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Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
The LIV tour is pulling off the majority of international players, many of whom have always resented that they had to live in America in order to compete at the highest level.
Are you sure they resented living in the US?  That doesn't seem to be the case with guys like Ian Poulter and Graeme McDowell who seem to quite enjoy living at Lake Nona.  Look at McDowell who has owned a couple of restaurants there for several years.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm not sure I'd use the word resent, and I'm not sure the likes of McDowell would relocate anyway, but let me suggest that players who have already moved to another country for the money will surely have fewer qualms about moving again for the same reason.


Niall

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
The LIV tour is pulling off the majority of international players, many of whom have always resented that they had to live in America in order to compete at the highest level.
Are you sure they resented living in the US?  That doesn't seem to be the case with guys like Ian Poulter and Graeme McDowell who seem to quite enjoy living at Lake Nona.  Look at McDowell who has owned a couple of restaurants there for several years.


I don't know those individual players, or indeed any of the guys who have gone over to the new tour, so I guess I shouldn't have commented.  Back in the previous generation, I did hear some griping about the pressure to play on the U.S. tour.


But they surely were ready to jump ship from the regular Tour, and it's not always just about the $$$.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Presumably there is a deal to be done between the PGA Tour, the European Tour (calling it the DP Tour is like calling Rae's Creek a 'penalty area') the PGL - which used to be Saudi money but no longer.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
First ban the LIV players for two years from PGA Tour events. One year or a fine isn't enough to make an impact.
Then make the TPC a fifth major by upping the prize money only open to PGA Tour members. The LPGA did it.
Make the FEDEX playoffs more lucrative so no player would want to miss the PGA Tour events leading up to it.
Make PGA Tour membership for a certain number of years a requirement for entry into the Hall of Fame.
 8)


I think players going to the LIV Tour won't care if they're banned, considering most have resigned.
The Tour has been trying to make people say the Players is a major since the 1970s, and it hasn't worked yet. Since when, incidentally, has the LPGA had a Players Championship?
I thought they had made the playoffs a cash cow. How many multiples of cow do you suggest?
How many years for HoF membership? (Woods got in with 24, I believe.) And since it's the World Golf Hall of Fame, what of a great European Tour player who never joined the PGA Tour? How does he get in?
The LPGA added a fifth major is what I was trying to get at.
Apparently there IS a cash amount that will move the players and the PGA needs to get there to avoid losing more name players to the LIV. The Elon idea sounds great for sponsorship using Electric vs Gas angle but if Elon is too extreme I am sure the PGA can find other sponsors ready to buy into the PGA tour now that competition has come along.
Apparently the PGA has no problem with the Euro tour just the LIV so I am sure they can adjust WGHOF requirements to put the squeeze on LIV participants or just add the infamous * to players who qualify for the WGHOF prior to or after the LIV experiment.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Apparently you all have forgotten about the apartheid regime in South Africa and the divestment movement..



It was a lot easier to be "courageous" there, considering we do almost zero business in South Africa and don't need their oil.  America is really good at leading when it doesn't cost us anything.


TD just a detail FYI, South Africa has never had any oil to speak of, they were however the world leader in converting coal into liquid fuels, look up Sasol...  some won't like their greenhouse gas emissions, but hey, when you've got to survive on your own... you do what works.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 09:00:13 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Reach a deal with the LIV to co exist.
Agree to about an 8 tournament LIV after the Open..as above nothing good after The Open on tour anyway.
Promote those 8 events going world wide to TRULY enhance growing the game.


Yep, just sounds like how the WGC events started, before they got swallowed up, and just became another boring USA Tour event.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Presumably there is a deal to be done between the PGA Tour, the European Tour (calling it the DP Tour is like calling Rae's Creek a 'penalty area') the PGL - which used to be Saudi money but no longer.

The Tour could get aggressive and more international by reviving some of the great national opens as serious payday events. It would probably mean fewer US events, but that is no bad thing. Nothing like spreading some international good will.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Clyne, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, West Byfleet, North Foreland & Ladybank

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
My instinct has always been that the PGA Tour is so heavily US centric because they've had an easier time finding sponsors willing to put up the money necessary to run events.


Perhaps I'm dead wrong and they could solicit serious partnerships all around the world!?!


Whatever their response ultimately is, it will need significant investment.

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Augusta will act in their interest, which would seem to be the status quo - keep the PGA tour as it is.  The Masters is an invitational so they could most easily ban/not invite the LIV players.  This would require changing invitations for past champions.


They wouldn't necessarily need to do that. They could continue to invite past champions, but just not include any LIV events in the exemptions category. Then any younger players who want to play in the Masters can't join LIV. PGA Tour is the only way.


I actually think the OWGR is going to be a big piece of it. If they don't consider LIV events as counting events for OWGR points, then the players on LIV won't qualify for the majors unless they're already in them. I'm not sure who runs the OWGR, but likely the PGA Tour would have some significant influence there. The problem would come if "people" view the OWGR as losing credibility by not offering points to LIV.


I was walking my dog this morning and reading my twitter feed. Mark Crossfield was whining about the Golf Channel website not showing one leaderboard on their leaderboards list and it occurred to me that I have no idea what the leaderboard looks like for it and I simply don't care. I'm much more interested in what's going on at the RBC than I am in LIV. I heard that there were 100k people watching the LIV field yesterday on youtube. Good Good manages half a million views of their videos. At the end of the day, this only matters if people watch. I did hear that the coverage was half decent and showed a lot more shots than we ever get on the PGA tour telecasts. So maybe what the PGA tour should do is learn something about the production values, improve theirs and then let the cards fall where they may.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Meanwhile, as the fight for more $$ etc. is being waged by overentitled, nearly over the hill, under established,and mostly socially awkward players intent on "getting theirs"


the economy is gathering steam to go right off a cliff,


and sponsors with withering profits and stock values will find it increasingly harder to justify multi million $ events, especially if more players jump.


and the fans and the local communities/charities supported by the PGA Tour will suffer.


While Sauidi's $$ has never been higher.
The silly season just went year round.....


Nice legacy for a man who had every opportunity to challenge the greats in golf.
Just sad, speaking as one who grew up worshiping his every move in the 80's.



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Here hear jeffwarne!!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Instead of retaliating against the mavericks, the PGA Tour should just work to improve it's product.  The ratings are in the toilet.  I have no interest in wacthing the LIV Tour but I really have no interest in watching the PGA Tour either.  The 5 most popular events - the 4 majors and the Ryder Cup - are not organized by the PGA Tour. 
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Instead of retaliating against the mavericks, the PGA Tour should just work to improve it's product.  The ratings are in the toilet.  I have no interest in wacthing the LIV Tour but I really have no interest in watching the PGA Tour either.  The 5 most popular events - the 4 majors and the Ryder Cup - are not organized by the PGA Tour.


David,

I suspect they may eventually have to considering all the defections so far to a supposedly "dead" idea just a few months ago.  And when the grinders on Tour see some no name guy from LIV with Rolexes and a Ferrari in each color...I have to think its gonna make them think twice.  But then again, maybe LIV is only going to reward the early adapters with the massive sign on bonuses.

P.S.  As much as I don't like BDC, he undoubtedly has had a huge impact to the Tour in a relatively short amount of time, that one is gonna leave a mark.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Its time for that precious roll back in technology the doomsayers have been fawning after. That would save the PGA. 

Peter Pallotta

Instead of retaliating against the mavericks, the PGA Tour should just work to improve it's product.  The ratings are in the toilet.  I have no interest in wacthing the LIV Tour but I really have no interest in watching the PGA Tour either.  The 5 most popular events - the 4 majors and the Ryder Cup - are not organized by the PGA Tour.
That might be the problem right there. The product, in general, is televised golf. Meh, no matter how you slice it. And the PGA Tour product, in particular, is re-packaged drama that can 'star' only those who have made their names elsewhere, ie by playing in and winning one or more of the 4 majors, none of which are organized by the Tour. If somehow it should come to pass that major winners are with LIV Golf, how many ways would be left for the PGA Tour to improve its products? Right now they have Rory, Justin, Jordan and Jon, but they won't stay young forever.
 


« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 01:57:52 PM by PPallotta »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Instead of retaliating against the mavericks, the PGA Tour should just work to improve it's product.  The ratings are in the toilet.  I have no interest in wacthing the LIV Tour but I really have no interest in watching the PGA Tour either.  The 5 most popular events - the 4 majors and the Ryder Cup - are not organized by the PGA Tour.


Mavericks...lol.
Sounds better when you put it like that.
I was thinking more like the "not being shy about punch and cookies" scene in Animal House...


Ratings are in the toilet for everything given the myriad of entertainment choices and delivery, and the fact that would be watchers actually play the game instead.
But, given you have no interest in watching either, why should they target you?


If they did, what would make you watch the PGA Tour? or LIV, or PGL.






I'm not convinced the PGA's not behind the whole thing to quarantine the PReeds,Bryson's and other "mavericks"...







"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Instead of retaliating against the mavericks, the PGA Tour should just work to improve it's product.  The ratings are in the toilet.  I have no interest in wacthing the LIV Tour but I really have no interest in watching the PGA Tour either.  The 5 most popular events - the 4 majors and the Ryder Cup - are not organized by the PGA Tour.
I'm not convinced the PGA's not behind the whole thing to quarantine the PReeds,Bryson's and other "mavericks"...


Do you think Jay Monahan is that cagey? Nothing Ive seen so far as it relates to the situation at hand would have me believe that.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
As we see from DeChambeau making it official today, suspensions won't stem the tide. Next week, other PGA Tour players will be chatting up the LIV crowd at The Country Club and might be convinced to move over as well. I could see a dozen more by mid-summer and more over the winter for next year's 10-tournament series.


The only thing the Tour could do is tell their member-players that if they go over, resigning or not, their penalty upon return would be payment of all LIV prize money into a special fund designed to benefit PGA Tour tournament charities. They could keep their LIV signing bonuses the Tour couldn't get that precise info anyway but all the earnings would have to be kicked back to the charity fund. And their status would be reflected only by Tour/major accomplishments, which would mean some players might have to go back to Tour qualifying.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
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Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Quote
And when the grinders on Tour see some no name guy from LIV with Rolexes and a Ferrari in each color...I have to think its gonna make them think twice.



Everyone seems to be forgetting that a full-course shotgun in three-balls is 54 players.


If this succeeds those grinders and no names will not be playing.


A tour with 30+ events and normal fields of 120 to 156 has room for a LOT of grinders and wannabes.


And the Saudis aren't putting up millions in "salary" to see the stars sit at home.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0


Everyone seems to be forgetting that a full-course shotgun in three-balls is 54 players.

If this succeeds those grinders and no names will not be playing.

A tour with 30+ events and normal fields of 120 to 156 has room for a LOT of grinders and wannabes.

And the Saudis aren't putting up millions in "salary" to see the stars sit at home.


Ken,

While that's true now, in my estimation this is nothing more than a gimmick to do something "different".  If the LIV Tour gets high demand among players and effectively obsoletes the PGATour they could easily double the 54 to 100+ by putting 2 groups on each hole like I often see in 4 man Beer Scrambles or utilize traditional tee time format.

And then they would let the PGATour beg them to become the next Korn Ferry feeder tour!  ;)

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Because of their formats, I cannot see how to keep the LIV folks out of the 2 big Opens...seeing how they are Opens and anyone, including myself (if I declare I am a professional) can give it a shot. 


So that leaves The Masters and the PGA.  And The Masters only really counts.  If the Masters does not invite some former Champions - and then has a strict policy of not discussing players who are not playing in The Masters - that would be a real shot in the arm for the Tour. 


The PGA Tour has been the 500lb gorilla for so long - even attracting sponsors that make no sense in the US (Hero World Challenge?).  A real foreign tour would work .  The source of funding is what holds many back. 
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0


Everyone seems to be forgetting that a full-course shotgun in three-balls is 54 players.

If this succeeds those grinders and no names will not be playing.

A tour with 30+ events and normal fields of 120 to 156 has room for a LOT of grinders and wannabes.

And the Saudis aren't putting up millions in "salary" to see the stars sit at home.


Ken,

While that's true now, in my estimation this is nothing more than a gimmick to do something "different".  If the LIV Tour gets high demand among players and effectively obsoletes the PGATour they could easily double the 54 to 100+ by putting 2 groups on each hole like I often see in 4 man Beer Scrambles or utilize traditional tee time format.

And then they would let the PGATour beg them to become the next Korn Ferry feeder tour!  ;)



These guys have been sold on the many benefits of a short field, no cut, shotgun start.


Everyone gets the same weather, good pace of play,  low stress.


Can you EVEN imagine how long it would take to get 36 groups around 18 holes?


Anyway, making those changes only turns it into a regular tour but with appearance money.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0


Everyone seems to be forgetting that a full-course shotgun in three-balls is 54 players.

If this succeeds those grinders and no names will not be playing.

A tour with 30+ events and normal fields of 120 to 156 has room for a LOT of grinders and wannabes.

And the Saudis aren't putting up millions in "salary" to see the stars sit at home.

Ken,

While that's true now, in my estimation this is nothing more than a gimmick to do something "different".  If the LIV Tour gets high demand among players and effectively obsoletes the PGATour they could easily double the 54 to 100+ by putting 2 groups on each hole like I often see in 4 man Beer Scrambles or utilize traditional tee time format.

And then they would let the PGATour beg them to become the next Korn Ferry feeder tour!  ;)


These guys have been sold on the many benefits of a short field, no cut, shotgun start.

Everyone gets the same weather, good pace of play,  low stress.

Can you EVEN imagine how long it would take to get 36 groups around 18 holes?

Anyway, making those changes only turns it into a regular tour but with appearance money.


Ken a shotgun start 18, with 2 3-man groups per hole?  5 hours is doable, on a slow day 6.  Still far quicker than a 70+ weekend field with serial tee times... and everyone gets the same weather, even if the 2nd group on every tee finishes 10-15 minutes later. And last I checked every PGA Tour event has anywhere from 120-150 guys on the first two days in serial fashion, but LIV can't do 100?

My only point is, they can do 100 man fields very easily, even in the winter time....and maybe the advert line will be: "Come see the best 100 players in the world"

P.S.  If taking blood money of the sponsors didn't bother them, what makes you think changing the format a bit will?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 05:47:02 PM by Kalen Braley »

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Faster play? Give me a break. The first day of LIV was 4:48 for the round. Sixteen three balls on the course. Less than one group a hole. And they were obscenely slow. Slow me the money.

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