a sizeable dinner, the above is obviously meant in jest (to a certain extent ;))
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 23, 2011, 08:37:32 AM
1*?

One star?

One fucking star?

Explain yourself.

I just got home from a sizeable dinner, the above is obviously meant in jest (to a certain extent ;))

Scott

My young and petulant Aussie, Pennard is MY measuring stick for off colour courses and Silloth isn't as good as Pennard.  As, Pennard, a course near and dear to my heart, earns only 1 star, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that Silloth deserves two (or were you suggesting three?).  I like the course a lot and 1* is a very high rating for me. 

Tucky

Cheers.

Mark

Yes, I hit a huge drive and an all time 8 iron on 5.  Piece of piss that hole.

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 23, 2011, 08:45:56 AM
So I take it you disagree with Pearce and me (and did Andrew agree with us?) That it's better than Deal and Rye?
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 23, 2011, 09:22:54 AM
So I take it you disagree with Pearce and me (and did Andrew agree with us?) That it's better than Deal and Rye?

Silloth better than Rye or Deal?  No how, no way.  To be sure, if I am paying the freight I would play Silloth over Deal anyday.  So far as Rye is concerned, I would say Silloth and it are about equal.  I can't fathom how you think Silloth has it over Rye or Deal strictly in terms of quality. That is a concept I would like explained to me.  Filtering out mmy freakish preferences and relying on Doak (with 7 being an all world top 100), I would say

Rye 7

Deal 7

Silloth 6

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 23, 2011, 09:46:27 AM
Sean,

I don't recall you being much longer than me but I don't think I've ever hit as little as an 8I into any of 1, 3 or 7 each of which play into the prevailing wind and 7 is steeply uphill.  2 is a short par 4 (I suspect the flatbellies might think it driveable, though that would be a brave shout to take a drive over the dune at the green).  4 is a drive/wedge hole but there's nothing wrong with that. 

I'm surprised that you didn't feel more enthusiastic about 9 which for me is a great short par 3.

I sort of agree with you about 14, 15 and 16, though most courses have a breather of sorts and all of these are better than each of 10, 11 and 17 at Rye.  !6 would (if this makes any sense) be a better hole if 12 wasn't there.  I think 17 is a very good hole and I like 18 as a finisher.

As someone who thinks Rye is generally over-rated I have to say I do completely agree with Scott, for me, Silloth is clearly better than Rye (how can a course be world top 100 with holes like 10, 11 and 17 at Rye?  Particularly when there are other weak holes there (1, 7, 14 come to mind).  The Deal comparison is closer and I was surprised when I played Silloth with Scott how readily he concluded that Silloth was the superior course.  Nonetheless, I can see the argument and, on balance, go along with it.  No doubt Deal is a very fine course but so, IMHO, is Silloth.

I get the impression, by the way, from your Seascale post, that some of your group struggled with Silloth.  Did you think it was unduly difficult?
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 23, 2011, 11:25:26 AM
Mark, I am not really longer than you at all and I am surprised you don't have short irons intot the three holes mentioned. 

1 was a Driver 8 iron

3 was a driver easy wedge

7 was a driver 9 iron

2 is drivable, but not for me unless the wind was reversed and strong.

9 is a good little par 3 because of the wind, but I wouldn't say its great.   

I don't have any problem at all with 11 and 17 at Rye.  They are both good holes, especially #17.  14 and 15 at Silloth aren't bad holes and I don't have a problem with them except in that they come in sequence with 17 and 18.  Silloth doesn't have the standout holes of length that Rye has.  Combine this with the superior 3s at Rye and the better greens and for me this seals the deal that Rye is comfortably the better course. 

I thought Silloth was playable, but I could see if there was a 20 mph wind the course would be too tight in many places including on the greens.  We only had a 10ish wind - not a problem. 

Yes, Silloth is a very good course, but not a serious contender for top 100 in the world like I believe Deal and Rye are.  I would place Silloth with the likes of Pennard, Cavendish, Beau Desert, Kington, Tenby, Brora, Huntercombe, Castletown, Aberdovey and Southerndown - all very fine courses and some I prefer over others, but in the same general class of quality. 

Ciao
Title: Re: Silloth on Solway & Seascale: A Cumbrian Couplet - 13 complete
Post by: Niall C on June 23, 2011, 01:39:47 PM
The wind was off the left on the 5th?  I don't think I've ever played there with that wind, which might explain why Sean's driver/ 8 iron experience doesn't sound familiar.  In fact, I wish I could play the course when half of those holes were driver, 8 iron!

Mark

As usual you beat me to it. I suggest we have built Silloth up so much that Sean felt obliged to try and be over critical but even so, 8/9 iron on all the par 4's on the front nine playing into a partial head wind ? Either Sean hits the ball 300 yards plus off the tee or he was playing from the ladies tee, and even then.....

As for the suggestion the greens are small, well TOC they might not be but they certainly aint tiny. Sorry, I've got to call foul on this one.

Niall
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 23, 2011, 05:47:25 PM
Yep, massive airball.

I just find a lot of the criticisms don't add up, Sean.

And then you go and say Rye has a better set of greens than Silloth (!!!) and I'm floored. For starters Rye hasn't nearly the variety of great greensites that Silloth has.

And as for that, the variety of 3s, 4s and 5s at Silloth is immense.

I had to giggle at your comment that 16 was too much like 12 "except it's 20 yards shorter and the green us much more bold" or words to that effect.

And to be sure, Silloth doesn't have a hole even nearly as weak as 1, 10, 11 or 17 at Rye, 9 at Deal or 10, 12 or 15 at St Enodoc.

If I didn't know better I'd think Silloth's lack of posh history and/or great views has counted against it here, because if we're sizing up the courses alone your comments seem wide of the mark to me.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 24, 2011, 02:06:00 AM
Scott

I can understand not liking #s 10, 12 (though I think both these holes are very good) and 15 at St Enodoc, but I think you would do better than to call those holes weak.  We will never agree on 11 and at Rye - I think they are both good holes. 

Yes, Silloth has terrific greensites, but average greens.  Rye's are far more interesting once on them and the sites are not to be sneezed at.  Why do you think the 3s are so famous? 

I think the variety of 4s at Silloth is lacking a bit because there isn't a killer par 4 or two in the bunch.  There are a ton of shorties that you must have realized when playing, but that said, the course does about as well as it can given the similar playing yardages. 

Silloth's 16 is similar to 12 - no? 

On the contrary, I thought Silloth had a lot of great views.  Certainly more than Rye and Deal can muster up together.  Coming back is a bit of a blight, but we can't have everything. 

You are mistaken if you think I go for posh clubs.  I do like history for sure, who doesn't?  In the main I prefer the wee clubs such as Silloth who don't charge the earth for a game of golf, but there are some exceptions because sometimes courses are exceptional. 

Read my comments again.  They do add up for someone with an objective view of matters and excepting for differences of opinion.

As I said earlier, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell I would rate Silloth higher than Pennard and Pennard ain't no 2* or Doak 7 (world class) despite how much I love place.  That doesn't mean I don't like Silloth, I do, well enough to put it in my favourite 25. I just don't believe its a world beater course so it wouldn't make my top 25 best for sure. 

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 24, 2011, 02:36:56 AM
Sean:

Quote
I think the variety of 4s at Silloth is lacking a bit because there isn't a killer par 4 or two in the bunch.  There area a ton of shorties that you must have realized when playing, but that said, the course does about as well as it can given the similar playing yardages.

You're falling into the trap of judging holes based on their par.

Sure, Rye has a good dose of strong par fours (4, 6, 13, 15, 18) but it really needs those brawny two-shotters because there is only one par five on the course, a short and fairly lacklustre one at that.

Silloth on the other hand has quality par fives at 5, 13, 14 and 17 all of them likely to be reachable in two in the right conditions and a three-shot test in others. Of the par fours, 1, 7 and 11 are fairly brawny in their own right.

Comparing each course's set of "longer holes" regardless of par, Silloth emerges ahead of Rye.

It's driveable/drive and flick par fours (2 and 10) are also a match for Rye's 9th and 11th holes.

The par threes at Rye are a better set, but I'd argue that the threes at Silloth are not far shy. You criticise 12 and 16 for being too similar, yet you seem to overlook the fact that 2, 5 and 7 at Rye all feature the same style of greensite and call for similar clubs much of the time.

In short, you're being selective in your appraisal, I feel.

As for your claim of "sameness" on the front nine par fours, as I posted further above but you seem to have ignored or overlooked:

1st - 380 yards - dell green falling away left and long, flagstick visible
2nd - 315 yards (downhill drive - 285 yards as the crow flies) - grade level green
3rd - 352 yards (downhill drive, uphill approach) - hilltop/benched green
4th - 372 yards (downhill drive) - grade level green dropping off at both sides
7th - 398 yards (uphill drive) - dell/punchbowl green that gathers, flagstick completely blind
8th - 371 yards - green at grade level blocked from the right by a dune short.

There's hardly a repeated shot among the set of them.

From memory, I hit a 6i or greater into 1, 7, 11 and 18. Add to that the par five holes and there's all the brawn you need.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 24, 2011, 03:35:17 AM
Scott

Silloth has one good par 5 (the 5th) and one great par 5 (the 13th).  The three shotters heading back to the house are average holes which don't add a lot to the course.  #14 is just a whack it over the hill jobbie and there is an very good chance for birdie.  #17 is a feeder hole to the green making it fairly easy to reach in two without any real risk of penalty. Comparing the 4.5 (of which all the par 5s at Silloth are) holes I think Rye wins hands down.  To start, Silloth doesn't have a brawny par 4 one could call a 4.5.  Rye has the 4th, 6th, 13th and depending on the wind #s 3 and 16.  To me, there is more quality in those holes than at Silloth's par 5s despite Silloth's 13th being the pick of the bunch.  I think you are forgetting just how good the green sites are at Rye. 

Silloth is no match for Rye's short holes, but then I like Rye's 17th.  On the other hand, I question the greatness of Rye's 7th (for many the best par 3 on the course).  I think it's too severe given the wind at the back.  However, I could call into question Silloth's 16th with a tail wind.  The false front makes it hard to bounce one up (though I did by accident - tee hee) and the green is tiny for trying to hold a 5/6 iron.  In essence, the same criticism of Rye's 7th applies to Silloth's 16th.  That said, I like Silloth's 6th a lot.  I don't know if its the best par 3, but I like the look with the ridge between the bunkers smiling back at the tee. 

Yes, I think Silloth's very short 4s are as good as Rye's and may just pip them as the backdrop on #11 is shocking.  I like Silloth's 10th the best of these holes, but I wish they would make it just a wee bit more of a temptation to go for the green off the tee.   

I stated earlier that the sameness I referred to on the front nine 4s was the same type clubs for the approach.  Not once was I stretched to hit anything like a mid iron let alone a wood from the fairway and you know as well as I that it doesn't take anything like 300 yard drives to it short irons in to those greens.  The back nine has a few mid-iron approaches at 11 (a very good hole) and 18, but no more club than that.  What can I say other than to speak from experience?  Its true that the wind wasn't strong enough to add serious teeth to the front nine, but with the rough so harsh its probably a good thing.  For sure it must be said that folks will miss some drives and have longer shots in or more likely hacks out of the rough and the same short iron in with the one shot rough penalty.  The thing is, I wasn't striking the ball well and the front still played short.  Regardless, it is one of my preferences to have at least a few 4.5 holes which are really asking the player to risk something.  There isn't a par 4 at Silloth that asks this question even though two par 5s do and they happen to be the best two par 5s.  Jeepers, even Rye's 1st has something about the green which makes missing it in two no gimme up and down.  Rye is full of that all over - which is why I think you are underestimating the green complexes. 

Anyway, I liked Silloth and can readily accept that you love Silloth.  There is no harm in that.

Ciao   
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: BCrosby on June 24, 2011, 08:44:55 AM
Good discussion gents. Much appreciated. I knew little about Silloth. It is now on my playlist.

Bob
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 24, 2011, 09:12:07 AM
It's worth the time it takes to get there, Bob. Buda 2012 is one to look out for, I reckon.

Sean:

Quote
Silloth has one good par 5 (the 5th) and one great par 5 (the 13th).  The three shotters heading back to the house are average holes which don't add a lot to the course.  #14 is just a whack it over the hill jobbie and there is an very good chance for birdie.  #17 is a feeder hole to the green making it fairly easy to reach in two without any real risk of penalty. Comparing the 4.5 (of which all the par 5s at Silloth are) holes I think Rye wins hands down.  To start, Silloth doesn't have a brawny par 4 one could call a 4.5.  Rye has the 4th, 6th, 13th and depending on the wind #s 3 and 16.  To me, there is more quality in those holes than at Silloth's par 5s despite Silloth's 13th being the pick of the bunch.  I think you are forgetting just how good the green sites are at Rye.

I may be underplaying that. Rye has some great green sites (3, 4, 5, 9, 14, 16, 18), but so does Silloth (1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 13, 16).

But I am certain you are underestimating 14 and 17 at Silloth. The thrill of the blind second on 14 at Silloth to a greensite similar to that on the 13th at Rye is different in what way? You're hitting a comparable club on both shots. and the features, challenges and risks/rewards are much the same.

At the 17th, the general vicinity of the green is easy enough to find, but there are the same subtle slopes to be overcome at the green that you laud in the 1st at Rye, an inferior hole in every sense.

Quote
Silloth is no match for Rye's short holes, but then I like Rye's 17th.  On the other hand, I question the greatness of Rye's 7th (for many the best par 3 on the course).  I think it's too severe given the wind at the back.  However, I could call into question Silloth's 16th with a tail wind.  The false front makes it hard to bounce one up (though I did by accident - tee hee) and the green is tiny for trying to hold a 5/6 iron.  In essence, the same criticism of Rye's 7th applies to Silloth's 16th.  That said, I like Silloth's 6th a lot.  I don't know if its the best par 3, but I like the look with the ridge between the bunkers smiling back at the tee.

As good as Rye's par threes are, and they are very good, the similarity of the greensites at 2, 5 and 7 is equal to or greater than the similarity of 12 and 16 at Silloth, but affects one more hole.

The 6th at Silloth is a fun shot between the dunes, so is the deft wedge to the small green at the 9th, and the 12 and 16th are solid holes, providing that longer iron shot you're complaining about missing at the par fours. I actually prefer the 12th in hindsight for its subtlety. That false front is a real strength.

Quote
Yes, I think Silloth's very short 4s are as good as Rye's and may just pip them as the backdrop on #11 is shocking.  I like Silloth's 10th the best of these holes, but I wish they would make it just a wee bit more of a temptation to go for the green off the tee.

Of the entire four holes, the 2nd at Silloth might have the most temptation to give it a crack. The OOB at 10 put me off, the tiny, sloped green on 9 at Rye scares me and I just want a wedge to it from a decent spot, while 11 is a dog of the highest order. Great green, pity about every single other thing about it.

Quote
I stated earlier that the sameness I referred to on the front nine 4s was the same type clubs for the approach.

You really care that deeply that you've got similar clubs in hand when you're hitting entirely different shots from hole to hole? I wouldn't mind playing the same club into 1, 3, 4, 7 and 8 (as highly unlikely as that would be) because to each green I'd be trying to do something massively different with the shot. I must say, I didn't pick you as one who carried a little card in his bag on which he ticks off each club after hitting it to ensure a course "makes you use every club in the bag". ;D Maybe because I carry too few clubs for that to mean anything.

Quote
Regardless, it is one of my preferences to have at least a few 4.5 holes which are really asking the player to risk something.  There isn't a par 4 at Silloth that asks this question even though two par 5s do and they happen to be the best two par 5s.

Who cares what par is on the card? 5 and 13 are scintillating par 4.5s. So is 17 to a lesser extent. 14 is as good a hole as 13 at Rye, it just didn't benefit from Darwin's fawning. ;)

Truly, I feel like you missed something big here. It's not just because I've done my arse for £50, though it's much more affordable in AU$ now than it was when we made the wager!!

I might not be at Buda 2012, but I hope you will be so you can get another look and maybe come across to my ay of thinking.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 24, 2011, 11:22:30 AM
Scott

What you are forgeting about Rye's par 3s is the wind.  5 is opposite to 2 and 7.  2 is a bouncer hole and 7 is a carry hole.  Silloth's are in the same direction and both really need a carry.  One can bounce one in on both (very difficult shot), but the same can be done at Rye's 7th, though it is really more of a hit and hope shot if that is the strategy.  I like Silloth's 6th, but it too doesn't pose a real problem in having a very good chance at an up n' down so long as one stays left.  To me, there isn't nearly the trickery around Silloth's greens in general once they are missed.  That isn't the case at Rye for many of the holes.  

I am not overly keen on Rye's 13th, but at least it takes some balls to hit over the hill at the green with a chance that it will never be seen again.  Silloth's 14 and 17 are no brainer go for it holes.  There is little difficulty in recovery and both are downwind.  Not bad holes, but certainly no better than Rye's 13th which has some amount of cache.  I still contend that the danger of Rye's 1st is going long in two and that isn't a bargain up n' down.  I am not saying its a stellar hole, but as an opener it works just fine.  

I don't really care about the same clubs in hand unless it becomes a pattern which is too repetitive.  That is what I thought on Silloth's front nine or I wouldn't have raised the issue - which btw two other folks in our party did.  

I am always game to play fun and interesting courses which I consider Silloth to be.  So long as Buda is on the weekend and not close to my June trip to Ballybunion/Lahinch (yippity yip) I will try to be there.  Unfortunately, the timing of Buda usually seems to be a weekday deal so I don't hold out much hope.  

If I am missing something at Silloth than that means it should be in strong consideration for top 100 in the world.  Do you hinestly think Silloth is in that class?

Bob, you should play Silloth, it will richly reward your efforts.  

Ciao

  
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 24, 2011, 11:44:57 AM
Quote
If I am missing something at Silloth than that means it should be in strong consideration for top 100 in the world.  Do you hinestly think Silloth is in that class?

Yes.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Ulrich Mayring on June 24, 2011, 06:02:51 PM
I don't know either Silloth or Rye, but I think you're probably both crazy - what is that about dissing #10 at St Enedoc? :)

If there are holes to criticize there, then it's #13 and #14, which are both not proper links holes, but on agricultural land. I'd also accept #12 as not a links hole, but it works quite well as a heathland hole. But #10, come on, how many coffee table books have that as an all-world great par 4.5?

Ulrich
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 24, 2011, 07:24:49 PM
Quote
If I am missing something at Silloth than that means it should be in strong consideration for top 100 in the world.  Do you hinestly think Silloth is in that class?

Yes.

Scott

There you have it then.  Silloth would struggle to make my top 40 quality designs in GB&I so I am guessing it really isn't a top 100 world for me though I couldn't be sure.  

Tucky

I don't have a problem with St Enodoc's 10th - its a good hole even if a bit unconventional.  

#14 too is a very good hole.  Links schminkx, believe me, the ball rolls plenty on that hole.   

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Chaplin on June 25, 2011, 04:58:57 AM
Sean & Scott - you are giving this site a bad name by debating politely and passionately. I thought the whole idea was to exchange insults for 1500 posts and disagree about everything.  ::)

Scott - I have to agree with Sean on the front 9 par threes at Rye, they are very different in the approaches to the greens with 7 being a very difficult carry all the way shot.

Sean - I have to agree with Scott on 11 at Rye which is possibly the poorest (but also the most ££££ providing) tee shot in links golf. Played it loads of times and I still don't have a clue where to aim!

The new sea wall tee on 9 at Deal removes the Scotty argument of the open area on the right off the tee. It now brings into play the right hand fairway bunker and requires two good biffs to get home. In the South East Links it played the hardest hole on the course.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 25, 2011, 05:09:19 AM
Chappers

Rye's 11th, I am not sure I understand the consternation of a bite off as much as you dare tee shot that is drivable for flat bellies who are daring. I can understand not liking the hole or even thinking it a poor hole from the daily tee because of the blindness, but a poor hole from the medal tee?  Would it change your opinion if the water were a huge sandy waste area?  Perhaps this is a case of faders not minding the hole as it sets up easy to my eye and drawers not really having a clue other than to layup.  I spose my willingness to accept this unusual water concept for a links is the artificial pond is in the golfer's face. 

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on June 25, 2011, 06:54:45 AM
Sean

Firstly the 12th is not like the 16th, they require totally different shots. The 12th depends a lot on the positioning of the pin, if its on the left with a left hand tee position which the greenkeeper likes to do, then you need to shape the shot. If its middle of right you still have to be careful of the bounce off heathery bank as you will be landing the ball short of the green.

The 16th on the other hand is either a very difficult run up the slope requiring landing the ball in the right position in fron to fthe slope with the right trajectory. Alternatively the shot is to armail it and try and hold the green. If you had been playing from the gents tees rather than the forward tees you would have been hitting more than an eight iron which would make it a lot harder to hold I can assure you.

As for no strong par 4's, and all the par 5's being 4.5's, I'll need to give you both barrels on that another day as I have to run right now.

Niall
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 25, 2011, 07:11:03 AM
Sean,

Re: Rye's 11th - since when are water and sand equally punishing/severe hazards?

If the water right of the 11th fairway were sand, the hole would be very different.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Michael Whitaker on June 25, 2011, 02:16:20 PM
Thanks, mates, for this discussion! I truly hope that Buda 2012 does take place at Silloth.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on June 25, 2011, 05:03:42 PM
Sean

Firstly the 12th is not like the 16th, they require totally different shots.

Niall on 12, I hit 3r, bounced through the green
16, I hit 5i bounced through the green.
Wind assisting both times, the run ups didn’t’ look on to me.  On the day “similar”.

I came to Siloth from Lytham.  It put a smile back on my face.   In short found it a delight but ain't no Dornoch, Lahinch, RSG (add your own) is it?

Maybe there's lots more to see on repeat visits but I didn't see it I liked the greens (loved 6 - I'll look for a picture- IMO the standout par 3) but they’re not up there with TOC or Deal. 
I bumped into Sean coming off 9 and my off the cuff comment straight away was about the similar mid length holes and how it felt short.  I then teed it up and came up just shy of the shallow swale in front of the green on 10 into the wind.
Unlike Sean, I rather like the 17 especially with the front pin position.  There was space behind our group, so a couple of us dropped extra balls and tried to chip down the back of the bunker and up on the green.  Never got close but it was a lot of Fun trying.

If you’re looking for hyper critical I thought there were a couple of strange walks between holes in what (From memory 9-10 and 16-17) is otherwise a lovely compact course.  An easy walk and overall this is an ideal BUDA venue and well worth the windscreen time.   I’d love another crack at it
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 25, 2011, 05:42:18 PM
Tony's comments confirm for me that these guys played with a very odd wind indeed.  I'm guessing that on 1 it was helping and from the left?  Either that or they were fobbed off with very advanced tees of the day.  If I hit a really good drive on 1 I'm pleased to be hitting a 6 iron approach, playing into the wind which (bar the day I played with Scott and ndrew, which was dead still) it always is.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 25, 2011, 06:06:22 PM
Mark,

Even on the still day we had, I hit a solid drive at the first and had a 6i in.

As I recall it we were first group off after the club championship or monthly medal. It was a Saturday afternoon - and the tees were pretty well right at the back.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 25, 2011, 06:38:37 PM
Tony's comments confirm for me that these guys played with a very odd wind indeed.  I'm guessing that on 1 it was helping and from the left?  Either that or they were fobbed off with very advanced tees of the day.  If I hit a really good drive on 1 I'm pleased to be hitting a 6 iron approach, playing into the wind which (bar the day I played with Scott and ndrew, which was dead still) it always is.

No, the wind was quartering against off the left on #1.  I can't tell you where the tee markers were as I didn't pay attention to the blocks. 

I spose Tony's comments echo mine.  Silloth falls short in terms of quality with a lot of the big boys, but that isn't really what the course is about.  Silloth is more like a Brora or a Machrihanish or a Pennard - courses most wouldn't say are among the best in the world, but are often cited as among the favourites of many.  For instance, Formby is a superior course (in the same league as Deal so a possible candidate for top 100 world) in terms of the design, but Silloth is a charmer and one I would look forward to playing again. 

Ciao

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 25, 2011, 06:43:22 PM
Sean,

I just don't get it.  here is no way on God's earth that I can reach 1 with a drive and 8 iron with any sort of wind against.  As Scott says, for him (and he's longer than us) on a perfectly still day, it was driver 6 iron.  That's what I'm struggling with.  Of all the criticisms I might have expected of Silloth, lack of length really wasn't one.  If anything, on  a windy day, the front 9 can feellike a bit of a slog.  The driver/8 iron criticism just isn't right, in my book and I can't work out how that's the impression both you and Tony came away with.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 25, 2011, 06:47:34 PM
Mark

I hope it isn't a simple matter of we played the daily tees and you play the medal tees?

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 25, 2011, 07:53:48 PM
Sean:

The card. I believe we played the white tees.

(http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/3656/20110626095609.jpg)
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 26, 2011, 01:30:04 AM
Sean,

With Scott and Andrew, on the only perfectly still day I believe there has ever been in Cumbria, we played the whites.  In the 10 or so other games I have had there I think I've played the whites once and the yellows every other time.  As you'll see from the card, there isn't that much difference on a lot of the holes, anyway.  I do wonder if for some reason the yellow tees were some way forward when you played?
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on June 26, 2011, 01:37:44 AM
Yes we were off the Yellows, I din't think they were particulalry forward as I do then to look at the tee posts for first info on arrivingat a hole.

extra's distances
20 yards on   4
35!           on  7
23           on  8

Later two into wind.

Would have removed a couple of 8i from Sean's hands!
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 26, 2011, 02:35:40 AM
The yellow tee is also a fair distance to the right of the blue/white tee at the 2nd, a worse angle for a crack at the green as it forces you to carry more of the dune.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on June 26, 2011, 04:59:55 AM
Like it or not the reputation of a coursewhen discussed in a clubhouse, tnds to accord the the most weight  to the opinions of the low cappers.  They will tel you about the condition of the greens and the length the club made them play from.   If Siloth wants to be better known it might help to move some Yellows back.It would appear that is particulalry so when the wind is from the south and east.

 Strange world we live in.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 26, 2011, 05:12:12 AM
Tony,

Were you fellas told you had to play from the forward tees? We rocked up, paid our £50 and they said the whites were fine, and that was on a Saturday afternoon when the members had just been using them (when you'd think they might not want the extra traffic on them).
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on June 27, 2011, 02:39:13 PM
Tony/Sean,

It would appear that maybe you didn't quite play the old lady when she had her teeth in ! As you say, Silloth is a charming course even off the medals (whites). Loads of birdies and eagles to be had but every single hole can just as easily bite if you hit a loose one.

That Golf World Top 1000 UK courses book had it the 4th most difficult in the UK but I reckon that would be for the blue championship tees which are worth playing off if only once a year just to remind yourself how difficult the game can be.

Its a shame you didn't play it at a bit more of a stretch because I think then you would have really got to think about the contours. Playing an approach shot with a 4 or 5 iron or longer having to land it short and work with the contours is a good bit harder and more fun than landing the ball on a green with a short iron. As you say, Silloths greens aren't really that startling although there are a few good uns.

A couple of examples. The 3rd hole usually has wind maybe slightly against but more often across for the drive. Usually its across left to right. If you lose the ball to the right you end up in the grassy hollows on the right or worse. From there you haver a tricky approach into a head wind to mid iron or wood to a plateau green falling away on the left. Alternatively if you try and allow for the wind and aim left and the ball doesn't come round onto the fairway you are in a huge natural sandy waste bunker having to eithe go out sidey ways or go over a pile of junk to get to the green. Possibly a hole which gets harder the more you play it simply because the more you play it the more you appreciate its dangers.

Niall
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on June 27, 2011, 02:48:24 PM
Second example is the 7th, a fabulous hole of risk and reward with not a bunker in sight. The tee is offset to the left and from Seans photo you can just about make out the ridge running in line with the tee to a dune on the other side of the fairway. From a short tee you just ignore that and aim left and beyond. Further back you have to contend with it meaning if you take the tiger line and land your drive on the left side of it and in doing so risking landing in the field of thick heather and do mange to hit the fairway your ball gets a bit of a kick left towards the hole. Not only does your ball get a kick on but you are now approaching the green from a better angle. Alternatively taking the safe route to the right means getting a kick right in a direction perpendicular to the line of play and taking you to the right side of the fairway where not only do you have a longer approach shot but you have to carry the length of the right hand side dune ridge, which is all rough, to get to the green.

Whether or not the effect of the ridge was found by accident when they moved the tee to the left, or whether it was a bit of inspiration I don't know but its brilliant all the same.

Niall
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 28, 2011, 02:05:33 AM
Tony/Sean,

It would appear that maybe you didn't quite play the old lady when she had her teeth in ! As you say, Silloth is a charming course even off the medals (whites). Loads of birdies and eagles to be had but every single hole can just as easily bite if you hit a loose one.

That Golf World Top 1000 UK courses book had it the 4th most difficult in the UK but I reckon that would be for the blue championship tees which are worth playing off if only once a year just to remind yourself how difficult the game can be.

Its a shame you didn't play it at a bit more of a stretch because I think then you would have really got to think about the contours. Playing an approach shot with a 4 or 5 iron or longer having to land it short and work with the contours is a good bit harder and more fun than landing the ball on a green with a short iron. As you say, Silloths greens aren't really that startling although there are a few good uns.

A couple of examples. The 3rd hole usually has wind maybe slightly against but more often across for the drive. Usually its across left to right. If you lose the ball to the right you end up in the grassy hollows on the right or worse. From there you haver a tricky approach into a head wind to mid iron or wood to a plateau green falling away on the left. Alternatively if you try and allow for the wind and aim left and the ball doesn't come round onto the fairway you are in a huge natural sandy waste bunker having to eithe go out sidey ways or go over a pile of junk to get to the green. Possibly a hole which gets harder the more you play it simply because the more you play it the more you appreciate its dangers.

Niall

Niall

The course had enough teeth with the rough, heather, fairly narrow fairways and many greens with gunge nearby.  Silloth doesn't need a lot of wind when presented in this manner.  Of course we weren't to know about the similar approach lengths from the yellows beforehand, but it wouldn't have made much difference as we had some long cappers with us and it wouldn't make sense to stretch an already challenging course for them. 

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 28, 2011, 08:02:06 AM
So on one hand it's too short and too easy with boring greens, but on he other hand it's so difficult that high handicappers can't face it from 6400 yards?
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 28, 2011, 11:10:29 AM
So on one hand it's too short and too easy with boring greens, but on he other hand it's so difficult that high handicappers can't face it from 6400 yards?

Scott

First rate interpretive skills on display above.  Being a journalist must come naturally to you.

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 28, 2011, 11:29:12 AM
Scott

First rate interpretive skills on display above.  Being a journalist must come naturally to you.

Ciao
Sean,

Remember he worked at the Daily Mail, so he has learned from the best!

Still, that is sort of what your evaluation of the course reads like.  Hopefully we'll be able to sort BUDA out next year over a weekend so that you can join us and we can rejoin this conversation over a game (and later over a pint of Jennings).  I won't let you hit any more than an 8 iron into the par 4s on the front 9, though, but then you won't need to!
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 28, 2011, 11:35:14 AM
Mark

Huh?  A 1* for a course thast too short, too easy and with boring greens?  You have a different issue than Scott.  He doesn't interpret well, but you have a selective reading disability.  These sorts of problems with reading tend to happen when one isn't as objective as he could be.

I hope we get on track with BUDAs on the weekends.  

Scott has already stated that he believes Silloth to be top 100 in the world.  To me this means Silloth is superior to Pennard, Brora, Portrush Valley and Castletown.  I don't buy that unless he thinks they are all top 100 as well.  Then of course we have to think about what gets tossed for all these courses!  Do you think Silloth is superior to the above courses?


BTW - Perhaps I forgot to tell you that my 8 iron has a 31 degree loft - tee hee.

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 28, 2011, 11:39:47 AM
Huh?  A 1* for a course thast too short, too easy and with boring greens?  You have a different issue than Scott.  He doesn't interpret well, but you have a selective reading disability.  These sorts of problems with reading tend to happen when one isn't as objective as he could be.
I suspect it's more a professional skill than a disability, learned from long years of advocacy.  
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on June 28, 2011, 02:39:29 PM
"Scott has already stated that he believes Silloth to be top 100 in the world.  To me this means Silloth is superior to Pennard, Brora, Portrush Valley and Castletown.  I don't buy that unless he thinks they are all top 100 as well.  Then of course we have to think about what gets tossed for all these courses!  Do you think Silloth is superior to the above courses?"

Sean

I've only played Brora (a number of times) out of those you mention but Silloth is easily much better. I've not played nearly enough courses round the world to state where it comes in the world list but if I had a choice I would play it ahead of Turnberry, Troon and a host of other courses north of the border. Basically its all you can ask for, challenging golf that is great fun with great variety.

Brora ? Well it has sheep...............eh, nice views ?

Niall
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 28, 2011, 05:05:25 PM
Niall

Thats fair enough then and in and of itself will explain the differences in our opinions on Silloth.  I would put Silloth in a dead heat with Brora in just about every way.   

I too would rather play Silloth over Turnberry, Troon and host of other courses north of the border.  The previous line is for Scott's benefit as it will be interesting to see how he interprets it.

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: James Boon on June 28, 2011, 06:44:08 PM
Very interesting and entertaining discussion on Silloth chaps! Fingers crossed all goes well for Buda there next year...

As an addition to some of Sean's party finding it tough... Having not played Silloth myself, last year when someone told me they were heading to the Lakes on a golf trip I told them they had to play Silloth off the back of some of your opinions. When I met this guy this year, he told me the course beat them all up! Narrow fairways, strong wind, heavy rough. I think I'll leave recommendations to courses I personally know well from now on  ;D

Cheers,

James
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 28, 2011, 08:02:02 PM
Sean:

Here's what you've had to say about Silloth over the course of two pages:

Quote
The 2nd: Perhaps this is the one weakness of the par 4s in general, many were driver wedge to eight iron.

Quote
The 11th: The hole turns hard right in a similar fashion to Wallasey's 8th and for the first time in the round requires something more than an 8 iron approach.

Quote
On the par five 5th: Yes, I hit a huge drive and an all time 8 iron on 5.  Piece of piss that hole.

Quote
Yes, Silloth has terrific greensites, but average greens.  Rye's are far more interesting once on them

Quote
I think the variety of 4s at Silloth is lacking a bit because there isn't a killer par 4 or two in the bunch.  There are a ton of shorties

Quote
#14 is just a whack it over the hill jobbie and there is an very good chance for birdie.  #17 is a feeder hole to the green making it fairly easy to reach in two without any real risk of penalty.

Quote
I wasn't striking the ball well and the front still played short

Quote
I like Silloth's 6th, but it too doesn't pose a real problem in having a very good chance at an up n' down so long as one stays left.

Those words are all yours, so forgive me for thinking you thought the course:

1. was too short - particularly on the fours,
2. was on the easy side, and
3. had bland green contours.

But of course we have established you played it from about 15 yards per hole behind the Ladies plates, so it's probably not surprising it was a bit short from there for a group of blokes, not to mention Tony, who is bloody long off the tee.

In your mind Silloth is a bit of a red-headed stepson like Brora and Co - a bit of a mongrel that has enough charm to win folks over, but not among the "purebred" links. For me it is a similar course in character to Deal, Baltray, North Berwick, Rye and Burnham. Certainly I believe it to be as great a test as any of them, as interesting as any of them and boasting as much variety as any of them. I hope that if you go back one day and play it from the men's tees you will agree. Certainly if you have it as 1* from just back of the Ladies' markers that's a promising start!

I can't say I found Silloth to be particularly narrow or the rough to be all that harsh, but looking at your pics it has been wetter of late than it was in the lead-up to my game late last April. GoogleMaps has the mown corridors at 48-55 yards for most of the course, which isn't narrow by British links standards.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 29, 2011, 01:02:41 AM
James,

If your mates thought the fairways were too narrow they could do with some lessons with the driver.  In a decent wind Silloth is as hard as nails but I don't think any reasonable player who has played much links golf would criticise the width of its fairways.  Good Lord, not even Sean and Tony have criticised that!
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 29, 2011, 02:09:32 AM
Scott

Below is the line I commented on. 

"So on one hand it's too short and too easy with boring greens..."

I didn't write these words in any of the posts you quoted.  I certainly don't think the course is too easy.  Scott, you played Silloth in April.  That is quite a difference to stepping on the tee in June  The fairly narrow fairways (talking about #s 4, 5, 7 and 8) which given the prevailing cross wind that if blew at 20mph would wreak havoc (Mark, there are several fairways which are narrow by any reasonable golfer's opnion) and this issue is worsened by what can only be described as very harsh rough; Silloth is anywhere near too easy.  I don't think the overall length of the course is too short either.  I wrote many of the par 4s played to similar short irons on the front nine and that there isn't a killer par 4 in the bunch.  While the course does not have anything like a killer par 4 (which I believe to be a weakness), my observation concerning the short 4s points to a shortcoming in the flow of the course.  Of course, with a few killer par 4s there would be less short par 4s.  Finally, the greens sites are varied and very interesting, particularly on the front nine and particlarly involving many of the short par 4s, but one couldn't say Silloth's greens are anything remotely exceptional.  There is minimal contour and slope for the most part so I guess thats about average.  This does not equate to boring, but it does mean they are less exciting than they could be.  I understand the issues of wind on links greens, but you must admit Silloth's are not a set to be particularly pointed out as a strength of the design.

I don't think of Brora as anything like a red-stepson.  I enjoy playing there practically as much as anywhere and for Silloth to be compared to Brora is no slap in the face.  I don't know what "test" means to you, but certainly I think Deal and Burnham overwhelm Silloth in terms of difficulty, but that isn't necessarily a positive charactersitic unless a course wants to swing both ways and be a members' course and a championship course - a feat very difficult to pull off which Deal does better than most championship links.  No for mine, Burnham, Rye and Deal top Silloth in terms of quality, but not in terms of where I would want to return to.   

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 29, 2011, 02:51:33 AM
Quote
I wrote many of the par 4s played to similar short irons on the front nine and that there isn't a killer par 4 in the bunch.

No killer par four? What do you call 415/398 uphill (7th), 411 (11th), 428/417 (15th) and 438/433 (18th)?

Played from the appropriate tees, the main complaint you have about Silloth is not a factor.

Did the club force you to play from the forward tees, or did you choose to play from there due to the higher handicappers in the group?
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 29, 2011, 03:04:22 AM
"On the par five 5th: Yes, I hit a huge drive and an all time 8 iron on 5.  Piece of piss that hole."

Scott, didn't you think this an odd statement.  Of all the things I wrote which you decided to quote, didn't the above strike you as incredulous and a probable downright lie - or perhaps even a joke?  I would like to see anybody hit driver 8 iron to #5. 

Maybe you are right that we played the wrong tees.  I am a big fan of forward tees and think courses should be primarily designed from this perspective.  I rarely have a problem identifying killer 4s from the yellows on courses of distinction.  Just down the road in Seascale they have two killer par 4s from the yellow tees at just over 6000 yards. 

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 29, 2011, 03:11:25 AM
So you weren't forced to play the front trees, you chose to?

The 13th and 14th are 450 and 462 from the yellows, but they call them par fives. There's your "killer fours from the front tees", if you'd only disregard par and just appraise the holes for what they present and not what's written on the scorecard.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 29, 2011, 03:33:07 AM
Scott

This is true and to boot the holes head in different directions which helps to mitigate the slog like feel of back to back par 5s.  However, "killer" not only refers to length, but quality.  For sure 13 is a hole of the highest order, but as I have said before 14 and 17 are wanting.  They aren't bad holes, but they don't really add anything to the design in how they fall on the card.  The issue is of flow and rhythm is for me further exposed as the front nine is loaded with shorty 4s and the back nine with par 5s.  I would like to see a better balance in how the holes flow.  Most of the character holes are on the front with the much of the distance (an extra 300-400 yards over the front) of the course coming on the back. 

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 29, 2011, 04:00:33 AM
I have to say mate, it seems you're just reaching for things to pick issue with.

The front nine has two par fours under 370 yards from the middle tees, and just one under 350. Your oft repeated claim that the front is "filled with shortie par fours" just doesn't stack up. Not at all.

What's your problem with 17? A borderline two/three shotter with a green that welcomes the ball, but angles front to back meaning it's hard to hold - must the same as the 1st at Woking in calling for a delicate touch on a brawny strike.

The back is par 37 and the front is 35, so it stands to reason that it is longer.

Deal is also much longer on the back nine. So what?
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 29, 2011, 04:47:48 AM
Scott

Your "reaching for things" is my objective criticism of a course I like very much and are the reasons I wouldn't place Silloth in my top 25 best courses.  There is nothing unusual in this opinion because I believe a great many folks who know more about architecture than myself don't place Silloth in their top 25 or we would see Silloth as a shoe in top 100 in the world.  Given this reality, what reasons do you think folks might have for not voting Silloth top 100 in the world?  Even on the Unofficial GCA Top 100 Silloth comes in at 116 and this is quite a forgiving group for the oddities of golf.  Interestingly,Pennard and Silloth have two of the highest SDs of the 225ish courses that had a shot at top 100 status!

"Middle tees" is a bit misleading.  Traditionally, there are championship tees, medal tees and daily tees if a course has three sets of men's tees.  The yellows are the daily tees no?  So, by my count there are six par 4s under 375 yards on the front nine from the daily tees which play at 6100+ yards.  That in and of itself isn't a problem except that many play to a similar yardage for the approach because the course generally heads out on the front.  You write its purely an issue of tee choice.  I say a course which hopes to claim distinction needs better yardage distribution from the daily tees (the main tees of the course).  If not, it points to an issue with the rhythm of the course.  As is well known, yes, I think Deal has an issue with its rhythm as well because there is so much bark coming late in the game.  However, Deal is much more of a championship course than Silloth and while not ideal, the hard graft has to come somewhere if it is to retain championship status.  

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on June 29, 2011, 05:09:40 AM
Quote
"Middle tees" is a bit misleading.  Traditionally, there are championship tees, medal tees and daily tees if a course has three sets of men's tees.  The yellows are the daily tees no?

No. They are not. Given you continue to dodge the question of whether you chose to play the yellow tees, I have to assume you did so as a matter of choice.

As I stated previously, we played the course at the tail of a major competition and the club was more than happy for us to play the same tees as the members, the whites.

You could have played the whites if you'd liked and you would have experienced the full course as well. You chose not to and that's your loss.

I just feel you're critiquing the course from a front tee when you had every opportunity to play further back where grown men with decent handicaps ought to be playing from.

Quote
You write its purely an issue of tee choice.  I say a course which hopes to claim distinction needs better yardage distribution from the daily tees (the main tees of the course).

It does. You'll note the yardages in the white column of the scorecard I posted on page 1.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on June 29, 2011, 05:37:38 AM
Scott

To be honest, I don't recall any instructions from the kid behind the counter.  I know I didn't ask if we could move back, but then I also knew we had two guys with 40+ "handicaps" and plenty of others who find 6100 yards enough challenge (count me as one of those folks) given the rough.   

Set me straight.  Are the yellow or white tees the main tees of the course?  It sounds like white is the competition tees - is this not the case?  Perhaps the yellows are senior/junior tees?  However, I did see a well forward set (black?) which I assumed were the senior/junior tees.

Question, why are the white tees the full course, but not the back tees?  Did you lose anything by not going all the way back?  Its all relative my friend. 

There is no need for feelings, yes, I did critique the course from what I thought were the daily tees, as I do all courses with very few exceptions..."in praise of yellow tees". 

Ciao
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on June 29, 2011, 12:43:43 PM
So you weren't forced to play the front trees, you chose to?

The 13th and 14th are 450 and 462 from the yellows, but they call them par fives. There's your "killer fours from the front tees", if you'd only disregard par and just appraise the holes for what they present and not what's written on the scorecard.

Scott

Forget yardage, its a links after all. On 13, you only go for the green if you are in position A with your drive and even then you think twice about that even in a bounce match. In other words it takes two top notch shots to get on. I can tell you that in all the years I played it I maybe managed it couple of times.

The 14th on the other hand is eminently reachable provided you get a half decent drive away which is easier said than done on a roller coaster fairway. Provided your sitting nicely you can have a go as a miss isn't badly punished. A true great blind shot where you climb the hill to seehow close you are.

Niall
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: James Boon on June 30, 2011, 04:05:37 AM
James,

If your mates thought the fairways were too narrow they could do with some lessons with the driver.  In a decent wind Silloth is as hard as nails but I don't think any reasonable player who has played much links golf would criticise the width of its fairways.  Good Lord, not even Sean and Tony have criticised that!

Mark,

On further digging when I met him this year, it turns out most of the group haven't played links before and are all high teens upwards handicaps. It remains to be seen if I've turned them off the glory of links golf totally, but I know many inland lovers who aren't fans of links golf who've probably had a similar one off experience...  Philistines!  ;D

Cheers,

James
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Martin Toal on June 30, 2011, 12:03:48 PM
Interesting discussion between the protagonists above.

I was a member at Silloth for a few years while living in Carlisle. Needless to say the course varies a great deal with the changing weather but I always considered it to have a coherent identity and character. That was one of quirkiness and charm, with a few whimsical features thrown in, but always playable and enjoyable. I don't remember the fairways being especially narrow. 

I have played the par 3 9th with a hands and arms wedge one day and with a 4 iron another. Likewise the back to back par 5s 13 and 14, have played as driver, 3 wood and 4 iron one way and 3 wood, 7 iron the other way.

Great course, friendly members and worth every penny.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Saltzman on August 18, 2018, 03:58:09 PM
Sean, have you returned to Silloth since 2011? If so, has your opinion changed at all?


It’s remarkable how much effect wind can have on one’s thoughts on the course. I cannot fathom playing the 5th with a driver, 8 iron. Today I hit driver, 3 wood, 3 hybrid to the back edge.


I would love to have hit 8 iron several times on the front 9, but even the 300 yard 2nd played as a driver and 6 iron (from 110 yards)... for reference, my typical 6 iron is from 170 yards.


I absolutely loved the golf course. It is certainly among my favourite I have ever played and I think a candidate for world top 100. While it doesn’t have the history of Prestwick, I think it the better course.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Pearce on August 19, 2018, 04:25:02 AM
I absolutely loved the golf course. It is certainly among my favourite I have ever played and I think a candidate for world top 100. While it doesn’t have the history of Prestwick, I think it the better course.
Wow, that's a brave call.  But I can see arguments in favour of that position.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on August 19, 2018, 04:45:12 AM
Sean, have you returned to Silloth since 2011? If so, has your opinion changed at all?

I absolutely loved the golf course. It is certainly among my favourite I have ever played and I think a candidate for world top 100. While it doesn’t have the history of Prestwick, I think it the better course.

I like Silloth a load as well...it comfortably makes my favourite 50, but I didn't fall in love with the place.  Though I am not convinced it is a great course.  I need to return, but can't bear to without at least a few other chaps in tow.  Its a long way with such a dire town as a greeting!  It would be great if Silloth was a hit and runner, but thats difficult given the location.

Ciao   
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on August 19, 2018, 05:25:52 AM
My one experience of Silloth last year was enough to place it in my mind at least the equal of the likes of Formby, Alwoodley, Ganton, and Notts.


I too would love to return - let me know Sean, and you can pick me up on the way!
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Scott Warren on August 19, 2018, 05:36:10 AM
Mark,


It seems a big call, and probably is, but not that far-fetched when so many people on this site happily proclaim St Enodoc as World Top 100 without much opposition to the claim.


Sean,


When you’re planning that return visit, be sure to call ahead and make sure they’ll let you play the men’s tees this time! 😁
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on August 19, 2018, 06:14:53 AM


Sean,


When you’re planning that return visit, be sure to call ahead and make sure they’ll let you play the men’s tees this time! 😁


I'm with Sean on this one. Niall, FBD, and myself played Silloth off the yellows in the company of a +5 handicapper, who has previously played the course off the very back tees in Open qualifying and other events.


He certainly didn't feel the course was minimised in any way by playing the regular tees.


His driver, driver to 10ft on the 13th into the wind will linger in the memory...  ;)
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Thomas Dai on August 19, 2018, 06:17:52 AM
It seems a big call, and probably is, but not that far-fetched when so many people on this site happily proclaim St Enodoc as World Top 100 without much opposition to the claim.


I for one would oppose the claim. Great 12-hole course though and exceptionally photogenic. As to the remaining holes there's one hole that could be great but in the prevailing circumstances is dangerous, a couple of others that are okay, one that's a repeat of a hole that already exists on the front-9, one with an unusual green and one that's a real duffer.
There I've said it!
May I suggest the next time your at St E go and play the first-3 and last-6 holes on their other course, the High Course, and see the terrain that could be used instead (and once apparently was).
There, the blue touch paper has been lit. Time now to retire to the place where children watch Dr Who, ie behind the sofa! :)
atb


PS - Silloth is nice. Think I prefer Southernness though! :) :)
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on August 19, 2018, 07:44:33 AM
Dai

Go and sit in the corner and write out "Silloth is much better than Southerness and Prestwick" one hundred times. Once you've done that I'll let you graduate to the big boys class  ;D

Mark

I really don't see it being that big a call to say Silloth is better than Prestwick. The best bits of Prestwick are very very good, as are Silloths but at Prestwick the far end of the course over the burn the holes are pedestrian in comparison, whereas at Silloth you don't really have that drop in standard.

Sean

I'd also be up for a Silloth visit. If you want to couple it with another course I'd suggest Carlisle and then you can spend the night in Carlisle sampling the delights of Botchergate ! I can't recall off hand the history of Carlisle GC but I think it has a touch of Penink in it. Even though you would probably call it parkland it has a touch of moorland/heathland feel to it. Well worth a play.

Mark S

Back in my days as a member I played the 5th with a driver 9 iron/8 iron a number of times, it just depends on the run and the wind and getting the right line off the tee. Mind you that was to the old green which was slightly shorter and to the left side. I've only played the new green a couple of times and I'm not sure I'd be going for the green in two even if it was reachable.

Niall
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on August 19, 2018, 07:54:02 AM
Re Carlisle - just checked the website, the initial layout was by Dr MacK's brother Charles, followed by Theodore Moon and MacKenzie Ross redesign in 1940's. No mention of Pennink.

Niall
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Keith Phillips on August 19, 2018, 09:26:02 AM
My group of 15 played Silloth last week on a trip which also included Formby, Wallasey, S&A, West Lancs and the three Royals in the area.  I enjoyed Silloth but my view was very much in the minority.  Ours was a group of 8-22 handicappers and, unfortunately, the worst weather of our trip was at Silloth.  4-club wind and driving rain on the first tee...after seeing the first two tee shots the Pro ran out of the shop to insist we move from the whites to the yellows...a very wise decision!  The rain let up but the strong wind remained.  With our (in)abilities and the conditions, only one of us hit the fairway on 1 and the rough was indeed long and punishing.  There were no caddies available (members/artisans carried at all the others) so it was a struggle to discern direction off the tee and it was doubly difficult to find wayward balls.  An additional drawback for our group was the long drive from our Southport base vs. all the other courses.  To me it was obvious that Silloth has great bones but it wasn't a very pleasant day given the conditions.  Given the remote location (vs. say Prestwick and North Berwick) I'm not sure I'll make a return trip.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Saltzman on August 19, 2018, 10:56:07 AM
I can’t see Southerness ahead of Silloth, not a chance. Only if one does not enjoy the quirk and uniqueness of Silloth and prefers the more traditional golf of Southerness.
Title: Re: A CUMBRIAN COUPLET: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Pearce on August 19, 2018, 02:57:54 PM
Sean,


I'm always up for a trip to Silloth.
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Ed Tilley on August 26, 2018, 08:31:55 AM
I played Silloth yesterday for the first time in 12 years. Weather was great and course was in fantastic condition - fast and firm with reasonable rough and the heather in bloom. A wonderful course.


We had to give all our details for insurance purposes as they have real problems with houses close to oob on 17, 18, and particularly 11. The pro said it is so bad that plans are in place for new holes.


There will be a new tee behind the 9th green and a new 10 hole doglegging left to a green back from the current 10th green. 11 will become a par 3 with the green site where it currently is but remodelled. 12 would become a par 4 as the club owns a fair amount of land in the gorse behind the current 12th green.


I’m not sure how likely these changes are or how soon they may come but the pro was very positive about them.
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Saltzman on August 26, 2018, 09:15:07 AM
Is the issue with the tee shot on 11? Perhaps that would explain the placement of the directional post... I hit a drive right over it, only to find my ball in the tall grass left of the fairway.
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Ed Tilley on August 26, 2018, 09:26:56 AM
Is the issue with the tee shot on 11? Perhaps that would explain the placement of the directional post... I hit a drive right over it, only to find my ball in the tall grass left of the fairway.


There are caravans on the corner of the dogleg to the right. A big slice - 20 yards right - will go into the caravan park. Ridiculous really that the caravans were put there well after the course was built and when there are fields all around that aren’t in the “firing line”.
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Sean_A on August 26, 2018, 07:10:57 PM
So, that field should have very limited development possibilities because it is next to a golf course? Should the club then pay a yearly fee to the owner for devaluing their land?

I fail to understand why golfers think it is okay to spray balls into neighbouring properties. No, golf clubs need to learn how to be good neighbours even if it requires altering courses.

Ciao
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on August 27, 2018, 02:12:39 AM
Ed,


Who is the architect for the changes?.... Never been to Silloth.


Ally
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Mark Pearce on August 27, 2018, 03:23:52 AM
Thy have had problems with 11 for years.  I believe the current hole was moved left, making it more of a dogleg, whereas previously you played more over the shoulder on the right.  It would be a shame to lose 17 or 18 as they currently are.  12 changing might not be a bad thing, it's a good hole but pretty much the same hole as 16 anyway!  I'm surprised to hear that either 17 or 18 is a problem.
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Ed Tilley on August 27, 2018, 04:10:16 AM
So, that field should have very limited development possibilities because it is next to a golf course? Should the club then pay a yearly fee to the owner for devaluing their land?

I fail to understand why golfers think it is okay to spray balls into neighbouring properties. No, golf clubs need to learn how to be good neighbours even if it requires altering courses.

Ciao


If you look at the caravan park development it is ridiculous where it was built - or more accurately where the caravans were placed - given the abundance of land around it. Many places have limited development possibilities precisely because of what is around it.


Extending your logic, if I buy a field next to the existing M4 motorway, can I claim compensation from the Highways Agency for devaluing my land? Or build a house 10 yards from the motorway and get the road rerouted because the noise and pollution is intolerable?
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Ed Tilley on August 27, 2018, 04:28:14 AM
Ed,


Who is the architect for the changes?.... Never been to Silloth.


Ally


Mackenzie apparently
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Paul Nash on August 27, 2018, 04:45:20 AM
they did the same at North Hants. The golf club sold some land to enable a huge housing estate. Then they built right next to the end of the course and forced the club to change a par 3. With a multi-thousand house development this was easily avoidable!
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on August 27, 2018, 07:25:51 AM
Ed

Sean is absolutely correct. Whatever you use your land for you should have the right to enjoy it peacefully without golf balls landing on your head. What's more that's the legal view so the ridiculous position would be to ignore the law.

The other thing to maybe consider is that when this hole was built and the caravan park was built, it might not have been in range from the tee anyway so perhaps it wasn't a consideration ? Whatever the truth in that suggestion, their has been concern about this hole for decades. I first played the course when it was the old hole (25-30 years ago ?) and it was straighter and less left to right. I only have a very vague memory of it but the mound to the right, which I think has been reshaped to shift it right, was less pronounced and bang in the middle of the fairway such that the ball would tend to slip off either side.

The initial change was to make it a left to right dogleg. They subsequently brought the OB in so that balls landing hard on the mound could easily get a hard kick OB. Members were well aware of that and tended to play left side of fairway.

Re proposed new 10th. It was never a great hole but it was a tricky one. For as long as I was a member their was talk of buying the field beyond to extend the hole and I vaguely recall that was Dr MacK's thoughts back in the day also. That talk seemed to go away once they rebuilt the current green in the early 2000's. There was also the suggestion then of putting a tee in on the first dune ridge to the right and rear of the 9th green. It would have made the 10th a straighter and better hole but also a much more dangerous one. At the moment it's a sharp dog-leg left with OB (public footpath) beyond the landing area for the drive. In all my time as a member down there I never saw anyone go OB That wouldn't be the case with the new tee hence presumably the idea to move the green ?

The only problem with moving the green is it's my understanding their is an old Roman fort up in that area to the left of the dog-left of the fairway which presumably they would need to circumvent ? It all seems like a lot of work to resolve any issues with the 11th. 

Niall
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on August 27, 2018, 07:33:19 AM
Thy have had problems with 11 for years.  I believe the current hole was moved left, making it more of a dogleg, whereas previously you played more over the shoulder on the right.  It would be a shame to lose 17 or 18 as they currently are.  12 changing might not be a bad thing, it's a good hole but pretty much the same hole as 16 anyway!  I'm surprised to hear that either 17 or 18 is a problem.

Mark

I have to disagree on 12th. It's a very fine hole and possibly the best of the par 3's. It's also not really like 16 which is a very definite plateau green that is much smaller and once you're on it's fairly straightforward putt. Possibly the worst hole on the course. The 12th in contrast requires different shots depending on what side the pin is. The green is also larger and has a definite fault line up the middle making it difficult if you are on the wrong side.

Niall
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on August 27, 2018, 07:36:44 AM
Ed,


Who is the architect for the changes?.... Never been to Silloth.


Ally

Ally

Tom MacKenzie did the redesign of the 6th green a number of years ago. It's not a bad green in itself although it has changed the dynamic of the hole, and not for the better in my view but then I've only played the new green a few times.

Niall
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Ben Stephens on August 28, 2018, 01:42:26 PM
I played Silloth yesterday for the first time in 12 years. Weather was great and course was in fantastic condition - fast and firm with reasonable rough and the heather in bloom. A wonderful course.


We had to give all our details for insurance purposes as they have real problems with houses close to oob on 17, 18, and particularly 11. The pro said it is so bad that plans are in place for new holes.


There will be a new tee behind the 9th green and a new 10 hole doglegging left to a green back from the current 10th green. 11 will become a par 3 with the green site where it currently is but remodelled. 12 would become a par 4 as the club owns a fair amount of land in the gorse behind the current 12th green.


I’m not sure how likely these changes are or how soon they may come but the pro was very positive about them.


I have done a sketch based on your comments - can you confirm if it is what they are going with?


Holes 10-11-12


(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/Silloth%2010-11-12.jpg) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/bsdesign/media/Silloth%2010-11-12.jpg.html)


I have done a sketch which is more controversial Holes 1-17-18


(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/Silloth%20117-18.jpg) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/bsdesign/media/Silloth%20117-18.jpg.html)
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on August 29, 2018, 08:13:27 AM
Ben

Good stuff.

I think your sketch of the 10th-12th shows the issues with the redesign of the 10th. Your first option shows how easy it would be to slice it OB which would be replacing one danger with another, while the second option takes care of that but perhaps brings the 13th green into play. It also goes over where I think the Roman fort is located. How long are the holes and how far to the dog-leg on the 10th ?

The new 11th and 12th could work well although they might need to shift a fair bit of dirt on the 12th.

Niall
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on August 29, 2018, 08:32:45 AM
Ben

Have you played Silloth ?

Re new 17th keep the drive and play to the new green. It's only the approach shot that is an issue.

The new 18th could work well however not sure the change in the 1st is worth it to accommodate it. Where you site the new tees sits on top of a ridge and was/is sometimes used for the winter tee. From there you probably could play to the practice ground OK but that practice ground is devoid of character having been largely bulldozed at some point to create a large flat rectangular area. You'd need to do a fair bit of shaping to make it interesting I'd have thought.

From there your new second tee sits right behind the existing tee that sits up on ridge, and therefore the new tee would be unsighted unless you built it up greatly. You could move it nearer to the existing first fairway where there is a ridge that runs up the side but that might make it closer to line of play off the new 18th tee. I also tend to think the 2nd doesn't need the extra distance. The hole is all about the approach shot and it has a decent enough carry off the existing tee anyway.

All in all I think moving the 17th green as you suggest is the only change I'd vote for but then I'm maybe more conservative in these things than a lot of people. The new tee and reshaping of the start of the fairway on the 18th (the last 5-10 years ?) has largely resolved the issue of balls going OB as far as I'm aware but could be wrong.

Niall
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Ben Stephens on August 29, 2018, 08:44:18 AM
Ben

Have you played Silloth ?

Re new 17th keep the drive and play to the new green. It's only the approach shot that is an issue.

The new 18th could work well however not sure the change in the 1st is worth it to accommodate it. Where you site the new tees sits on top of a ridge and was/is sometimes used for the winter tee. From there you probably could play to the practice ground OK but that practice ground is devoid of character having been largely bulldozed at some point to create a large flat rectangular area. You'd need to do a fair bit of shaping to make it interesting I'd have thought.

From there your new second tee sits right behind the existing tee that sits up on ridge, and therefore the new tee would be unsighted unless you built it up greatly. You could move it nearer to the existing first fairway where there is a ridge that runs up the side but that might make it closer to line of play off the new 18th tee. I also tend to think the 2nd doesn't need the extra distance. The hole is all about the approach shot and it has a decent enough carry off the existing tee anyway.

All in all I think moving the 17th green as you suggest is the only change I'd vote for but then I'm maybe more conservative in these things than a lot of people. The new tee and reshaping of the start of the fairway on the 18th (the last 5-10 years ?) has largely resolved the issue of balls going OB as far as I'm aware but could be wrong.

Niall

Yes I have played Silloth many times when BUDA was there and I nearly killed Mark Pearce with a pretty radar accurate missile on the 3rd. Its a cracking course and if it was closer to a main city it certainly would be a lot higher in the golf rankings


The 1st 17th and 18th exercise is more of out the box approach. Maybe the club should start planting trees at the boundaries to infuriate the residents by obscuring their views but say its vital for safety reasons  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Ben Stephens on August 29, 2018, 08:46:43 AM
Ben

Good stuff.

I think your sketch of the 10th-12th shows the issues with the redesign of the 10th. Your first option shows how easy it would be to slice it OB which would be replacing one danger with another, while the second option takes care of that but perhaps brings the 13th green into play. It also goes over where I think the Roman fort is located. How long are the holes and how far to the dog-leg on the 10th ?

The new 11th and 12th could work well although they might need to shift a fair bit of dirt on the 12th.

Niall

Niall,

I was hoping to get a response from you re the 10-11-12 holes. Yes a fair bit of dirt to be moved around and if done right will look great.

From Google Earth Pro the new 10th would be 330-360 ish to what I have drawn.

New 11th would be 160-185 yards and 12th - 370-450 yards wish

Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Niall C on August 29, 2018, 02:02:28 PM
Yes of course BUDA. It was me you nearly hit on the 3rd ! It was just Mark who had words with you after  ;D

Re 10th - you may recall on the 13th that the approach sat on top of a dune ridge, and that the ridge extended beyond the 13th green towards the existing 10th green, meaning that the drives for the new 10th would land in the face of that ridge leaving a (totally ?) blind approach. Not ideal, as Silloth already has 3 totally blind approaches.

Niall
Title: Re: A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC
Post by: Ben Stephens on August 30, 2018, 05:47:05 AM
Yes of course BUDA. It was me you nearly hit on the 3rd ! It was just Mark who had words with you after  ;D

Re 10th - you may recall on the 13th that the approach sat on top of a dune ridge, and that the ridge extended beyond the 13th green towards the existing 10th green, meaning that the drives for the new 10th would land in the face of that ridge leaving a (totally ?) blind approach. Not ideal, as Silloth already has 3 totally blind approaches.

Niall


Well in my defence the tee shot was blind and no bell?! Mark went crazy and I made it up on the 2nd at Perranporth to allow Mark to hit a pretty short iron to the par 5 2nd green. Maybe next time I need to bring a couple of hard hats from work to protect my fellow BUDAites from certain missiles next time  ;D ;D


I remember the 7th green approach was also blind. It was so much fun when we played there and the wind switched around on both days.


Will be interesting to see what M+E proposals are