News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2023, 06:22:56 PM »
Although I love both courses Bedford Springs and Ballyhack need dishonorable mention here.


Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2023, 01:57:35 AM »

Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?
IMO yes. What is the issue with it?  A huge fairway opening tee shot that doesn't require driver is rather welcome. It is a blind approach, but a very large green. I rather like the opener.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdgXgqAkYZ8
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2023, 03:16:37 AM »
Although I love both courses Bedford Springs and Ballyhack need dishonorable mention here.

Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?

WTF? I took you as a man with soul.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2023, 08:30:14 AM »
Although I love both courses Bedford Springs and Ballyhack need dishonorable mention here.

Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?



WTF? I took you as a man with soul.

Ciao




Ouch.




I love North Berwick but it came to mind as I mentioned both Bedford Springs and Ballyhack, holes where the really only prudent drive is to start the day with a layup, followed by a blind uphill approach with lots of danger all around.   Not wanting to be hypocritical, I recalled that our friend North Berwick featured a similar style hole, which is why I asked (mostly myself, rhetorically) if it was blasphemy to include NB. 


I think it falls a bit into the category of someone who asked what if Cypress Point started with the 16th hole.   I'd love any of the holes mentioned here as a one-off somewhere deeper in the round but as a starter a forced layup is less than ideal, in my opinion.   Just trying to be intellectually honest and consistent, I guess.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2023, 08:42:48 AM »
Although I love both courses Bedford Springs and Ballyhack need dishonorable mention here.

Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?



WTF? I took you as a man with soul.

Ciao

Ouch.

I love North Berwick but it came to mind as I mentioned both Bedford Springs and Ballyhack, holes where the really only prudent drive is to start the day with a layup, followed by a blind uphill approach with lots of danger all around.   Not wanting to be hypocritical, I recalled that our friend North Berwick featured a similar style hole, which is why I asked (mostly myself, rhetorically) if it was blasphemy to include NB. 

I think it falls a bit into the category of someone who asked what if Cypress Point started with the 16th hole.   I'd love any of the holes mentioned here as a one-off somewhere deeper in the round but as a starter a forced layup is less than ideal, in my opinion.   Just trying to be intellectually honest and consistent, I guess.

Sorry, I thought I included a smiley face.

In any case, I think the opener is a goodun. Play safe left and go blind on the second, play near the beach for a view of the flag or blast one up there. I saw a guy reach the green with a 4 wood! Some guys are long enough. Plus, it's a pretty hole. That said I wonder if it would be better as a par 3?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2023, 09:09:40 AM »
Sean,


Understood, thanks.


Believe me, there is no place I'd rather be than on the first tee at North Berwick at this very moment.  ;D
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2023, 01:06:02 PM »

Anthony,


 You must've played with Matt Kerens. He's since become our head Super. Unfortunately, no "original" AWT plans exist or existed. We had both George Bahto and Phil Young do all the research possible before the restoration.


  The road was indeed there back in the day. It was originally a dirt road that served primarily as a horse & buggy supply road. Over the years, its turned into a major north-south automobile artery and the part that dissects 7 holes from the other 11 is a high speed arc.

I very much enjoyed my round with Matt. He seemed totally in sync with Jim Urbina's vision for the course, which I'm sure is part of the reason why the work turned out so well.


To your point about the traffic Steve, minimum speed through the golf course appeared to be about 40mph... and no-one stops for you either.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 01:10:59 PM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2023, 01:30:09 PM »
Although I love both courses Bedford Springs and Ballyhack need dishonorable mention here.


Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?


Mike,


Have you played the course at Hidden Valley (PA)? I have a vague memory that the 1st was a dogleg where you had to layup short of water and then play the second over the water which ran to the edge of the front of the green. Very awkward opening hole.


Ira


PS Yes, it is blasphemous re NB. A perfect introduction to the character of the course.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2023, 05:20:36 PM »
Ira,


There are actually 2 "Hidden Valley"'s in PA.  I've played half of them.  :)


Seriously, suspect you played the one in Western PA?   I played the one in Eastern PA.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2023, 07:08:39 PM »
Ira,


There are actually 2 "Hidden Valley"'s in PA.  I've played half of them.  :)


Seriously, suspect you played the one in Western PA?   I played the one in Eastern PA.


Yes, Western. Really bad opening hole, but rest of course quite scenic. It was a long time ago though.


Ira

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2023, 07:54:03 PM »
Ira,


p.s. I feel that my mention of North Berwick on this thread might deserve a "Game of Thrones" Circe-like walk of shame through the virtual mean streets of GCAville.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2023, 08:55:15 PM »
Ira,


p.s. I feel that my mention of North Berwick on this thread might deserve a "Game of Thrones" Circe-like walk of shame through the virtual mean streets of GCAville.

At the very least its gotta be a party-foul.   ;D  What's not to like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYu_lEERUIU

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2023, 09:00:42 PM »

At the very least its gotta be a party-foul.   ;D  What's not to like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYu_lEERUIU


Can we at least get JohnK to play the role of High Sparrow?


I haven't seen him since a wonderful day at Swope Park but in a perfect world I can do the perp walk along the mine tailings at Victoria National.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 09:02:39 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ben Malach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2023, 10:10:52 AM »
The worst opening hole of all time has to be the current first at Shagganpi Point in my hometown of Calgary. It was once the site of a pretty solid Tom Bendalow course, but that was removed to build 27 holes ranging from architectural malpractice to questionably bland.


The first hole here typifies the quality of the golf course a 243 y par 4 downhill to a peninsula green in a created pond with OB left and long.  The clever play is to lay up with a short iron to hit a wedge, but due to poor drainage, the lay-up area is always wet so its best to miss the fairway to the right and hit the shot from the rough as the extra grass helps hide the poor ground conditions.


Going for it is death as the green is always a little firmer than the rest of the golf course. So you need a tour flight long iron of FW wood to hold the green as they didn't add a bunker or catchment feature to hold the ball on the peninsula.


This course is yet another one of our historical Canadian courses that was lost to the pursuit of progress.
@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2023, 01:01:17 PM »
I will get jumped, but I don't like the first hole at Oakmont. It is more than a slap in the face; it is a kick in the gut.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2023, 02:42:09 PM »
I will get jumped, but I don't like the first hole at Oakmont. It is more than a slap in the face; it is a kick in the gut.


Tom-When did difficulty become the barometer of what makes a quality golf hole? I have to respectfully disagree.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2023, 02:48:35 PM »
I will get jumped, but I don't like the first hole at Oakmont. It is more than a slap in the face; it is a kick in the gut.

Tom-When did difficulty become the barometer of what makes a quality golf hole? I have to respectfully disagree.


Tim,

Couldn't agree more, and I think this thread struggled due to this.  As a high capper, I find many holes "difficult", but very very few of them are awful.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2023, 02:52:19 PM »
I will get jumped, but I don't like the first hole at Oakmont. It is more than a slap in the face; it is a kick in the gut.


Tom-When did difficulty become the barometer of what makes a quality golf hole? I have to respectfully disagree.


I agree. Many first holes are difficult, which I like. One at Oakmont, though, belongs later in the round.

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2023, 12:20:32 AM »
I will get jumped, but I don't like the first hole at Oakmont. It is more than a slap in the face; it is a kick in the gut.


Getting slapped in the face is the perfect opener for Oakmont.  At least as you walk across the bridge to #2 you know what to expect 17 more times.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2023, 12:26:07 AM »
It also helps pace of play with the drivable 2nd.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2023, 01:35:09 AM »
No naked Cirba on a walk of shame. That's the stuff of scorched retinas.

No changing any par-four opener to a par three, Sean.

It's a long valley, despite being hidden. It extends the entire width of the commonwealth. There may be a third, Hidden Valley, in the middle, but no one has found it yet...

My memory of Paramount is clouded by the shutdown of my camera on the first fairway. I lost any chance at images of the course. I think I spent the entire, alpine trek worried more about that than the actual nature of the summiting of Mount Tillie.

Orchard Park Country Club, near Buffalo, is a Travis design. Its opening hole has something I despise: rough on the descent to the lower fairway. If a golfer is long enough to reach the lower fairway, don't protect some imagined honor by hanging her/him/them up in rough on the downslope. Also, they purportedly leveled the green five years ago, as it canted from back to front quite severely. Not sure who took money for the work, but the green is still too severe to allow for more than a trio of pin positions. Oh, and there is a creek in front of the elevated green, along with a hill behind, so club precisely!

Combined with the claustrophobic second hole (railroad tracks left, unnecessary trees right) it's the worst opening stretch of a good course in the area. OPCC does not have a history of making good architectural decisions. They butchered their Travis layout by bringing in Brian Ault to create a practice facility near the clubhouse. Lost were 17 and 18, and don't get me started on the Florida holes that were dropped into the interior of the course. OPCC has some marvelous WJT holes, and Ian Andrew has worked diligently to return many of The Old Man's brilliance to what remains (1-4, 7-12, 14-16) of his original work.

Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2023, 09:50:02 AM »
There is a similar thread back in 2020, The Worst First Hole, https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=68556.0


I would say Ballyhack no. 1. It is a forced carry and very uphill. You could make no. 1 into a par 3 but people don't like par 3 first holes.


Since it is a cart course, I would have no. 1 hole be the current no. 2, par five starter. It would have meant 10 holes on the other side of the road with the extra hole up on the hill by no. 12.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2023, 01:57:12 PM »
Ballyhack 1 became much more likeable after repeated plays. Very demanding on the first couple of plays for sure. The key to the hole is comfort that the fairway really is that wide to the left and also making sure that you hit enough club to get up on the back half of the green and use the backstop. Declaring the "Breakfast or Lunch Ball" in play on the tee doesn't hurt either.


Also, I like Bedford 1 as well. Other lay-up 1st holes that work for me are West Shore CC in Camp Hill, PA and Williamsport CC.


Wren Dale/Hershey Links (NLE - Hurdzan/Fry) had an architecturally bad 1st hole. Would have been better as the 10th but still not a particularly good hole. Blind lay-up with lost ball gunch straight, right and left. If you stayed out of the gunch and just got in the primary rough left you couldn't make the forced carry to the next section of fairway as the hole turned right. Many rounds started with a slight miss left followed by a wedge lay up short of the ravine and then trying to hit 220 or so up hill onto the green. If you tried the forced carry of 180 or so uphill it was very questionable that you could get it across and then you were hitting 4 over the ravine instead of 3 with the layup.

Jon Claydon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2023, 02:20:38 PM »
i take issue with the entire premise because standing on the first tee of any golf course means i have 18 holes of golf ahead of me, which is preferable to any other way to spend time.


JC

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Truly Awful Opening Holes
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2023, 12:53:34 PM »
The first hole at Hanging Rock GC fits this bill the most of any I've played.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back