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Rob Marshall

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2022, 10:11:16 PM »
LIV sure has an awful lot of conditions and restrictions for alleged "independent contractors"....the irony in light of the primary lawsuit!

Zero surprise...


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-contract-specifics-wall-street-journal-report


Really?  There are only 8 events .. seems like an awesome deal for the players. Media rights .. well, they are essentially selling them, so no irony there. Simple cost / benefit analysis from players that they're choosing a better deal.


8 events this year…….14 + next year.


LIV will set their 2023 schedule against the weaker pga tour events. The strategy for the PGA tour should be to have a decent number of their marquee players play those events. Get Rory etc to play John Deere….
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Tim Leahy

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2022, 11:24:42 PM »
Until LIV gets a national broadcast TV contract they will be irrelevant. So far they have only received negative press and if the Saudi's are "sports washing" it is having the reverse effect and they will shut down the LIV sooner rather than later. :P
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2022, 02:15:45 AM »
Until LIV gets a national broadcast TV contract they will be irrelevant. So far they have only received negative press and if the Saudi's are "sports washing" it is having the reverse effect and they will shut down the LIV sooner rather than later. :P


Probably the most intelligent and logical comment I've read to date
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2022, 05:39:24 AM »
Cary/Tim


Respectfully disagree. Whether you are for or against LIV, it is clear that when they have already contracted a chunk of the worlds best players and have forced the PGA Tour and Euro Tour into reviewing how they operate then to say they are irrelevant if they don't get a TV contract simply doesn't make sense.


As to whether LIV will fold if they don't get a mainstream broadcaster signed up is I think also debateable. The broadcasters like all large corporates are themselves money driven and while they are currently invested in the PGA Tour and Euro Tour and seeking to protect that investment with a bit of LIV bashing, lets see what happens when the existing contracts run down. I imagine the other option for LIV is to create their own viewing platform although being a techno numpty I'm not sure how that would work.


One final point on the idea of sports-washing. It occurs to me that all these arab sheiks couldn't give a toss what you or I think of them so why would they spend lots of money to look good ? A few years ago I'd have put their investment down to them indulging in a bit of rich mans sport but in recent years after seeing how much money is being made by investors in team sports I'm fairly certain they are in this for the money. Just look at the Glazers and Man Utd. Also consider how much the PGA Tour has in assets. Yes the Saudi's are starting from scratch but the most important asset for this particular sports business is the players, and the PGA/Euro Tours failed to secure those assets. More fool them.


Niall     

Dave Doxey

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2022, 09:20:58 AM »

Not to defend LIV, however I find their coverage way more enjoying to watch than the standard weekly PGAT broadcast.
 
Four or more times the frequency of golf shots shown than on the PGAT broadcasts.  Good shots and bad ones. Commentators do not make excuses for bad shots. No long sequences of putting study, fairway walking,  or yardage book reading.  Far fewer puff pieces added as filler.  Most satisfying is the absence of commercials every 5 minutes, but that will probably change if a broadcast network contract emerges.


Whatever the eventual outcome of the PGAT vs. LIV fight, as a golf fan I hope that the conflict causes PGAT and the networks to review and improve the broadcast product that they are offering. It’s all about entertainment.

Craig Sweet

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2022, 09:45:13 AM »
The 54 Hole Tour has not attracted the best players. They have attracted greedy has-been players that no longer can win at the highest level.
He's nuttier than a squirrel turd.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2022, 10:13:27 AM »
What I do not understand is that these pros who consider themselves to be "independent contractors" are now giving up the very thing they claim to be. They must play every LIV event, speak well of LIV, and play some Asian events. They are not very independent anymore.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2022, 10:19:18 AM »
Craig


And if, as predicted, Cam Smith goes to LIV, what then ?


But lets face it, Rory is still one of the PGA Tours biggest draws/best players and there are probably half a dozen guys on the LIV tour who have won a major since Rory won the last of his. So to say that LIV doesn't have some of the best players is a bit ridiculous.


Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2022, 10:23:51 AM »
What I do not understand is that these pros who consider themselves to be "independent contractors" are now giving up the very thing they claim to be. They must play every LIV event, speak well of LIV, and play some Asian events. They are not very independent anymore.


Tommy


That is entirely correct. However the general point some of them were making was that on one hand they played on the PGA Tour on an independent contractor basis, but at the same time the Tour sought to restrict where they could play even though they weren't employees.


I guess you could say that they made the decision that if they weren't going to be allowed to play where they want then they may as well get paid for it.


Niall

John Kavanaugh

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2022, 10:29:19 AM »
Who has time or wants to sit inside and watch golf? When I do watch it is on a mobile device. YouTube is free. The + subscriptions are not.


Betting is exponentially more interesting with a shotgun. Start that is.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2022, 11:00:56 AM »
The 54 Hole Tour has not attracted the best players. They have attracted greedy has-been players that no longer can win at the highest level.


Craig-I understand the animus toward the LIV and it’s players. That said I believe Johnson, Koepka, DeChambeau, and Reed all have the ability to win again at the highest level not to mention Smith if and when he goes. You may be correct regarding the rest of the players until you aren’t. In other words the jury is out.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2022, 11:03:56 AM »
The 54 Hole Tour has not attracted the best players. They have attracted greedy has-been players that no longer can win at the highest level.


The PGA is catfishing you.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2022, 11:05:43 AM »
The 54 Hole Tour has not attracted the best players. They have attracted greedy has-been players that no longer can win at the highest level.


Craig-I understand the animus toward the LIV and it’s players. That said I believe Johnson, Koepka, DeChambeau, and Reed all have the ability to win again at the highest level not to mention Smith if and when he goes. You may be correct regarding the rest of the players until you aren’t. In other words the jury is out.


Good riddance to 3 of the 4 of those guys. Cam Smith will hurt a lot and Dustin Johnson hurts a little. Koepka and DeChambeau are injury plagued and Reed well he's Patrick Reed don't need to say much more.......
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2022, 11:05:48 AM »
Niall,

I think the point(s) here are:

1)  These guys are no more independent contractors as LIV golfers than they were on the PGA Tour.  If anything they have far more contractual obligations than they ever had on the PGA Tour with appearances, apparel, interviews, etc.

2)  A big selling point was "less golf, more family time".  But if they had bothered to do even the simplest of math: 14 LIV Events + 15 PGA Tour events to keep thier card, that would basically double the amount of golf they would need to play. So yea that one is bogus.

3)  As much as these guys claim its real competition, they don't even meet the basic criteria for OWGR points, 75 person field, and with massive guaranteed payouts even when shooting a million over par, they are basically exhibitions.

P.S.  Dave, I thought the XFL was far more entertaining in general over the NFL with all the extra bells and whistles in the broadcast, but the quality of play just wasn't there.  Ditto for LIV where a bunch of has-beens and never-beens, sprinkled in with a few good players, are playing exhibitions.  Its just not interesting...and yes I tried for about 15 minutes before I turned it off.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2022, 11:39:02 AM »
Kalen

Re your first point on them being independent contractors. No they aren't any more, but they are being paid for making some commitments and forfeiting opportunities elsewhere. At the PGA Tour they had commitments and were stopped from taking advantage of other opportunities and all the while they weren't being paid. The PGA Tour didn't even pay them for using their image on marketing. So as I said to Tommy, if you are having to make commitments either way, choosing the option that guarantees payment makes sense.

With regards your second point on number of tournaments, initially they were only playing 8 tournaments this year IIRC. That is where the comment came from about playing a reduced schedule. Next year it is up to 14 and I suppose if they wanted they could play only 14. I'm not sure how many of them stated they were only going to play the minimum number but clearly the option is there so it isn't necessarily a bogus argument albeit the benefit of a limited schedule is reduced as they will have more tournaments that they require to play going forward.

On the OWGR ranking criteria, here's something I picked up on the wikipedia page on their technical committee which is "to devise, maintain, review, update, administer and promote the recognition of a system that fairly ranks the relative performances of male professional golfers participating in the leading golf tournaments throughout the world, taking into account all relevant factors including, amongst other matters, the date of the tournament, the prestige of the tournament, the standard of the other participants and the value of the tournament prize fund."

Given the OWGR is used by the R&A and the Masters to pick the best field for their tournaments, I imagine the criteria will either be tweaked to suit as above (more likely IMO) or that LIV will evolve their format to conform (less likely IMO). 

Niall

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2022, 01:19:11 PM »

Not to defend LIV, however I find their coverage way more enjoying to watch than the standard weekly PGAT broadcast.
 
Four or more times the frequency of golf shots shown than on the PGAT broadcasts.  Good shots and bad ones. Commentators do not make excuses for bad shots. No long sequences of putting study, fairway walking,  or yardage book reading.  Far fewer puff pieces added as filler.  Most satisfying is the absence of commercials every 5 minutes, but that will probably change if a broadcast network contract emerges.


Whatever the eventual outcome of the PGAT vs. LIV fight, as a golf fan I hope that the conflict causes PGAT and the networks to review and improve the broadcast product that they are offering. It’s all about entertainment.


I found the 15 min. spent watching LIV play Pumpkin Ridge to be truly painful. All the gushing and raving about LIV made me ill - and I was a big Arlo White fan.


Furthermore, I saw some of the worst shots I've ever seen professionals play. My theory is that the games of all these LIV defectors are going straight downhill given that they have no real pressure to perform. And, many of them will (try to) come crawling back to their previous tours when LIV dies a quick death




John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2022, 01:37:34 PM »
Watching Pat Perez cashing in 4 Aces team cash is like watching Lottery Dream Home. I was thrilled to see Bedminster as it was the darling of Redanman prior to 1/6. Best architecture on WIFI that week.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 01:42:55 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2022, 04:43:08 PM »
A benefit of the shotgun start is that you can follow Pat Perez while watching the leaders. Because of team play you may even see him whack a few.

Jim O’Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2022, 12:49:45 PM »
There has to be something more too this or he is a complete idiot. His lawyer was bad mouthing LIV and anyone who would take their money on twitter earlier this year. Chamblee ,NBC and the Golf Channels lawyers will have a field day deposing Reeds college teammates, coaches, and people like Peter Kostis who will testify they have seen him cheat. This reputation will only get worse, if that’s possible.


Agreed. And regardless of the cheating accusations, in reference to his "character" or lack thereof, those same teammates and coaches at UGA will testify to the fact that Reed stole a putter and money from teammates and was kicked off the team and out of school, prompting him to transfer to August State in August, GA, according to a Shane Ryan book.

The excerpt outlines an incident in which Reed’s teammates confronted him after he attempted to hit a ball that wasn’t his. Reed had hit his ball into the rough and, upon finding another, closer ball, started to line up his next shot. When his teammates stopped him, Reed apparently pled ignorance. As the story goes, the teammates “were convinced he had been caught red-handed trying to cheat.”
[/size]Another incident in the excerpt paints Reed as a thief. His teammates assert that he stole things from the university locker room, including a watch, a Scotty Cameron putter, and $400 cash. According to the excerpt, Reed “showed up the next day with a large wad of cash,” which a teammate confronted him about. Reed’s response was that he had “hustled” a certain professor out of the cash in a round of golf. When the professor was asked about it by this teammate, he responded that he hadn’t played Reed in weeks and had no idea about the cash.
[/size]The excerpt also goes into some depth about Reed’s character, painting him as arrogant, rude, and a win-at-all-costs type. It also delves deeper into personal matters such as issues with his parents and drinking, among other topics. We won’t go into those topics, as such things really are not for the public domain to judge. The excerpt relies partly on these personal matters to render what seems like a verdict for Reed and his life: “He is golf’s remorseless villain, and stands as a rare exception to the old proverb—not everybody, it seems, loves a winner.” Very harsh words indeed.




Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2022, 08:28:48 PM »
Not to defend LIV, however I find their coverage way more enjoying to watch than the standard weekly PGAT broadcast.
Of course - it's just self-produced and live streamed on YouTube, with no commercials at all. That's unlikely to last.


I found the 15 min. spent watching LIV play Pumpkin Ridge to be truly painful. All the gushing and raving about LIV made me ill - and I was a big Arlo White fan.
Painful sounds about right.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2022, 10:58:22 AM »
Anyone who thinks GN is doing anything but trying to get revenge needs to read this Tom Boswell column from 30 years ago.


Now it sounds like the players who didn't defect want a tour-within-a-tour for themselves...hmmm.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

JohnVDB

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2022, 11:37:48 AM »
Anyone who thinks GN is doing anything but trying to get revenge needs to read this Tom Boswell column from 30 years ago.


Now it sounds like the players who didn't defect want a tour-within-a-tour for themselves...hmmm.


As Yogi said, “It’s like deja vu all over again.”

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2022, 11:51:53 AM »
Niall.....I will say it again, the 54 hole tour does not have the best players.  They have WELL KNOW NAMES, but NOT the best golfers.


These guys made their NAME on the PGA Tour and now they are turning their back on that tour to chase blood money.  There's a name for people that forget how they got where they are in life.
He's nuttier than a squirrel turd.

Peter Pallotta

Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2022, 01:30:48 PM »
Now it sounds like the players who didn't defect want a tour-within-a-tour for themselves...hmmm.
It sounds something like the latest iteration (and modern day version) of the 'Tournament Players Division' that came about in the late 60s, when the two biggest names of the day turned their backs on the PGA of America (the organization-framework that had made them stars in the first place), and on its legacy and decades of tradition, to lay the foundations for what became the PGA Tour -- and this mostly for one reason only, ie so they could make more money. During his comments in July at the Open, Tiger referenced those times-changes, but only to argue that they weren't at all analogous to the LIV situation, and were undertaken with much different goals in mind; but I'm not so sure. Granted, one key difference is that the Palmer-Nicklaus breakaway movement, unlike LIV, emerged out of and remained firmly 'in house', ie an American tour, run by Americans, for the benefit of Americans (and/or those who called America home.) I find it telling that Mr. Nicklaus himself has not been one of the outraged voices condemning LIV and the 'defectors'; people might say that's because he's old and compromised and irrelevant and a friend of Norman and Trump -- but I think it may be because he's honest and knows his history and has perspective and has no golf or TV career to build or book to sell. This 'tour within a tour' idea with select events and huge purses reminds me of our governments' decades long fight against the moral scourge of organized crime -- ie, it turns out we didn't actually have any problems with gambling or drugs after all, we just wanted to be profiting from them ourselves instead of having all that money going to swarthy looking men with foreign sounding names.




« Last Edit: August 21, 2022, 01:49:27 PM by PPallotta »

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