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Kalen Braley

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Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 13 in progress
« Reply #150 on: November 23, 2022, 05:44:54 PM »
It's a little hard to tell, but it looks as if an approach shot from the right side of the fairway (or rough) plays into the green's slope.  If you drive it long and left, the approach angle is a bit less attractive.  The best angle requires a longer approach.  Still, I'd guess the most effective strategy is a long drive and a shorter approach, despite the slightly inferior angle.

It's less dramatic than most of the previous holes.  The native bowl short and right is compelling.  They should work hard to keep that area playable.  I don't know how long this hole is, but I'll guess 375-400.  I think a long hitter (like say, Jim Colton) might just blast it at the green and take their chances.


That's about right.  Card says the middle tees are 380 and 2nd longest 415.

However, wouldn't you agree that little bowl area to the right is begging for a pond!  8)

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 13 in progress
« Reply #151 on: November 23, 2022, 09:50:15 PM »
It's a little hard to tell, but it looks as if an approach shot from the right side of the fairway (or rough) plays into the green's slope.  If you drive it long and left, the approach angle is a bit less attractive.  The best angle requires a longer approach.  Still, I'd guess the most effective strategy is a long drive and a shorter approach, despite the slightly inferior angle.

It's less dramatic than most of the previous holes.  The native bowl short and right is compelling.  They should work hard to keep that area playable.  I don't know how long this hole is, but I'll guess 375-400.  I think a long hitter (like say, Jim Colton) might just blast it at the green and take their chances.


John,


435 from back tees, 415 one set up.


The hole is much more dramatic on site.  More downhill on the tee shot than photos can capture.


The right bowl certainly got a lot of action in our groups.  If my memory is correct, the first bunker edge was 285 from the 415 tee.


Iím not sure if the angle of approach into the green favored right or left side of the fairway but there was definitely a yardage difference.  The right side shortened the approach.


Ken
« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 11:15:12 AM by Ken Fry »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 13 in progress
« Reply #152 on: November 25, 2022, 09:29:46 AM »
13's tee shot is the most intimidating on the course to me because of the sense that a) it's significantly narrower than the fairways so far, and b) both the near and far edges of the fairway are rapidly disappearing as you look right to left. It feels like you have to really calibrate your line, whereas on most holes you are swinging for the fences.


Also, the farther and farther forward and left you hit it, the more subtly awkward the approach becomes because you're going to be coming less and less directly up the fall line of the green and you're gradually trading a downhill approach for a level or slightly uphill one. It's a nice way to narrow the advantage a longer tee shot typically enjoys over a shorter one.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 13 in progress
« Reply #153 on: November 25, 2022, 05:00:27 PM »
14 is one of the holes you travel to Landmand for. It's a deeply audacious rendition of the Redan. I saw a lot of different progressions and outcomes unfold here - splendid shots and some really funky predicaments for marginal ones. I think it works. Believe the hype that builds on the horizon as you work your way to this tee.
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 13 in progress
« Reply #154 on: November 25, 2022, 05:10:15 PM »
It's a little hard to tell, but it looks as if an approach shot from the right side of the fairway (or rough) plays into the green's slope.  If you drive it long and left, the approach angle is a bit less attractive.  The best angle requires a longer approach.  Still, I'd guess the most effective strategy is a long drive and a shorter approach, despite the slightly inferior angle.

It's less dramatic than most of the previous holes.  The native bowl short and right is compelling.  They should work hard to keep that area playable.  I don't know how long this hole is, but I'll guess 375-400.  I think a long hitter (like say, Jim Colton) might just blast it at the green and take their chances.


I've bitched a bit aesthetically, but I do think the hole plays very well. And I liked my tactic of shoving a 4iron down the right half of the fairway to set up short irons into the slope of the green. I sorta like hitting off a gentle downslope at Landmand anyways. I never felt jealous of the guys who hit driver... at least not until Jake started talking about flying bunkers during a final skins game.
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 14 in progress
« Reply #155 on: November 25, 2022, 06:49:14 PM »
#15 (to be discussed after #14) tee shot is the epitome of "grip it and rip it."  There's a football field wide fairway to hit.  I found the lay-up very interesting and thought provoking to pick a good line and distance to position for the best approach to the green.  There's a shelf on the left side of the fairway providing about as flat a lie as you can find at Landmand.

Now for the green.  Surprising.  Audacious. Massive.  It's certainly not what I expected during the first play and made me chuckle each subsequent play.  The crevasse in the middle front of the green has to be seen to be believed.  Like so many greens at Landmand, the green is HUGE.

As a total side bar, Landmand is the first course I've ever experienced with turf covered sprinkler heads in the greens.  The greens are so massive in many cases, there would be no way to get irrigation on the green pad without internal heads.

Ken
« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 09:31:20 AM by Ken Fry »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 14 in progress
« Reply #156 on: November 25, 2022, 10:28:24 PM »
Ken, is the Redan THAT forgettable?
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 14 in progress
« Reply #157 on: November 26, 2022, 09:37:40 AM »
Ken, is the Redan THAT forgettable?


Ok.  I got a bit ahead of myself and that certainly doesnít mean I want to bypass 14.


Redan hole tee shots have never felt natural to me.  I always struggle with the on demand controlled draw!


This green provides for a challenging tee shot but also loads of options for putting. Once again, a HUGE green. We used the right edge on more than one occasion to cuddle shots up close to the hole.  Creative putting wins out here.


Ken

Cal Carlisle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 14 in progress
« Reply #158 on: November 27, 2022, 01:27:20 PM »
I don't rememember when it was, but within the last year or so someone talked about the "thrill of anticipation". The idea that there is a thrill in either anticipating a good shot that isn't quite aparrent from the vantage point from where the ball was struck or a shot slowly making its way to the intended finishing point. This is one of those holes.

I saw a number of shots that slowly (and I mean slowly) make their way down to the pin. It was a lot of fun guessing where these tee shots would ultimately end up. Was it good? Was it bad? No one really knew.


I can't imagine the greens ever having a lower height of cut than they currently have. Lots of three putts to be had on this one.


DSC00679-2 by Calvin Carlisle, on Flickr




DSC00678-2 by Calvin Carlisle, on Flickr

Doug Bolls

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 14 in progress
« Reply #159 on: November 27, 2022, 01:52:48 PM »
I commented on both days that #14 was a PERFECT example of a Redan - you approach it from the correct angle, the tilt is just right, bunkers placed optimally, and it's BIG.


With the pin down where it was (left, back) no doubt the perfect shot is right front and let it roll with the slope.  Jay Mickle was the only one of our group that I saw execute it exactly right - and he got rewarded with a 6 foot birdie try.


Once in a while I see a very well executed "template" hole - a Short with the perfect thumbprint/horseshoe or a Biarritz with a swale that takes your breath away - I think #14 at Landmand is right up there with the best.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 14 in progress
« Reply #160 on: November 27, 2022, 02:10:44 PM »
We always talk about the tee shot when we talk Redans. Cal and Doug illustrate well - the tee shot on 14 works beautifully. Hitting the right shot here is a blast.


The part that most impressed me, though, was the amount of interest on hand around the green. If you missed the target with your tee shot, things start to get really interesting. I don't remember ever getting this same feeling of interest on other Redan holes. The seriousness of the slopes on this one really open up some crazy recovery options if you miss on the "inside left" of the green. And if you fire for the kickslope and push your tee shot... yikes. Recoveries from right/long are nightmares.


I also thought the left/back portion of the green yielded a few different, and large, pin placement areas. It's a green that's 2/3rds unpinnable and yet still has 3 greens within the green that ARE pinnable... I don't know if I've ever seen anything like that before.
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 14 in progress
« Reply #161 on: November 28, 2022, 10:34:51 AM »
I was going to argue that a Redan shouldn't have a sand hazard for shots that are hit long.  I was basing that comment on playing the North Berwick Redan and a couple of other prominent examples where my ball rolled over the green and I was left with a steeply uphill chip shot, which gives a reasonably good chance at par.

So I looked up a couple of other examples (Yale and Shoreacres) which have bunkers behind the green, so I guess there's no requirement that behind the green is grass, not sand.

I like the picture.  One of the better looking holes on the course, and the hole fits the land well.  It looks fun to play.  Is it really a Redan if there's sand back there, ruling out the chip and run save for par?

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 14 in progress
« Reply #162 on: November 28, 2022, 12:14:48 PM »
The gravity of that first front-left bunker is incredible. Over the course of my two rounds in August, I must have hit 7 or 8 tee shots and at least 5 of them ended up in/around that first front-left bunker.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 14 in progress
« Reply #163 on: November 28, 2022, 05:44:13 PM »
John, for what it's worth on this hole, I think you have to really misplay your tee shot to find that bunker long. It's hard for me really to envision many balls ending up there unless a player gets too overzealous with too direct of a line toward the pin. The kickslope just isn't going to feed a player past the end of the green I don't think... your ball will have been rolling for 50+ yards by the time it funnels into that bunker and I just have to think a ball with that much zip on it will run through the green long instead (staying right of the pin)... which means attempting to recover from straight above the hole.


I think it's definitely a Redan. It might be the most Redan Redan that I've ever played, really. I think I get the context of your question, and the thought that on a lot of Redan holes a miss long and left might not be so bad since you're theoretically chipping into the slope of the green. I just think the only guy who's going to miss there on this hole, given its length and the amount of right-to-left feed from the kickslope, is a bomber who fires at the flag instead of using the contours. And I think it's perfectly fine to complicate his position with a bunker, in this case. Going back to the short game interest on hand here, it actually sounds kind of fun to try and hit wild left-to-right spinning bunker shots from that spot and try to take advantage of the green contours... although the sand at the 'mand isn't especially "spinny" really.
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 14 in progress
« Reply #164 on: November 28, 2022, 05:53:00 PM »
We're hitting the home stretch. While I would continue to encourage discussion of any and all holes up to this point, we should all try to catch up to Ken and get to 15.


I just honestly don't know about this hole. I really don't know. I mean, it's a big sprawling fairway off the tee. Then the target gets a little smaller and a lot more awkward on the second shot. It felt like a very difficult layup... and you want to hit the layup well, because I'm not sure I've ever seen a green in my life where hitting the right portion matters so much.


This is truly one of the most one-of-a-kind disorienting holes I've ever played. Things are free and easy on the tee shot (although even that proved complicated when Jake hit a near-perfect ball down the right side that we never found). The rest of the hole is seriously toothy and really unlike anything else I've ever played.
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 15 in progress
« Reply #165 on: November 28, 2022, 09:20:09 PM »
I said my peace for this hole prematurely but I will agree with Jason.  After the tee shot this hole will jar you in a few ways!

Ken

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 15 in progress
« Reply #166 on: November 29, 2022, 12:31:29 PM »
#14 is certainly the king of the par 3s at Landmand.


#14 grabs your attention a full 2 holes in advance.  You can see it in the distance waving at you.


The tee shot is exhilarating.  A properly struck ball takes a long time to roll-out and reach its conclusion. 


When you get to the 15th tee you can watch the next group hit their shots and hoot and holler.


It is the most entertaining spot on the golf course.


14 is one of the most fun Redans that I have played.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 01:13:02 PM by Morgan Clawson »

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 15 in progress
« Reply #167 on: November 29, 2022, 01:03:54 PM »
The 2nd shot at #15 will be blind or partially blind for many. By John Mayhugh



The dynamic 15th green by Morgan Clawson
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 01:10:45 PM by Morgan Clawson »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 15 in progress
« Reply #168 on: November 30, 2022, 11:11:49 AM »
This looks very difficult to me.  Are there reports of big numbers on this hole?  Even if each of the lobes of this green are larger than regular greens, they still fall off dramatically on most sides.

This hole has a bit of that Tamalpais thing, which maybe only San Francisco Bay Area natives understand.  The largest mountain in Marin County north of San Francisco is Mt. Tamalpais, which has been described as looking like a maiden sleeping or reclining.  This last picture here by Morgan Clawson looks a bit like a sleeping woman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountains_named_The_Sleeping_Lady
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 02:19:24 PM by John Kirk »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 14 in progress
« Reply #169 on: November 30, 2022, 02:26:49 PM »

As a total side bar, Landmand is the first course I've ever experienced with turf covered sprinkler heads in the greens.  The greens are so massive in many cases, there would be no way to get irrigation on the green pad without internal heads.



Are you sure that is true?  We have had to use them occasionally when building a big green, and I've certainly seen them on some other "big" modern courses.  But if you aren't looking for them, you might well not notice.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landmand merits discussion - Hole 15 in progress New
« Reply #170 on: November 30, 2022, 02:44:53 PM »
 The 15th, for me, was the problematic hole at Landmand and led to a lengthy, respectful and constructive conversation with Rob Collins. It's 640 from the tips, but we played it from 580 and 555 respectively.


 The tee shot, a short forced carry to a seriously wide landing zone, split by a narrow parallel bunker 20yds long  slicing through its middle at or about 265yds out. To the hazard's left side is a narrower and lower fairway that, by virtue of its depressed terrain blinds out any view of 2/3 the green. The right, elevated, side offers a better look, but both areas remind the average length hitter they have 280-330yds (all uphill) to a very big two-tier green, with a perpendicular spine dissecting the middle.


 The second shot is where the disappointment begins. The average, or short hitter, is asked to hit an absolutely precise shot of 180-210yds into a narrow, severely-canted gully sandwiched between several yawing bunkers that all 60-100yds short of the green. Even with any success of staying on the grass, the majority of the green The only option to this shot is try to hit and carry the ball 230yds ...OVER a huge field of native grasses and bushes...only to land 20yds short of the green in greenside depression....all of which is 100% blind to the golfer in the nearly all areas of the landing zone, or lay -up short of the bunkered neck with a 175-185yd blind shot. The first time player can hit two reasonably good shots and end up totally pooched. Only the bomber has any good chance of even successfully navigating these features.


  In our group we had two West Point Golf Team Captains who should've considered joining the Air Force (where they'd easily be nicknamed, B-1 and B-52). They, like Rob himself, bombed their tee balls 290-340 each rip. On 15, we had only one par, and 3-4 double-bogeys or higher. The first go-round was no better. The group had eagled, birdied or parred the other 3-shotters.


 My biggest criticism of this hole was the blindness-to and proximity-of the native areas along the right. I have no issues with blind shots for the most part, but this was an automatic lost ball hazard with no visual warning whatsoever. Conveying that to Rob was easy. He was open and amenable to criticism (didn't hurt that our appreciation for the other seventeen holes was considerable). He walked me through the hole's desired strategy and ultimately realized that while it was certainly strong and representative of he and Tad's design principles, the criticism was eminently fair and its flaws evident.

 The easy fix would be to grass and maintain some larger part of it. The other might be to soften the cant in the neck of the pinching approach bunkers. Both would make more economic sense than raising the LZ portions of the fairway. Even the placement of red lateral hazard stakes along the left edge of the native would help. All-in-all, and despite it being misidentified by a fellow panelist, it was a hole that simply didn't work as well as the other 17.


 
 




« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 03:03:46 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

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