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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: V. Kmetz on August 17, 2022, 09:26:09 AM

Title: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: V. Kmetz on August 17, 2022, 09:26:09 AM
Here's another at the trough:


https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34410268/liv-golf-reed-files-lawsuit-alleges-defamation.

What a joke, hopefully thrown out and repudiated as quickly as the FedEx whine...yet if Chamblee's coverage is deemed actionable defamation, Reed's lawyers ought to be sent the relevant threads from GCA, erupting from his rules missteps over the last few years...

By now the LIV sponsored lawsuits must be ahead of LIV sponsored events by a 3 to 1 margin, at least.

Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 17, 2022, 09:34:38 AM
Both sides will need expert witnesses. It will be nice to see a rules dude get paid.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Steve Lapper on August 17, 2022, 09:55:40 AM
Both sides will need expert witnesses. It will be nice to see a rules dude get paid.




Won't make it that far.


As Eamon Lynch noted on Twitter this am, I can't wait for Golf Channel & Brandel's counsel to request(subpoena) the PGA Tour's private discipline file for Reed. Ultimately that could come public. Sounds like the plaintiff and his counsel haven't thought that far ahead.


Screw Reed and LIV
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jim Franklin on August 17, 2022, 10:02:57 AM
Both sides will need expert witnesses. It will be nice to see a rules dude get paid.




Won't make it that far.


As Eamon Lynch noted on Twitter this am, I can't wait for Golf Channel & Brandel's counsel to request(subpoena) the PGA Tour's private discipline file for Reed. Ultimately that could come public. Sounds like the plaintiff and his counsel haven't thought that far ahead.


Screw Reed and LIV


Bingo.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 17, 2022, 10:10:07 AM
Making fun of Reed has become blood sport at LIV events. It was hilarious watching him get a patron kicked out after Reed hit a horrible chip and the guy asked him why he didn’t fluff the lie.


We don’t know Reed yet we hate him. The courts are the best avenue to discover why. Who are Chamblee’s peers that will sit on a jury? I doubt if even Brandel could name 12.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Peter Sayegh on August 17, 2022, 10:58:54 AM
Making fun of Reed has become blood sport at LIV events. It was hilarious watching him get a patron kicked out after Reed hit a horrible chip and the guy asked him why he didn’t fluff the lie.


We don’t know Reed yet we hate him. The courts are the best avenue to discover why. Who are Chamblee’s peers that will sit on a jury? I doubt if even Brandel could name 12.
I'm interested to see all the journalists that dubbed him Captain America report this.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: David Cronan on August 17, 2022, 11:50:01 AM
Strange times. How does somebody sue for defamation of character, when he has no character?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Peter Pallotta on August 17, 2022, 11:58:04 AM
LIV means never having to say you're sorry.

Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 17, 2022, 12:00:56 PM
The only unforgivable offense is success.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Kalen Braley on August 17, 2022, 12:16:18 PM
I haven't watched any LIV events, so I wasn't aware Reed is getting heckled even among his own people, only the best people of course!   ;D

P.S.  As much as I'm not a fan of LIV, the non-golf related stuff has certainly been entertaining...
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 17, 2022, 12:20:29 PM
Wait until the guy thrown out of Bedminster is deposed. Telling the truth about why he thinks Reed is a cheater will be damning. And hilarious.


Btw. Why are these threads still being started when it has been made clear that they are not wanted?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Michael Dugger on August 17, 2022, 12:59:59 PM
Some of you have probably heard the story but if you have not it's just too good to not reference again.


Someone posed the question: What fellow tour pro would you be LEAST likely to assist if it appeared they were about to get into a physical altercation with someone at the bar.


Patrick Reed, #1 answer, followed by Bubba. 
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 17, 2022, 01:51:11 PM
Some of you have probably heard the story but if you have not it's just too good to not reference again.


Someone posed the question: What fellow tour pro would you be LEAST likely to assist if it appeared they were about to get into a physical altercation with someone at the bar.


Patrick Reed, #1 answer, followed by Bubba.


I've known guys with "Reed Face" my entire life. They learn how to fight young.


If you can't get a bud to assist you in a bar altercation it's probably you, not them.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: V. Kmetz on August 17, 2022, 02:41:34 PM

I've known guys with "Reed Face" my entire life. They learn how to fight young.



Oh good, we'll call you as one of the deponents for the defense, as you agree that Reed Face is a common, non-Chamblee assigned condition, as is the pugnacious interplay with those in his environment... you answered your own question... we DO know him...even YOU do... and that is why he is hated...well before LIV... boy you wrapped that up quick.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 17, 2022, 02:50:37 PM
Quality rant.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 17, 2022, 03:09:01 PM
It was not my intention to make lite of bullying. For anyone offended, my apologies.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John_Cullum on August 17, 2022, 04:30:09 PM
Who could have seen this coming?


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69344.msg1665346.html#msg1665346
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: cary lichtenstein on August 17, 2022, 05:46:24 PM
I watch the 4 majors, The Players, The Fedex Cup playoffs and the tournaments that have an excellent leaderboard on Sunday.


I would watch LIV only if it had a compelling leaderboard, probably only on the last 6 holes the last day.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim_Cronin on August 17, 2022, 06:25:02 PM
This suit will never get anywhere. Reed is a public figure and thus has a higher bar to prove malice. New York Times Co. v. Sullivan in 1964.


Though it would be fun if, in seeking to prove Reed's character, Chamblee's lawyer called Reed's parents as character witnesses.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim Martin on August 17, 2022, 06:46:33 PM
No mention of the Reed suit on either the Golf Channel or it’s parent company NBC.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 17, 2022, 08:15:58 PM
There has to be something more too this or he is a complete idiot. His lawyer was bad mouthing LIV and anyone who would take their money on twitter earlier this year. Chamblee ,NBC and the Golf Channels lawyers will have a field day deposing Reeds college teammates, coaches, and people like Peter Kostis who will testify they have seen him cheat. This reputation will only get worse, if that’s possible.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Kalen Braley on August 18, 2022, 12:56:30 PM
LIV sure has an awful lot of conditions and restrictions for alleged "independent contractors"....the irony in light of the primary lawsuit!

Zero surprise...


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-contract-specifics-wall-street-journal-report
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Thomas Dai on August 18, 2022, 04:48:11 PM
Out of curiosity I looked-up where the Saudi oil industry, ie essentially the source of the LIV golf money, originated and how it developed - https://www.aramco.com/en/who-we-are/overview/our-history# (https://www.aramco.com/en/who-we-are/overview/our-history#)
Interesting read although it’s their own condensed version of their origins and what’s happened since.
Atb
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Mike Wagner on August 18, 2022, 07:18:05 PM
LIV sure has an awful lot of conditions and restrictions for alleged "independent contractors"....the irony in light of the primary lawsuit!

Zero surprise...


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-contract-specifics-wall-street-journal-report (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-contract-specifics-wall-street-journal-report)


Really?  There are only 8 events .. seems like an awesome deal for the players. Media rights .. well, they are essentially selling them, so no irony there. Simple cost / benefit analysis from players that they're choosing a better deal.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jim_Coleman on August 18, 2022, 07:30:21 PM
   I’m pretty sure it is acknowledged that LIV players are employees, not independent contractors.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 18, 2022, 10:11:16 PM
LIV sure has an awful lot of conditions and restrictions for alleged "independent contractors"....the irony in light of the primary lawsuit!

Zero surprise...


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-contract-specifics-wall-street-journal-report (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-contract-specifics-wall-street-journal-report)


Really?  There are only 8 events .. seems like an awesome deal for the players. Media rights .. well, they are essentially selling them, so no irony there. Simple cost / benefit analysis from players that they're choosing a better deal.


8 events this year…….14 + next year.


LIV will set their 2023 schedule against the weaker pga tour events. The strategy for the PGA tour should be to have a decent number of their marquee players play those events. Get Rory etc to play John Deere….
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim Leahy on August 18, 2022, 11:24:42 PM
Until LIV gets a national broadcast TV contract they will be irrelevant. So far they have only received negative press and if the Saudi's are "sports washing" it is having the reverse effect and they will shut down the LIV sooner rather than later. :P
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: cary lichtenstein on August 19, 2022, 02:15:45 AM
Until LIV gets a national broadcast TV contract they will be irrelevant. So far they have only received negative press and if the Saudi's are "sports washing" it is having the reverse effect and they will shut down the LIV sooner rather than later. :P


Probably the most intelligent and logical comment I've read to date
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Niall C on August 19, 2022, 05:39:24 AM
Cary/Tim


Respectfully disagree. Whether you are for or against LIV, it is clear that when they have already contracted a chunk of the worlds best players and have forced the PGA Tour and Euro Tour into reviewing how they operate then to say they are irrelevant if they don't get a TV contract simply doesn't make sense.


As to whether LIV will fold if they don't get a mainstream broadcaster signed up is I think also debateable. The broadcasters like all large corporates are themselves money driven and while they are currently invested in the PGA Tour and Euro Tour and seeking to protect that investment with a bit of LIV bashing, lets see what happens when the existing contracts run down. I imagine the other option for LIV is to create their own viewing platform although being a techno numpty I'm not sure how that would work.


One final point on the idea of sports-washing. It occurs to me that all these arab sheiks couldn't give a toss what you or I think of them so why would they spend lots of money to look good ? A few years ago I'd have put their investment down to them indulging in a bit of rich mans sport but in recent years after seeing how much money is being made by investors in team sports I'm fairly certain they are in this for the money. Just look at the Glazers and Man Utd. Also consider how much the PGA Tour has in assets. Yes the Saudi's are starting from scratch but the most important asset for this particular sports business is the players, and the PGA/Euro Tours failed to secure those assets. More fool them.


Niall     
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Dave Doxey on August 19, 2022, 09:20:58 AM

Not to defend LIV, however I find their coverage way more enjoying to watch than the standard weekly PGAT broadcast.
 
Four or more times the frequency of golf shots shown than on the PGAT broadcasts.  Good shots and bad ones. Commentators do not make excuses for bad shots. No long sequences of putting study, fairway walking,  or yardage book reading.  Far fewer puff pieces added as filler.  Most satisfying is the absence of commercials every 5 minutes, but that will probably change if a broadcast network contract emerges.


Whatever the eventual outcome of the PGAT vs. LIV fight, as a golf fan I hope that the conflict causes PGAT and the networks to review and improve the broadcast product that they are offering. It’s all about entertainment.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Craig Sweet on August 19, 2022, 09:45:13 AM
The 54 Hole Tour has not attracted the best players. They have attracted greedy has-been players that no longer can win at the highest level.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on August 19, 2022, 10:13:27 AM
What I do not understand is that these pros who consider themselves to be "independent contractors" are now giving up the very thing they claim to be. They must play every LIV event, speak well of LIV, and play some Asian events. They are not very independent anymore.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Niall C on August 19, 2022, 10:19:18 AM
Craig


And if, as predicted, Cam Smith goes to LIV, what then ?


But lets face it, Rory is still one of the PGA Tours biggest draws/best players and there are probably half a dozen guys on the LIV tour who have won a major since Rory won the last of his. So to say that LIV doesn't have some of the best players is a bit ridiculous.


Niall
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Niall C on August 19, 2022, 10:23:51 AM
What I do not understand is that these pros who consider themselves to be "independent contractors" are now giving up the very thing they claim to be. They must play every LIV event, speak well of LIV, and play some Asian events. They are not very independent anymore.


Tommy


That is entirely correct. However the general point some of them were making was that on one hand they played on the PGA Tour on an independent contractor basis, but at the same time the Tour sought to restrict where they could play even though they weren't employees.


I guess you could say that they made the decision that if they weren't going to be allowed to play where they want then they may as well get paid for it.


Niall
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 19, 2022, 10:29:19 AM
Who has time or wants to sit inside and watch golf? When I do watch it is on a mobile device. YouTube is free. The + subscriptions are not.


Betting is exponentially more interesting with a shotgun. Start that is.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim Martin on August 19, 2022, 11:00:56 AM
The 54 Hole Tour has not attracted the best players. They have attracted greedy has-been players that no longer can win at the highest level.


Craig-I understand the animus toward the LIV and it’s players. That said I believe Johnson, Koepka, DeChambeau, and Reed all have the ability to win again at the highest level not to mention Smith if and when he goes. You may be correct regarding the rest of the players until you aren’t. In other words the jury is out.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 19, 2022, 11:03:56 AM
The 54 Hole Tour has not attracted the best players. They have attracted greedy has-been players that no longer can win at the highest level.


The PGA is catfishing you.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 19, 2022, 11:05:43 AM
The 54 Hole Tour has not attracted the best players. They have attracted greedy has-been players that no longer can win at the highest level.


Craig-I understand the animus toward the LIV and it’s players. That said I believe Johnson, Koepka, DeChambeau, and Reed all have the ability to win again at the highest level not to mention Smith if and when he goes. You may be correct regarding the rest of the players until you aren’t. In other words the jury is out.


Good riddance to 3 of the 4 of those guys. Cam Smith will hurt a lot and Dustin Johnson hurts a little. Koepka and DeChambeau are injury plagued and Reed well he's Patrick Reed don't need to say much more.......
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Kalen Braley on August 19, 2022, 11:05:48 AM
Niall,

I think the point(s) here are:

1)  These guys are no more independent contractors as LIV golfers than they were on the PGA Tour.  If anything they have far more contractual obligations than they ever had on the PGA Tour with appearances, apparel, interviews, etc.

2)  A big selling point was "less golf, more family time".  But if they had bothered to do even the simplest of math: 14 LIV Events + 15 PGA Tour events to keep thier card, that would basically double the amount of golf they would need to play. So yea that one is bogus.

3)  As much as these guys claim its real competition, they don't even meet the basic criteria for OWGR points, 75 person field, and with massive guaranteed payouts even when shooting a million over par, they are basically exhibitions.

P.S.  Dave, I thought the XFL was far more entertaining in general over the NFL with all the extra bells and whistles in the broadcast, but the quality of play just wasn't there.  Ditto for LIV where a bunch of has-beens and never-beens, sprinkled in with a few good players, are playing exhibitions.  Its just not interesting...and yes I tried for about 15 minutes before I turned it off.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Niall C on August 19, 2022, 11:39:02 AM
Kalen

Re your first point on them being independent contractors. No they aren't any more, but they are being paid for making some commitments and forfeiting opportunities elsewhere. At the PGA Tour they had commitments and were stopped from taking advantage of other opportunities and all the while they weren't being paid. The PGA Tour didn't even pay them for using their image on marketing. So as I said to Tommy, if you are having to make commitments either way, choosing the option that guarantees payment makes sense.

With regards your second point on number of tournaments, initially they were only playing 8 tournaments this year IIRC. That is where the comment came from about playing a reduced schedule. Next year it is up to 14 and I suppose if they wanted they could play only 14. I'm not sure how many of them stated they were only going to play the minimum number but clearly the option is there so it isn't necessarily a bogus argument albeit the benefit of a limited schedule is reduced as they will have more tournaments that they require to play going forward.

On the OWGR ranking criteria, here's something I picked up on the wikipedia page on their technical committee which is "to devise, maintain, review, update, administer and promote the recognition of a system that fairly ranks the relative performances of male professional golfers participating in the leading golf tournaments throughout the world, taking into account all relevant factors including, amongst other matters, the date of the tournament, the prestige of the tournament, the standard of the other participants and the value of the tournament prize fund."

Given the OWGR is used by the R&A and the Masters to pick the best field for their tournaments, I imagine the criteria will either be tweaked to suit as above (more likely IMO) or that LIV will evolve their format to conform (less likely IMO). 

Niall
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Will Lozier on August 19, 2022, 01:19:11 PM

Not to defend LIV, however I find their coverage way more enjoying to watch than the standard weekly PGAT broadcast.
 
Four or more times the frequency of golf shots shown than on the PGAT broadcasts.  Good shots and bad ones. Commentators do not make excuses for bad shots. No long sequences of putting study, fairway walking,  or yardage book reading.  Far fewer puff pieces added as filler.  Most satisfying is the absence of commercials every 5 minutes, but that will probably change if a broadcast network contract emerges.


Whatever the eventual outcome of the PGAT vs. LIV fight, as a golf fan I hope that the conflict causes PGAT and the networks to review and improve the broadcast product that they are offering. It’s all about entertainment.


I found the 15 min. spent watching LIV play Pumpkin Ridge to be truly painful. All the gushing and raving about LIV made me ill - and I was a big Arlo White fan.


Furthermore, I saw some of the worst shots I've ever seen professionals play. My theory is that the games of all these LIV defectors are going straight downhill given that they have no real pressure to perform. And, many of them will (try to) come crawling back to their previous tours when LIV dies a quick death



Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 19, 2022, 01:37:34 PM
Watching Pat Perez cashing in 4 Aces team cash is like watching Lottery Dream Home. I was thrilled to see Bedminster as it was the darling of Redanman prior to 1/6. Best architecture on WIFI that week.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 19, 2022, 03:27:17 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/cycling/pat-perez-drops-out-of-liv-golfers-lawsuit-against-pga-tour/ar-AA10QZ8t?cvid=2a792f5694744621a111d4ffb3390f71
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 19, 2022, 04:43:08 PM
A benefit of the shotgun start is that you can follow Pat Perez while watching the leaders. Because of team play you may even see him whack a few.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jim O’Kane on August 20, 2022, 12:49:45 PM
There has to be something more too this or he is a complete idiot. His lawyer was bad mouthing LIV and anyone who would take their money on twitter earlier this year. Chamblee ,NBC and the Golf Channels lawyers will have a field day deposing Reeds college teammates, coaches, and people like Peter Kostis who will testify they have seen him cheat. This reputation will only get worse, if that’s possible.


Agreed. And regardless of the cheating accusations, in reference to his "character" or lack thereof, those same teammates and coaches at UGA will testify to the fact that Reed stole a putter and money from teammates and was kicked off the team and out of school, prompting him to transfer to August State in August, GA, according to a Shane Ryan book.

The excerpt outlines an incident in which Reed’s teammates confronted him after he attempted to hit a ball that wasn’t his. Reed had hit his ball into the rough and, upon finding another, closer ball, started to line up his next shot. When his teammates stopped him, Reed apparently pled ignorance. As the story goes, the teammates “were convinced he had been caught red-handed trying to cheat.”
[/size]Another incident in the excerpt paints Reed as a thief. His teammates assert that he stole things from the university locker room, including a watch, a Scotty Cameron putter, and $400 cash. According to the excerpt, Reed “showed up the next day with a large wad of cash,” which a teammate confronted him about. Reed’s response was that he had “hustled” a certain professor out of the cash in a round of golf. When the professor was asked about it by this teammate, he responded that he hadn’t played Reed in weeks and had no idea about the cash.
[/size]The excerpt also goes into some depth about Reed’s character, painting him as arrogant, rude, and a win-at-all-costs type. It also delves deeper into personal matters such as issues with his parents and drinking, among other topics. We won’t go into those topics, as such things really are not for the public domain to judge. The excerpt relies partly on these personal matters to render what seems like a verdict for Reed and his life: “He is golf’s remorseless villain, and stands as a rare exception to the old proverb—not everybody, it seems, loves a winner.” Very harsh words indeed.



Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on August 20, 2022, 08:28:48 PM
Not to defend LIV, however I find their coverage way more enjoying to watch than the standard weekly PGAT broadcast.
Of course - it's just self-produced and live streamed on YouTube, with no commercials at all. That's unlikely to last.


I found the 15 min. spent watching LIV play Pumpkin Ridge to be truly painful. All the gushing and raving about LIV made me ill - and I was a big Arlo White fan.
Painful sounds about right.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ken Moum on August 21, 2022, 10:58:22 AM
Anyone who thinks GN is doing anything but trying to get revenge needs to read this Tom Boswell column  (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1994/11/19/norman-golfing-for-greed-in-plans-for-world-tour/9a1e4fbf-87b6-4944-9f00-0b9414c9a28b)from 30 years ago.


Now it sounds like the players who didn't defect want a tour-within-a-tour (https://golf.com/news/report-tiger-woods-meeting-tour-within-tour/) for themselves...hmmm.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: JohnVDB on August 21, 2022, 11:37:48 AM
Anyone who thinks GN is doing anything but trying to get revenge needs to read this Tom Boswell column  (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1994/11/19/norman-golfing-for-greed-in-plans-for-world-tour/9a1e4fbf-87b6-4944-9f00-0b9414c9a28b)from 30 years ago.


Now it sounds like the players who didn't defect want a tour-within-a-tour (https://golf.com/news/report-tiger-woods-meeting-tour-within-tour/) for themselves...hmmm.


As Yogi said, “It’s like deja vu all over again.”
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Craig Sweet on August 21, 2022, 11:51:53 AM
Niall.....I will say it again, the 54 hole tour does not have the best players.  They have WELL KNOW NAMES, but NOT the best golfers.


These guys made their NAME on the PGA Tour and now they are turning their back on that tour to chase blood money.  There's a name for people that forget how they got where they are in life.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Peter Pallotta on August 21, 2022, 01:30:48 PM
Now it sounds like the players who didn't defect want a tour-within-a-tour (https://golf.com/news/report-tiger-woods-meeting-tour-within-tour/) for themselves...hmmm.
It sounds something like the latest iteration (and modern day version) of the 'Tournament Players Division' that came about in the late 60s, when the two biggest names of the day turned their backs on the PGA of America (the organization-framework that had made them stars in the first place), and on its legacy and decades of tradition, to lay the foundations for what became the PGA Tour -- and this mostly for one reason only, ie so they could make more money. During his comments in July at the Open, Tiger referenced those times-changes, but only to argue that they weren't at all analogous to the LIV situation, and were undertaken with much different goals in mind; but I'm not so sure. Granted, one key difference is that the Palmer-Nicklaus breakaway movement, unlike LIV, emerged out of and remained firmly 'in house', ie an American tour, run by Americans, for the benefit of Americans (and/or those who called America home.) I find it telling that Mr. Nicklaus himself has not been one of the outraged voices condemning LIV and the 'defectors'; people might say that's because he's old and compromised and irrelevant and a friend of Norman and Trump -- but I think it may be because he's honest and knows his history and has perspective and has no golf or TV career to build or book to sell. This 'tour within a tour' idea with select events and huge purses reminds me of our governments' decades long fight against the moral scourge of organized crime -- ie, it turns out we didn't actually have any problems with gambling or drugs after all, we just wanted to be profiting from them ourselves instead of having all that money going to swarthy looking men with foreign sounding names.




Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Sean_A on August 21, 2022, 07:05:19 PM
Niall.....I will say it again, the 54 hole tour does not have the best players.  They have WELL KNOW NAMES, but NOT the best golfers.


These guys made their NAME on the PGA Tour and now they are turning their back on that tour to chase blood money.  There's a name for people that forget how they got where they are in life.

You are confused. Golfers make the tour and are the Tour. If there was no PGAT there would be and there are are other tours. Its not like the Tour is a league of rich owners who risk a ton of capital to own and operate a pro team. All the money generated by the Tour is from golfers. In truth, all the Tour personnel are very lucky to be earning a very good living off golfers.

Ciao
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 21, 2022, 07:33:01 PM
Niall.....I will say it again, the 54 hole tour does not have the best players.  They have WELL KNOW NAMES, but NOT the best golfers.


These guys made their NAME on the PGA Tour and now they are turning their back on that tour to chase blood money.  There's a name for people that forget how they got where they are in life.

You are confused. Golfers make the tour and are the Tour. If there was no PGAT there would be and there are are other tours. Its not like the Tour is a league of rich owners who risk a ton of capital to own and operate a pro team. All the money generated by the Tour is from golfers. In truth, all the Tour personnel are very lucky to be earning a very good living off golfers.

Ciao


The price of gasoline has come down since we bought into this travesty.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ken Moum on August 22, 2022, 01:51:36 AM
Now Eamon Lynch is saying it's going to be one-day "stadium" events. 


Huh?


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/08/21/tiger-woods-rory-mcilroy-pga-tour-new-technology-driven-series/
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: cary lichtenstein on August 22, 2022, 11:30:25 AM
According to LIV, 7 more players will be joining them at the end of the Fedex Cup. Anyone care to venture a guess as to who these are?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 22, 2022, 11:40:06 AM
I wonder how many kids are hitting putts on a practice green today to win a LIV tour contract...............
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Bruce Katona on August 22, 2022, 12:00:04 PM
My twin brother retired (lucky b*stard) this past Friday.  On Saturday his family held a small retirement lunch for him at a restaurant not far from their home just north of Wilmington where the BMW was being played.


At the lunch was a old dear friend of my clones, who has done lots of USGA refereeing at many events we've all seen on TV (many of you would recognize the face as the past few years he's doe lots of high profile events).  When we spoke, I said to him "I'm hoping LIV gives you a ring now that you're time with the USGA is done, Slugger White needs a right hand."  To which his wife said " So do I, with what they pay we could retire earlier."


LIV $$$ is for more than just the guys between the ropes swinging the clubs.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: George Pazin on August 22, 2022, 02:15:55 PM
Nice posts, Niall, as always.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Daryl David on August 22, 2022, 03:36:53 PM
The 54 Hole Tour has not attracted the best players. They have attracted greedy has-been players that no longer can win at the highest level.


The big ticket items he says were discussed at the meeting:


-18 no-cut tournaments featuring the top 60 with $20 million purses


-The PGA Tour shifting to a for-profit business model


-$500,000 advances for the non-top 60 and gobs of private equity money coming to the rescue.



Looks like the PGAT is going to look more like the “54 Hole Tour”. Just goes to show there are never black and white answers in business. Competition changes the terrain.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Peter Pallotta on August 22, 2022, 04:09:21 PM
Daryl -- yes, which puts the issue of world ranking points and how they'll be determined in a new light -- and in turn the question of access to the Majors for not otherwise exempt LIV members.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on August 22, 2022, 07:32:56 PM
Honest question - do they give out OWGR points for the Tour Championship this week?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on August 22, 2022, 09:03:15 PM
Honest question - do they give out OWGR points for the Tour Championship this week?
Yes, but the players qualified to get there. They use the "real" leaderboard, which is a bit of a weird thing, since if you have a two-shot lead in the real tournament you would play the 18th hole differently than if you were trailing by one in the OWGR shadow leaderboard.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on August 22, 2022, 11:56:36 PM
Thanks, by real leaderboard you mean the score it based on actual strokes taken through the four rounds, not the adapted system were they leader starts at -10, correct?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Edward Glidewell on August 23, 2022, 12:20:12 AM
If they do have 18 no cut events for the top 60 players, it seems like most of the other PGA events will slowly die. They'll basically all become alternate field events/glorified Korn Ferry tournaments, because none of the top 60 players are going to show up for them between those special events and the majors.


The money will dry up quickly for those other events, unless the whole model changes (which I guess has also been discussed).
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on August 23, 2022, 07:22:41 AM
Thanks, by real leaderboard you mean the score it based on actual strokes taken through the four rounds, not the adapted system were they leader starts at -10, correct?
Yes.


If they do have 18 no cut events for the top 60 players, it seems like most of the other PGA events will slowly die.
They don't show up for them now. One or two here and there… but we already know what the "bigger" elevated events are. I think there's a much greater chance of the Tour dying if they keep doing the same thing, not if they do something adjacent to what's being discussed.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on August 23, 2022, 09:54:15 AM
Honest question - do they give out OWGR points for the Tour Championship this week?
Yes, but the players qualified to get there. They use the "real" leaderboard, which is a bit of a weird thing, since if you have a two-shot lead in the real tournament you would play the 18th hole differently than if you were trailing by one in the OWGR shadow leaderboard.
Will Zal had to drop out of the TC.  He comes in 30th and gets $500k.  Does he get OWGR points for coming in 30th, despite not playing?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ken Moum on August 23, 2022, 10:39:23 AM
If they do have 18 no cut events for the top 60 players, it seems like most of the other PGA events will slowly die. They'll basically all become alternate field events/glorified Korn Ferry tournaments, because none of the top 60 players are going to show up for them between those special events and the majors.


The money will dry up quickly for those other events, unless the whole model changes (which I guess has also been discussed).


Perhaps, but a bigger question that no one seems to have asked is, If the "top 60 players are playing in big-money, no-cut event as a tour-within-a-tour on the PGAT, how does someone who is, say 85th on the ranking move up into the top 60?


I had this question about the WGC events because they were supposed to do the same thing.  Pay the top guys more without a cut to guarantee these supposed elite fields all the fans want to see. But if they had been successful, those 60 players would have made so much more money that their positions in the WGC events would have been virtually guaranteed...perhaps for several years.


Let's assume this new version is adopted, and two or three players soon are consistently finishing at the bottom of the "elite fields" meanwhile kids like Scheffler, or Zalatoris, or Cam Young are tearing up the regular tour, but thanks to the purse disparity the money they're winning still isn't enough to move them into the top 60.


Will fans still think the "elite" events are showcasing the best players?


Personally, one of the reasons I watch the little golf I do is to see some Cinderella story either happen, or come close to happening.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on August 23, 2022, 10:45:56 AM
Hearing that the PGAT may opt to cede its "non-profit" status, I am guessing that a large part of the game's future will have private equity capital behind it.


Not sure if one or two PE giants will step in with a large foot print and commensurate financial commitment, or if these smaller events will see a combo of corporate and PE capital taking over.


Sports/Media is indeed a ripe "vertical" in PE's universe and has yet not included golf events.


I believe the Taylor Made deal was one of the mid-market "Deals of the Year" when KPS Partners sold it for a 7-8x Cash on cash return. Sure, that's equipment, but it may give investors optimism as the game is on a noticable growth curve coming out of COVID.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Greg Krueger on August 23, 2022, 11:03:34 AM
The LIV players are going to drop like bricks in the World Rankings which means they won't be playing in the Majors unless they are a past champion. Looks like it would be 2024 at the earliest for OWR Points. Enjoy your money boys!
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: jeffwarne on August 23, 2022, 11:28:08 AM
The LIV players are going to drop like bricks in the World Rankings which means they won't be playing in the Majors unless they are a past champion. Looks like it would be 2024 at the earliest for OWR Points. Enjoy your money boys!


I'm not a LIV guy, but if the Majors ignore some of the best players in the world, they will eventually cease to be majors.
The Us Open is still pretty "Open" with many qualifying spots available, though ignoring LIV players who would've qualified(potentially)via OWGR would somewhat weaken the fields as those players wouldn't automatically play their way through one and two day qualifiers where there are quite a few spots available.
the Open would really drop in stature as their are only 12 spots available in Open qualifying (a negative development IMHO)
therefore far less players from LIV would have a chance to qualify.


PGA is already on the cusp and The Masters has their set of rules but eventually, the loss of many past major champions and OWGR players would reduce its stature
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on August 23, 2022, 11:29:10 AM
The LIV players are going to drop like bricks in the World Rankings which means they won't be playing in the Majors unless they are a past champion. Looks like it would be 2024 at the earliest for OWR Points. Enjoy your money boys!


1. The Masters: Isnt this basically an "Invitational" tourney where the hosts can invite whomever they want?


2. The US Open: Can't the LIV guys just try to qualify locally/regionally for a spot?


3. The Open: same thing. LIVers can try to qualify.


4. The PGA - access denied, I get that...;-)
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: jeffwarne on August 23, 2022, 11:31:08 AM
The LIV players are going to drop like bricks in the World Rankings which means they won't be playing in the Majors unless they are a past champion. Looks like it would be 2024 at the earliest for OWR Points. Enjoy your money boys!


1. The Masters: Isnt this basically an "Invitational" tourney where the hosts can invite whomever they want?


2. The US Open: Can't the LIV guys just try to qualify locally/regionally for a spot?


3. The Open: same thing. LIVers can try to qualify.


4. The PGA - access denied, I get that...;-)


as posted above, but very few "Open spots"-12 in Regional/local Q
a pity as that was the original "Open"
but some LIV players might get in via Asian Tour qualifiers
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Niall C on August 23, 2022, 12:14:45 PM
Jeff


I totally agree re OWGR and have been saying as much. I think inevitable that as much as Jay Monahan may try to influence things the other way, the owners of the majors will look to change the rules to include LIV, either that or they will largely disregard OWGR in terms of the qualification criteria for their tournaments. IMO it would be naive to think otherwise even if Martin Slumbers did a bit of sabre rattling during the Open.


Niall


   
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Niall C on August 23, 2022, 12:22:01 PM
Hearing that the PGAT may opt to cede its "non-profit" status, I am guessing that a large part of the game's future will have private equity capital behind it.


Not sure if one or two PE giants will step in with a large foot print and commensurate financial commitment, or if these smaller events will see a combo of corporate and PE capital taking over.


Sports/Media is indeed a ripe "vertical" in PE's universe and has yet not included golf events.


I believe the Taylor Made deal was one of the mid-market "Deals of the Year" when KPS Partners sold it for a 7-8x Cash on cash return. Sure, that's equipment, but it may give investors optimism as the game is on a noticable growth curve coming out of COVID.




Ian


What would these investors be buying and what would the PGA Tour be selling ? When I was younger there used to be a saying which was no show without Punch. In other words without any players there is nothing to watch. That is what LIV have realised and the PGA Tour seems to have belatedly discovered given their eagerness to change their status in an attempt to presumably get the players under some sort of contract.


It will be interesting to see whether they are too late or indeed whether the investors you talk about don't simply look to deal with the players direct similar to LIV have done.


Niall
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on August 23, 2022, 02:05:23 PM
Hearing that the PGAT may opt to cede its "non-profit" status, I am guessing that a large part of the game's future will have private equity capital behind it.


Not sure if one or two PE giants will step in with a large foot print and commensurate financial commitment, or if these smaller events will see a combo of corporate and PE capital taking over.


Sports/Media is indeed a ripe "vertical" in PE's universe and has yet not included golf events.


I believe the Taylor Made deal was one of the mid-market "Deals of the Year" when KPS Partners sold it for a 7-8x Cash on cash return. Sure, that's equipment, but it may give investors optimism as the game is on a noticable growth curve coming out of COVID.




Ian


What would these investors be buying and what would the PGA Tour be selling ? When I was younger there used to be a saying which was no show without Punch. In other words without any players there is nothing to watch. That is what LIV have realised and the PGA Tour seems to have belatedly discovered given their eagerness to change their status in an attempt to presumably get the players under some sort of contract.


It will be interesting to see whether they are too late or indeed whether the investors you talk about don't simply look to deal with the players direct similar to LIV have done.


Niall


Too much brian damage to address your questions and I am simply not well-versed in the space.
However, these guys are:


https://pitchbook.com/news/articles/sports-entertainment-deals-us-private-equity-2021






Private equity investments in the sports, media and entertainment industries caught fire in 2021 as firms looked to add sports franchise stakes, music catalogs and Hollywood-backed companies to their portfolios.[/size]As highlighted in our latest  (https://pitchbook.com/news/reports/2021-annual-us-pe-breakdown)[size=inherit]US PE Breakdown[/size][/url][/color], multiple firms focused on scoring minority stakes in sports teams last year as franchises' valuations soared.Dallas-based Arctos Sports Partners (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/investor/434623-60), which announced it had closed the largest-ever first-time US PE fund in October 2021 at $3 billion, secured minority stakes in multiple NBA teams. Those included a roughly 5% stake in the Golden State Warriors (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/61947-64) for around $275 million and a 17% stake in the Sacramento Kings (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/62235-46) at a $1.8 billion valuation.Beyond the NBA, Arctos has deployed significant capital across at least 12 other investments, including the purchase of a stake in the NHL's Tampa Bay Lightning.Dyal Capital Partners (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/fund/13605-04F) went on an NBA tear of its own, acquiring a nearly 5% stake in the Phoenix Suns (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/112318-12) at a $1.55 billion valuation and a nearly 5% stake in the Kings. In June 2021, Sixth Street Partners (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/investor/268085-89) acquired a 30% stake in the San Antonio Spurs (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/225918-73) alongside Michael Dell (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/investor/106353-28), with Sixth Street owning 20% and Dell the remaining 10%.Sports investing has also cemented itself as a global trend. Luxembourg-based CVC Capital Partners (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/investor/10157-86) purchased an expansion cricket franchise in the Indian Premier League (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/125352-82) for $736 million in October, and injected $3.2 billion into Spain's La Liga soccer league.
 Private equity firms were also in search of thriving media companies in 2021. In August, Next Generation Media Co. (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/483575-41)—Blackstone (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/investor/10014-49)'s newly formed media business—announced a $900 million buyout of Hello Sunshine (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/267449-23), the production company founded by Reese Witherspoon.Next Generation followed up that deal with a pact to buy Moonbug Entertainment (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/235934-47#overview), a children's entertainment company. That deal could reportedly value the business at $3 billion or more.Apollo Global Management (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/advisor/10020-16) closed a $5 billion deal for Yahoo's New York news division in September. Thomas H. Lee Partners (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/investor/11316-52) acquired BazaarVoice (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/51541-03)—a provider of outsourced technology, community management, analytics and syndication services—for $1.75 billion in March.Music catalog deals continued to be a hot ticket item. Since late 2020, Universal Music Group (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/43029-82) paid nearly $400 million for Bob Dylan's song catalog, and Sony Music Group (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/90092-89), with some financing from Eldridge Industries (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/investor/163509-13#overview), bought Bruce Springsteen's masters for $500 million in the largest deal to date. Shamrock Capital (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/investor/10233-28) paid $300 million for the master recordings of Taylor Swift's first six albums.In March, KKR (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/investor/10066-15) and BMG (https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/41003-47) announced a partnership to acquire music rights. In December, the investing duo acquired the music catalog of American rock band ZZ Top, in a deal that included the band's publishing catalog and their income from recorded royalties and performance royalties. This month, KKR and BMG also acquired the music catalog of singer-songwriter John Legend.



[/font]
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers... or
Post by: Steve Lang on August 23, 2022, 02:09:54 PM
 8)   Seems LIV is for DISRUPTORS...





Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Edward Glidewell on August 23, 2022, 02:12:36 PM
They don't show up for them now. One or two here and there… but we already know what the "bigger" elevated events are. I think there's a much greater chance of the Tour dying if they keep doing the same thing, not if they do something adjacent to what's being discussed.


Yes they do. Most events have at least 10-15 guys who would be in the top 60, if not more. This move would significantly weaken the strength of field of every other Tour event -- I don't see how that's even arguable.

I'm not suggesting the Tour needs to keep doing the exact same thing, but this proposal would probably lead to great financial benefits for the current top players, while causing long-term financial harm for the next generation.


Again, unless the whole model changes, the Tour stops being a non-profit organization, and starts takes in investor money. Which apparently may happen.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Edward Glidewell on August 23, 2022, 02:20:02 PM
Perhaps, but a bigger question that no one seems to have asked is, If the "top 60 players are playing in big-money, no-cut event as a tour-within-a-tour on the PGAT, how does someone who is, say 85th on the ranking move up into the top 60?


I had this question about the WGC events because they were supposed to do the same thing.  Pay the top guys more without a cut to guarantee these supposed elite fields all the fans want to see. But if they had been successful, those 60 players would have made so much more money that their positions in the WGC events would have been virtually guaranteed...perhaps for several years.


Let's assume this new version is adopted, and two or three players soon are consistently finishing at the bottom of the "elite fields" meanwhile kids like Scheffler, or Zalatoris, or Cam Young are tearing up the regular tour, but thanks to the purse disparity the money they're winning still isn't enough to move them into the top 60.


Will fans still think the "elite" events are showcasing the best players?


Personally, one of the reasons I watch the little golf I do is to see some Cinderella story either happen, or come close to happening.


This is what I was getting at. It'll end up creating a ceiling where it's difficult for any new players to break in -- I'm sure there would be some mechanism, but it would almost certainly be limited to a very small number each year.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ken Moum on August 23, 2022, 02:32:43 PM
This is what I was getting at. It'll end up creating a ceiling where it's difficult for any new players to break in -- I'm sure there would be some mechanism, but it would almost certainly be limited to a very small number each year.


Personally, I could see the current "playoff" model as creating actual drama and excitement that would really attract both fans of golf and those who want to gamble on golf.


What happened yesterday with players grinding to get into the top 30 to advance to East Lake could be replicated by simply relegating a half-dozen players from each of these 15 events.  Say there are 60 players in them, each time they have an event the bottom six get dropped back into the regular Tour events and six get promoted.


If those six finish in the top 54 (LIV) at the next event, they stay and six different players get relegated.


It would give those players just outside the top 60 a chance (or several chances) to show that they are actually among the pest players in the world.


Creating what will essentially be a closed shop is as dumb as the LIV concept.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Alex Miller on August 23, 2022, 03:38:29 PM

Quote
but this proposal would probably lead to great financial benefits for the current top players, while causing long-term financial harm for the next generation


I'm not sure this is confirmed and I've heard rumors of a couple of reasons why this is not necessarily the case.



Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ken Moum on August 23, 2022, 04:24:55 PM

Quote
but this proposal would probably lead to great financial benefits for the current top players, while causing long-term financial harm for the next generation


I'm not sure this is confirmed and I've heard rumors of a couple of reasons why this is not necessarily the case.


  • LIV drawing some players away does already open opportunity for players to get into fields who wouldn't otherwise
  • Proposals for Korn Ferry performance impacting tour status when they occur, not waiting til end of year
  • Nothing about purses going down for events not included in this series (PGA Tour is drawing from an increase from their media rights deal)


I still think the key is creating a dynamic system that has some real consequences for failing to perform for the top 60 or whatever.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Edward Glidewell on August 23, 2022, 06:25:57 PM
I still think the key is creating a dynamic system that has some real consequences for failing to perform for the top 60 or whatever.


I agree, but why would the current top players advocate for a system like that? It goes against their own personal interest. They're better off if they can essentially lock themselves in into tournaments where they will make money as long as they show up.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Niall C on August 24, 2022, 12:26:45 PM
I still think the key is creating a dynamic system that has some real consequences for failing to perform for the top 60 or whatever.


I agree, but why would the current top players advocate for a system like that? It goes against their own personal interest. They're better off if they can essentially lock themselves in into tournaments where they will make money as long as they show up.


Sorry Edward, are you referring to the LIV guys or the PGA Tour guys ?  ;D


I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been any pointed comments regarding Tiger and Rory's part in these proposals, especially after all their cant about competition and the like. Especially Rory. Is he not meant to be on the board at the PGA Tour to look after ALL the players interests ? Given him and Tiger have supposedly been cooking this up for the last two years then his comments on others being hypocritical are themselves a bit hypocritical, are they not ?


Niall
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 24, 2022, 12:36:07 PM
That’s another blow to the sports washing conspiracy theorists.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Edward Glidewell on August 24, 2022, 02:13:07 PM
Sorry Edward, are you referring to the LIV guys or the PGA Tour guys ?  ;D


Both, really.

The release today makes it seem like that's not what the PGA Tour is doing, though, at least not right away.


LIV has other issues in terms of being best for the players, mainly around getting into the majors. Even if they eventually get OWGR points, there will be less points available than PGA Tour events because the fields are weaker, so those guys are still going to slide down the rankings. Of course, if you're a player who just wants to make as much money as possible and doesn't actually care about the majors beyond the purse available, then that doesn't matter to you either.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on August 24, 2022, 02:30:36 PM
I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been any pointed comments regarding Tiger and Rory's part in these proposals, especially after all their cant about competition and the like. Especially Rory. Is he not meant to be on the board at the PGA Tour to look after ALL the players interests ? Given him and Tiger have supposedly been cooking this up for the last two years then his comments on others being hypocritical are themselves a bit hypocritical, are they not ?


Niall
Today's announcement does seem to bring into question the sentiment about LIV players only chasing the money or playing in exhibition matches. The TGL is not what I was expecting from Rory or Tiger.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Edward Glidewell on August 24, 2022, 03:20:09 PM
Today's announcement does seem to bring into question the sentiment about LIV players only chasing the money or playing in exhibition matches. The TGL is not what I was expecting from Rory or Tiger.


I wouldn't go that far, considering it's just an additional sideshow thing that's not replacing or even competing with regular tournaments.


With that said, I really doubt it goes anywhere. Who wants to watch people play simulator golf?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Pat Burke on August 24, 2022, 03:34:29 PM
I’m curious to see how the hundreds of players not in the magic 60 get sorted out.




With the recent changes in world rankings points, those 60 man, no cut events will carry enormous points that secondary events , European,  and other tour events will have.


Seems the “legacy and history” of the traditional pga tour events with full fields and cuts is going the way of limited fields and no cuts that will help top players gather more and more points.


The tour is about the players. If you’re in the right tier.


Lots of hypocrisy from all sides in this, and no surprise at all. It’s a world full of ass kissers and selfish
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on August 24, 2022, 03:41:27 PM
If Tiger and Rory have been working on this for 2 years as reported, it does tint their previous commentary as someone who was beaten to market. The whole thing feels a bit "Monday Night Raw" to me.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 24, 2022, 03:53:30 PM
Golf and honor are out of the closet.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Kalen Braley on August 24, 2022, 05:08:19 PM
I'm not sure why limited invite events is now under so much scrutiny. 

The size of the LIV fields is way down the list of grievances from what I've seen, and most of that focuses on the fact that for such small fields there is massive disparity of player skills, include those shooting huge numbers and collecting massive checks, which is not seen in other reputable fields for the PGATour, DP, Korn Ferry, etc..

Even the PGA Tour has been doing limited field stuff for decades like Jack and Arnie's events, in addition to the Majors with their various limiting qualifying criteria.

Golf like every other sport has always been about exceeding at one level to pass thru a gate to the next and I don't see why that should arbitrarily end.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: JohnVDB on August 24, 2022, 05:27:39 PM
Honest question - do they give out OWGR points for the Tour Championship this week?
Yes, but the players qualified to get there. They use the "real" leaderboard, which is a bit of a weird thing, since if you have a two-shot lead in the real tournament you would play the 18th hole differently than if you were trailing by one in the OWGR shadow leaderboard.
Will Zal had to drop out of the TC.  He comes in 30th and gets $500k.  Does he get OWGR points for coming in 30th, despite not playing?


He didn’t get any for last week so he won’t get any this week either.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: David Kelly on August 24, 2022, 06:08:35 PM

The size of the LIV fields is way down the list of grievances from what I've seen...
That's not what is being addressed by this move. What's being addressed is the main issue that led to LIV in the first place, which is that the stars - both the ones that went to LIV and the ones that stayed - want a bigger cut of the pie. It's pretty simple. 

The Gary McCord 125-exempt tour worked for the PGA for a long time but eventually the more successful players felt that they are losing $$$ in order to support the bottom feeders of the tour who don't drive ratings or attendance.  Had the leadership of the PGA recognized this issue as being a serious one earlier, they might have been able to head off the LIV and saved themselves a lot of grief.  I don't know if there was anyone of sufficient clout and persuasiveness that could have convinced the players that while they may be riding high right now, it wouldn't take much for them to be residing at the bottom of the exempt list in short order and that the system should be maintained but the grievences should have been taken seriously.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on August 24, 2022, 06:18:31 PM

The size of the LIV fields is way down the list of grievances from what I've seen...
That's not what is being addressed by this move. What's being addressed is the main issue that led to LIV in the first place, which is that the stars - both the ones that went to LIV and the ones that stayed - want a bigger cut of the pie. It's pretty simple. 

The Gary McCord 125-exempt tour worked for the PGA for a long time but eventually the more successful players felt that they are losing $$$ in order to support the bottom feeders of the tour who don't drive ratings or attendance.  Had the leadership of the PGA recognized this issue as being a serious one earlier, they might have been able to head off the LIV and saved themselves a lot of grief.  I don't know if there was anyone of sufficient clout and persuasiveness that could have convinced the players that while they may be riding high right now, it wouldn't take much for them to be residing at the bottom of the exempt list in short order and that the system should be maintained but the grievences should have been taken seriously.


I'm sure someone will enlighten me if I'm wrong but..


Surely there has always been player representation on the PGA board and I don't recall discussion of these grievances?
What happened was the 'malcontents' haven't previously driven this issue, but out side agencies' have stirred the pot and picked the right people to protest?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on August 24, 2022, 06:20:32 PM
I wonder how these new elevated events will affect some longstanding tour events.  Close to home for me is the Canadian Open.  Will it be one of the new elevated events?  If so, will they still have exemptions for additional Canadians to get into the field?  If it isn't then it is going to have a very crappy field as the non-elevated events will look like alternate field events held the week of the British Open, etc.  And what about the Scottish Open?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Kalen Braley on August 24, 2022, 08:45:32 PM

The size of the LIV fields is way down the list of grievances from what I've seen...
That's not what is being addressed by this move. What's being addressed is the main issue that led to LIV in the first place, which is that the stars - both the ones that went to LIV and the ones that stayed - want a bigger cut of the pie. It's pretty simple. 



David,

I agree, my last comment was in context to all the chatter going on in this thread around field size which is basically a non-starter.

That being said, If the information in this article is accurate, it looks like they are making a lot of good moves in addition to having higher pay outs for star players:

"In its ongoing battle with LIV Golf for the best players in the world, the PGA Tour committed another $146 million to its players in an attempt to keep them."

"Besides doubling the number of players who will benefit (10 to 20) and the amount of money that will be distributed ($50 million to $100 million), the PGA Tour is adjusting the formula for how players will be measured on their impact on the tour"

"The PGA Tour also is launching an Earnings Assurance Program for fully exempt members, which guarantees a league-minimum salary of $500,000 per player. Players receiving that money must participate in 15 events. Rookies and returning members will receive the money at the start of the season."

"For non-exempt members, those who were ranked 126th to 150th in the FedEx Cup points standings and below, they'll receive $5,000 for every missed cut. The tour will also subsidize travel and tournament-related expenses to those players."

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34453891/what-know-know-pga-tour-upcoming-changes (https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34453891/what-know-know-pga-tour-upcoming-changes)
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on August 24, 2022, 08:58:17 PM
So UBI has come to the world of pro golf.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: cary lichtenstein on August 24, 2022, 09:09:55 PM
So it all started by some snarky comments by Phil Mickelson, who hit the nail on its head by the slow but now obvious action to save the PGA from the LIV
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 24, 2022, 10:00:31 PM
So it all started by some snarky comments by Phil Mickelson, who hit the nail on its head by the slow but now obvious action to save the PGA from the LIV


It started to sell a book.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 24, 2022, 10:15:39 PM
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/evSDVwXENrE
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Steve Lang on August 25, 2022, 08:48:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/evSDVwXENrE (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/evSDVwXENrE)


WOW BREAKING NEWS...  PGA Tour puts its independent contractors under contract, disrupts non-profit cash flows and redefines merit system around USA pro golf...  can't wait for all the clickbait to come,,


NOT
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 25, 2022, 08:54:22 AM
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/evSDVwXENrE (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/evSDVwXENrE)




WOW BREAKING NEWS...  PGA Tour puts its independent contractors under contract, disrupts non-profit cash flows and redefines merit system around USA pro golf...  can't wait for all the clickbait to come,,


NOT


This dude can’t wipe the smile from his face.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: cary lichtenstein on August 26, 2022, 07:47:10 PM
At the end of the day, this is all about the best players making a whole lot more money, nothing else
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim Leahy on August 27, 2022, 04:17:06 AM
Everything but the team events sounds fine. President's Cup and Ryder Cup are all the team events I need. Does the LIV have a national TV carrier yet? :o
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Cliff Hamm on August 27, 2022, 01:51:23 PM
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tiger-woods-rory-mcilroy-supeona-larry-klayman-civil-lawsuit-pga-tour-dp-world?itm_source=parsely-api (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tiger-woods-rory-mcilroy-supeona-larry-klayman-civil-lawsuit-pga-tour-dp-world?itm_source=parsely-api)
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: David Cronan on August 27, 2022, 02:38:06 PM
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tiger-woods-rory-mcilroy-supeona-larry-klayman-civil-lawsuit-pga-tour-dp-world?itm_source=parsely-api (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tiger-woods-rory-mcilroy-supeona-larry-klayman-civil-lawsuit-pga-tour-dp-world?itm_source=parsely-api)


Larry Klayman, huh?


I guess Keyrock The Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer was too busy to take Reed's case.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Cliff Hamm on August 27, 2022, 05:34:18 PM
https://www.golfchannel.com/news/sources-confirm-multiple-international-presidents-cup-team-members-among-those-headed-liv-golf (https://www.golfchannel.com/news/sources-confirm-multiple-international-presidents-cup-team-members-among-those-headed-liv-golf)
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: JohnVDB on August 27, 2022, 06:50:35 PM
https://www.golfchannel.com/news/sources-confirm-multiple-international-presidents-cup-team-members-among-those-headed-liv-golf (https://www.golfchannel.com/news/sources-confirm-multiple-international-presidents-cup-team-members-among-those-headed-liv-golf)


I remember the VP of HR at the startup I was a part of saying “They aren’t here until they are here.”  We poached a guy who started with us the day he was supposed to start at another company,


So, until they make the announcement I’m not paying any attention to this.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 27, 2022, 11:03:54 PM
Harold Varner III would be a shocker. I thought he was very close to Tiger
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: cary lichtenstein on August 28, 2022, 11:48:49 PM
I don't think we will get anything on TV like we saw today with the Fedex Cup from LIV.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jim_Coleman on August 29, 2022, 10:10:56 AM
   I really hope that if/when the Saudis fold their tent, their players aren’t just allowed back.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 29, 2022, 10:41:09 AM
   I really hope that if/when the Saudis fold their tent, their players aren’t just allowed back.


It's entertainment. I miss the villains. Caring who gets $12 million more than the other dude doesn't cut it. The coverage was insulting acting like it does.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 29, 2022, 10:52:25 AM
I find it interesting that Phil has crawled under a rock
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 29, 2022, 10:57:12 AM
I find it interesting that Phil has crawled under a rock


The fact that all his peers just got a raise speaks for itself.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jim_Coleman on August 29, 2022, 11:10:24 AM
John: I suppose you’re right. If it took sports washing to get these guys paid what they apparently are worth, then all the players are better off. Looking at it from that perspective, the Saudis have been played like a fiddle, unless it turns out this is really worth the price they are paying. Hard to believe.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 29, 2022, 11:23:33 AM
I can not think of another example of reckless unintended heroism where both sides came out winners.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 29, 2022, 11:43:58 AM
I find it interesting that Phil has crawled under a rock


The fact that all his peers just got a raise speaks for itself.


Perhaps if Phil had just gone to the top tier players and got the PGA tour moving in this direction LIV wouldn’t exist. Except for his golf game was in severe decline and he probably wouldn’t have gotten any benefit.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 30, 2022, 10:10:12 AM
The first player I'm going to miss watching has officially left. Cam Smith
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim Martin on August 30, 2022, 11:30:56 AM
I find it interesting that Phil has crawled under a rock


The fact that all his peers just got a raise speaks for itself.


Perhaps if Phil had just gone to the top tier players and got the PGA tour moving in this direction LIV wouldn’t exist. Except for his golf game was in severe decline and he probably wouldn’t have gotten any benefit.


Rob-Mickelson is 52 years old so regardless of whether he was involved with LIV or not the halcyon days of his PGA Tour career were waning. I would think that if he was allowed to play(and wanted to) and he sharpened up his game he could run the table on the Champions Tour.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: cary lichtenstein on August 30, 2022, 03:39:45 PM
How's this, everyone came out a winner on this whole thing. Phil was right on and he's been trashed. How about some fore give ness? As far as LIV is concerned, even when they get TV rights, whose going to watch a bunch of has beens, playing a shotgun finish that is almost impossible to cover, finishing on Saturday or even if it finishes on Sunday, the rating will be terribly weak.


Imagine the leaders on 6 different holes, are they going to divide the screen into 6 parts?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 30, 2022, 04:01:19 PM
They've done well with three events in the books. How about the course this week? I just read where Shack called it mediocre.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Steve Lang on August 30, 2022, 04:48:27 PM
 8)  pretty much every amateur can relate to a one round toonamint hosted at their club or a fav public course, sponsored by a group/charity/business/prof.society with lunch or a keg/snacks and the touring beverage carts, ... the shot-gun start is the de rigueur expectation unless something special is occurring, like the member-guest or club championship, ...


so that is certainly not a turn-off to the fan masses by any means and if anything, more relatable, after all, isn't the party Saturday night?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on August 30, 2022, 05:47:33 PM
How's this, everyone came out a winner on this whole thing. Phil was right on and he's been trashed.
Phil was wrong about far more than he got right (what exactly did he get right, and why didn't he work to change things the way Tiger, Rory, etc. did?), and the LIV golf is even more restrictive than the PGA Tour. And just because the Saudi Investment fund has enough money to force the PGA Tour to make some changes doesn't mean "Phil was right." About what? Phil wanted the PGA Tour to give up media rights. Did that change? He was wrong about the amount of money they have on-hand, wrong about the percentage of revenue that they pay to their players, etc.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Kalen Braley on August 30, 2022, 07:47:08 PM
I'm with Erik on this one.

Exactly nothing has changed.  The only thing we've learned is enough top golfers are willing to take blood money to have an impact on the PGATour...
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on August 30, 2022, 09:52:00 PM
Phil was right in that the tour was keeping a huge cash reserve for themselves and that they could come up with some new ideas to maximize revenue, especially for the top players, but at the detriment of the guys outside of the top 50 or so.
When you think about it - why shouldn't the players get the majority of the say in how the tour is run?  But they only have a minority position on the policy board - there are 5 independents, 4 players and one from the PGA of America.   Is that the proper governance model?

Shipnuck goes through it here: https://firepitcollective.com/phil-was-right-phil-mickelson/
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on August 30, 2022, 10:00:34 PM
Phil was right in that the tour was keeping a huge cash reserve for themselves
No. The Tour just signed the new media deal, so there was always going to be an influx of cash NOW, but not before now. The new media/TV rights deal is just starting to pay out.

When you think about it - why shouldn't the players get the majority of the say in how the tour is run?  But they only have a minority position on the policy board - there are 5 independents, 4 players and one from the PGA of America.
It's going to 5 and 5.

Shipnuck's reporting recently has been horrible. His reporting of the meeting - even in the article you wrote he called it an "uprising" when Tiger and Rory have been working with and consulting with and acting on behalf of Jay the entire time - was massively undercut by NLU's reporting, which was much closer to the what actually transpired there.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 30, 2022, 10:46:49 PM
Phil was right in that the tour was keeping a huge cash reserve for themselves and that they could come up with some new ideas to maximize revenue, especially for the top players, but at the detriment of the guys outside of the top 50 or so.
When you think about it - why shouldn't the players get the majority of the say in how the tour is run?  But they only have a minority position on the policy board - there are 5 independents, 4 players and one from the PGA of America.   Is that the proper governance model?

Shipnuck goes through it here: https://firepitcollective.com/phil-was-right-phil-mickelson/ (https://firepitcollective.com/phil-was-right-phil-mickelson/)


Keeping huge cash reserves for themselves? Who do you mean by themselves? The players are the tour. Who appoints the 5 independents?


Actually it’s going to 5 players
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 30, 2022, 10:52:56 PM
Let's do Tripp Davis a favor and watch this week. Nice opportunity to see an interesting course.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Craig Sweet on August 30, 2022, 11:22:20 PM
More dishonesty from the defectors.  Smith says it means more time with his family in Australia.  14 Fifty Hole Tour entertainment events or 15 PGA Tour competitive events...


The Fifty Four Hole Tour is going to become a black hole...We will never hear from Cam Smith again.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on August 30, 2022, 11:38:53 PM
Phil was right in that the tour was keeping a huge cash reserve for themselves and that they could come up with some new ideas to maximize revenue, especially for the top players, but at the detriment of the guys outside of the top 50 or so.
When you think about it - why shouldn't the players get the majority of the say in how the tour is run?  But they only have a minority position on the policy board - there are 5 independents, 4 players and one from the PGA of America.   Is that the proper governance model?

Shipnuck goes through it here: https://firepitcollective.com/phil-was-right-phil-mickelson/ (https://firepitcollective.com/phil-was-right-phil-mickelson/)


Keeping huge cash reserves for themselves? Who do you mean by themselves? The players are the tour. Who appoints the 5 independents?


Actually it’s going to 5 players
I am not sure who appoints the independents but I don't think that it is the players.  Probably the governance committee of the board, heavily influenced by Jay Monahan.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim Leahy on August 31, 2022, 12:44:25 AM
Won't miss a single guy who left this week and especially Smith and his ugly arse mullet. Is the Presidents Cup dead? Did LIV sabotage the PCup on purpose? They could have waited another month right? Cam Smith is a coward and a liar. :P
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim Leahy on August 31, 2022, 12:48:01 AM
Let's do Tripp Davis a favor and watch this week. Nice opportunity to see an interesting course.
I checked my TV listings and can't find the LIV anywhere? LOL
JK can you record it for me? ::)
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Brian_Ewen on August 31, 2022, 01:21:05 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 31, 2022, 08:46:07 AM
Won't miss a single guy who left this week and especially Smith and his ugly arse mullet. Is the Presidents Cup dead? Did LIV sabotage the PCup on purpose? They could have waited another month right? Cam Smith is a coward and a liar. :P


I like Cam Smith. He's only guy I'm going to miss. Don't see him as a liar or a coward. He admitted the money was too good to pass up.


I agree about the Pres Cup. They could have waited.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on August 31, 2022, 08:48:00 AM
Phil was right in that the tour was keeping a huge cash reserve for themselves and that they could come up with some new ideas to maximize revenue, especially for the top players, but at the detriment of the guys outside of the top 50 or so.
When you think about it - why shouldn't the players get the majority of the say in how the tour is run?  But they only have a minority position on the policy board - there are 5 independents, 4 players and one from the PGA of America.   Is that the proper governance model?

Shipnuck goes through it here: https://firepitcollective.com/phil-was-right-phil-mickelson/ (https://firepitcollective.com/phil-was-right-phil-mickelson/)


Keeping huge cash reserves for themselves? Who do you mean by themselves? The players are the tour. Who appoints the 5 independents?


Actually it’s going to 5 players
I am not sure who appoints the independents but I don't think that it is the players.  Probably the governance committee of the board, heavily influenced by Jay Monahan.


I would assume the players can fire Monahan anytime they want. He works for them. The LPGA fired their head a few years ago or asked her to resign.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on August 31, 2022, 09:18:06 AM
Won't miss a single guy who left this week and especially Smith and his ugly arse mullet. Is the Presidents Cup dead? Did LIV sabotage the PCup on purpose? They could have waited another month right? Cam Smith is a coward and a liar. :P
I think they have said they have to play four events to be eligible for the big team competition at the end or something. So that's why they did it now and not after the Presidents Cup, I think.

You won't "miss" Cam Smith. If he can remain competitive (in his own words he said he's been lazy in the past and that he actually put in work the last year or two), you'll (probably) see him in majors for at least five more years.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Pete_Pittock on August 31, 2022, 12:38:04 PM
Can't wait to see how they handle the late October event in south Florida.


How interesting would a four team event grudge match every two or four years- Tour/DP Tour/ROW/LIV
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 01, 2022, 09:21:41 AM
Gary Player just strapped in as coxswain on the LIV hate canoe. Must make you moral paddle ducks proud.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Anthony Butler on September 01, 2022, 09:34:24 AM
Bill Coore's wife is Jewish. Can't imagine he's too thrilled to see his work being used by a genocidal Muslim regime this week..
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Kalen Braley on September 01, 2022, 11:34:50 AM
With how much flak the PGA Tour has gotten for suspending its players, (including the lawsuit) interesting to see LIV has already gotten rid of several players in its 1st season after only a handful of events.

And people wonder why so many players remain loyal to the PGATour.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/all-four-japanese-players-out-of-liv-golf-boston-field
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Michael Moore on September 01, 2022, 01:09:40 PM
Let's do Tripp Davis a favor

Bill Coore's wife is Jewish. Can't imagine he's too thrilled to see his work being used by a genocidal Muslim regime this week..

Please, it's a Tom Fazio course. More later, after listening to the Australian contingent I am finally understanding how all of this is just a small indicator of our decadent empire losing its grip on the world.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 01, 2022, 01:16:50 PM
Let's do Tripp Davis a favor

Bill Coore's wife is Jewish. Can't imagine he's too thrilled to see his work being used by a genocidal Muslim regime this week..

Please, it's a Tom Fazio course. More later, after listening to the Australian contingent I am finally understanding how all of this is just a small indicator of our decadent empire losing its grip on the world.


https://www.theinternational.com/golf?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=bostongolfclub (https://www.theinternational.com/golf?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=bostongolfclub)


Thanks for bringing it back to golf. Nice Tripp Davis video on his restoration.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jim Hoak on September 01, 2022, 02:29:25 PM
Wayne Kozun, yes, there are 5 independent members of the Board and only 4 players.  But I am told by people on the Board, that the Board always defers to the players on any issue that affects them.  The independents' role is to provide business advice and consul only, and decisions are not made on a split-vote basis.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim Martin on September 01, 2022, 02:59:36 PM
How interesting would a four team event grudge match every two or four years- Tour/DP Tour/ROW/LIV


Pete-I would rather watch the two tours square off than the Presidents Cup. I’ve never found anything compelling about it as it’s always been a junior varsity version of the Ryder Cup. We have all heard the grumbling from players on both sides when they have to travel for the event and I haven’t had anyone tell me they were going to pass on their regular Sunday game so that they could watch the final round of the Presidents Cup.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on September 01, 2022, 08:07:06 PM
Wayne Kozun, yes, there are 5 independent members of the Board and only 4 players.  But I am told by people on the Board, that the Board always defers to the players on any issue that affects them.  The independents' role is to provide business advice and consul only, and decisions are not made on a split-vote basis.
I've heard that too, and again, it's going to 5 and 5 in January (with the next batch).
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim_Cronin on September 02, 2022, 01:35:04 AM
Make of this what you will, but someone on Twitter posted the tentative 2023 LIV schedule. In summary, 9 U.S. tournaments out of 14, plus one in Canada or Mexico. Dates and places:


Feb 3-5 Florida (vs. Pebble Beach)
Feb 24-26 California (vs. Honda)
Mar 17-19 Tucson / Dove Mountain (vs. Valspar)
Apr 14-16 Australia (vs. Heritage, long trip week after Masters)
Apr 28-30 Singapore (vs. Mexico Open)
May 12-14 Washington (vs. Nelson leading into PGA)
June 23-25 Philadelphia / Trump Philly likely (vs. Travelers week after US Open)
June 30-July 2 London / Centurion (vs. Rocket Mortgage)
July 14-16 Spain (vs. Scottish Open leading into British)
Aug 4-6 New Jersey / Bedminster (vs. Wyndham)
Aug 18-20 West Virginia / Greenbrier (vs. BMW)
Sept 1-3 Chicago / Rich Harvest
Sept 15-17 Toronto or Mexico
Sept 29-Oct 1 Florida / Doral Team Championship
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on September 02, 2022, 07:23:43 AM
Make of this what you will, but someone on Twitter posted the tentative 2023 LIV schedule. In summary, 9 U.S. tournaments out of 14, plus one in Canada or Mexico. Dates and places:
Not exactly what you'd picture from a group touting how "world-wide" they are.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Daryl David on September 02, 2022, 11:38:43 AM
Make of this what you will, but someone on Twitter posted the tentative 2023 LIV schedule. In summary, 9 U.S. tournaments out of 14, plus one in Canada or Mexico. Dates and places:
Not exactly what you'd picture from a group touting how "world-wide" they are.


36% of events outside the US. At what percentage would you consider it “world-wide”?  45%, 65%, 100%?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 02, 2022, 11:52:37 AM
Are you starting to understand the entertainment value of the shotgun start?  No tee time anxiety from missing your idols. I’m traveling today and can’t wait to watch on my phone.

Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Pete_Pittock on September 02, 2022, 11:53:54 AM
Make of this what you will, but someone on Twitter posted the tentative 2023 LIV schedule. In summary, 9 U.S. tournaments out of 14, plus one in Canada or Mexico. Dates and places:


Feb 3-5 Florida (vs. Pebble Beach)
Feb 24-26 California (vs. Honda)


My guess is that there two will be at Trump properties. Wonder what the rental fees are?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jim Hoak on September 02, 2022, 11:57:09 AM
As we get more golfers declaring for the LIV Tour, I am beginning to see a distinct US vs. non-US tilt.  International players who have settled in the US with the PGA Tour being their principal site seem more likely to move to LIV, although obviously that doesn't explain all the choices.  Both Cam Smith and Lahari have given a desire to spend more time in their home country as a reason to move to LIV.  I'm wondering if the dream of the PGA Tour is more of an USA thing than it is worldwide?
Obviously, guaranteed money is still the key--but home country seems to have some pull as well.  I wonder if non-US boys don't grow up dreaming of playing the PGA Tour the way they do here?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 02, 2022, 12:34:54 PM
Obviously, guaranteed money is still the key--but home country seems to have some pull as well.  I wonder if non-US boys don't grow up dreaming of playing the PGA Tour the way they do here?


This has been true for as long as I've understood the pro tour.  The list of overseas players who eschewed the PGA Tour or battled them over rules of how many events one had to play includes Peter Thomson, Gary Player, Seve Ballesteros, and Greg Norman, but many of the not-so-famous names have resented the idea that the PGA Tour was the be-all, end-all of golf.


And, really, do we think it is?  The Tour is trying hard to conflate the four majors with the Tour, and they may get support in their fight from the majors, but that's not the same thing.  As for other events, how many of us care [or even remember] who won the Heritage [excuse me, RBC] or Colonial or Bay Hill this year?  Only Americans believe that any of those events are more important than Wentworth [now owned by a Chinese billionaire  ::) ] or the Australian Open [if they still have one of those].


The main draw of the PGA TOUR has never been the "competition" -- the main draw has been that it pays better, and nobody wanted to be excluded from that.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 02, 2022, 12:48:45 PM
Is The International a Tripp Davis or Fazio course?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on September 02, 2022, 02:21:27 PM
The main draw of the PGA TOUR has never been the "competition" -- the main draw has been that it pays better, and nobody wanted to be excluded from that.
It is interesting that tennis has a majority of its major tournaments outside of the US, and not just Grand Slam tournaments.  But tennis is more global than golf, so there is likely more money to be held by having a truly global tour as there are enough fans to pay money to attend and provide media revenue.  And you also have a global player base that likely prefers playing in different countries.
In golf the interest in the game and the source of revenue is primarily from the US, plus, at least in Men's golf, the vast majority of the top players are American.  But the Women's game is more global - there are six different countries in the top six ranked golfers right now.  And you see that reflected in the paying schedule as the LPGA has more international events, including majors - the LPGA only had one event in the US during July and August.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Cliff Hamm on September 02, 2022, 02:34:37 PM
Watched five minutes of Liv golf for the first time. It was awful. Every 15 seconds or so it was just another golf shot. No set up, no idea what club they are hitting, no idea what they need to do…Boring
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 02, 2022, 02:51:18 PM
Isn’t it great to see a real time battle for the lead? Shotgun rocks!!!
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jim_Coleman on September 02, 2022, 03:28:29 PM
   The International was open to the public when I was a kid. It was called Runaway Brook and it’s claim to fame was that was was the first course over 8,000 yards. I remember one green that was so big that I could not reach the back of the green from the front of the green with a putter.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on September 02, 2022, 04:00:44 PM
36% of events outside the US. At what percentage would you consider it “world-wide”?  45%, 65%, 100%?
More than barely 1/3 for sure. 11/14 are in North America.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 02, 2022, 04:05:18 PM
How can you hate on this leaderboard?


https://www.livgolf.com/ (https://www.livgolf.com/)
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 02, 2022, 04:34:09 PM
36% of events outside the US. At what percentage would you consider it “world-wide”?  45%, 65%, 100%?
More than barely 1/3 for sure. 11/14 are in North America.


LIV has the same problem as the PGA Tour in that regard.  If they have more international events, it won't be as attractive to the American players.  If the majority of events are in the USA, it won't be as attractive to overseas players.  The PGA Tour has tried to be more international and to promote events in China and South Korea and Japan, but a lot of the players don't want to go there, especially late in the year.  I can relate . . .
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on September 02, 2022, 05:05:29 PM
LIV has the same problem as the PGA Tour in that regard.  If they have more international events, it won't be as attractive to the American players.  If the majority of events are in the USA, it won't be as attractive to overseas players.  The PGA Tour has tried to be more international and to promote events in China and South Korea and Japan, but a lot of the players don't want to go there, especially late in the year.  I can relate . . .
For sure.

They can talk all they want about "growing the game" and about how they're going to be a true world-wide tour, but they know where the audience is.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jeff Evagues on September 02, 2022, 06:39:50 PM
How is having a "tournament" in Boston "growing the game"? The US Open was there 3 months ago.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ken Moum on September 02, 2022, 06:56:37 PM
Apparently someone has realized that "Grow the Game," and "Play less and more family time," wasn't resonating with the public so the talking ponts this week from Lahiri, Watson and Smith, among others, is "I LOVE being part of a team, this is the future of professional golf."


And by the way, now that they are selling team merch for fans, what team is this logo on the left for?  Farting a-holes?


(https://golfweek.usatoday.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/87/2022/09/tempImagecmgI7K.jpg?resize=1000,600)
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: JohnVDB on September 02, 2022, 07:29:46 PM
Phil was right in that the tour was keeping a huge cash reserve for themselves and that they could come up with some new ideas to maximize revenue, especially for the top players, but at the detriment of the guys outside of the top 50 or so.
When you think about it - why shouldn't the players get the majority of the say in how the tour is run?  But they only have a minority position on the policy board - there are 5 independents, 4 players and one from the PGA of America.   Is that the proper governance model?

Shipnuck goes through it here: https://firepitcollective.com/phil-was-right-phil-mickelson/ (https://firepitcollective.com/phil-was-right-phil-mickelson/)


Keeping huge cash reserves for themselves? Who do you mean by themselves? The players are the tour. Who appoints the 5 independents?


Actually it’s going to 5 players


Did Phil ever serve or even run for the advisory board?  Or did he just bitch from the outside rather than actually trying to change things?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on September 02, 2022, 08:10:00 PM
How can you hate on this leaderboard?


https://www.livgolf.com/ (https://www.livgolf.com/)


Can’t hate it John when I don’t care to look at it


I just looked. I’m pretty sure I can shoot better than 87……….
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on September 02, 2022, 09:33:55 PM
Did Phil ever serve or even run for the advisory board?  Or did he just bitch from the outside rather than actually trying to change things?
B.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim Leahy on September 03, 2022, 02:15:37 AM
The Golf Channel had an interesting commercial on last night from the 9-11 Survivors requesting people call the International Golf Club to protest the LIV and gave out the phone # of the course. Wonder if the commercial will run through the Holiday weekend. Bet the commercial will have more viewers than the LIV. :o



Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on September 03, 2022, 07:07:13 PM
This is the shit that gets me. Harold Varner and Bubba Watsons wives should comment on this. This woman appealed her sentence so they gave her a longer one.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/17/saudi-salma-shehab-activist/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/17/saudi-salma-shehab-activist/)


I heard Faxon on Sirius this week. He was in the room when Norman proposed his world tour idea. Arnie and Jack were there also. Fax said Arnie stood up and said years earlier he and Jack talked about doing the same thing. Said the two of them would have made a boatload of money…….BUT they decided that they weren’t bigger than the game and they didn’t do it. After making his statement Arnie turned and walked out the door. Mic drop. It was on Friday mornings with Fax.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: cary lichtenstein on September 04, 2022, 08:07:06 PM
I watched the last 4 hours of LIV today, tough to follow as leaders were on different holes. Not a good format for tv.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Pete_Pittock on September 05, 2022, 01:38:24 AM
If there is a playoff do they still use a shotgun start?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Mark Chaplin on September 05, 2022, 09:44:32 AM
Watched five minutes of Liv golf for the first time. It was awful. Every 15 seconds or so it was just another golf shot. No set up, no idea what club they are hitting, no idea what they need to do…Boring


Agreed I much prefer watching tee shots, then 5 minutes of adverts, watch the second shots followed by more adverts before the putting. That’s obviously a good day rather than putting, ads, putting on the PGA tour.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on September 05, 2022, 06:46:35 PM
So what does LIV hope to achieve in the next year or two?  They have now attracted a number of highly ranked golfers and have certainly garnered a lot of publicity.  Not no one takes them seriously as a golfing event and that doesn't seem to be changing.  If that continues then what are the Saudis actually gaining from all of the money that they spent?  Especially since it appears that there will only be one tournament in Saudi Arabia, which is really no different than the last few years when there was a Euro Tour event in Saudi that attracted a decent field.
So what have they got for all of the money that they spent? 
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jim Hoak on September 05, 2022, 08:05:36 PM
I'm waiting for a few very important things to happen--the decision on World Ranking Points, what actions any majors take, any TV contract for LIV events, etc.  But one maybe less-important thing that may happen will also be very interesting--what happens when the first LIV player decides it isn't what he wanted and applies for reinstatement on the European or the US Tour.  May not happen but will be interesting if it does.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ken Moum on September 05, 2022, 08:30:06 PM
Jim, at some point you'd think players booted for "bigger" names might have second thoughts.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on September 05, 2022, 08:38:19 PM
Andy Ogletree is hoping to get onto the KF tour, but he is a bit of a unique case. Listen to the Fire Pit podcast with him.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: William_G on September 06, 2022, 12:12:09 AM
money money money
the players are not bigger than the courses
the players are not bigger than the competition
multi-millionaire pro golfers whining is so boring and unattractive
honesty is more important than the crime you committed against the game of golf
please
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 06, 2022, 12:18:29 AM
I was happy and surprised to see the 4 Aces three peat. Pat Perez is making history.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Buck Wolter on September 06, 2022, 11:13:49 AM
I was happy and surprised to see the 4 Aces three peat. Pat Perez is making history.


Pat's obviously a Glue Guy for the 4 Aces -- more important than the raw score he posts.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Anthony Butler on September 06, 2022, 05:06:30 PM
Let's do Tripp Davis a favor

Bill Coore's wife is Jewish. Can't imagine he's too thrilled to see his work being used by a genocidal Muslim regime this week..

Please, it's a Tom Fazio course. More later, after listening to the Australian contingent I am finally understanding how all of this is just a small indicator of our decadent empire losing its grip on the world.

Living about 20 min drive from the Course, I can tell you they're promoting the heck out of the C&C work in the local membership drive marketing.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim_Cronin on September 08, 2022, 03:59:43 PM
Play at the BMW PGA at Wentworth was suspended upon the death of the Queen. There will be no play Friday. The rest is undetermined. It's possible they finish the first round on Saturday and then play two more rounds to finish on Sunday. In other words, 54 holes.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim Leahy on September 08, 2022, 08:36:28 PM
Play at the BMW PGA at Wentworth was suspended upon the death of the Queen. There will be no play Friday. The rest is undetermined. It's possible they finish the first round on Saturday and then play two more rounds to finish on Sunday. In other words, 54 holes.
Did the Saudi's or Greg Norman kill the Queen to shorten the tournament? HMMM. ::)
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: JMEvensky on September 09, 2022, 05:02:37 AM

Did the Saudi's or Greg Norman kill the Queen to shorten the tournament? HMMM. ::)





"It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt."-- Mark Twain
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim_Cronin on September 09, 2022, 11:35:22 AM
And 54 holes it shall be. With a cut.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Pete_Pittock on September 11, 2022, 01:49:25 PM
Royal Sydney turned down Greg Norman and the LIV.
Should Super Bowl LIV (KC v SF) join the fray against these exhibitionists?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Anthony Butler on September 12, 2022, 03:23:37 PM
Royal Sydney turned down Greg Norman and the LIV.
Should Super Bowl LIV (KC v SF) join the fray against these exhibitionists?
In the wake of this announcement, I am trying to get some clarity from NSWGC on same matter. Unfortunately current Club President appears to have a man-crush on Great White Fish Finger... hopefully common sense and decency will prevail.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 12, 2022, 04:36:11 PM
Why not welcome the reigning Open Champion back to his home country?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Anthony Butler on September 12, 2022, 05:27:12 PM
Why not welcome the reigning Open Champion back to his home country?
I'm sure some hard up club will fall victim to Saudi Govt. Employee Norman's blandishments.... On the topic of Open Champion Smith, I believe one of his reasons (other than money) for signing with LIV was so he could spend more time back in Australia "watching footy with his mates." The Rugby League and Aussie Rules playoffs are in full swing right now, yet Smith will be reporting for work in Chicago this week.

Maybe next year when the Broncos actually make the playoffs.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim Leahy on September 12, 2022, 09:42:15 PM
Appropriate a LIV sellout player didn't win a tournament on 9-11. Maybe a hurricane will hit Florida for the LIV tournament scheduled for comrade Trumpsky's course in October. :o
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jim_Coleman on September 12, 2022, 10:49:31 PM

   This is funny, especially the DJ character.

https https://youtu.be/jibobfbkNCM://youtu.be/jibobfbkNCM (https://youtu.be/jibobfbkNCM)


Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on September 13, 2022, 12:55:40 PM
Appropriate a LIV sellout player didn't win a tournament on 9-11. Maybe a hurricane will hit Florida for the LIV tournament scheduled for comrade Trumpsky's course in October. :o


I’m going to be about 2 hours from Miami when the tournament is played but I’m afraid of what I might say and don’t want to end up on TMZ. I don’t think they care what anyone thinks anyway. It’s all about the money.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on September 13, 2022, 02:36:44 PM
The "LIV Show" comes to Chicago this weekend at (controversial) Rich Harvest Farms.


Bunch of golf buddies were on a text exchange this week determining interest to go out there and check it out.


We all live in the city or north burbs and the venue is perhaps 50+ miles SW of us.


12 guys on the text chain and not one had any interest in going. Then again, we are all in the "dying demographic" that watches the PGA Tour.


So, I asked my 26 yo son if he wanted to go.


Nope.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Jim Hoak on September 13, 2022, 03:04:07 PM
No surprise, I guess, Ian!
The has-been and outcast nature of the field, the lack of any real television contact, the exhibition-tenor of the format, the meaningless nature of any one of the events, and the political uproar over the LIV tour makes everyone of its events a real sleeper!
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Kalen Braley on September 15, 2022, 12:52:54 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/apple-and-amazon-join-growing-list-of-companies-to-pass-on-liv-golf-media-rights/ar-AA11Shih?cvid=841e4135b35741dc9709a8c666f5aaed (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/apple-and-amazon-join-growing-list-of-companies-to-pass-on-liv-golf-media-rights/ar-AA11Shih?cvid=841e4135b35741dc9709a8c666f5aaed)

"Amazon and Apple — two of the biggest and newest players in the sports streaming market — both declined to carry LIV on their platforms, according to The Wall Street Journal. (https://www.wsj.com/articles/liv-golf-amazon-apple-media-rights-11663252695) Other companies like ESPN, CBS, NBC and Fox have also already refused to air the Saudi-backed league, according to the Journal."
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ken Moum on September 15, 2022, 08:38:20 PM
FWIW I just saw that LIV attracted Cam Smith and Leishman by offering part ownership.


Might explain Poulter's excuse for wearing the logos last week.


But a share of what, exactly?
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: George Pazin on September 16, 2022, 01:14:57 PM
The "LIV Show" comes to Chicago this weekend at (controversial) Rich Harvest Farms.


Bunch of golf buddies were on a text exchange this week determining interest to go out there and check it out.


We all live in the city or north burbs and the venue is perhaps 50+ miles SW of us.


12 guys on the text chain and not one had any interest in going. Then again, we are all in the "dying demographic" that watches the PGA Tour.


So, I asked my 26 yo son if he wanted to go.


Nope.


Would you have attended a PGA Tour event?


Golf is one of the worst spectator events possible. I enjoy going when the USGA is in town - Ams, Opens, whatever - but that is more because I like to see the course in person, rather than on TV. And I went to the PGA event when they played at Nemacolin, but that was because I wanted to see Wiesy in person, striking the ball.


I don't care much for any professional golf, I see virtually zero difference between the PGA Tour and LIV. I watch the majors and a small number of regular events played at courses I'm interested in.


Professional golf has killed my interest in professional golf......
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim_Cronin on September 17, 2022, 03:08:15 AM
Ken,
   A share of one of those teams, which for the life of me I can't see having any value. LIV thinks they'll be worth $100 million each. That's their business plan.


   Meanwhile, the north parking lot at Rich Harvest was full yesterday. Based on the size of the lot, I estimated about 8,000 on hand.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Sean_A on September 17, 2022, 05:51:28 AM
Ken,
   A share of one of those teams, which for the life of me I can't see having any value. LIV thinks they'll be worth $100 million each. That's their business plan.


   Meanwhile, the north parking lot at Rich Harvest was full yesterday. Based on the size of the lot, I estimated about 8,000 on hand.

I suspect shares were a kicker, much like chucking in a 3rd round draft pick to seal a deal. That said, I think as a kicker, it could possibly heap great rewards down the line. What is there to lose?

Ciao
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Kalen Braley on September 28, 2022, 12:18:16 PM
Looks like LIV is now going to buy airtime (instead of receiving a fee) on FX Sports to get exposure in main stream programming.

Can't say I'm surprised, even as Norman claimed just a few weeks ago they've had lots of interest.  ;D


https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34680944/report-liv-golf-nearing-deal-buy-air-broadcast-events-fox-sports
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Mark Smolens on September 28, 2022, 01:27:49 PM
Looks like LIV is now going to buy airtime (instead of receiving a fee) on FX Sports to get exposure in main stream programming.

Can't say I'm surprised, even as Norman claimed just a few weeks ago they've had lots of interest.  ;D


https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34680944/report-liv-golf-nearing-deal-buy-air-broadcast-events-fox-sports (https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34680944/report-liv-golf-nearing-deal-buy-air-broadcast-events-fox-sports)


Wait, stop the presses. Are you telling us that Mr. Norman said something that wasn't true? I'm shocked I say, shocked.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim_Cronin on September 28, 2022, 09:25:41 PM
Now LIV is denying the time-buy story, though that's the way to bet. The AP story:


https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/liv-golf-refutes-report-deal-buy-tv-time-90659372



LIV would be the first major sports operation to buy air time for its competitions since Champ Car (CART) from 2003-2007 or so, especially for races on CBS. Lots of smaller operations do so.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Craig Sweet on September 28, 2022, 09:38:38 PM
The 54 Hole tour is going to pay to have their exhibition golf on tv?  LOL....Of course they will have to jump thru hoops and register as foreign agents according to FCC rules.

Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Steve Lang on September 28, 2022, 10:07:32 PM
Hasn't teh LPGA been paying for tv coverage years???
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Tim_Cronin on September 29, 2022, 12:21:03 AM
Hasn't teh LPGA been paying for tv coverage years???


LPGA gets a rights fee. The PGA Tour took over as the LPGA’s agent a few years ago.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Pat Burke on October 04, 2022, 02:46:00 AM
I’m not sure if true, but I was told many years ago when I was playing, much of the Australia tour TV was paid for by the tournaments?


I do not/can not remember the details, but was surprised coming from us tour that wa happening at some events.


Back when I was playing there, the course and tournaments were as good as anything in played here in the USA. I’ve always prayed that some huge sponsor would “discover” the tour down there and provide backing the country deserves
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Bruce Katona on October 04, 2022, 02:18:06 PM
FWIW I just saw that LIV attracted Cam Smith and Leishman by offering part ownership.

But a share of what, exactly?


An equity interest in a potential new venture; especially if one does not have to actually invest one's own out-of-pocket cash; has a huge financial upside with very little downside; as many VC's know.




Back in 2009-2010 the VC investment firm Elevation Partners (yep that guy - no not DJT, the Irish rock star) injected $210 million in a social media platform company called Facebook (Meta). Lots of folks snickered. 13 months later the investment was worth $1.05 Billion - a 5x in a little more than a year.


That's what can happen on the upside.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Rob Marshall on October 05, 2022, 07:37:39 AM
I’m not sure if true, but I was told many years ago when I was playing, much of the Australia tour TV was paid for by the tournaments?


I do not/can not remember the details, but was surprised coming from us tour that wa happening at some events.


Back when I was playing there, the course and tournaments were as good as anything in played here in the USA. I’ve always prayed that some huge sponsor would “discover” the tour down there and provide backing the country deserves


Wonder why Norman didn't do it with LIV? He has the name and the backing.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ken Moum on October 05, 2022, 11:16:12 AM
FWIW I just saw that LIV attracted Cam Smith and Leishman by offering part ownership.

But a share of what, exactly?

An equity interest in a potential new venture; especially if one does not have to actually invest one's own out-of-pocket cash; has a huge financial upside with very little downside; as many VC's know.




Back in 2009-2010 the VC investment firm Elevation Partners (yep that guy - no not DJT, the Irish rock star) injected $210 million in a social media platform company called Facebook (Meta). Lots of folks snickered. 13 months later the investment was worth $1.05 Billion - a 5x in a little more than a year.


That's what can happen on the upside.


Of course it can, but my question was, "A share of what?"


A share of the cost of buying new players for LIV? A share of the cost of buying time on TV?


FB didn't look like much 13 years ago, but it was a functioning thing.


I actually am interested in what the players who got a "share" are being told they're getting. I suspect it's being part owner of a team, given that selling team sponsorships has come up several times in discussions, and Poulter did say he was wearing the logos because he was and owner.

Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Ken Moum on October 05, 2022, 11:22:09 AM
I’m not sure if true, but I was told many years ago when I was playing, much of the Australia tour TV was paid for by the tournaments?


I do not/can not remember the details, but was surprised coming from us tour that wa happening at some events.


Back when I was playing there, the course and tournaments were as good as anything in played here in the USA. I’ve always prayed that some huge sponsor would “discover” the tour down there and provide backing the country deserves


Wonder why Norman didn't do it with LIV? He has the name and the backing.


You'd have to guess that it's because his primary goal has little to do with with building anything as beneficent as an Aussie Tour and completely to do with damaging the PGA Tour as much as possible.  This is, after all, the end of 30 years of him being pissed at Finchem.


And as regards buying TV time, it's pretty common.  I didn't realize it until now, the the LPGA has been buying time for years, and still has some tournaments under that system.  Then they are stuck finding sponsors to pay for it.  It's why sometimes their events that run over the allotted time don't get finished on-air.


FWIW, when I was in the outdoors writing business, I knew some guys who had fishing and hunting shows in the Midwest who did the same thing. It's a tough way to make a living, IMHO.
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Pat Burke on October 05, 2022, 05:30:16 PM
I’m not sure if true, but I was told many years ago when I was playing, much of the Australia tour TV was paid for by the tournaments?







I do not/can not remember the details, but was surprised coming from us tour that wa happening at some events.


Back when I was playing there, the course and tournaments were as good as anything in played here in the USA. I’ve always prayed that some huge sponsor would “discover” the tour down there and provide backing the country deserves


Wonder why Norman didn't do it with LIV? He has the name and the backing.






I was somewhat hoping. But would not surprise me if the Aus Tour rebuffed any overtures.



Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Pete_Pittock on October 05, 2022, 07:58:22 PM
Some time ago I read that Norman was selling his US properties to move back to Australia? Too bad that didn't work out.


So the Saudis, OPEC and partners agreed to cut oil production to increase oil prices. Nice going, LIV by extension.  Been driving, Oregon was $5.40, Los Angeles was $7.45 and in Tucson its $3.50
Title: Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
Post by: Anthony Butler on October 06, 2022, 10:24:27 AM

So the Saudis, OPEC and partners agreed to cut oil production to increase oil prices.
Every day I'm more convinced that LIV Golf is a way for the Saudis to launder money to the Trumps... in return for what?

Maybe a classified report on Israel and Iran's nuclear capabilities fell out of the box on the way from DC to Mara Lago. Will we ever find out how much Trump got from the Saudi Govt. for renting his courses to the two LIV events this year? I'll bet $1000 it was WAAAY over standard commercial rates.

Meanwhile reports are surfacing about a 'privately owned' club in Victoria hosting the Australian LIV even in 2023. Some have speculated it might be Cathedral Lodge. If that turns out to be true, at least it means Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath  etc. and thank god NSW Golf Club will not have their names besmirched by the stink of Saudi oil money.