Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: ward peyronnin on March 21, 2023, 01:30:18 PM
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If some of you deem starting a topic based on negativity please indulge me. Wouldn't truly stumbling on an opening preage an designers grasp of his project and of design altogether? And then color an assesment of the work or site that follow?
Opening holes set a tone: offer the handshake whether gentle or tough: make the first impression of what is to come and much more. They are important, almost as important as the finish.
So I ask what is a truly terrible opening hole that you out there can adequately describe and assess?
The opener at Secession immediately stands out. One stands on a tee fronted by a marsh(borrow) pond of considerable length and breadth. The green sets on the far right corner and presents as a dog leg with the normal players approach from the ribbon of fairway directly ahead. The lefthand border of the course commences off the corner of the tee as a combination carpath/causeway/dike sealing the hole from the sea and is probably 150 yds long. To me it is simply Dali-esque appearing; totally forced, and severely penal in the standard whipping wind. Don't know how a woman or child can play the hole as designed. Butt that is kind of the vibe of the place truth be known.
The other dreadful beginning I think of is at Old Stone in KY. It is a 90 degree dogleg left. One hits to the bend over a deep gulch that guards the the left side of the hole and snakes along the inside bend and then turns back in front of the green. This green is a volcano green perched on an egg shaped top of small tall dome that rises 50 feet above the facing gulch and nearly as much on its sorrounding sides; most recovery shots from anywhere are blue sky haill Marys. Impossible to hold with any kind of crosswind. If one chooses the wrong angle off the tee out of bounds awaits the over hit or sliced tee ball and ob continues all along the right of the hole to the green. Not as artificial and imposed as Secessions but still a goofy incorporation of severe features all in one hole and the opener. Full disclosure I made an eleven to start one round; try recovering your joy after that.
Neither of these courses, although admired in some quarters, then go on to fall far short of my criteria for a worthy design after these initial missteps alas.
Anybody else want to vent?
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Ardsley CC-340ish par 4 with tee shot blind over a hill that drops significantly to landing area below. The right side up and through the green from about 150 out is flanked by a pond which bleeds into the fairway making the tee shot a forced layup. I remember hitting 5 iron off the tee and 8 iron on the approach. There is too much risk to swing away off the tee so you are handcuffed on the first swing. It’s a shame because there are a lot of good holes that follow.
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Ward--
The inclusion of Secession #1 in your post fascinates me. I have liked the hole and have had success on it the handful of times I've played, potentially due to mostly mild winds when I've been there.
I wonder if Secession #1 might have particularly strong lefty-righty splits in terms of performance and overall impression. I've personally always felt relatively comfortable over that tee shot because I know that a slight pull or slight to moderate push/block off the tee will still result in a fairway hit and a relatively short approach. The right-handed golfer is staring that expanse of interior wetlands straight in the face, knowing both that any sort of miss right has no hope, and that a pull could run through the fairway into marsh, too. I can definitely understand seeing it as very penal. That said, I do think it is a fitting start in that it introduces several of the course's aesthetic themes.
To me, the least forgivable opening holes are the ones that are boring or a clear afterthought, meant to just launch golfers away from the clubhouse relatively efficiently. I'd rather be offended by an opening hole than completely unmoved by it. An architect has only 18 chances to impress the golfer; conceding one - let alone the first one - is a grave sin, IMO (I'm a little more sympathetic if the course doesn't have a driving range).
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I'll go with Walton Heath New, which is a par 3 with road on your right. Long is in a yard. Only hole on that side of the road as well. Always out of place IMO.
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This one has been replaced. Glaze Meadow, which is at Black Butte Resort in central Oregon. Double dogleg par 5, most likely played with fairway wood, mid-iron, mid-iron.
Pretty sure John VDB is with me on this one. (He thought it was 6-i, 9-i,9-i).
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Ardsley CC-340ish par 4 with tee shot blind over a hill that drops significantly to landing area below. The right side up and through the green from about 150 out is flanked by a pond which bleeds into the fairway making the tee shot a forced layup. I remember hitting 5 iron off the tee and 8 iron on the approach. There is too much risk to swing away off the tee so you are handcuffed on the first swing. It’s a shame because there are a lot of good holes that follow.
a perennial
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The three worst that come to mind in no particular order or time for descriptions but consider yourself forewarned.
Mount Airy Lodge (PA)
PGA National (Fazio) (FL)
Eagles Crossing (PA)
Came across another doozy recently that I can't quite recall but perhaps Joe Bausch does.
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I'll go with Walton Heath New, which is a par 3 with road on your right. Long is in a yard. Only hole on that side of the road as well. Always out of place IMO.
Old?
North Wales has a poor opener legging left adjacent to housing protected by a fence.
West Hill's opener with blind water at the bottom of a sharp downslope isn't one that earns any stars.
Addington's uphill short hole is not an opener which sets a good tone.
Ciao
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I'll go with Tilden Park in Berkeley, CA. The first hole is a par 4 that goes straight up a hill, requiring the approach shot, which I have to play with a mid to long iron, to be played from a severe uphill lie. Combined with the second hole, a downhill par 4 often shrouded in fog, I've started double-double on many occasions, basically ended the round before it starts, in terms of scoring.
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The good news about a first hole that goes straight up a hill is that it is likely that the 18th is parallel and coming down the same hill, rather than being the traditional uphill hole.
From my own work, if a forced carry on the first (and 10th) is bad (and I agree it is) then 1 and 10 at the Legend of Giant's Ridge qualify. Sometimes, forced carries are forced on the architect (and hence the name?) by clubhouse location and enviro regs.
In my remodel work, I once corrected an opening hole that doglegged at 5 iron distance, and then required a 3 wood to the green, which seems unnatural to me. I was able to move the tees back, remove some trees, and add an optional carry bunker on the inside corner to create a choice of 3 wood safe tee shot and a driver carrying that fw sand bunker.
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"I'll go with Tilden Park in Berkeley, CA."
Jeff S. -
I have not played there in 25-30 years, but yes, #1 at Tilden immediately came to mind. #1 at Lincoln Park is a bit of an uphill stinker as well.
DT
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Painswick, but what is the alternative?
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I'll go with Tilden Park in Berkeley, CA. The first hole is a par 4 that goes straight up a hill, requiring the approach shot, which I have to play with a mid to long iron, to be played from a severe uphill lie. Combined with the second hole, a downhill par 4 often shrouded in fog, I've started double-double on many occasions, basically ended the round before it starts, in terms of scoring.
I love that hole because it's so unique and I have never seen a hole anything like it. I learned to hit a 3 or 5 wood to get height and distance which leaves a short iron.
Pacific Grove starts with a short par 3 which slows down play immediately.
I can't think of one but starting with a reachable par 5 would be bad because again it would slow down play with players waiting in the fairway just in case they actually might hit the green in two. :P
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Compared to what comes after it, I thought the opening hole at Pebble was very pedestrian. Iron off the tee. Condos looming over you. Not at all what I expected.
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I'll go with Walton Heath New, which is a par 3 with road on your right. Long is in a yard. Only hole on that side of the road as well. Always out of place IMO.
Old?
North Wales has a poor opener legging left adjacent to housing protected by a fence.
West Hill's opener with blind water at the bottom of a sharp downslope isn't one that earns any stars.
Addington's uphill short hole is not an opener which sets a good tone.
Ciao
Definitely agree with West Hill.
I'd also agree that the Addington's first hole isn't a good opener. But it isn't a bad hole. There's a premium on accuracy with the deep but narrow green, which is reasonable for a hole of that length. It's a good contribution to one of the most varied and best sets of par 3s that I've seen.
I'd say something similar about the first on Walton Heath's Old. It's a good long par 3, but too long and tough for the first hole. The par 3 1/2 that starts the New is also an odd first hole, but not a bad one in its own right.
Painswick is a classic choice but I don't mind it because it's so eccentric and unlike other very eccentric holes, at least it's all in front of you.
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I'll go with Walton Heath New, which is a par 3 with road on your right. Long is in a yard. Only hole on that side of the road as well. Always out of place IMO.
Old?
North Wales has a poor opener legging left adjacent to housing protected by a fence.
West Hill's opener with blind water at the bottom of a sharp downslope isn't one that earns any stars.
Addington's uphill short hole is not an opener which sets a good tone.
Ciao
At least the Addington thing should change when the restoration is finished.
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I'll go with Walton Heath New, which is a par 3 with road on your right. Long is in a yard. Only hole on that side of the road as well. Always out of place IMO.
Old?
North Wales has a poor opener legging left adjacent to housing protected by a fence.
West Hill's opener with blind water at the bottom of a sharp downslope isn't one that earns any stars.
Addington's uphill short hole is not an opener which sets a good tone.
Ciao
At least the Addington thing should change when the restoration is finished.
I assume there won't be much difficulty in getting planning permission for a new house?
Another terrible opener, The Glen at North Berwick. A dull and severely dull hole.
Ciao
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I'll go with Walton Heath New, which is a par 3 with road on your right. Long is in a yard. Only hole on that side of the road as well. Always out of place IMO.
Old?
North Wales has a poor opener legging left adjacent to housing protected by a fence.
West Hill's opener with blind water at the bottom of a sharp downslope isn't one that earns any stars.
Addington's uphill short hole is not an opener which sets a good tone.
Ciao
At least the Addington thing should change when the restoration is finished.
I assume there won't be much difficulty in getting planning permission for a new house?
I don't know to be honest, but Ryan is proceeding in such a way that suggests he thinks there won't.
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Maybe not truly awful, but 1st at Pebble Beach is subpar for the course.
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Not a huge fan of Par 3s as Opening Holes. The first at Berkshire Blue (225yds) is an example.
Also I find the first at Victoria Golf Club in Melbourne to be out of character with the rest of the course even though at 266 yds, it's a Par4.
I assume the criteria for nomination here is a hole that is disappointing compared to the rest of the course, not a preview of 17 equally strange/dull holes to follow...
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Apologies to Chris Shaida but I too thought of Ardsley's stinker.
I stand by Secession too. It is visually confusing and entering a course as if you were one of the Israelites following Moses along the very long causeway is jarring and at the very least archly artificial and maybe even a wee bit creepy. And yes in the winds I have played in there most players have a very difficult time aiming over water left with water/land eventually right and controlling their ball in the air.
And yes a hole that does not presage ( I misspelld in original post) the rest of the design definitely begins the downward spiral of merit
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Not a huge fan of Par 3s as Opening Holes. The first at Berkshire Blue (225yds) is an example.
. 👀
Ciao
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I'll go with Walton Heath New, which is a par 3 with road on your right. Long is in a yard. Only hole on that side of the road as well. Always out of place IMO.
Old?
North Wales has a poor opener legging left adjacent to housing protected by a fence.
West Hill's opener with blind water at the bottom of a sharp downslope isn't one that earns any stars.
Addington's uphill short hole is not an opener which sets a good tone.
Ciao
Yes apologies it is Old, not New. I don't like the opening par 3 myself. I actually enjoy the opener on the New short par 4.
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I think we need to make the distinction between truly awful opening holes...and truly difficult ones.
While nothing comes to mind for the first category, (although I've played my fair share of very mediocre ones) I can certainly think of a few in the latter one.
P.S. I've played Tilden a few times too, and while the 1st hole is certainly not awful it is perhaps the toughest opening hole I've ever played.
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Despite an absolute bias towards the club and its history, the former 1st hole at Paramount CC was unquestionably abysmal. It was so bad, we swapped nines and made it the current #10. It was easily the worst "opening handshake" I'd ever seen.
At 400yds this HCP 1 Par-4 tee shot crossed a busy Zukor Rd at 260yds and led to 50yd long fairway extension before turning straight uphill (30+% slope) to a blinded ample green severely tilted back-to-front. Tilly used this hole to get to the other side of the property and what is now a major N-S artery was once little more than a horse and buggy supply route. Even so, he must've been hitting the flask hard to conceive of this level of insanity & difficulty. Sadly, we have very few viable pin positions--all have to be on the back 1/4-- due to the green's serious slope and any shot, or putt, decently behind any of those pins runs the risk of 2x or 3x bogey easily!
I love Paramount for sure, yet have to nominate the old #1 as a truly, truly awful hole. Frankly, I hope to retire it one day, regrade the green and make it a practice putting green.
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This one has been replaced. Glaze Meadow, which is at Black Butte Resort in central Oregon. Double dogleg par 5, most likely played with fairway wood, mid-iron, mid-iron.
Pretty sure John VDB is with me on this one. (He thought it was 6-i, 9-i,9-i).
Agree completely. I didn’t know it had been replaced, but any change would have to be an improvement.
Another that, while it isn’t a terrible hole, always bugged me is the first at Salishan on the Oregon Coast. It is the only forced carry on the course, making the resort golfer get that first ball in the air for a carry of a little over 100 yards. I saw a lot of first shots of the day dunked in there by nervous golfers.
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I think we need to make the distinction between truly awful opening holes...and truly difficult ones.
Fairplay Kalen. Although difficulty alone is not condemnable these holes can be made difficult by poor routing, empahasized features, unnecassarily penal choices; so often difficulty can be attributed to poor design execution and I reference again the no 1 hole at Old Stone.
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Anyone walking TPC Boston might have their thumb out hitchhiking before arriving at the distant first tee.
The hole itself isn't the worst but you find yourself wondering why the journey was necessary for mediocrity.
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I think we need to make the distinction between truly awful opening holes...and truly difficult ones.
Fairplay Kalen. Although difficulty alone is not condemnable these holes can be made difficult by poor routing, empahasized features, unnecassarily penal choices; so often difficulty can be attributed to poor design execution and I reference again the no 1 hole at Old Stone.
Agreed Ward,
Conceptually, I think most holes probably don't qualify as being truly awful, even if there is an over-abundance of mediocre ones. I guess a claim could be made its a poor routing decision to have a difficult opener, but I would hope most of the time it was because the architect's hands were tied due to a non-negotiable location for the parking lot and clubhouse.
I'll be watching to see what else pops up and glad to see no one's played the CPC#1 card... yet! ;D
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Glad to see Tilden Park getting some play on the site; I live 5 minutes from the course. Count me as one who likes the first hole, even though I think I've made par once in dozens of attempts. Tilden is flummoxing in that (IMO) not only are #1 and #2 the two hardest holes on the front nine, #10 and #11 are the two hardest holes on the back nine!
In my one visit, did I miss something redeeming about the first hole at Woking? Especially in contrast to the greatness of 2 through 4, I remember it being kind of a nothing burger.
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Despite an absolute bias towards the club and its history, the former 1st hole at Paramount CC was unquestionably abysmal. It was so bad, we swapped nines and made it the current #10. It was easily the worst "opening handshake" I'd ever seen.
At 400yds this HCP 1 Par-4 tee shot crossed a busy Zukor Rd at 260yds and led to 50yd long fairway extension before turning straight uphill (30+% slope) to a blinded ample green severely tilted back-to-front. Tilly used this hole to get to the other side of the property and what is now a major N-S artery was once little more than a horse and buggy supply route. Even so, he must've been hitting the flask hard to conceive of this level of insanity & difficulty. Sadly, we have very few viable pin positions--all have to be on the back 1/4-- due to the green's serious slope and any shot, or putt, decently behind any of those pins runs the risk of 2x or 3x bogey easily!
I love Paramount for sure, yet have to nominate the old #1 as a truly, truly awful hole. Frankly, I hope to retire it one day, regrade the green and make it a practice putting green.
I love Paramount as well, and the first is maybe crummy. But not truly, truly awful. Grin.
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Southerndown's 1st is a Truly Awful walk uphill ;D its the steepest hole on the whole course.
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I have posted before that our course—Kenwood in Maryland, not Ohio—has the worst opening hole I have played in my over 50 years of playing golf. It is a short (340 yards) Par 4. There is out of bounds all of the way up the right, and the fairway cants really hard left to right, particularly for tee shots that carry less than 225 yards. Of course, the logical play is the left side of the fairway except there is a row of trees just off the fairway with low, really low, limbs. To top things off for us mediocre players, there is a deeply seated irrigation pond left off of the tee which is not a very long carry but is visually intimidating for the first swing of the day. It gets a lot of action as does the 45 degree slope leading back up to the fairway which presents a blind punch back toward out of bounds.
And that is just the tee shot. The entire right side of the green is protected (blocked) by a large tree 20 yards of the green. Just behind the tree is a fairly deep bunker. So double hazards. The green is very interestingly contoured but it also cants hard left to right. Once again the logical play is left edge of the green. Except that there is a bunker just off of there which leaves a tricky lightening quick downhill shot.
The strong players hit their tee shot over the trees to the 18th fairway which if the shot gets further enough left is a good line but the wedge shot still plays to a downslope green. For us mortals, a high % of rounds start with a double bogey or worse.
Ira
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The strong players hit their tee shot over the trees to the 18th fairway which if the shot gets further enough left is a good line but the wedge shot still plays to a downslope green. For us mortals, a high % of rounds start with a double bogey or worse.
Ira
Ira-Whether you are playing for score or not the opening open double or worse is soul crushing. It’s a coin flip for me whether the big number on 1 or 18 is worse. If you are gambling obviously it’s worse on 18. :)
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Tim,
I have not played for score or a wager in a very long time. Still plenty of doubles or worse on opening holes, but they were not truly awful from a design perspective. Not even a good architect can save me from bad shots, but at least they present a navigable challenge.
Ira
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This one has been replaced. Glaze Meadow, which is at Black Butte Resort in central Oregon. Double dogleg par 5, most likely played with fairway wood, mid-iron, mid-iron.
Pretty sure John VDB is with me on this one. (He thought it was 6-i, 9-i,9-i).
Agree completely. I didn’t know it had been replaced, but any change would have to be an improvement.
Shortened to a par 4 by moving tees forward and right, new green site to left. Now a chicane rather than a hairpin. Lengthened 2nd hole to par 5. Renovation of the Bunny Mason course was done by John Fought.
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Despite an absolute bias towards the club and its history, the former 1st hole at Paramount CC was unquestionably abysmal. It was so bad, we swapped nines and made it the current #10. It was easily the worst "opening handshake" I'd ever seen.
At 400yds this HCP 1 Par-4 tee shot crossed a busy Zukor Rd at 260yds and led to 50yd long fairway extension before turning straight uphill (30+% slope) to a blinded ample green severely tilted back-to-front. Tilly used this hole to get to the other side of the property and what is now a major N-S artery was once little more than a horse and buggy supply route. Even so, he must've been hitting the flask hard to conceive of this level of insanity & difficulty. Sadly, we have very few viable pin positions--all have to be on the back 1/4-- due to the green's serious slope and any shot, or putt, decently behind any of those pins runs the risk of 2x or 3x bogey easily!
I love Paramount for sure, yet have to nominate the old #1 as a truly, truly awful hole. Frankly, I hope to retire it one day, regrade the green and make it a practice putting green.
I love Paramount as well, and the first is maybe crummy. But not truly, truly awful. Grin.
I actually LOVE the "slap in the face" of the original 1st hole at Paramount. "I AM PARAMOUNT....FEAR ME", I think I heard Tilly whisper on the wind. It was fair warning.
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Not a fan of water logged openers. Why do you need to risk me loosing a ball on the very first hole! I understand the challenge but I am a very firm believer of the gentle handshake openers. With that in mind for your consideration:
- The Judge @ RTJ Trail - beautiful view and understand the routing needs it to get you down to that part of the property but as an opener it's a bit much IMHO
- Grand Cypress - One of the original three 9's played dead into the rising sun w/ H2O all down the right side.
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Despite an absolute bias towards the club and its history, the former 1st hole at Paramount CC was unquestionably abysmal. It was so bad, we swapped nines and made it the current #10. It was easily the worst "opening handshake" I'd ever seen.
At 400yds this HCP 1 Par-4 tee shot crossed a busy Zukor Rd at 260yds and led to 50yd long fairway extension before turning straight uphill (30+% slope) to a blinded ample green severely tilted back-to-front. Tilly used this hole to get to the other side of the property and what is now a major N-S artery was once little more than a horse and buggy supply route. Even so, he must've been hitting the flask hard to conceive of this level of insanity & difficulty. Sadly, we have very few viable pin positions--all have to be on the back 1/4-- due to the green's serious slope and any shot, or putt, decently behind any of those pins runs the risk of 2x or 3x bogey easily!
I love Paramount for sure, yet have to nominate the old #1 as a truly, truly awful hole. Frankly, I hope to retire it one day, regrade the green and make it a practice putting green.
Isn't it really the road that is bad rather than the design of the hole? If the road was closed and grassed over, or if the amount of traffic was as light as when the course was built, it wouldn't be a bad hole.
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Glad to see Tilden Park getting some play on the site; I live 5 minutes from the course. Count me as one who likes the first hole, even though I think I've made par once in dozens of attempts. Tilden is flummoxing in that (IMO) not only are #1 and #2 the two hardest holes on the front nine, #10 and #11 are the two hardest holes on the back nine!
I was not expecting Tilden to dominate this thread! I lived in the area for several years and played Tilden a handful of times. I actually thought the course had a lot of fun holes especially given the terrain challenges. But #1 isn't much fun and part of the problem is you drive right past it on the way in and get reminded of just how uphill it is. You get disappointed twice.
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Despite the affinity shown by the twin apostles of Philly for #1 at Paramount, it is a rotten hole.
Even without the road, the ridiculous verticality of the second shot, the severity of the green, its distinct lack of pin positions, and its impossibility for recovery from behind it, all combine to make it awful. This century's traffic on Zukor Rd just adds liability to its insanity.
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Despite an absolute bias towards the club and its history, the former 1st hole at Paramount CC was unquestionably abysmal. It was so bad, we swapped nines and made it the current #10. It was easily the worst "opening handshake" I'd ever seen.
At 400yds this HCP 1 Par-4 tee shot crossed a busy Zukor Rd at 260yds and led to 50yd long fairway extension before turning straight uphill (30+% slope) to a blinded ample green severely tilted back-to-front. Tilly used this hole to get to the other side of the property and what is now a major N-S artery was once little more than a horse and buggy supply route. Even so, he must've been hitting the flask hard to conceive of this level of insanity & difficulty. Sadly, we have very few viable pin positions--all have to be on the back 1/4-- due to the green's serious slope and any shot, or putt, decently behind any of those pins runs the risk of 2x or 3x bogey easily!
I love Paramount for sure, yet have to nominate the old #1 as a truly, truly awful hole. Frankly, I hope to retire it one day, regrade the green and make it a practice putting green.
I love Paramount as well, and the first is maybe crummy. But not truly, truly awful. Grin.
I actually LOVE the "slap in the face" of the original 1st hole at Paramount. "I AM PARAMOUNT....FEAR ME", I think I heard Tilly whisper on the wind. It was fair warning.
My first round at Paramount was with the Asst. Super just after the renovation was finished. I questioned the placement of the 1st hole with the through-road at Driving Distance. He has spent some time reviewing the original plans with Jim Urbina and mentioned the 'road' wasn't there... Certainly it was not a public, paved road at the time the course opened.
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Despite an absolute bias towards the club and its history, the former 1st hole at Paramount CC was unquestionably abysmal. It was so bad, we swapped nines and made it the current #10. It was easily the worst "opening handshake" I'd ever seen.
At 400yds this HCP 1 Par-4 tee shot crossed a busy Zukor Rd at 260yds and led to 50yd long fairway extension before turning straight uphill (30+% slope) to a blinded ample green severely tilted back-to-front. Tilly used this hole to get to the other side of the property and what is now a major N-S artery was once little more than a horse and buggy supply route. Even so, he must've been hitting the flask hard to conceive of this level of insanity & difficulty. Sadly, we have very few viable pin positions--all have to be on the back 1/4-- due to the green's serious slope and any shot, or putt, decently behind any of those pins runs the risk of 2x or 3x bogey easily!
I love Paramount for sure, yet have to nominate the old #1 as a truly, truly awful hole. Frankly, I hope to retire it one day, regrade the green and make it a practice putting green.
I love Paramount as well, and the first is maybe crummy. But not truly, truly awful. Grin.
I actually LOVE the "slap in the face" of the original 1st hole at Paramount. "I AM PARAMOUNT....FEAR ME", I think I heard Tilly whisper on the wind. It was fair warning.
My first round at Paramount was with the Asst. Super just after the renovation was finished. I questioned the placement of the 1st hole with the through-road at Driving Distance. He has spent some time reviewing the original plans with Jim Urbina and mentioned the 'road' wasn't there... Certainly it was not a public, paved road at the time the course opened.
Anthony,
You must've played with Matt Kerens. He's since become our head Super. Unfortunately, no "original" AWT plans exist or existed. We had both George Bahto and Phil Young do all the research possible before the restoration.
The road was indeed there back in the day. It was originally a dirt road that served primarily as a horse & buggy supply road. Over the years, its turned into a major north-south automobile artery and the part that dissects 7 holes from the other 11 is a high speed arc.
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Tuxedo, NY, RTJ Sr.
400 yards, uphill tee shot, dogleg left, the fairway narrows to 15 yards after the dogleg. If you lay back to the corner of the dogleg you can only hit it 230 and are left with a long second shot to a green that's been built up 15 feet. Miss the green right and your ball will hit the side hill and bounce into the woods, where it is not marked red (I know from experience). Hitting a provisional from the fairway on the first hole is NOT fun.
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I have posted before that our course—Kenwood in Maryland, not Ohio—has the worst opening hole I have played in my over 50 years of playing golf. It is a short (340 yards) Par 4. There is out of bounds all of the way up the right, and the fairway cants really hard left to right, particularly for tee shots that carry less than 225 yards. Of course, the logical play is the left side of the fairway except there is a row of trees just off the fairway with low, really low, limbs. To top things off for us mediocre players, there is a deeply seated irrigation pond left off of the tee which is not a very long carry but is visually intimidating for the first swing of the day. It gets a lot of action as does the 45 degree slope leading back up to the fairway which presents a blind punch back toward out of bounds.
And that is just the tee shot. The entire right side of the green is protected (blocked) by a large tree 20 yards of the green. Just behind the tree is a fairly deep bunker. So double hazards. The green is very interestingly contoured but it also cants hard left to right. Once again the logical play is left edge of the green. Except that there is a bunker just off of there which leaves a tricky lightening quick downhill shot.
The strong players hit their tee shot over the trees to the 18th fairway which if the shot gets further enough left is a good line but the wedge shot still plays to a downslope green. For us mortals, a high % of rounds start with a double bogey or worse.
Ira
Agree. That hole is a disaster and the prevailing wind is from the left!
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Glad to see Tilden Park getting some play on the site; I live 5 minutes from the course. Count me as one who likes the first hole, even though I think I've made par once in dozens of attempts. Tilden is flummoxing in that (IMO) not only are #1 and #2 the two hardest holes on the front nine, #10 and #11 are the two hardest holes on the back nine!
I was not expecting Tilden to dominate this thread! I lived in the area for several years and played Tilden a handful of times. I actually thought the course had a lot of fun holes especially given the terrain challenges. But #1 isn't much fun and part of the problem is you drive right past it on the way in and get reminded of just how uphill it is. You get disappointed twice.
Yeah, fun to see Tilden on here. The problem with #1 is that it seems like you wait on the tee so long for the group in front of you, since it is such a struggle at the start. The second shot is such a brute unless you are a strong player.
#2 never seemed like a brute, as long as you can hit a nice draw off the tee.
#11 is the site of one of my two HiO's so I am partial to it, even though it is an absolute brute from back tee. I hit a three wood that somehow found the cup one day.
I miss Tilden...played it every nearly every Saturday morning with friends (first off the tee) for a 7-9 year stretch.
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Tilden is certainly interesting in a few ways.
Its one of the hardest courses I've played relative to its length ~5800 yards from whites, (6200 from the blues which I never tried). 3 of the par 3s play long at 209, 199, and 186 respectively in addition to the aforementioned par 4s. There are also several creeks/barrancas in play and a number of holes where lost ball protentional is very real.
As for hole 1 it plays at 404 from the whites, and is just shy of 100 feet of elevation gain (98 feet via Google Earth). There is a 375 yard tee that doesn't show on the card, but given it adds an additional 10 feet of elevation gain, it ain't helping you much.
P.S. However, after enduring 1 and 2, you then get to tee off the top of the ski slope back down to 3 green where I've had one of my all time longest drives (with an assist from the crossing road). ;)
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Tilden is certainly interesting in a few ways.
Its one of the hardest courses I've played relative to its length ~5800 yards from whites, (6200 from the blues which I never tried). 3 of the par 3s play long at 209, 199, and 186 respectively in addition to the aforementioned par 4s. There are also several creeks/barrancas in play and a number of holes where lost ball protentional is very real.
As for hole 1 it plays at 404 from the whites, and is just shy of 100 feet of elevation gain (98 feet via Google Earth). There is a 375 yard tee that doesn't show on the card, but given it adds an additional 10 feet of elevation gain, it ain't helping you much.
P.S. However, after enduring 1 and 2, you then get to tee off the top of the ski slope back down to 3 green where I've had one of my all time longest drives (with an assist from the crossing road). ;)
I nominated that hole because my understanding is that one of the theories of the first hole is that it should ease you into the round. There's obviously support for that from TOC, where the first fairway is so often described as "too wide to miss." This wouldn't be an issue if I, like most Americans, weren't so score focused, due to posting requirements and our faulty national character. Starting the round with a double-bogey just doesn't leave a good taste in the mouth.
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I nominated that hole because my understanding is that one of the theories of the first hole is that it should ease you into the round. There's obviously support for that from TOC, where the first fairway is so often described as "too wide to miss." This wouldn't be an issue if I, like most Americans, weren't so score focused, due to posting requirements and our faulty national character. Starting the round with a double-bogey just doesn't leave a good taste in the mouth.
It does kind of ease you into the round in that it's probably one of the holes at Tilden where you are LEAST likely to lose a ball.
Which doesn't make it a good hole. I'm not sure #1 at Tilden could possibly have aspirations of becoming a good hole.
But you can just think of it as a par 5 if taking 6 is the problem. 400 yards straight uphill at 7 AM on a dewy morning has to play at least 500!
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Number 1 at Fraserburgh is a bland, straight, vanilla hole.
Especially when compared with 2-17.
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Although I love both courses Bedford Springs and Ballyhack need dishonorable mention here.
Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?
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Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?
IMO yes. What is the issue with it? A huge fairway opening tee shot that doesn't require driver is rather welcome. It is a blind approach, but a very large green. I rather like the opener.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdgXgqAkYZ8
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Although I love both courses Bedford Springs and Ballyhack need dishonorable mention here.
Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?
WTF? I took you as a man with soul.
Ciao
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Although I love both courses Bedford Springs and Ballyhack need dishonorable mention here.
Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?
WTF? I took you as a man with soul.
Ciao
Ouch.
I love North Berwick but it came to mind as I mentioned both Bedford Springs and Ballyhack, holes where the really only prudent drive is to start the day with a layup, followed by a blind uphill approach with lots of danger all around. Not wanting to be hypocritical, I recalled that our friend North Berwick featured a similar style hole, which is why I asked (mostly myself, rhetorically) if it was blasphemy to include NB.
I think it falls a bit into the category of someone who asked what if Cypress Point started with the 16th hole. I'd love any of the holes mentioned here as a one-off somewhere deeper in the round but as a starter a forced layup is less than ideal, in my opinion. Just trying to be intellectually honest and consistent, I guess.
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Although I love both courses Bedford Springs and Ballyhack need dishonorable mention here.
Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?
WTF? I took you as a man with soul.
Ciao
Ouch.
I love North Berwick but it came to mind as I mentioned both Bedford Springs and Ballyhack, holes where the really only prudent drive is to start the day with a layup, followed by a blind uphill approach with lots of danger all around. Not wanting to be hypocritical, I recalled that our friend North Berwick featured a similar style hole, which is why I asked (mostly myself, rhetorically) if it was blasphemy to include NB.
I think it falls a bit into the category of someone who asked what if Cypress Point started with the 16th hole. I'd love any of the holes mentioned here as a one-off somewhere deeper in the round but as a starter a forced layup is less than ideal, in my opinion. Just trying to be intellectually honest and consistent, I guess.
Sorry, I thought I included a smiley face.
In any case, I think the opener is a goodun. Play safe left and go blind on the second, play near the beach for a view of the flag or blast one up there. I saw a guy reach the green with a 4 wood! Some guys are long enough. Plus, it's a pretty hole. That said I wonder if it would be better as a par 3?
Ciao
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Sean,
Understood, thanks.
Believe me, there is no place I'd rather be than on the first tee at North Berwick at this very moment. ;D
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Anthony,
You must've played with Matt Kerens. He's since become our head Super. Unfortunately, no "original" AWT plans exist or existed. We had both George Bahto and Phil Young do all the research possible before the restoration.
The road was indeed there back in the day. It was originally a dirt road that served primarily as a horse & buggy supply road. Over the years, its turned into a major north-south automobile artery and the part that dissects 7 holes from the other 11 is a high speed arc.
I very much enjoyed my round with Matt. He seemed totally in sync with Jim Urbina's vision for the course, which I'm sure is part of the reason why the work turned out so well.
To your point about the traffic Steve, minimum speed through the golf course appeared to be about 40mph... and no-one stops for you either.
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Although I love both courses Bedford Springs and Ballyhack need dishonorable mention here.
Is it blasphemous to include North Berwick?
Mike,
Have you played the course at Hidden Valley (PA)? I have a vague memory that the 1st was a dogleg where you had to layup short of water and then play the second over the water which ran to the edge of the front of the green. Very awkward opening hole.
Ira
PS Yes, it is blasphemous re NB. A perfect introduction to the character of the course.
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Ira,
There are actually 2 "Hidden Valley"'s in PA. I've played half of them. :)
Seriously, suspect you played the one in Western PA? I played the one in Eastern PA.
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Ira,
There are actually 2 "Hidden Valley"'s in PA. I've played half of them. :)
Seriously, suspect you played the one in Western PA? I played the one in Eastern PA.
Yes, Western. Really bad opening hole, but rest of course quite scenic. It was a long time ago though.
Ira
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Ira,
p.s. I feel that my mention of North Berwick on this thread might deserve a "Game of Thrones" Circe-like walk of shame through the virtual mean streets of GCAville.
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Ira,
p.s. I feel that my mention of North Berwick on this thread might deserve a "Game of Thrones" Circe-like walk of shame through the virtual mean streets of GCAville.
At the very least its gotta be a party-foul. ;D What's not to like?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYu_lEERUIU
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At the very least its gotta be a party-foul. ;D What's not to like?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYu_lEERUIU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYu_lEERUIU)
Can we at least get JohnK to play the role of High Sparrow?
I haven't seen him since a wonderful day at Swope Park but in a perfect world I can do the perp walk along the mine tailings at Victoria National.
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The worst opening hole of all time has to be the current first at Shagganpi Point in my hometown of Calgary. It was once the site of a pretty solid Tom Bendalow course, but that was removed to build 27 holes ranging from architectural malpractice to questionably bland.
The first hole here typifies the quality of the golf course a 243 y par 4 downhill to a peninsula green in a created pond with OB left and long. The clever play is to lay up with a short iron to hit a wedge, but due to poor drainage, the lay-up area is always wet so its best to miss the fairway to the right and hit the shot from the rough as the extra grass helps hide the poor ground conditions.
Going for it is death as the green is always a little firmer than the rest of the golf course. So you need a tour flight long iron of FW wood to hold the green as they didn't add a bunker or catchment feature to hold the ball on the peninsula.
This course is yet another one of our historical Canadian courses that was lost to the pursuit of progress.
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I will get jumped, but I don't like the first hole at Oakmont. It is more than a slap in the face; it is a kick in the gut.
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I will get jumped, but I don't like the first hole at Oakmont. It is more than a slap in the face; it is a kick in the gut.
Tom-When did difficulty become the barometer of what makes a quality golf hole? I have to respectfully disagree.
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I will get jumped, but I don't like the first hole at Oakmont. It is more than a slap in the face; it is a kick in the gut.
Tom-When did difficulty become the barometer of what makes a quality golf hole? I have to respectfully disagree.
Tim,
Couldn't agree more, and I think this thread struggled due to this. As a high capper, I find many holes "difficult", but very very few of them are awful.
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I will get jumped, but I don't like the first hole at Oakmont. It is more than a slap in the face; it is a kick in the gut.
Tom-When did difficulty become the barometer of what makes a quality golf hole? I have to respectfully disagree.
I agree. Many first holes are difficult, which I like. One at Oakmont, though, belongs later in the round.
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I will get jumped, but I don't like the first hole at Oakmont. It is more than a slap in the face; it is a kick in the gut.
Getting slapped in the face is the perfect opener for Oakmont. At least as you walk across the bridge to #2 you know what to expect 17 more times.
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It also helps pace of play with the drivable 2nd.
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No naked Cirba on a walk of shame. That's the stuff of scorched retinas.
No changing any par-four opener to a par three, Sean.
It's a long valley, despite being hidden. It extends the entire width of the commonwealth. There may be a third, Hidden Valley, in the middle, but no one has found it yet...
My memory of Paramount is clouded by the shutdown of my camera on the first fairway. I lost any chance at images of the course. I think I spent the entire, alpine trek worried more about that than the actual nature of the summiting of Mount Tillie.
Orchard Park Country Club, near Buffalo, is a Travis design. Its opening hole has something I despise: rough on the descent to the lower fairway. If a golfer is long enough to reach the lower fairway, don't protect some imagined honor by hanging her/him/them up in rough on the downslope. Also, they purportedly leveled the green five years ago, as it canted from back to front quite severely. Not sure who took money for the work, but the green is still too severe to allow for more than a trio of pin positions. Oh, and there is a creek in front of the elevated green, along with a hill behind, so club precisely!
Combined with the claustrophobic second hole (railroad tracks left, unnecessary trees right) it's the worst opening stretch of a good course in the area. OPCC does not have a history of making good architectural decisions. They butchered their Travis layout by bringing in Brian Ault to create a practice facility near the clubhouse. Lost were 17 and 18, and don't get me started on the Florida holes that were dropped into the interior of the course. OPCC has some marvelous WJT holes, and Ian Andrew has worked diligently to return many of The Old Man's brilliance to what remains (1-4, 7-12, 14-16) of his original work.
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There is a similar thread back in 2020, The Worst First Hole, https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=68556.0
I would say Ballyhack no. 1. It is a forced carry and very uphill. You could make no. 1 into a par 3 but people don't like par 3 first holes.
Since it is a cart course, I would have no. 1 hole be the current no. 2, par five starter. It would have meant 10 holes on the other side of the road with the extra hole up on the hill by no. 12.
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Ballyhack 1 became much more likeable after repeated plays. Very demanding on the first couple of plays for sure. The key to the hole is comfort that the fairway really is that wide to the left and also making sure that you hit enough club to get up on the back half of the green and use the backstop. Declaring the "Breakfast or Lunch Ball" in play on the tee doesn't hurt either.
Also, I like Bedford 1 as well. Other lay-up 1st holes that work for me are West Shore CC in Camp Hill, PA and Williamsport CC.
Wren Dale/Hershey Links (NLE - Hurdzan/Fry) had an architecturally bad 1st hole. Would have been better as the 10th but still not a particularly good hole. Blind lay-up with lost ball gunch straight, right and left. If you stayed out of the gunch and just got in the primary rough left you couldn't make the forced carry to the next section of fairway as the hole turned right. Many rounds started with a slight miss left followed by a wedge lay up short of the ravine and then trying to hit 220 or so up hill onto the green. If you tried the forced carry of 180 or so uphill it was very questionable that you could get it across and then you were hitting 4 over the ravine instead of 3 with the layup.
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i take issue with the entire premise because standing on the first tee of any golf course means i have 18 holes of golf ahead of me, which is preferable to any other way to spend time.
JC
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The first hole at Hanging Rock GC fits this bill the most of any I've played.
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Ballyhack #1 is fantastic. If you can't handle a forced carry, move up a deck or three. I fell in love with it the first time I saw it, and enjoyed it again, the following day.