Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jason Thurman on September 15, 2022, 07:15:07 PM
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Ok people, do like we used to do and let's talk through this course.
Starting with hole 1. Probably the most comfortable tee shot until the 10th. Unless maybe you play further back than the chicken shit tees I play. Somebody else would know.
Cool green. Good preview of what's to come in that regard. My first putt could've been played 20 feet right or 15 left. I went right and lagged it well the first play - that was nice. Subsequent play stunk.
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It's a friendly start of a tee shot. You can probably carry the bunkers to set up an easier second shot (better visibility), but you don't have to. We didn't have much wind, but that tee shot and subsequent ones would be a lot more worrisome into the wind. The green is one that you really have to pay attention to hole location to set up your approach, but then that's most of the greens!
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The first tee sets the stage for what you are about to experience. You can see for miles in the Nebraska prairie. The fairway is so wide you'd be embarrassed to miss it. I wasn't certain I could carry the bunkers so I hit it left and was left with a semi-blind uphill second shot. I could not see the bottom of the flagstick for the third shot and the green was full of movement. It is a benign beginning but a precursor of what is to come,
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Remember the audience though. It’s a ton of public golfers playing a big track for the first time. Those bunkers at the front edge of he fairway eat well. They are visual warning placed in a manner to encourage you to play your own game.
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Carrying the bunkers is probably doable if you are on the right tee but how many people trust their game enough on the first tee to take that on? The greens are so large you really have to figure out your yardages because if you just shoot for the middle of the greens you are going to be left with long puts. Our pin was on the back on #1, which was a couple of clubs difference from the front of the green.
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As the short hitter of the group, and hitting from the forward (black) tees, I played well left of the bunkers on my tee shot. The pin was front left just behind the greenside bunker - required a delicate shot to get close without going into the bunker.
I couldn't see the flag on my 2nd shot, but got close on my 3rd and one putted. Green is relatively flat in that area.
With the first part of the hole downhill and the 2nd part uphill, it's not exactly a "gentle handshake" - but it does serve as a good example of what's coming.
Hard fairway to miss unless you go straight at the bunkers.
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When you are driving in from a long distance it’s all you can do to get to the first tee. Aim way left and don’t expect your legs to help. Perfect start to the trip.
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The first time player is likely to find the second shot problematic if the prevailing south wind is blowing. They will play left off the tee and likely have a blind second shot. They will need to favor the left side on the second shot, over the left fairway bunker. If they push the 2nd, with a south wind and combined with a left to right sloped fairway, the ball will likely roll into the...I don't know what to call it; the half bare dirt or long grass/stuff.
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Let's get to 2 quickly. The course is routed for that, after all.
The tee shot provides the course's first true outside-the-box moment. Standing on the tee, I could hear my weekend buddies back home asking "Where in the hell are we supposed to hit it?"
I found the answer pretty straightforward though. This introduces a dichotomy at play at Landmand - as audacious as the course gets, the path to success often is fairly simple. Stay left of the bunker right. No need to take on undue risk challenging the bunker left. Hit straight at it with something that will stay short, and leave yourself a simple approach with a wedge or short iron. The green looks savage but holds shots well.
Hacks like me are prone to bad shots, but isn't this one just a simple test of execution? Is there any reason to take a different tact?
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Gary raises a good point - the gunsch or wooga or whatever we're going to call it at Landmand needs a name...
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Hole 2 gives some visual cues. There is a crease in the fairway that hints at a safe line of charm. The subtle tilt to the right is a warning.
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Let's get to 2 quickly. The course is routed for that, after all.
The tee shot provides the course's first true outside-the-box moment. Standing on the tee, I could hear my weekend buddies back home asking "Where in the hell are we supposed to hit it?"
I found the answer pretty straightforward though. This introduces a dichotomy at play at Landmand - as audacious as the course gets, the path to success often is fairly simple. Stay left of the bunker right. No need to take on undue risk challenging the bunker left. Hit straight at it with something that will stay short, and leave yourself a simple approach with a wedge or short iron. The green looks savage but holds shots well.
Hacks like me are prone to bad shots, but isn't this one just a simple test of execution? Is there any reason to take a different tact?
There is a reason to take a different tact. If you challenge the bunker on the left and hit it left of that, there is a "speed slot" there and your ball will likely funnel all the way onto the green. Big risk, but big reward!
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David, have you seen that happen? I tried that shot once the intensity of Mashie competition gave way to a hit-and-giggle skins game. I hit it about as well as I could have and flew the bunker, which I need to mention because who knows how many more times in my life I'm going to carry a ball 250 yards. I ended up with a very downhill 95 yarder.
Are you telling me I'm just not a long enough hitter to pull this one off even from the chicken shit tees I insisted on playing? Totally fair if so, but I'm not sure that play is viable for anyone other than, well, guys who don't even think twice when faced with a 250+ yard carry. That's a pretty small subset of golfers, and the numbers get more stringent the further back the tees go.
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Cal flew the bunker on the left and ended up on the fringe of the 2nd when we were playing for fun. Good play if you are feeling pretty good and can fly it. I actually liked to hit just short of the left bunker where I could still see the green. Short shot from there and takes out all the trouble and potentially right kicks when going through the slot or over the right bunker.
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David, have you seen that happen? I tried that shot once the intensity of Mashie competition gave way to a hit-and-giggle skins game. I hit it about as well as I could have and flew the bunker, which I need to mention because who knows how many more times in my life I'm going to carry a ball 250 yards. I ended up with a very downhill 95 yarder.
Are you telling me I'm just not a long enough hitter to pull this one off even from the chicken shit tees I insisted on playing? Totally fair if so, but I'm not sure that play is viable for anyone other than, well, guys who don't even think twice when faced with a 250+ yard carry. That's a pretty small subset of golfers, and the numbers get more stringent the further back the tees go.
Jason,
I was there the same day as David and 2 players in our afternoon group hit their drives into the slot (from the tips mind you) and ended up wishing 5yds of the green's edge. These guys were big hitters (inc. Rob Collins), but it reminded me that that the rest of us mere mortals should be choosing closer tee boxes to have the most fun.
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Gary raises a good point - the gunsch or wooga or whatever we're going to call it at Landmand needs a name...
We were there last Friday.
I suggest we call it "The Corn."
(Thematically it works.)
All I know is you can't chip out of it like a regular greenside chip.
Or I couldn't.
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Cal flew the bunker on the left and ended up on the fringe of the 2nd when we were playing for fun. Good play if you are feeling pretty good and can fly it. I actually liked to hit just short of the left bunker where I could still see the green. Short shot from there and takes out all the trouble and potentially right kicks when going through the slot or over the right bunker.
Yep, that is a speed slot and "Line of Charm". That said, the right side bunker marks a "Line of Woe..."
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The only 'problem' for Hole #2 is that when you are on the green trying to read a putt, it's too easy to lose focus if you happen to look to the south.
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If we had a picture to go with the hole number it might facilitate discussion. I’m blessed to never know and rarely care the hole number of which I play. Its an odd affliction that I don’t care to cure.
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Here's a pic of 2 from Tim Gavrich - Golf pass. This seems to be taken from just past the left bunker.
You can see how the safe shot over/in between the bunkers will tend to collect towards the right. The left, hero, shot can tumble off the knob on the left, though there is a risk that it will end up left off the green and that's really bad.
(If I'm not allowed to cross post this, let me know)
https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/photo-galleries/photos-every-hole-at-the-brand-new-landmand-golf-club
(https://golf-pass.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/265f169/2147483647/strip/true/crop/4032x2267+0+379/resize/900x506!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgolf-pass-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fcd%2Fc5%2F5b28ab904e0b977ee78c750ab9bf%2Flandmand-2.JPG)
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The only 'problem' for Hole #2 is that when you are on the green trying to read a putt, it's too easy to lose focus if you happen to look to the south.
Quite a reveal
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Honestly I was thinking "corn" too, Bruce. It's more accurate than 98% of the uses of "heather" when it's inaccurate, and it's accurate 25% of the time.
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Landmand #2 tee shot with our pal Tye
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52361604182_f32b66d27c_c.jpg)
Landmand 2 Fairway
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52362967090_a0857c9b22_c.jpg)
Landmand 2 Green
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52361604222_a5b85787c9_c.jpg)
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I would like to see some form of explanation of pin placement on the #2 tee box. An arrow or something would do fine. One could derive an advantage by going left of the bunker for a few pin positions, but I'm never going to default to that angle unless I know what I'm hitting to.
Because of that, it struck me as one of the more one-dimensional holes on the course. I'm always going to try to hit the drive between the bunkers and hit a wedge in.
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Landmand #2 tee shot with our pal Tye
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52361604182_f32b66d27c_c.jpg)
Landmand 2 Fairway
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52362967090_a0857c9b22_c.jpg)
Landmand 2 Green
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52361604222_a5b85787c9_c.jpg)
Was Tye the young man mentioned on the Rob Collins podcast (TGH 90 -- very good interview if you haven't listened)? That backswing would seem like a fit for the story.
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Vaughn's photo with Tye teeing off is a pretty good illustration of what you see at the tee shot. From the tips I hit 3H in that saddle between the two bunkers and had a clear view of the green on the approach. This is probably the highest percentage play.
A shot over the left bunker from back is going to have to be absolutely roasted (270-280 carry?). Land short of the left bunker and you have a blind shot into the approach. Anything hit through the saddle or over the right bunkers is going to filter off into an awkward approach from the fairway, or into the sedge.
On Monday afternoon we played from green / yellow tees and the tee shot can clear the left bunker if you can carry it 250 -260. That berm on the left (beyond the bunker) steers everything down to the green. Go left of the bunker and it probably misses the berm and shoots in the sedge.
That hump in front of the green adds a degree of difficulty to the shot facing those that landed on the right side of the fairway.
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Landmand #2 tee shot with our pal Tye
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52361604182_f32b66d27c_c.jpg)
Landmand 2 Fairway
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52362967090_a0857c9b22_c.jpg)
Landmand 2 Green
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52361604222_a5b85787c9_c.jpg)
Was Tye the young man mentioned on the Rob Collins podcast (TGH 90 -- very good interview if you haven't listened)? That backswing would seem like a fit for the story.
Hey Buck and yes, The Treadwell is the Junior referenced in the Pos with Tad. He is fun to watch. The Redan was a revelation to him. We’ll share that if/when the discussion reaches Hole 14.
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Ok, what is the best par 4 in Nebraska and why is it 3 at Landmand?
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I could never rate an uphill par 4 as the "best" - however, I liked that little creek/scar thing running down from the front left of the green. I liked it so much I hit into it on both rounds! Since I'm left-handed I had a good place to stand - for a right-hander the ball could be well below your feet with an awkward stance.
Best play is right of the creek-thing with a clear opening into the green. Left brings the bunkers into play if you miss short.
It's rated as #1 handicap on a windy day - fortunately we didn't experience that.
Fun hole for me.
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I could never rate an uphill par 4 as the "best" - however, I liked that little creek/scar thing running down from the front left of the green. I liked it so much I hit into it on both rounds! Since I'm left-handed I had a good place to stand - for a right-hander the ball could be well below your feet with an awkward stance.
Best play is right of the creek-thing with a clear opening into the green. Left brings the bunkers into play if you miss short.
It's rated as #1 handicap on a windy day - fortunately we didn't experience that.
Fun hole for me.
I hit into the scar thrice. I guess I didn't fear it enough off the tee.
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Honestly I was thinking "corn" too, Bruce. It's more accurate than 98% of the uses of "heather" when it's inaccurate, and it's accurate 25% of the time.
Yes, I got an earful of heather on my recent US trip and didn't see any. But isn't corn raising the same issue...unless the rough is corn? Depending on the lie of my ball and my disposition it could rough, crap or shit.
Ciao
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Because I can't find an updated version online, here's the card:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52366138396_f5b1c93a64.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52365200127_918c1415d7.jpg)
This was one of the shortest 7200s I've seen, whereas Omaha felt like one of the longest 7000s in the country.
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Ok, what is the best par 4 in Nebraska and why is it 3 at Landmand?
I wanted to be contrarian and pick some par four at Landmand that's better, but damn this is a pretty good golf hole.
The beauty of the hole for me is that there is always a motivation to challenge the barranca. It compares favorably to another version of that feature found at 14 at Sutton Bay, where the left side of the cut is the shortcut to reach the green in two. There, there isn't really a reason to challenge the feature - the angle isn't better and there aren't any particularly awkward lies across the fairway - so anything that ends up in the cut is a wayward shot. At Landmand, whichever fairway you aim for, the best part of it to be on is near the hazard. I heard a surprisingly high number of players (given that this was a GCA event) exclaim that they hit the shot they wanted on this tee box, and of those swings it was a pretty even split of balls in Position A and balls which required some, shall we say, crafty recovery.
Also, shoutout to one of the more understated greens on the course, which will almost certainly go underappreciated because it dared to exercise a bit of restraint.
I would like to know, though, did anyone go left on purpose because it was the smart play? I saw a couple of people play there, but only due to mishits or the desire to see that side of the course. The challenge of these holes is generally ensuring that there are compelling reasons to play from either side. Besides potentially a pin deep right, I don't necessarily see the need for the left fairway.
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I would fall in with the premise that 3 is a front runner for best par 4. For me, hard to beat the shock and drama of the reveal as you crest the hill on hole 2 fairway on the way to the 2nd green. Without prior knowledge, while standing on the 2nd tee, you would be are unaware of the valley lurking around the corner from the 2nd hole. First sight of that big valley makes you immediately ponder the various pathways for your ball. "What is the line and which side of the barranca/Dry Creek bed do you favor?" The risk reward of flying the large bunker carved into the hillside to hug the right side is both enticing and sobering. The assumption even at first glance is that right side pays dividends.. and pain.
Left side is safer but that leaves you blocked from a direct shot to the green.
The whole thing is visually unexpected, dramatic and demands repeated anticipatory glances while you are still trying to navigate to or putt on the 2nd green. It also gives you a visual forecast of the potential drama lurking atop the ridge above #4.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52366824690_7cfb866eab_c.jpg)
Walk from #2 Green to #3 Tee V. Halyard Photo
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52366824705_d4fcb6e9f2_c.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158752511@N05/6V1PmX98LN)
Landmand #3 V. Halyard Photo (https://www.flickr.com/gp/158752511@N05/H20T49984Y)
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Jake,
I agree with you in that there really wasn't a compelling reason to go left, especially if you're like me and your miss is to the left. Pull the shot and you're hitting from the sedge with little hope of getting to the green.
When faced with a hazard in the middle of the fairway my "go to" move is to employ the "George Constanza Law of Opposites". Aim directly down the line of the creek bed and watch your drive sail left or right. Very rarely does this strategy ever really fail.
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Does there really need to be a reason to try to go left?
The barranca challenges the ideal position. The short grass left of it provides some forgiveness for a pull. I don't think it would be a better hole if everything left of the barranca was corn instead, even if my intended line wouldn't change.
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I think its important to mention how great the first hole is purely from a visual and emotional standpoint.
Your first glimpse of #1 from the club house is very impactful. The green seems incredibly far away, thus introducing you to the vastness of the the site.
The uphill rise of the hole helps to convey that you are starting a great journey.
The large green with the false front tongue and the enormous greenside bunker are alluring.
King & Collins laid it all out there for you to see on #1, and to great effect.
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#2 is a good and unique hole. I like that you can hit a variety of clubs and lines from the tee.
The little mound in the front center of the green certainly makes the second shot more thoughtful.
Great photo from Doug Bolls:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52368011532_7ea28c7a23_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nMzKmy)
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#3 is a real stunner from the tee box.
The shorter tees line-up more with the left half of the hole with the longer tees lining up on the right side.
I played from a shorter tee (yellow), which brings the barranca more in play I believe.
Kudos to King & Collins for adjusting the tee shot difficulty for the different sets of tees throughout the course.
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/q186/tomwilliamsen/5B0CF618-AFA9-4D5B-8327-9D474312A147(2).heic?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/q186/tomwilliamsen/5B0CF618-AFA9-4D5B-8327-9D474312A147(2).heic?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)I found no reason to go left. It is a really good hole. The drive is not the hard part. The second shot to this very sloping undulating green is the test.
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It wouldn't be a meaningfully better hole if the left fairway was corn, but I don't think it would be meaningfully worse. Despite my comment, I'm in no way saying that fairway should be taken out from an architectural perspective. Just raising a thought I have standing on that tee box.
I also can't help but think about this place as a going concern, and a few of us discussed the operations side over the course of the weekend. Making this work economically could be a challenge, given location/lack of nearby complements/20-minute tee times/proposed pricing structure/short season, etc. (If anyone who understands the plan more than I do wants to correct me, please do so.) They are also maintaining a lot of grass. From that perspective, we might think critically about a few places where extra fairway/green isn't adding a ton of value to the architecture.
Just nitpicking what I agree is a great golf hole.
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It wouldn't be a meaningfully better hole if the left fairway was corn, but I don't think it would be meaningfully worse. Despite my comment, I'm in no way saying that fairway should be taken out from an architectural perspective. Just raising a thought I have standing on that tee box.
I also can't help but think about this place as a going concern, and a few of us discussed the operations side over the course of the weekend. Making this work economically could be a challenge, given location/lack of nearby complements/20-minute tee times/proposed pricing structure/short season, etc. (If anyone who understands the plan more than I do wants to correct me, please do so.) They are also maintaining a lot of grass. From that perspective, we might think critically about a few places where extra fairway/green isn't adding a ton of value to the architecture.
Just nitpicking what I agree is a great golf hole.
Grandfather, you are wise and might I share one thought with you and Thurm regarding the left fairway.
We did not have the wind on blast when we played this past weekend.
On the days when it blows hard, given this is a retail golf course, the left side of the fairway keeps a higher percentage of folks in play.
I'm thinking that piece of land keeps folks in the game and relieved they are not part of the fall harvest.
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Because I can't find an updated version online, here's the card:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52366138396_f5b1c93a64.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52365200127_918c1415d7.jpg)
This was one of the shortest 7200s I've seen, whereas Omaha felt like one of the longest 7000s in the country.
Was that a misprint on the original card or some interesting psychology. Red are the Tiger tees and Black the all-the-way-up ones?
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Number 3 is my personal favorite hole at Landmand. I love non-sand "hazards" and I think the grassed-over dry creek running down the middle of the fairway is both functional and attractive.
I'm going to cautiously dub the third green one of two "reach-around" greens on the course, with the other being #9. On both greens you have this back-right swoop feature with a mound on the inside of the boomerang. There's no getting at those flags from the popular side of the fairway, so on both holes, the left landing area is going to be preferred. It's probably a 1 in 10 situation given the size of the greens and the variability of the hole locations, but I would venture that if those left-side landing areas didn't exist on either hole, those specialty hole locations wouldn't really be viable.
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3 is truly an amazing hole. So good.
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Was that a misprint on the original card or some interesting psychology. Red are the Tiger tees and Black the all-the-way-up ones?
Kalen,
Red is the power color in Nebraska.
(https://images3.teeshirtpalace.com/images/productImages/brc4586994-big-red-country-nebraska--navy-tt-garment.jpg)
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It wouldn't be a meaningfully better hole if the left fairway was corn, but I don't think it would be meaningfully worse. Despite my comment, I'm in no way saying that fairway should be taken out from an architectural perspective. Just raising a thought I have standing on that tee box.
I also can't help but think about this place as a going concern, and a few of us discussed the operations side over the course of the weekend. Making this work economically could be a challenge, given location/lack of nearby complements/20-minute tee times/proposed pricing structure/short season, etc. (If anyone who understands the plan more than I do wants to correct me, please do so.) They are also maintaining a lot of grass. From that perspective, we might think critically about a few places where extra fairway/green isn't adding a ton of value to the architecture.
Just nitpicking what I agree is a great golf hole.
Jake -
A few other things to consider from an business costs standpoint:
The Andersen's already owned the land, so there weren't any acquisition costs there.
The area where the golf course is wasn't being actively farmed, so they didn't have to give-up any corn or beans revenue.
The club house is blissfully modest. I believe they are using an existing barn to store the equipment. And using a food truck is a smart move too.
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Ok, what is the best par 4 in Nebraska and why is it 3 at Landmand?
I would like to know, though, did anyone go left on purpose because it was the smart play? I saw a couple of people play there, but only due to mishits or the desire to see that side of the course. The challenge of these holes is generally ensuring that there are compelling reasons to play from either side. Besides potentially a pin deep right, I don't necessarily see the need for the left fairway.
I deliberately went left on #3 during my first round and can now tell you that there is absolutely no reason to be left. I don't see any advantage there no matter where the pin would be set.
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Let's get on to hole 4.
Surprisingly, I think it's the hardest hole for a first-timer that we've seen to this point. The big risks on the first 3 holes present themselves clearly, and extra forgiveness lurks for some errant shots. The 4th fairway has a tendency to shrug balls away to the right, and the green doesn't reveal itself as one of the course's great hazards until you reach it.
The green is reachable for big hitters. Certainly no more than a drive-and-pitch. Even a long iron off the tee will put most players in range of a wedge approach. Almost regardless of tact taken, the approach will be very challenging.
I respect the hole. I fear it a little. I don't feel great affection for it. Maybe that's kind of the point. Certainly not your average "grab your driver and see what happens" short par 4.
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Was that a misprint on the original card or some interesting psychology. Red are the Tiger tees and Black the all-the-way-up ones?
Kalen,
Red is the power color in Nebraska.
(https://images3.teeshirtpalace.com/images/productImages/brc4586994-big-red-country-nebraska--navy-tt-garment.jpg)
Eric,
Not much power in NE these days. Losing to my Mildcats in Dublin foretold the dismissal of their Coach. Thank goodness the not-so Big Red is around so that we're not the worst team in the B1G West
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Hole 4 is the head shaker. Looks so short and innocent off the tee but wow, not an easy par. I still think back to this hole more than any of the others. The green is just so...out there. I played it to the right side of the fairway both times and didn't try to approach from the left, more inline with the green. Maybe the left is the better route.
Visually, from the right, it appears both of the bunkers are close to the green. In reality, the left bunker is tucked against the green and the right bunker further from the green and hides the large collection area short/right of the green. There is very little room for error to keep an approach shot on the green from the right side. The landing area from the right is small. Short is a roll back to the collection area. If you hit the green past the hump but short of the pin, the hump will likely kick you long and off the green.
I'm not sure a pin could be placed on the hump that runs the length of the green on the bunker side. That's over half the green that may not accommodate a pin placement. Maybe if the hump was shaved down a foot.
When you walk away and up the hill towards 5, you look back and wonder: How do I get to a back pin position? Can I fly it? What if I'm short and on the front, can I put around the boomerang? #4 is a green that I'd like to spend some time trying different approaches and shots around the green to see what works.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52371949745_f8e7490566_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nMVW3M)
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It's probably not the case for a pin cut on the first 15 or so yards of green (which seems pretty dicey as a possible cupping area, anyway), but it seems you can bang an approach into the hill at the back edge all day and have the ball roll back onto the green, leaving a pretty reasonable birdie putt.
The intrigue of the hole lies in calculating and executing that shot, which is as much a mental as a physical task. The hole is teaching you to be confident in hitting a shot 15 or so yards longer than you think you need to, or else. I think that's a pretty interesting golf challenge. Both days I played it, I saw other golfers end up short because they just couldn't bring themselves to hit that approach hard enough. If you can clear that hurdle, I think it's not too hard a hole most days.
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Like the 2nd, there are numerous lines and options off the tee. Very unique green! Putts and chips must be struck carefully or a big number may come into play.
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Four has some of my favorite shaping on the course. Standing on the tee and the green, it looks like two different holes.
There's a lot of ways to get to the green, and if you're thoughtful you can pick the one which leaves the most comfortable approach. Personally, I like the right side where I can hit into the shallow part of the green with some backstop. Others may prefer to play it from ninety degrees over. Both make you sweat a little bit, especially once you know about the pit of despair. But hey, you have a wedge in hand, and few wedge shots actually make most players nervous. Fair game.
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I'm a bit late so bear with me as I catch up to the group!
Over 3 1/2 rounds, I played the Red tees at 7200 yards, the White tees at 6775 and the Green tees at 6440. The biggest difference between tees for me was certainly the par 3's. The fairways played firm and fast.
Hole #1 - Great starter with the 1st and 18th fairways playing like TOC! If the first few shots are a gentle handshake, the green provides a bit of a kick in the crotch!
Hole #2 - Like many have said here's the first bit of uncomfortable in figuring out the line and distance off the tee. The pitch of the green moving away from you makes the approach shot interesting!
Hole #3 - I can't provide any more commentary than has been said. The dry creek bed from the left edge of the green down the center of the hole is very interesting.
Hole #4 - This is one of those rare holes where you finish playing it your first time and say, "man I wish I knew all this was here before." Then on subsequent plays you say, "man, I wish I didn't know what's up here!" The green will generate a lot of discussion and I think grumbling from the general public who won't "get it." You're asked to hit a very precise shot, favoring a little long. Pull it off, birdie or par. Don't pull it off, bogey or much worse in a hurry!!
Looking forward to more discussion on a blast of a course!!
Ken
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Anyone who has visited Landmand will understand that it took a little longer to move the discussion from hole 4 to hole 5, as opposed to making the transition with previous holes. I've seen numerous reviews praise the short green-to-tee transitions, and how they maintain some walkability on this HUGE golf course. While that's certainly true for many transitions, the course also has a few serious hikes. The journey from 4 green to 5 tee is the first of these.
As a sucker for long par 3s, though, I very much enjoy reaching the 5th tee. A broad-shouldered par 3 playing from high-point to high-point, it offers plenty of safe routes to a huge target, but dots the path with a few funky hazards and a green with the size and contour to really separate sloppy approaches from accurate ones. A lot can happen here. I watched funneling slopes steer balls to safety, while others fed balls away. And the variety of recoveries on offer stood out in the rounds I played.
Although it lacks the audacity of some of Landmand's more outside-the-box holes, I find it almost endlessly interesting. It might get the least attention of all the par 3s, but might also be the best hole of the bunch.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52373677617_51873979ea_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nN5MFF)
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This may be the easiest of the par 3s.
Pretty straightforward hole with one of Landmand's best views.
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When I stood on this tee and saw the endless prairie spread out in front of me, I understood that the scale of the course had to be immense. It fits the landscape.
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Tommy, that's a good point. As big and expansive as Landmand is, and even as big as it looks from the clubhouse, the 5th tee gives the first really great reveal. You spend the first 4 holes sorta tucked in valleys and up against ridges, and then all of a sudden you reach 5 tee and you just see golf everywhere around you.
It's a little overwhelming when you're walking - hard to believe you have so much ground ahead to cover, physically.
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I heard someone refer to the fifth green as one of the most boring on the course, and while that may be the case I strongly disagree with any derogatory connotation that entails. On a course that generally throws everything at you and the nuance of putting is generally "how much break" instead of "is there break," I found a lot of trouble reading the broad, sweeping slopes here - especially from a hundred feet away.
It's hard to look past the redan as the star par three, but this is a strong one-shotter that I could easily argue as the best on the course given how much more day-to-day flexibility there is in pin and tee locations.
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Lovely. I really like long par 3s with big greens. The bunker placement makes it look a bit different than the typical long par 3.
Thanks for providing some pictures. This is fun.
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John,
That small centerline bunker in front of the green, reminded me of another par 3 5th hole on a different course in a neighboring state! ;)
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#5 looks justifiably huge from the tee, but what impressed me is approaching the green on your walk. It’s amazing how severe the slopes are at ground level. Massive hump in the middle of the green provides for some very interesting long putts. Also found this green very difficult to read even on shorter putts.
With such varying pin locations that could alter the yardage by 30-40 and the presence of wind (which atypically we really didn’t see) this tee shot can be REALLY interesting.
Ken
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Lots of uphill / sidehill lies. [Two Sandpros in the distance for scale]. Green has a sizeable backboard that does a pretty good job of containing low incoming approach shots.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52379917319_65e674b448_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nNCLwK)DSC00723 (https://flic.kr/p/2nNCLwK) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
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Man you guys move fast. A few impressions from the previous holes.
1- A very attractive tee shot with plenty of room for a stiff swing. Missing left leaves a blind approach/lay-up and aiming right requires solid contact. I think this hole has the most impressive bunkering on the course. Standing on the tee you can see the "milk carton" bunker short of 18 green. I didn't see anyone hit it there off the first tee but it will probably happen. The bunkering short left of the 1st green is also ruggedly shaped. Wildly contoured first green and false front.
2 - Loads of options off the tee.
3 - Favorite tee shot as it changed the most depending on the tee box and it was just darn pretty. The ditch was a unique hazard that provided a wide range of lies and I really liked that it carried all the way up alongside the green.
4 - Let the controversy begin. I'm still working out my thoughts on this one.
5 - Since the green is so large and the shot so long, this produces one of my favorite shots in golf, the prolonged flight, bounce and roll out. Unless you top it. This was when I first noticed the difficulty in figuring out the greens. The large slopes mixed with micro contours really made reading the greens tricky. I also think I saw the first blind putt from the other side of the knob in the middle of the green.
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As a final word on 5 - I echo everyone on the interest of the putting surface. It's not the craziest green at Landmand by any stretch, but it's among my favorites. Its size makes a GIR a little more realistic than usual for a ~200 yard par 3, but there's enough going on internally that any sort of misplayed shot faces a recovery as difficult as any pitch shot, even if that recovery is played with a putter.
Speaking of recoveries played with a putter - my putter sandy from the left bunker was a real highlight that I'd like to put on the record here.
We move from a huge target on one of Landmand's shortest holes, to a series of discerning targets on one of its longest. The 6th is a hell of a hole and the only moment when Landmand presents "tight" shots to fairly narrow landing areas. You can reach in two, but you need to take risk to do it. Not among my favorite holes on the course - I think it's mostly a transition hole on a tough section of property. But I also think it's essential to the "complete test" at Landmand - it challenges accuracy and positioning in a way that no other hole on the course really does. It's like cardamom - not my favorite spice, but absolutely essential in some recipes.
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A few thoughts:
Fourth: It's a 300ish yard par 4, so you should expect to have a challenge on the approach. It's easier to hit and hold than the 10th at Riviera - that's for sure. Seems like playing left over the fairway bunker would make for the easiest approaches, but the carry from the green tees (230) makes it a less likely path for shorter hitters. The bank behind helps restrain shots that go a little long. Funky shaped green, but nothing controversial.
Fifth: I certainly have a better shot of a GIR on this than most 200 yard par 3s. I liked how the tees changed the angle of the tee shot along with the distance. The small bunker in front of the center of the green looks best avoided, but favoring one side or the other feels tough to do, even though there is a huge amount of room.
Sixth: A huge fairway but maybe the toughest tee shot yet. There's a huge swale on the left that needs to be carried (maybe 220 from the green tees) or else you have a long, blind second shot from a steep uphill lie. Lies are flatter to the right and not as much of a carry needed. The second shot plays narrow with a side sloping fairway and inconveniently placed bunkers. The green follows that slope making a safer miss to the left into a tough approach.
I don't really have time to post photos right now, but if anyone wants to look at a bunch of unlabeled photos, message me and I'll share a dropbox link.
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I guess I need to go buy some cardamom. Maybe it's not as enormous as much of the course, but I appreciate a par five that doesn't allow me to turn my brain off for half of it. The rest of the par fives are good, but unless I missed something, the driving strategy is to bash it as far as possible. Here, there's a convincing argument to laying back, but that swale is a part of the equation.
One can use the slope to stop a long shot left, but the slope to the back right of the green should cause a fair bit of fear.
Maybe six is a bit of a downer because of its relative narrowness, but I have a suspicion that if the rest of the course were built to this scale this would be seen as a standout hole.
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Jake, you make a good point - this is a hole that doesn't let you turn your brain off. I can probably count on my fingers the number of times I've hit less than driver on a par 5 that I thought was a halfway decent hole. 2 of them came at hole 6 on my first two plays at Landmand, and I'd have slapped 4 iron out there a third time if I wasn't pushing to keep up with you, George, and Joe in a skins game.
It offers 3 very interesting shots... or 2 supremely nerve-racking ones if you want to go that route. I don't LOVE any of those shots, but that's because they're tough ones! I don't love the options I have available! They're interesting shots though, and full of options and funky risks.
This stretch from 6-8 is a really interesting one from a routing standpoint, I think. It feels like the land where 6 and 15 sit is a bit of a bottleneck that had to be traversed to connect the stretch from 7-14 with the section of the property where the early and late holes sit. Seems like the routing pretty much had to go in the direction it goes when we leave 5 green. Maybe 6 would feel more manageable as a par 4, but what would that do to 7 and 8? As is, those are probably three of the most controversial holes on the course. But I'm not sure I see a routing option that would clearly improve this stretch - they're all holes that walk a very thin line for me, but I think I come out on the side of "I like it" with all three.
Which is sorta like cardamom, as a flavor.
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All that's been said about 6 is spot on. The prudent play from any of the tees is probably laying back with less than driver but, man, did this hole have my number.
The drive for me just feels awkward. Not in a bad way. It made me feel uncomfortable which I then proceeded to show with almost every tee shot! There is not a shot until the green I'd call comfortable. You have to fit your drive into the valley, negotiate around the massive bunkers then work your way to a green sloping away from you.
I did see the danger of bulkhead bunkers when my playing partner nearly took his own head off trying to get out to the green.
Is the uncomfortable nature of 6 (and also hole 7) due to they way the fairway tumbles in, out and over the valleys? Neither hole plays directly down the valley which really messed with me. I had a little of the same sensation on hole 3 but not nearly as pronounced in my mind's eye like 6 and 7.
Ken
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Ok... does anyone have thoughts on 7?
Should this green be blown up, or hung in the Louvre?
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It's nearly impossible for me to offer the definitive analysis without seeing a picture.
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Missing the green to the right is going to leave you with a high score. There's no way around it. The hole plays very differently from the back tees (red) than it does from the shorter tees. Get too close to the green and the approach becomes extremely delicate. The tee shot to the upper side of the left fairway is extremely difficult, but if you can swing it, the approach is much easier.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52392908527_f853bcc123_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nPMmn6)DSC00716 (https://flic.kr/p/2nPMmn6)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52393717979_bcce16b4d2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nPRuZa)DSC00714 (https://flic.kr/p/2nPRuZa) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52393948953_3a992bb65f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nPSFDt)DSC00713 (https://flic.kr/p/2nPSFDt) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickrby Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
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The par 5 6th hole by John Mayhugh
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52395555546_2fca7f9360_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nQ1Vem)
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Ok... does anyone have thoughts on 7?
Should this green be blown up, or hung in the Louvre?
I'll take a stab at this having only seen pictures, but it looks awesome.
Almost like its conjuring a bit of Pasa 16 in the audacity of that green.
But...I really love quirk, and this hole seems to have plenty of it!
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I had a pretty bad experience on that green. The pin was on the middle tier and I had a short approach in. I was playing with hickories, so wasn't putting much backspin on the shots. On my first approach, I landed it about a foot from the hole and it released about 8 feet past and rocked up the backstop a little, then returned toward the hole... but it kept going and ended up back down in the fairway. Then I shifted strategies and bumped a 7i equivalent up the hill and back onto the middle tier. This one was right of the pin and didn't climb the tier as much, but again returned down off the green and essentially back in the same place. On my 3rd approach, I tried to lob it to the hole and finally got it to come to rest, but it felt like a stroke of luck. My playing partner missed the green left, chipped up and it went down off the green to the same collection area that I was in. Then it took him a couple from there before he finally got it to stick.
I'm not sure that this green works at modern green speeds in a way that is desirable. If I ever found myself on a tier above the hole, I'd definitely be reaching for my lob wedge.
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The par 5 6th hole by John Mayhugh
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52395555546_2fca7f9360_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nQ1Vem)
Thanks for this photo of #6 Morgan. Amazing how the severe down and up nature of the hole is difficult to capture in a photo. This view makes it look very tame!
Ken
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Great photos of #7 Cal.
Hole #4 will create discussion but hole #7 will create the controversy. That green is just wicked. The severity of the slopes, the crowned nature of the putting surface, the angle diagonally across the green for most approaches. I believe there will be more really big numbers on 7 than any other hole.
The friendliest pin locations are near the front of the green but this brings the false front into play. If the pin is back in around some of those large humps, putts could get really challenging. With a heavy wind, this green and its green speed could make ANY putt terrifying.
That’s OK. Take your medicine and move on to hole #8, a par 3 of 100 yards from the back tees. How hard could that be?!?
Ken
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Like the original version of Bandon Trails #14, this hole looks too severe for medal play. A one or two yard error on the approach to a center pin looks like it leaves a 40 yard uphill pitch over and over again. It's not clear there is a reasonably easy safe play to minimize the damage by playing the second, third, fourth or fifth shot away from trouble and attempting a longer two putt. Am I wrong? Can you play way left back behind the middle pin and get it to stay for a 40-50 putt?
The overall score for a round should not be unduly measured by one's performance on a single hole. It makes that hole too important.
If you're playing a match, then it's OK, and in fact this hole will speed up play as one player will gain a decisive advantage quickly. Looking for good rebuttals here.
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Great photos of #7 Cal.
Hole #4 will create discussion but hole #7 will create the controversy. That green is just wicked. The severity of the slopes, the crowned nature of the putting surface, the angle diagonally across the green for most approaches. I believe there will be more really big numbers on 7 than any other hole.
The friendliest pin locations are near the front of the green but this brings the false front into play. If the pin is back in around some of those large humps, putts could get really challenging. With a heavy wind, this green and its green speed could make ANY putt terrifying.
That’s OK. Take your medicine and move on to hole #8, a par 3 of 100 yards from the back tees. How hard could that be?!?
Ken
Have not seen Landmand in the flesh but the 7th popped out from the pictures. How much of that green is cuppable? Ballpark percentage?
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There are 2 cuppable tiers, so I'd say 35% ish.
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Like the original version of Bandon Trails #14, this hole looks too severe for medal play. A one or two yard error on the approach to a center pin looks like it leaves a 40 yard uphill pitch over and over again. It's not clear there is a reasonably easy safe play to minimize the damage by playing the second, third, fourth or fifth shot away from trouble and attempting a longer two putt. Am I wrong? Can you play way left back behind the middle pin and get it to stay for a 40-50 putt?
The overall score for a round should not be unduly measured by one's performance on a single hole. It makes that hole too important.
If you're playing a match, then it's OK, and in fact this hole will speed up play as one player will gain a decisive advantage quickly. Looking for good rebuttals here.
John,
Ironically, I asked the same question of my playing partners. I haven't been to Bandon but know the critical comments about BT 14 green. They all agreed in concept the two holes could be viewed as similar but there are backstops getting into the back portion of the green at Landmand to assist in stopping approach shots from the rough or challenging chip shot locations around the green.
My big takeaway from hole #4 and hole #7 is that the mainstream public player won't "get" either hole. I'd anticipate some head scratching about #4 especially with such a unique green and surround, but #7 will probably take some heat.
I'm upset with myself I didn't get to the very back of the green and that top plateau to inspect the green from that position. For those that have played, do you remember if there are pinable spots up there??
For the record, while #7 may have made me uncomfortable, it's a cool short hole I enjoyed. From the back tees it's only 325 yards. If you get greedy and don't pull off your shot, recovery is a challenge. I'd place #7 and #8 as one of the most unique back to back challenges I've faced that total less than 425 yards for both holes!!
Ken
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Ok... does anyone have thoughts on 7?
Should this green be blown up, or hung in the Louvre?
I'll take a stab at this having only seen pictures, but it looks awesome.
Almost like its conjuring a bit of Pasa 16 in the audacity of that green.
But...I really love quirk, and this hole seems to have plenty of it!
Kalen -
You are correct sir. Rob Collins said that the inspiration for this green is the 16th at Pasatiempo.
Rob talks about the inspirations for many of the holes and greens at Landmand in the Talking Golf History Podcast episode 91. It's a great listen. https://talkingolf.fireside.fm/hosts/connor-t-lewis (http://https://talkingolf.fireside.fm/hosts/connor-t-lewis)
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6 is a challenging hole because the green is not visible on the 2nd and 3rd shots. The fall-away slope and angle of the green relative to the fairway, plus the sidehill lie make for some challenging shots.
7 is a really cool hole as both the fairway and greenside bunkers are placed right where you want to hit.
Cal's picture taken above the green indicates that there's a fair amount of room on the back half of the green.
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I really like the flat shelf on the left side of the fairway, as long as it is about 170-200 yards from the tee. It looks small and asking for a good long (3-4-5) iron for a medium hitter, maybe only a 6 or 7 iron for a strong young player. If it's 200-230 out, then it looks too small to me.
When I say the back of the green for those "middle" or second tier hole locations, that looks like 10-15 yards left of the flag, viewing from the tee or middle of the fairway.
I could be wrong, but it does look like once or twice a year you could put the hole all the way back in the middle and it just might work for a novelty position.
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It's over 200 to that bit of fairway on the left. Is it worth trying? You bet. It looks like an unrealistic shot to even attempt, but even if you're in the sedge you are way above the hole with some type of wedge (in the sedge with a wedge).
I pulled my hybrid into the sedge on the left. What no one has really talked about is how easy that stuff is to hit out of. It's sparse enough to wear it really doesn't grab the club like you think it would. The soil is loess so there is a little give as your club makes contact. (It's not hard like bare clay.) I got up and down a number of times out of that stuff. If you can find your ball you can usually make a reasonable advance of your ball. In a lot of cases, you can hit a full shot like your hitting out of rough without much loss in distance.
From up on the left you can take a full shot from above the green (where you can see all the trouble). It is nowhere near as difficult as the delicate pitch shots from down below.
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The 7th is certainly a wild green. I think where it frustrates people is that on a short par 4, you don't want to play defensively. This green makes you do that. I would agree with Peter that maybe 1/3 of it is usable for hole locations, but at an average green size of 14k square feet, that's still plenty of places for cups. We had a back middle hole, so less chance to be coming up short and rolling back. Seems a little long or a little left miss wouldn't be that bad. Definitely a holes where wind and green speeds matter a lot.
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I pulled my hybrid into the sedge on the left. What no one has really talked about is how easy that stuff is to hit out of. It's sparse enough to wear it really doesn't grab the club like you think it would. The soil is loess so there is a little give as your club makes contact. (It's not hard like bare clay.) I got up and down a number of times out of that stuff. If you can find your ball you can usually make a reasonable advance of your ball. In a lot of cases, you can hit a full shot like your hitting out of rough without much loss in distance.
I also played my 2nd shot (the second time I played the course) from in the sedge in the same area. I hit the flagstick on a fly from 80 yds away, and it bounced into the bunker, so I do think that the hole is unfair. :-)
It looks like they have a lot of sedge (if that's what it is called) to mow in order to make it playable, and I'm grateful that they had done that when I played the course.
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On 7 I thought it was cool how the hill behind the green and big bump on the right of the green gave the illusion the green was sliding off the side of the hill. I hit it right up to the greenside bunkers both days so had a pretty simple pitch almost sideways into the green with the pin on the lower tier. It looked like there was a lot of room for pins on the upper tier.
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Dan,
Interesting observation as I thought similar. When I saw this pic I thought "where in the hell do you hit it" because the entire green appears unpinnable from this view! ;D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52392908527_f853bcc123_c.jpg)
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I saw several excellent shots played to the green from the right side of the hole corridor. My impression is that it's a more forgiving target than it appears, although not by much as it's certainly severe. Manageable, though.
I'm sure I saw a lower GIR percentage at 8. In Mashie-level competition, the hole reveals our wedge play deficiencies. It would be interesting to review scoring stats for this minihole from the state Mid Am a month or so ago to know what kind of teeth it shows to very strong players.
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The tiny par 3 8th by John Mayhugh
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52408527501_8d2c8622c2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nRapkK)
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Much scarier to play the second time after you see all of the trouble behind that green after you play it once!
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So understated, a surprise after the previous few holes. What direction does the hole face? I like it.
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I can't imagine this hole in a 15-20 mph wind. Less than a hundred yards and just waiting to blowup your card. Touchy little sand shots abound. I did hit a "full" putter off the back tee (on dry turf) and it just made it to the very front edge of the green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52409874845_ca26f21682_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nRhiRP)DSC00711 (https://flic.kr/p/2nRhiRP) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
From the Tee
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52409941108_01a507710b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nRhDyh)DSC00709 (https://flic.kr/p/2nRhDyh) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
The right side and back portion of the green (photo from 9 tee)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52408928917_1d9f5d886c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nRcsEH)DSC00707 (https://flic.kr/p/2nRcsEH) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
Continuation around back right to the back
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I can't imagine this hole in a 15-20 mph wind. Less than a hundred yards and just waiting to blowup your card. Touchy little sand shots abound.
I agree. We had virtually no wind and an easy pin placement on the right side and it was still intimidating. I played to the front right just in front of the green and I think I would do that every time.
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How many great 100yd par 3s are there? This one has to be near the top. Awesome golf hole. I can't imagine what this is like on a windy day. I will likely find out next year.
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8 is quite a contrast to the rest of the holes. There's not a lot of room for an off target shot here. Most players are making a 1/2 or 3/4 swing from the tee box, which is unusual. On top of that, the downhill slope of both the hole and green, and the wind speed have to be plugged into the equation.
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Two months post-play, I'm still trying to figure out how much I like the 8th. The contrast between its green (tiny, mostly subtly sloped) and every other green on the course (huge, extremely undulating) is obvious, and that alone makes it an interesting jolt. But the back two-thirds of the green is so narrow, falling away from the tee box, that I don't know whether there's any real sense in aiming anywhere but the front third of the green under practically any circumstances. The bang-a-putt option could be cool in the wind once the fairways mature.
It's not a bad hole by any stretch, it just is probably somewhere between 15th and 18th in my power ranking of the holes on the course if I were to sit down and rank them all.
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Having correctly guessed the inspiration for the 7th green...
I'm guessing #8 was an ode to Spyglass #4 or Riv #10? ;D
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How many great 100yd par 3s are there? This one has to be near the top. Awesome golf hole. I can't imagine what this is like on a windy day. I will likely find out next year.
I'm not sure that it is great, yet. Time will tell. But I'm not a huge fan of 2 or 20 holes to begin with. I've always thought that #15 at Los Angeles Country Club, for example, was too extreme and there you don't ever have to deal with significant wind.
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How many great 100yd par 3s are there? This one has to be near the top. Awesome golf hole. I can't imagine what this is like on a windy day. I will likely find out next year.
I'm not sure that it is great, yet. Time will tell. But I'm not a huge fan of 2 or 20 holes to begin with. I've always thought that #15 at Los Angeles Country Club, for example, was too extreme and there you don't ever have to deal with significant wind.
What made #15 at LACC too extreme? Is it the bunker-only punishment?
Last time I played all 4 people in our group hit the green... so I don't think the target is too small. I haven't played the short one at Barnbougle but to me that is the most terrifying of all the shorties.
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I guess what I like is that it looks flat and simple for a 100 yard hole, but by all accounts it is a scary shot.
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First time I played it I went for the pin and ended up in one of the back bunkers - when I got back there I was surprised that the bunkers were there. Had no idea - can't be seen except from the back.
Next day, with pin in same place, I used one club shorter and went for the front left of the green - ended up about 10 feet putting for birdie.
The front left bunkering really drew my attention away from any problems in the back. It's not a particularly difficult hole with the pin placement we had - back right.
A fun hole in the middle of a bunch of uphill difficult ones.
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First time I played it I went for the pin and ended up in one of the back bunkers - when I got back there I was surprised that the bunkers were there. Had no idea - can't be seen except from the back.
Next day, with pin in same place, I used one club shorter and went for the front left of the green - ended up about 10 feet putting for birdie.
The front left bunkering really drew my attention away from any problems in the back. It's not a particularly difficult hole with the pin placement we had - back right.
A fun hole in the middle of a bunch of uphill difficult ones.
That was a great shot. It helped you a little to be lefty in that case since you cut it a little so it came in a little softer and fit the shape of the hole. Only ball out of 8 I saw hit the green the 2 rounds I played.
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How many great 100yd par 3s are there? This one has to be near the top. Awesome golf hole. I can't imagine what this is like on a windy day. I will likely find out next year.
I'm not sure that it is great, yet. Time will tell. But I'm not a huge fan of 2 or 20 holes to begin with. I've always thought that #15 at Los Angeles Country Club, for example, was too extreme and there you don't ever have to deal with significant wind.
Last time I played all 4 people in our group hit the green... so I don't think the target is too small. I haven't played the short one at Barnbougle but to me that is the most terrifying of all the shorties.
The 7th at Barnbougle is pretty terrifying and pretty great. I think I've played it 5 or 6 times during the course of 2 trips and I'd be surprised if more than 2 or 3 balls stayed on the green out of the 20-24 attempts I either played or witnessed. However, the wind was blowing very strongly towards the sea every time we played it. As tough as it is though, on the Barnbougle hole you can chip or putt back onto the green from a lot of places. The only place where you really are in big trouble is if you miss left and the wind is blowing from left to right towards the Bass Strait.
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To provide a more complete perspective of the 8th hole, I found an aerial photo of the course on the Dakota County NE GIS website. I imported the aerial background of Hole #8 into CAD and scaled it to match dimensions measured off of the GIS website. Bunker and green outlines with some shading were added to contrast the features of the green complex.
The measured shaded green area is ~5,260 sq. ft. Small compared to the rest of the holes on the course but not small compared to golf holes on other courses. Prevailing wind is from the S-SW and the green slopes front to back.
The distances (in yards) from the back tee to the front, middle and back are shown along with the depth of the green (in feet) in line with each of the 3 flight paths. I hope the image attaches....if not, Ugh.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/196650661@N05/52413514439/in/dateposted-public/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/196650661@N05/52413514439/in/dateposted-public/)
Failed at attaching the image, added the hyperlink. If someone wants to post the image, that knows what their doing (I obviously don't) feel free, thanks.
(https://flic.kr/p/2nRzvWT)
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Gary, here you go!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52413514439_c8d21f0e99_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nRAXMr)
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Cool diagram!
I wonder if they could or would want to take the 2 little bunkers out on the back left and expand the green there to make a back pin more realistic to go at. 16 yards deep there in line with the tee seems awfully little, especially with wind and trouble surrounding it. It's tough to play away from the hole when it is only 111 yds to the flag.
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Even at 5260 Sq feet, its still bigger than every green at Pebble including 17, which is just over 5100 sq feet.
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Does 8 green slope front-to-back or does it just kind of feel like it does? I do think it's a green that plays effectively smaller than its already-small size.
We've reached the cornfield with another short green-to-tee walk... the first in a while that hasn't been a real hike! The more you hug the bunker off the tee at 9, the better your angle of approach will likely be. Get wild and go left of it if you really want to access a pin in the back right bowl. Miss your approach right, and you might not be able to hold the green with your pitch. Creative recovery shots and putts abound around another very challenging green. This one's a standout for me - a really attractive setting where the land calms down a bit, but anchored by a fundamentally excellent golf hole with plenty of audacity around the putting surface.
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One last comment about #8.
The hole plays a tad downhill to a green that has a slight pitch away from the tee. For middle of the road players like us, it exposes how inaccurate we can be with a high lofted wedge in hitting an exact yardage! On such an exposed piece of the property, significant wind will make this hole a knee knocker.
Hole #9. There's a football field out there to hit on your drive. What struck me was the vastness of the hole on what appears, compared to the rest of the course, a gentle part of the property. The view of the green definitely leads your eye toward the bunker complex and tempts you to go at that angle. The boomerang green can make for some interesting recovery shots if you get on the high right side off the green. It's a beautiful piece of the course that gives the player many options to try and approach different pin positions.
Ken
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Being a short hitter, I aimed my tee down the right side to stay away from the bunker. However, aiming down the left, and going in over the bunker may be a good option - especially with the pin in the back. I think going into the bunker is problematic in that your lie is very questionable - this is one of those bunkers built to keep you out.
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The 9th Hole by Doug Bolls
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52423600359_4e1f1755a7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nSuDYB)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52423830118_8679b07899_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nSvQgY)
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Thank You Morgan - I guess it's time for me to learn how to post photos.
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HOLE 8
I agree that targeting in the front seems like the sensible approach, there is a small bunker short and right to complicate even that. For a short hole, could definitely be a scorecard disaster. Another reason for match play - getting to be aggressive on this tee shot.
HOLE 9
Seemingly so much room off the tee, but a bit of a maddening tee shot once you're familiar with the hole. For holes located middle and back, the best approaches would seem to be from in line with the bunker or even from the next fairway. The knob that juts into the middle of the bunker makes the middle and back effectively much smaller targets.
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I mean, when you put it in photos like the above, the 9th is downright Mackenzian. The course has fabulous shaping, and an unbelievable amount of character jammed into each hole so far. The green at the 9th must be one of the most strategically interesting ones built in the last 10 years.
The 10th has as much character as any hole. It has stunning scale. Truly memorable, its two targets are a bit too undiscerning for my tastes. It falls a little flat for me, although I did enjoy hitting an approach 40 yards long on purpose in a skins game and ending up 20 feet away. I did not enjoy missing the putt.
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The next two holes show how multiple plays provides a huge advantage over the first time player.
On hole #10, it's easy to see the fairway to the left and the hilltop bunker on the right giving the perception of challenging the a player's aggressive driving line. There's much more room right for the preferred angle into the green than the tee view leads on. The drive reminds me of the challenge of the Road Hole.
The punchbowl green is HUGE! Rebound shots and putting challenge options abound!
A fun start to the great back nine!
Ken
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From 1,500 miles away, the 9th hole looks like the rare hole where you drive left to attack left-side hole locations and right for right-side hole locations. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe you try to drive to right side of the fairway for certain pin positions but not all.
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John,
I couldn't get a feel for 9 based on those two pics, so I cheated a bit and went to Bing Maps which shows the course mostly complete.
The one thing I hadn't realized is that 9/10 have a shared fairway, along with 1/18. 17 green thou looks ginormous, but I will wait!
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One interesting item in the Bing Maps aerial image is that it shows some of the ongoing sodding of the course.
I'm still a total failure at posting images. A fuzzy aerial form the Dakota Co. GIS site of holes 8-12 is at the following link. The Bing Maps aerial is incomplete for these holes. Maybe someone can post the image.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/196650661@N05/52427609547/in/dateposted-public/
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Everyone I played with went RIGHT over the mound off the tee - no question that is the preferred line of play if you can carry the mound. That gives you a fairly short (120? yds) into the green.
Being the short hitter, I went left of the mound and stayed in the fairway - 2nd shot short of the green - wedge into the pin.
Most players I saw went for the back of the green just to see the ball roll down the hill towards the pin. What fun!
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Hole 10
If someone has a good photo of the tee shot let me know, and I'll post it.
10 Green by Doug Bolls
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52434678827_5e85dc766c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nTtrdF)
Great pin position here on 10 green. Taken from behind green by John Mayhugh
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52435635840_a56ce9df13_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nTykGU)
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After the audacity of the 10th, I like the totally undefined tee shot at the 11th. Landmand is bold, but it has a lot of just classically excellent golf holes. This is one of them. Options abound with the second shot, there's a proper amount of risk and reward spread across them, and the hole sits wonderfully on the land. Excellent green site.
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Thanks for posting the pics Morgan. Clutch shit.
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The second shot on Hole #11 will likely frustrate the first time player if they are going to layup. The second shot is blind to the fairway landing area, moves left away from the direct line of play to the green (look at the link to the aerial image of the hole in my post above) and slopes considerably from left to right.
There were multiple second shots that ended up in the gunge off the right side of the fairway both days of play. You have to aim left, way left, of the fairway bunker on the layup and hope your ball doesn't cascade down off the right side of the fairway. It's difficult to aim that far away from the direct route to the green when you can't see the landing area.
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I'll echo Jason's comments about hole #11. There's a lot more space on the tee shot than it looks for the first time player.
I'll also echo Morgan's comments about the left side lay up. There's more room left than a player may think even after a few plays which leads to an aggressive lay up along side of the native area between the tee shot landing area and the green.
I love the movement of this hole and the challenge of the green complex that challenges both an aggressive shot to reach the green in two or from the left lay up area. The hole looks very natural.
Ken
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Can't say what it would be like for someone who plays the course a lot, but 11 might be my least favorite hole on the course. Blind tee shot, then if you aren't far enough on the tee shot, a blind second shot, with the landing area sloping into gunch on the right. I like the rest of the hole once the green complex comes into view.
Although I screwed up the hole on the first day, I did birdie it the second day (so it's not just sour grapes on my part), although I think the tees were a little forward from where they usually are.
Sorry to be negative here. I do really like the course quite a bit.
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The 10th was certainly a good tee shot to have a yardage guide for. Even the second time around and knowing the line of play, it's still uncomfortable aiming what seems too far right. While the punchbowl green gives you a chance to hit it on from most any angle, further right lets you mostly avoid the surrounding slopes - a good think IMO. The slopes seemed to be too steep to be able to use them to get closer to the hole unless the hole is in the front.
I think blind tee shots work much better than blind layup ones. From the tee, it's not that difficult to figure out where to go - especially with a hole map. After the tee shot, though, players can be trying to lay up from all sorts of angles and distances. A blind layup with lost ball potential on either side can take the fun out of what is otherwise a clever hole.
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The approach to 11 green by John Mayhugh
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52451609839_35f3b0ddee_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nUYddF)
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Just like Landmand, this thread begins with nice short transitions between holes, but eventually you get to really long and arduous ones.
Anyway, the transition from 11 green to 12 tee is actually one of the best on the course and includes a view that reveals much of the remaining holes sprawling over the hills ahead - it's a really elegant moment in the routing, I think. The 12th is a lovely looking short par 3 with a green surrounded by unpleasant situations. I saw some bizarre predicaments on this hole. Dan Moore and I both debated pitching from the left side of the green to the right in the first round I played. He two-putted as you'd imagine, but he had to make about an 8 footer to do so. A shot missed long gets seriously punished. Left is dead. Short and right you might find your ball and you might wish you hadn't. But if you hit the green, you have a fighting chance at a two-putt assuming your putter and/or wedge game is at least as good as Dan's.
If you like 2 and 9 at Kinsgley, meet their better-looking cousin.
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Hole 12
Par 3
By John Mayhugh
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52500534423_ce10491dda_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nZhXMZ)
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I'll make a quick comment in hopes that we can sustain this tour through to its completion. It's a very interesting project.
Thanks to Morgan Clawson for posting John Mayhugh's photo.
Jason, I've played Kingsley a bunch of times and I don't see the similarity between this hole and Kingsley #2 and #9 at all. Both #2 and #9 are highly convex. If you miss, you usually fall way below the green surface. This green seems to have little raised edges like a pie pan to hold the ball on the green. Maybe it's a bit like those holes in the sense that if you miss the green, it can be very difficult to get your next shot on the green. The 2nd at Kingsley is profoundly difficult in that regard.
Most importantly, assuming this photo is taken from the 12th tee, this hole requires an approach shot to a narrow green from an angle, which is completely different that both the 2nd and 9th holes at Kingsley. Both of those shots are straight on, with no bunker between you and the hole to carry. In both cases, it's a very narrow target with severe falloffs and trouble on each side.
To summarize, judging from the photo, this is a nice enough looking hole, but the comparison to the 2nd and 9th holes at Kingsley is off the mark. This hole looks easier than both of the Kingsley holes, which is not a bad thing. Kingsley's 2nd hole is prohibitively difficult for a player with a weak short game.
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I just want to say I'm really enjoying the photos posted of Landman and am leaning heavily towards planning a trip to Nebraska next summer to play this, Prairie Club, Wild Horse and either Dismal River or Sand Hills - whichever one will have me. LOL! I'll be treated to incredible golf at a price more affordable than Sand Valley or Bandon Dunes and can fly direct to Sioux City and be on Landman in no time. Driving from Homer to the Sand Hills area will be no worse than driving from PDX to Bandon.
I can see Nebraska becoming the hotbed of summer golf tourism in the near future. Good on it!
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We will get this tour completed. I'm committed to that. This course is very much worthy of discussion.
John, your points are fair and it's been a LONG time since I played Kingsley. My comparison here is more related to the "2 or 20" nature of the holes. And my thought just looking at the 12th at Landmand is that it looks quite a bit easier than 2 or 9 at Kingsley. The target appears bigger. It's a shorter target, at least from the tees I played.
I do think the photo shows some of the severity around the green - a miss short or right is clearly punished. But what you can't really see from the photo is the shallow effective playing surface of the green, or the serious punishment for a shot hit long. Miss long at 12, and it's virtually impossible to hold the green with a chip or pitch. And even when you're on the green, a pretty benign-looking pin placement might still leave you reaching for a wedge.
I'd be interested to hear what other players observed, but for me in the few rounds I played, I saw some REALLY bad scores on this hole. I also had a tap-in birdie of my own LOL. But I bookended it with a 3-putt bogey after being pretty happy to keep my birdie putt within 10 feet of the hole, and a great big Other after a miss long. My observation is just that there are a ton of ways to make a big number here - maybe not QUITE as severe as the holes noted at Kingsley, but similar in its ethos on some level.
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The quick walk from 11 to 12 provides a heck of a view!
I see where Jason was going with his parallel with Kingsley's incredible front nine par 3's. A miss here is costly and a big number is easy to find. The green has a massive ridge that bisects the left and right sections with wicked movement to the front of the green making for some really challenging putts if you're on the wrong side.
The back nine at Landmand really fit my eye and I felt very comfortable in each of our three rounds. I witnessed quite a few birdies on 12 and a handful of ball in pocket. The difficulty to score if missing the green is also made more challenging by the newness of the ground/turf. The front right is pretty spotty but missing in any condition is punished.
Again as Jason said, a shot long of the green will be severely punished!
As the snow falls here I find myself running through the holes and my shots at Landmand. I'm already planning ways to get back out there next season.
Ken
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Per the Society of Golf Historians podcast, Rob Collins' inspiration for this hole was #12 at Augusta National.
This hole does offer a shorter and safer route to the hole via the lay-up area to the left of the green. That's something that's not available at Augusta National #12 or Kingsley #2 and #9.
And perhaps this is a good example of Collins' effort to make the course more forgiving and playable that others.
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The teeing are for the 12th was quite wide, and the shorter tees can benefit as much from an easier angle as they do from reduced distance. If I had to protect a round on that hole, a layup short and left isn't the worst idea. But there are loads of hole locations where getting it up and down seem unlikely. The Kingsley 2/9 comparison probably was based on where you end up if you go long. Nowhere good!
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As the snow falls here I find myself running through the holes and my shots at Landmand. I'm already planning ways to get back out there next season.
Ken
Ken,
Certainly a vast departure from the nearly 90° day we spent hoofing 36, huh?
A power fade comes in handy on this hole. (I power fade which I do not possess.) As was the case with all of these pars threes I asked myself what the hell do you do when the wind is howling? The bunker in the back isn't actually the worst place to be on this hole, at least it saves you from the nether regions.
You can kind of see it in these photos, but the two ripples in the green make a 2-putt anything but certain if you choose to take the bailout on the left. We had dead calm conditions, and it was no walk in the park. Windy conditions would make this hole an adventure.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52500988303_654753ff06_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nZkhHv)LGC 12F (https://flic.kr/p/2nZkhHv) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52500988363_b18d9256fb_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nZkhJx)LGC 12B (https://flic.kr/p/2nZkhJx) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
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On to the 13th. Reminds me a bit of the short porch par 5 at Ballyhack from the tee. I gravitated toward a long iron off the tee to set up a short iron approach. Visually, this hole doesn't quite jive for me. Excellent green though.
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I disagree with Jason about the visuals from the tee. I love the way the hole is laid out with a full view of the fairway down to the right turn and up the hill all the way to the green.
I do agree with Jason the green is very nice. The uphill approach and fronting bunker complex made it difficult to dial in a good yardage. The multi tiered green created some adventurous putting. The back pin shelf was difficult to be courageous enough to take enough club to reach!
Ken
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#13 from the tee by John Mayhugh
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52514510871_b1a2826b0b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o1wAve)
#13 looking back at green and fairway by John Mayhugh
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52514042837_399bfd575a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o1ucnF)
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The 13th had one of the more difficult tee shots for me. It's hard to select a good line from the tee, and both times I went right into the bowl of rough. You can avoid a blind approach but have to be good at positioning your tee shot.
This pic from behind the green shows how downhill the tee shot is as well as how the distance you carry the drive affects the line you play. The first of the bunkers is about 280 from the green tee and plays quite a bit shorter.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52517064213_3c4c9651b5_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o1KFwn)Landmand 13 green rear (https://flic.kr/p/2o1KFwn) by john mayhugh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/94270950@N05/), on Flickr
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#13 from the tee by John Mayhugh
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52514510871_b1a2826b0b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o1wAve)
This is a good look at the part of the hole that doesn't jive visually, for me. There's something about those two corner bunkers being stacked so close to each other, and their small footprints. The course feels so big an expansive - they just feel a little out of scale to me. You can see how they're dwarfed a bit by the bunker closer to the green.
But they do a job on this hole. Mayhugh's experience isn't unusual from what I saw - I watched a LOT of balls off the tee wind up in the rough on the right. I think the two corner bunkers almost help define a bad line - there's really a LOT of room out left, but the pin in the distance and all the features on the hole sort of draw the eye toward the right side. In that sense, they may work very well architecturally. But something about the visual felt a little jarring to me.
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I like #13 because it offers plenty of tee options. Thurman mentioned hitting an iron off the tee.
A player's first inclination is likely to choose the shortest route to the green, which is to get as close to that corner as possible. But, looking at the photo, it appears that driving to the end of the tee landing area offers an easier 2nd shot. It looks like you can play behind the bunkers rather than short of them or over them.
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Great photo of the 13th and 14th holes by Doug Bolls(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52519811683_847086cf61_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o1ZLfx)
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It's a little hard to tell, but it looks as if an approach shot from the right side of the fairway (or rough) plays into the green's slope. If you drive it long and left, the approach angle is a bit less attractive. The best angle requires a longer approach. Still, I'd guess the most effective strategy is a long drive and a shorter approach, despite the slightly inferior angle.
It's less dramatic than most of the previous holes. The native bowl short and right is compelling. They should work hard to keep that area playable. I don't know how long this hole is, but I'll guess 375-400. I think a long hitter (like say, Jim Colton) might just blast it at the green and take their chances.
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It's a little hard to tell, but it looks as if an approach shot from the right side of the fairway (or rough) plays into the green's slope. If you drive it long and left, the approach angle is a bit less attractive. The best angle requires a longer approach. Still, I'd guess the most effective strategy is a long drive and a shorter approach, despite the slightly inferior angle.
It's less dramatic than most of the previous holes. The native bowl short and right is compelling. They should work hard to keep that area playable. I don't know how long this hole is, but I'll guess 375-400. I think a long hitter (like say, Jim Colton) might just blast it at the green and take their chances.
That's about right. Card says the middle tees are 380 and 2nd longest 415.
However, wouldn't you agree that little bowl area to the right is begging for a pond! 8)
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It's a little hard to tell, but it looks as if an approach shot from the right side of the fairway (or rough) plays into the green's slope. If you drive it long and left, the approach angle is a bit less attractive. The best angle requires a longer approach. Still, I'd guess the most effective strategy is a long drive and a shorter approach, despite the slightly inferior angle.
It's less dramatic than most of the previous holes. The native bowl short and right is compelling. They should work hard to keep that area playable. I don't know how long this hole is, but I'll guess 375-400. I think a long hitter (like say, Jim Colton) might just blast it at the green and take their chances.
John,
435 from back tees, 415 one set up.
The hole is much more dramatic on site. More downhill on the tee shot than photos can capture.
The right bowl certainly got a lot of action in our groups. If my memory is correct, the first bunker edge was 285 from the 415 tee.
I’m not sure if the angle of approach into the green favored right or left side of the fairway but there was definitely a yardage difference. The right side shortened the approach.
Ken
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13's tee shot is the most intimidating on the course to me because of the sense that a) it's significantly narrower than the fairways so far, and b) both the near and far edges of the fairway are rapidly disappearing as you look right to left. It feels like you have to really calibrate your line, whereas on most holes you are swinging for the fences.
Also, the farther and farther forward and left you hit it, the more subtly awkward the approach becomes because you're going to be coming less and less directly up the fall line of the green and you're gradually trading a downhill approach for a level or slightly uphill one. It's a nice way to narrow the advantage a longer tee shot typically enjoys over a shorter one.
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14 is one of the holes you travel to Landmand for. It's a deeply audacious rendition of the Redan. I saw a lot of different progressions and outcomes unfold here - splendid shots and some really funky predicaments for marginal ones. I think it works. Believe the hype that builds on the horizon as you work your way to this tee.
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It's a little hard to tell, but it looks as if an approach shot from the right side of the fairway (or rough) plays into the green's slope. If you drive it long and left, the approach angle is a bit less attractive. The best angle requires a longer approach. Still, I'd guess the most effective strategy is a long drive and a shorter approach, despite the slightly inferior angle.
It's less dramatic than most of the previous holes. The native bowl short and right is compelling. They should work hard to keep that area playable. I don't know how long this hole is, but I'll guess 375-400. I think a long hitter (like say, Jim Colton) might just blast it at the green and take their chances.
I've bitched a bit aesthetically, but I do think the hole plays very well. And I liked my tactic of shoving a 4iron down the right half of the fairway to set up short irons into the slope of the green. I sorta like hitting off a gentle downslope at Landmand anyways. I never felt jealous of the guys who hit driver... at least not until Jake started talking about flying bunkers during a final skins game.
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#15 (to be discussed after #14) tee shot is the epitome of "grip it and rip it." There's a football field wide fairway to hit. I found the lay-up very interesting and thought provoking to pick a good line and distance to position for the best approach to the green. There's a shelf on the left side of the fairway providing about as flat a lie as you can find at Landmand.
Now for the green. Surprising. Audacious. Massive. It's certainly not what I expected during the first play and made me chuckle each subsequent play. The crevasse in the middle front of the green has to be seen to be believed. Like so many greens at Landmand, the green is HUGE.
As a total side bar, Landmand is the first course I've ever experienced with turf covered sprinkler heads in the greens. The greens are so massive in many cases, there would be no way to get irrigation on the green pad without internal heads.
Ken
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Ken, is the Redan THAT forgettable?
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Ken, is the Redan THAT forgettable?
Ok. I got a bit ahead of myself and that certainly doesn’t mean I want to bypass 14.
Redan hole tee shots have never felt natural to me. I always struggle with the on demand controlled draw!
This green provides for a challenging tee shot but also loads of options for putting. Once again, a HUGE green. We used the right edge on more than one occasion to cuddle shots up close to the hole. Creative putting wins out here.
Ken
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I don't rememember when it was, but within the last year or so someone talked about the "thrill of anticipation". The idea that there is a thrill in either anticipating a good shot that isn't quite aparrent from the vantage point from where the ball was struck or a shot slowly making its way to the intended finishing point. This is one of those holes.
I saw a number of shots that slowly (and I mean slowly) make their way down to the pin. It was a lot of fun guessing where these tee shots would ultimately end up. Was it good? Was it bad? No one really knew.
I can't imagine the greens ever having a lower height of cut than they currently have. Lots of three putts to be had on this one.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52527601815_ae4de1b9fa_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o2FFZa)DSC00679-2 (https://flic.kr/p/2o2FFZa) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52526659517_647128ac85_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o2ARSD)DSC00678-2 (https://flic.kr/p/2o2ARSD) by Calvin Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154861469@N04/), on Flickr
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I commented on both days that #14 was a PERFECT example of a Redan - you approach it from the correct angle, the tilt is just right, bunkers placed optimally, and it's BIG.
With the pin down where it was (left, back) no doubt the perfect shot is right front and let it roll with the slope. Jay Mickle was the only one of our group that I saw execute it exactly right - and he got rewarded with a 6 foot birdie try.
Once in a while I see a very well executed "template" hole - a Short with the perfect thumbprint/horseshoe or a Biarritz with a swale that takes your breath away - I think #14 at Landmand is right up there with the best.
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We always talk about the tee shot when we talk Redans. Cal and Doug illustrate well - the tee shot on 14 works beautifully. Hitting the right shot here is a blast.
The part that most impressed me, though, was the amount of interest on hand around the green. If you missed the target with your tee shot, things start to get really interesting. I don't remember ever getting this same feeling of interest on other Redan holes. The seriousness of the slopes on this one really open up some crazy recovery options if you miss on the "inside left" of the green. And if you fire for the kickslope and push your tee shot... yikes. Recoveries from right/long are nightmares.
I also thought the left/back portion of the green yielded a few different, and large, pin placement areas. It's a green that's 2/3rds unpinnable and yet still has 3 greens within the green that ARE pinnable... I don't know if I've ever seen anything like that before.
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I was going to argue that a Redan shouldn't have a sand hazard for shots that are hit long. I was basing that comment on playing the North Berwick Redan and a couple of other prominent examples where my ball rolled over the green and I was left with a steeply uphill chip shot, which gives a reasonably good chance at par.
So I looked up a couple of other examples (Yale and Shoreacres) which have bunkers behind the green, so I guess there's no requirement that behind the green is grass, not sand.
I like the picture. One of the better looking holes on the course, and the hole fits the land well. It looks fun to play. Is it really a Redan if there's sand back there, ruling out the chip and run save for par?
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The gravity of that first front-left bunker is incredible. Over the course of my two rounds in August, I must have hit 7 or 8 tee shots and at least 5 of them ended up in/around that first front-left bunker.
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John, for what it's worth on this hole, I think you have to really misplay your tee shot to find that bunker long. It's hard for me really to envision many balls ending up there unless a player gets too overzealous with too direct of a line toward the pin. The kickslope just isn't going to feed a player past the end of the green I don't think... your ball will have been rolling for 50+ yards by the time it funnels into that bunker and I just have to think a ball with that much zip on it will run through the green long instead (staying right of the pin)... which means attempting to recover from straight above the hole.
I think it's definitely a Redan. It might be the most Redan Redan that I've ever played, really. I think I get the context of your question, and the thought that on a lot of Redan holes a miss long and left might not be so bad since you're theoretically chipping into the slope of the green. I just think the only guy who's going to miss there on this hole, given its length and the amount of right-to-left feed from the kickslope, is a bomber who fires at the flag instead of using the contours. And I think it's perfectly fine to complicate his position with a bunker, in this case. Going back to the short game interest on hand here, it actually sounds kind of fun to try and hit wild left-to-right spinning bunker shots from that spot and try to take advantage of the green contours... although the sand at the 'mand isn't especially "spinny" really.
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We're hitting the home stretch. While I would continue to encourage discussion of any and all holes up to this point, we should all try to catch up to Ken and get to 15.
I just honestly don't know about this hole. I really don't know. I mean, it's a big sprawling fairway off the tee. Then the target gets a little smaller and a lot more awkward on the second shot. It felt like a very difficult layup... and you want to hit the layup well, because I'm not sure I've ever seen a green in my life where hitting the right portion matters so much.
This is truly one of the most one-of-a-kind disorienting holes I've ever played. Things are free and easy on the tee shot (although even that proved complicated when Jake hit a near-perfect ball down the right side that we never found). The rest of the hole is seriously toothy and really unlike anything else I've ever played.
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I said my peace for this hole prematurely but I will agree with Jason. After the tee shot this hole will jar you in a few ways!
Ken
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#14 is certainly the king of the par 3s at Landmand.
#14 grabs your attention a full 2 holes in advance. You can see it in the distance waving at you.
The tee shot is exhilarating. A properly struck ball takes a long time to roll-out and reach its conclusion.
When you get to the 15th tee you can watch the next group hit their shots and hoot and holler.
It is the most entertaining spot on the golf course.
14 is one of the most fun Redans that I have played.
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The 2nd shot at #15 will be blind or partially blind for many. By John Mayhugh
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52532162924_93cc735398_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o364QY)
The dynamic 15th green by Morgan Clawson
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52531842886_99ab641b08_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o34qH5)
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This looks very difficult to me. Are there reports of big numbers on this hole? Even if each of the lobes of this green are larger than regular greens, they still fall off dramatically on most sides.
This hole has a bit of that Tamalpais thing, which maybe only San Francisco Bay Area natives understand. The largest mountain in Marin County north of San Francisco is Mt. Tamalpais, which has been described as looking like a maiden sleeping or reclining. This last picture here by Morgan Clawson looks a bit like a sleeping woman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountains_named_The_Sleeping_Lady (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountains_named_The_Sleeping_Lady)
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As a total side bar, Landmand is the first course I've ever experienced with turf covered sprinkler heads in the greens. The greens are so massive in many cases, there would be no way to get irrigation on the green pad without internal heads.
Are you sure that is true? We have had to use them occasionally when building a big green, and I've certainly seen them on some other "big" modern courses. But if you aren't looking for them, you might well not notice.
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The 15th, for me, was the problematic hole at Landmand and led to a lengthy, respectful and constructive conversation with Rob Collins. It's 640 from the tips, but we played it from 580 and 555 respectively.
The tee shot, a short forced carry to a seriously wide landing zone, split by a narrow parallel bunker 20yds long slicing through its middle at or about 265yds out. To the hazard's left side is a narrower and lower fairway that, by virtue of its depressed terrain blinds out any view of 2/3 the green. The right, elevated, side offers a better look, but both areas remind the average length hitter they have 280-330yds (all uphill) to a very big two-tier green, with a perpendicular spine dissecting the middle.
The second shot is where the disappointment begins. The average, or short hitter, is asked to hit an absolutely precise shot of 180-210yds into a narrow, severely-canted gully sandwiched between several yawning bunkers that fall 60-100yds short of the green. Even with any success of staying on the grass, the majority of the green is obscured. The only option to this shot is try to hit and carry the ball 230yds ...OVER a huge field of native grasses and bushes...only to land 20yds short of the green in greenside depression....all of which is 100% blind to the golfer in the nearly all areas of the landing zone, or lay -up short of the bunkered neck with a 175-185yd blind shot. The first time player can hit two reasonably good shots and end up totally pooched. Only the bomber has any good chance of even successfully navigating these features.
In our group we had two West Point Golf Team Captains who should've considered joining the Air Force (where they'd easily be nicknamed, B-1 and B-52). They, like Rob himself, bombed their tee balls 290-340 on each rip. On 15, we had only one par, and 3-4 double-bogeys or higher. The first go-round was no better. The group had eagled, birdied or parred the other 3-shotters.
My biggest criticism of this hole was the blindness-to and proximity-of the native areas along the right. I have no issues with blind shots for the most part, but this was an automatic lost ball hazard with no visual warning whatsoever. Conveying that to Rob was easy. He was open and amenable to criticism (didn't hurt that our appreciation for the other seventeen holes was considerable). He walked me through the hole's desired strategy and ultimately realized that while it was certainly strong and representative of he and Tad's design principles, the criticism was eminently fair and its flaws evident.
The easy fix would be to grass and maintain some larger part of it. The other might be to soften the cant in the neck of the pinching approach bunkers. Both would make more economic sense than raising the LZ portions of the fairway. Even the placement of red lateral hazard stakes along the left edge of the native would help. All-in-all, and despite it being misidentified by a fellow panelist, it was a hole that simply didn't work as well as the other 17.
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Steve's post really summarizes thoughts for me on 15. It's a big hole, chock-full of character. Each shot is memorable. The green is one of the wildest I've ever seen. I'm just not sure it comes together in a way that makes those elements work in harmony.
Let's bump along to 16! I'll have to post my thoughts later - gotta go get ready for the wife's birthday dinner so that I can make sure I bank enough brownie points to return to the Mashie again next year...
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As a total side bar, Landmand is the first course I've ever experienced with turf covered sprinkler heads in the greens. The greens are so massive in many cases, there would be no way to get irrigation on the green pad without internal heads.
Are you sure that is true? We have had to use them occasionally when building a big green, and I've certainly seen them on some other "big" modern courses. But if you aren't looking for them, you might well not notice.
Sorry for the late response Tom.
I distinctly remember finding one on hole #4. The green is one of many very large putting surfaces. I was looking around at different pin positions and came across one of the heads. I thought maybe it was just an old cup and discolored turf. I found myself looking for others around the course. There are enough massive greens to warrant their use!
Ken
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The par 4 16th by Morgan Clawson
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52553004799_e89ac4ec33_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o4VTpD)
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Great photo Morgan!
Interesting to me is how many good players struggled on this tee shot with the predominant miss right. It's a difficult recovery from down there.
The fairway bunker placement works really well forcing the aggressive play right or the direct safe play left. The right side of the fairway will reward a flat lie where the left side tended more to a ball below your feet lie. Slight uphill and partially blind approach creates more interest on a narrow but long green.
A very cool cliff edge hole through the green.
Ken
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That's a lovely picture. It's an attractive golf hole that looks like it belongs there.
My unsolicited and unexperienced opinion is the following. If that bunker is 225-235 yards from the tee I'm playing, then the bunker is a little too big.
For comparison, let me compare this center bunker to a similar hazard at the 13th hole at Friar's Head. Friar's Head is sort of a master class in good golf course design. The 13th hole there is quite long, maybe 450-475 yards, so for me it would be two long shots. It has a center hazard, two little bunkers that are exactly where you want to hit your tee shot, right down the middle of a hole that bends just a smidge left to right. Those two bunkers are tiny, each about 10-15 feet in diameter, so that hitting into them is a rare play event.
Back to Landmand #16, missing right down the hill looks like a double bogey to me. Given my game as I remember it, I would aim a few yards right of that bunker and hit driver, and hope for the best. Usually my miss is a pull. So I predict that quite a few people will be spooked by the hillside, hit a low pull and end up in that bunker, which looks like it may be difficult to advance the ball far enough to reach the green.
If I was playing OK, I could probably fade it off the center bunker to the fairway somewhat reliably.
Anyway, quite a provocative hole and it really looks nice on that hillside. And please, accept that my commentary is meant to discuss the architecture and not to be critical of the course. I like to promote conversation and analysis. This is an interesting course worth talking about.
Thanks for the photo, Morgan!
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At least this time, unlike the 2019 Prairie Dunes thread, I’ve inserted myself into the conversation before the 18th hole.
Landmand was very polarizing for me. There is a lot of good stuff out there, and holes like #16 are a good example. That tee shot was one of my favorites on the course, even if I bailed hard left both rounds. However, the walk up to 17 tee, which I think was akin to climbing a three story building, was just brutal. There were other examples of juxtaposition, and I hope to get more of my thoughts on this thread another time.
I have to consider the lens I viewed my Landmand rounds from. My Sunday experience was not the best, as my out-of-shape booty self decided to hoof it. I’ve walked some pretty hilly courses in my life, but I think the sheer scale of this place, with its copious elevation changes, may put this one over the top. I forget what time my ultimately clocked in at, but it was at least 5h 45m, and that put a bad taste in my mouth. I made a joke about wanting to cry on the 14th tee. We were already four hours plus into our round and waiting on the tee. I could see the clubhouse on the horizon. And I thought to myself, “Do I really have to walk back to that tonight?! Can we just pitch a tent here and finish in the morning?”
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FYI - Google Earth has an updated aerial image of the course layout.
I can't stop staring at Hole #4, that green...
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Criss makes a point I've sorta brushed against throughout this thread. I read some early reviews of Landmand that talked about the short green-to-tee transitions. And in many places, you can see the fruits of a valiant attempt to design a walkable course on this property. But this is one of the most severe pieces of land I've seen a golf course built on, and in many places it just mandates a VERY difficult walk. I find some of those early reviews disingenuous. I walked 2 out of 3 rounds, but it's a HARD walk. And the climb from 16 green to 17 tee is probably the single toughest moment. I just don't think this is a place that we should advertise as a very walkable course.
The thing that I do very much appreciate about the course, though, is the golf itself. The course takes some serious chances and puts some wild stuff on offer, but I really think it sings in its lower-key moments. Holes like 5, 9, 11, and now 16 demonstrate restraint and gracefulness that stands out in comparison to some of the wilder stuff on the course. 16 is just a very fine golf hole. With a ton of fairway width, the single bunker really forces a player to make a decision and execute. The hole clings beautifully to the ridge on the left. It clearly required some earth movement, but the shaping ties in beautifully with the contours in the distance. The skyline approach is very attractive. The green has cool movement. It's just a classically solid hole to me, even if I dread the walk up the hill after playing it.
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I think I asked this question when we were there, but how does Landmand's topography compare to places like Ballyhack and Dismal River? I haven't played either, but I'm also wondering if there are precedents out there for courses like Landmand that do promote walking despite a severe topography. Having played Greywalls in 2021, I thought there was no way I would ever walk that course. However, it doesn't seem so bad after walking 18 at Landmand.
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I think I asked this question when we were there, but how does Landmand's topography compare to places like Ballyhack and Dismal River? I haven't played either, but I'm also wondering if there are precedents out there for courses like Landmand that do promote walking despite a severe topography. Having played Greywalls in 2021, I thought there was no way I would ever walk that course. However, it doesn't seem so bad after walking 18 at Landmand.
Criss,
I can only speak about your comparison of Ballyhack.
I walked a lot of our golf at Landmand and while the overall elevation drops and climbs were dramatic, I thought the walk wasn't that bad.
The elevation at both Landmand and Ballyhack is dramatic but also very different. Ballyhack has streams and ravines scattered across the property dictating longer routes to get between holes or tees to fairways. Ballyhack would be a very difficult walk. There are a few transitions between holes that are a bit lengthy and steep.
I also have a number of walks at Greywalls and despite some rigorous segments (1 tee to fairway, 5 tee to fairway, 6 up to tee then down/up to the green, the lengthy transition from 8 green to 9 tee then the final walk up from 18 green) Greywalls is a very enjoyable walk! I'd certainly recommend walking at Greywalls. It keeps you moving down the hole corridors where you can enjoy the view instead of being push off into the trees on the cart paths.
Ken
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As a total side bar, Landmand is the first course I've ever experienced with turf covered sprinkler heads in the greens. The greens are so massive in many cases, there would be no way to get irrigation on the green pad without internal heads.
Are you sure that is true? We have had to use them occasionally when building a big green, and I've certainly seen them on some other "big" modern courses. But if you aren't looking for them, you might well not notice.
Sorry for the late response Tom.
I distinctly remember finding one on hole #4. The green is one of many very large putting surfaces. I was looking around at different pin positions and came across one of the heads. I thought maybe it was just an old cup and discolored turf. I found myself looking for others around the course. There are enough massive greens to warrant their use!
Ken:
My question was the other way around -- are you sure you haven't played other courses that had them, but you just didn't notice?
It's unusual, but not unique to Landmand. I've seen them quite a few times, and had to do it a couple of times in my own work.
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Let's climb the hill to 17.
Disclaimer: I love every hole that I drove the green of on my most recent play. But I also hate every hole where damn Freeman cancels a skin on me, especially when I have to pay him after the round is over. So, I'm a little torn on this one. But I'm inclined to think it's the coolest short 4 I've seen in a long time.
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Ken:
My question was the other way around -- are you sure you haven't played other courses that had them, but you just didn't notice?
It's unusual, but not unique to Landmand. I've seen them quite a few times, and had to do it a couple of times in my own work.
Sorry Tom. I did misunderstand your question.
Unfortunate for me I haven't played many courses with greens as large as Landmand. I'd suspect there were greens at Sand Valley's courses that probably needed internal irrigation but nothing I noticed. I'd suspect Bandon would be another opportunity but I've yet to make it there.
By chance did you use them at Lost Dunes and after all these years I never knew???
Ken
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Ostentatious is the only word I can use to describe hole 17. I love this hole but after four plays I never found the "best" play for myself.
Pin location will dictate so much off the tee. The hole provides plenty of width to try and reach better angles on a lay up or take a rip at the green without concern of going out of play.
We found places on the green it was impossible to reach other sections with one putt and very difficult with two putts.
It would be easy to spend an afternoon playing this hole over and over again trying new strategies.
What a fantastic hole for match play. There's so many ways to make good or bad numbers.
Ken
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Thanks for the kind words regarding the photos.
The par 4 17th by Morgan Clawson.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52565118326_32a9f50fbe_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o5ZYky)
MacKenzie's lost 12th green at Sitwell Park in England...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52565669118_e45c07cc1b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o63N4Y)
...was the inspiration for the 17th green at Landmand. Photo by Doug Bolls.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52563373161_4e7d29a7e4_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o5R2yv)
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Very nice. Not much to add here. The concept reminds me a bit of the 13th hole at the Kingsley Club, which is about 265 yards uphill. Both are wide driveable par 4s with huge undulating greens. The scorecard I saw says this hole is about 310 yards long, so probably only 280-290 a bit downhill to that hole location. From the picture, it looks like laying up to wedge distance is a sensible strategy at all times. Maybe favor the left side for left pins, right side for right pins. The depicted front left hole location looks like one of the easier spots. Front locations on the center and right side of the green look diabolical.
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John,
In my four tee shots here I tried:
1. driver at the pin, hit the top lip of the bunker and rolled back in (not really a bad spot)
2. lay up short of the front left bunker making a pretty tricky half shot
3. lay up to the right of the pot bunker on the right side leaving a fuller wedge which was comfortable
4. for variety I was curious about reaching the back right bowl over the pot bunker opening up more of the back of the green. This provided a very good angle to that back left pin location but certainly not the front left where the pin was!
Pin location will dictate so much off the tee but getting aggressive at the green can expose someone's comfort with a nervy, blind half wedge shot to a green 15 feet above you! Similar to Kingsley there's some backstops and slopes to move the ball around to reach positions but putts outside 15-20 feet will cover some heavy undulation.
Ken
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This is a great hole with tee options galore. Pick your line and distance and have at it. Be aggressive or conservative.
If I was the hole cutter I would be tempted to pick some challenging pin locations given the relatively short yardage. And upper tier hole locations will yield some approach shot oohs and ahhs.
John Kirk - A big difference between this and Kingsley 13 is that the green is fully visible from the tee. Thanks for following the thread.
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A couple thoughts on 17:
- I might be wrong about this, but I have had the thought that I can't recall a short 4 where I was regularly so far away from my playing partners off the tee. Not because we were hitting wild errant drives (although my cold top in the first round of the Mashie certainly put me well behind the rest of my group... ), but because there are so many legitimate lines of play to take on this hole.
- John Kirk isn't wrong - a layup to wedge distance will always work here, and you have oodles of short grass as a target. But the severity of the green really works to challenge the logic of that play. You'll face a significantly uphill wedge shot where misjudgment or poor execution can leave you working hard to 3-putt.
- Why challenge all the hazards and other trouble that comes into play as you get closer to the green? Well, as we saw in multiple rounds... there are some really juicy positions available if you can access them. On my first play, with the same pin in Morgan's photo, someone (Cal maybe?) found the little leftmost strip of fairway. That was a really sweet-looking spot to come at that flag from. With a later pin cut toward the right-center of the green, George made the up-and-down from the little gully near the pot bunker (online with the clubhouse flagpole in the distance) look easy. The best way to mitigate the potentially disastrous putting positions you can find on this hole, I believe, is to get close to the green where you can hit a simple pitch shot and maybe even turn some of that contour into a tool that helps funnel a ball a little closer.
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I do think it's time to head home. It's another climb to the tee at 18, and a pretty bizarre tee shot if you ask me. You don't want to miss right - that's a hot disaster with the falloff lurking. You'll be hitting one of those provisionals that you know in your heart isn't provisional at all. So you hedge a little left, but the fairway runs away from you in that direction and it's really easy to end up running down into a valley where you'll have a nice clean lie on short-grass and find yourself staring at a green 30 feet of elevation above you with a chance to try to carry the milk carton bunker to reach in two. That's a fool's errand. You shouldn't take the bait... unless it's a skins game. Even the layup is tricky as, again, the fallaway edge right really challenges the line you'd probably like to try and take.
The blind bunker in the landing zone is a little too blind and a little too punishing, I think. I realize I think this because I found it on each of my first two plays, and I realize that makes me a bitch. But so is that bunker.
Then again, it's a very "gettable" short par 5. The very formidable hazards that lurk - the fallaway right side edge and the milk carton bunker - really give it some balance. Even the blind fairway bunker permits some sort of chance to hit a long iron to the green assuming you play a decent escape. Chance to end with a birdie, chance to end with an X after taking 10 swings from the Carton. I'm talking myself into this one being a pretty good finisher, I think.
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Haven't seen it posted yet but NLU released a video on Landmand with Rob that I think should be included in this discussion:
NLU Film Room: Landmand Golf Club (https://youtu.be/moVw6tfCG_o)
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Ben,
Thanks for posting that, a terrific watch with a lot more context on what one will encounter. A few thoughts:
1) I can understand the comments on 15 now. Wide open tee shot for sure, but looks to be pretty brutal all the way in there from there especially for the average double digit capper.
2) Those greens like 7, 10, 15, 17, etc. look beyond wild, all the more reason I really need to get out there. It looks like some like 9 or 17 would embolden a player to chip it off the green given how woefully out of position you can end up.
3) How do those small targets at 8 and 12 hold up in the generally windy conditions? Interesting hearing the one guy say he would never try that line again on 8 if he knew what was waiting for a slightly errant shot.
P.S. Still can't get over how much that land reminds me of the dozens of hours I've spent exploring the Palouse Hills in Eastern WA
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3) How do those small targets at 8 and 12 hold up in the generally windy conditions? Interesting hearing the one guy say he would never try that line again on 8 if he knew what was waiting for a slightly errant shot.
Believe it or not. The 8th green is 5,315 sqft and the 12th is 8,348 sqft. So neither would generally be considered small, but with an average green size of 14,492 sqft the 8th and 12th are tiny by comparison.
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It seems we're limping home on discussion of a fantastic course but tis the season.
I agree with Jason the tee shot on 18 is a bit uncomfortable. There could be issues having a blind tee shot on a closing par 5 where some may wait for the green to clear.
The right hillside and long grass is not too offline from the tee. A left side drive brings the small and deep bunker in play. I love the temptation to go after the green but also the challenge of a layed up approach or recovery shots from around the green.
My highest praise for Landmand is to draw a parallel with one of my favorite courses, Kingsley Club. Once you finish out on 18 green, you look back to the modest and comfortable clubhouse where the food truck, beverages and a heck of a seat waits for you. Or you look left at the first tee and feel the pull to head back out for another go!!
Thanks to Jason for keeping this thread alive and to Vaughn, George, Jason and everyone at Landmand that welcomed us into their home.
Ken
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I've been waiting for a photo to offer my remote comments. I looked at a few photos and the scorecard onoine, so I have a decent idea of how it plays.
I have a question. From the second (510) and third (490) tees, how confident was everyone that a solid pull would clear the junk and end up in the 1st fairway? That would be an important consideration for me. I've hardly played in the past few years, but if that's the case, then my strategy is to aim at the left edge of the big right bunker and swing hard, assuming the drive usually misses the little center bunker and a hard pull clears the junk and ends up in the 1st fairway. I'd go for it in two if I was in the 18th fairway and could use a "what the hell, why not" 7-wood.
Do we have any anecdotes of reaching the green in two? Does it hold the long approach shots pretty well? Being way uphill like that, the ball will be landing at a flat angle. Otherwise, get the second back into position and a wedge shot should yield an easy 5.
I'll probably make one more brief comment before we're done. Thanks for letting me participate. I like picking a project every year or two to practice analyzing prominent new projects. It's really fun for me.
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John,
From the two tees you mentioned, a pull will typically end up in the first fairway. Where as there's a lot more forgiveness right off the 10th tee than the view shows, there's more forgiveness left off 18.
The closest 2nd shot I had into 18 was 190 yards to a front hole location. It's an intimidating approach that in hindsight, for me, the only time to go for the green is for extreme back hole locations. The uphill nature, wind and firmness of the greens make holding an approach from 200-240 pretty difficult. I don't have that shot! Plus, like most of the course, there's not many flat lies!
I will say the cardinal sin on 18 is to leave your approach short and left. That bunker complex is pretty wild.
Ken
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The approach to the 18th green. The huge intimidating bunker in front of the green dwarfs the clubhouse. The pin is just above the right edge of the bunker here. By Morgan Clawson.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52581951669_ec65770ac4_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o7ufiB)
The 18th green by John Mayhugh. Here the pin is on the far left edge of the green which requires a long carry over the fronting bunker.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52581696366_8f4d2d4e50_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o7sWpQ)
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I've been waiting for a photo to offer my remote comments. I looked at a few photos and the scorecard onoine, so I have a decent idea of how it plays.
I have a question. From the second (510) and third (490) tees, how confident was everyone that a solid pull would clear the junk and end up in the 1st fairway? That would be an important consideration for me. I've hardly played in the past few years, but if that's the case, then my strategy is to aim at the left edge of the big right bunker and swing hard, assuming the drive usually misses the little center bunker and a hard pull clears the junk and ends up in the 1st fairway. I'd go for it in two if I was in the 18th fairway and could use a "what the hell, why not" 7-wood.
Do we have any anecdotes of reaching the green in two? Does it hold the long approach shots pretty well? Being way uphill like that, the ball will be landing at a flat angle. Otherwise, get the second back into position and a wedge shot should yield an easy 5.
I'll probably make one more brief comment before we're done. Thanks for letting me participate. I like picking a project every year or two to practice analyzing prominent new projects. It's really fun for me.
John,
In our five-some, Scott & Pete, two former West Point golfers and Rob Collins all hit the green in two....from the back tees. Scott brought his in from the first fairway. I believe Rob and Pete both made birdies, and Scott a par. Their shots ran out a little from impact, but nothing extreme. I had a blind 85yds in for my third shot and actually spun back. The green was eminently fair.
All of us remarked how much fun it was to have a gettable closing three hole stretch. Favorable memories of most golfers play at Landmand are cemented here. I think you would absolutely appreciate the scale and the focus on fun out there.
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Thanks, Steve. There are lots of interesting hole designs, and I can see how the finishing stretch can be a fitting climax to a round. Overall, it looks like a pretty challenging golf course, but it's possible to finish birdie-birdie on the last two holes for a satisfying finish.
Have a nice holiday season everybody.
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Adding a few final thoughts here, and I hope others do as well.
If you like fun adventure golf, then Landmand should be on your bucket list.
King + Collins and their build partners have created many unique and memorable holes in a striking setting. Their initial 18 hole design is not something you can easily forget after you have played it.
The vibe is very rural and relaxed, which is a nice contrast to many bustling resorts.
2023 is off to a successful start, as the initial traunch of non resident tee times is largely sold-out for the summer. August is mostly blocked-off right now and hopefully those tee times will open-up at some point. There are good tee times available in September.
I suspect that King + Collins hotline is ringing often now, as owners will like the prospect of selling many tee times in advance like they have been able to do at Sweeten's Cove and now Landmand.
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Does anyone have any information about the geographical spread of tee times booked? It will be nice to have folks travel there and stay for a few days, but I think it would be nicer to have a wonderful course for locals to play without having to make tee times months in advance.
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Since day 1, Will the owner has been adamant that this is a course for locals. Beyond preferential rates, locals have preferential access as well.
I believe one guy from Souix City played the course something like 80 times in the first 90 days, or something crazy like that.
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Landmand was awarded Best New Public course for 2022 by Golf Digest. Congrats to King-Collins and the Andersen family.
http://https://www.golfdigest.com/story/americas-best-new-courses (http://https://www.golfdigest.com/story/americas-best-new-courses)
The Fried Egg podcast #424 with Rob Collins just aired and includes some great Landmand discussion:
http://https://thefriedegg.com/fried-egg-podcast/rob-collins-returns-5/ (http://https://thefriedegg.com/fried-egg-podcast/rob-collins-returns-5/)