Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sam Kestin on June 08, 2022, 06:11:11 PM
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This is more a strategy/tactics question than it is a question of right/wrong or an invitation to pass judgment on who has done what here. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the choices various people have made vis a vie the upcoming LIV Golf events, I am curious what the roundtable here thinks about what the PGA TOUR should do next.
The best piece of leverage against the players (to me anyway) seems to be major championship participation and it doesn't look to me like the PGA TOUR is going to get the kind of support from the majors that they might like in this situation.
If you were Commissioner Monahan...what would be your next moves?
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Kill the Champions Tour and put the money into purses.
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Kill the Champions Tour and put the money into purses.
Man, they can't do that to those guys. Many of them helped grow the tour to what it is, and set the stage for the trampoline effect when Tiger came along and purses exploded.
What would become of those guys? Just leave them with nowhere to compete? Back to club pro jobs?
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Champions is an interesting animal now
What Ive heard Many could be challenged
Purses Hugely subsidized from PGA tour
Originally, many players really needed the champions tour. Pensions were not much if anything for the founding players. Competition was one thing, but the income was a big thing for many.
Now we are in an age that many of the “exempt” players have substantial pensions and should be pretty secure.
It’s a huge opportunity for guys like me who have nothing, but the vast majority are fully vested and should be pretty solid .
Some “names” just don’t need to play all the time, and names drive revenues, like it or not.
I do t want to see it go away, but a significant restructure could loom if LIV has an impact
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- Ditch the year round schedule.
- Ditch the Fed Ex system
- Drastically increase the purses and points in whatever new system you come up with and prioritize the traditionally prominent Tour events like the former Crosby, former Hope, San Diego, LA, Phoenix, Colonial, Nelson, Hilton Head, Bay Hill, Memorial, Canadian and a few others and make them the backbone of the tour and the ones that 90% of the top players will play.
- Otherwise greatly reduce the number of events and make the tournaments that do survive but aren't part of the above rota low priority and low points.
- Reinvigorate the WGC tournaments that they have let die on the vine and make them true world tournaments. Have one in early January in Australia, have one in Asia in the fall and have one in Continental Europe. Incentivize players to play in them by having high purses and making it a requirement to play in a certain number of them.
- After the Memorial there really isn't an important non-major tournament for the rest of the year. Re-invigorate the Western Open and move it around the Midwest to prominent golf clubs.
- Move the match play tournament to early August and [play it at an architecturally interesting golf course.
- Since they are no longer the only game in town the Tour will need to set itself up so that the top players are facing off against each other much more often. That means fewer tournaments but more money on the line in the ones that survive.
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What would become of those guys? Just leave them with nowhere to compete? Back to club pro jobs?
Who cares? Almost nobody cares what happens to them NOW.
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Monahan should tell any course currently on the tour circuit that if they host a LIV event they will lose their PGA tournament. He should encourage his tour sponsors to stop doing business with SA. The tour should divest any investments they have with companies doing biz with SA....and they should tell ban those players that play on the LIV tour for one year from all PGA events.
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He should encourage his tour sponsors to stop doing business with SA. The tour should divest any investments they have with companies doing biz with SA....
So, like, every company?
Welcome to the PGA Tour stop at Riviera, sponsored by San Clemente's own… "Pete's Homemade Donuts."
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Monahan should tell any course currently on the tour circuit that if they host a LIV event they will lose their PGA tournament. He should encourage his tour sponsors to stop doing business with SA. The tour should divest any investments they have with companies doing biz with SA....and they should tell ban those players that play on the LIV tour for one year from all PGA events.
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[/size]Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, Oct. 6, 2021, — FedEx Express, a subsidiary of FedEx Corp. (NYSE: FDX) and the world’s largest express transportation company, has announced its transition to a direct-serve presence in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to meet the country’s growing international shipping demands. The company will invest more than SAR 1.5 billion (US $400 million) into the Saudi economy over the next 10 years through talent management and local operations and infrastructure. This investment will reaffirm the company’s commitment to the country’s non-oil economic growth, in line with Saudi Arabia’s Vision 2030 goals, and the ‘National Industrial Development and Logistics Program’ which seeks to increase non-oil exports to more than SAR 1 trillion (approximately US $266 billion)
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David, thanks for reminding us of the real world.
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8) I GUESS Monahan would first have to announce his intention to stop eating at McDonald's, 5 Guys, KFC, Hardee's, Domino's, & Subway ... to name a few company's doing business in KSA, then hold a summit with all the tour stop sponsors and have a straw poll on their favored options and gauge how long till his retirement...
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Apparently you all have forgotten about the apartheid regime in South Africa and the divestment movement..
Oh well...The thing is, a capitalist will climb into bed with anyone if there's a nickel to be made. Henry Ford, old man Kennedy...Phil, DJ, Trump, they don't care who is signing the check. They all possessed about an ounce moral fortitude.
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First ban the LIV players for two years from PGA Tour events. One year or a fine isn't enough to make an impact.
Then make the TPC a fifth major by upping the prize money only open to PGA Tour members. The LPGA did it.
Make the FEDEX playoffs more lucrative so no player would want to miss the PGA Tour events leading up to it.
Make PGA Tour membership for a certain number of years a requirement for entry into the Hall of Fame.
8)
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Apparently you all have forgotten about the apartheid regime in South Africa and the divestment movement..
Oh well...The thing is, a capitalist will climb into bed with anyone if there's a nickel to be made. Henry Ford, old man Kennedy...Phil, DJ, Trump, they don't care who is signing the check. They all possessed about an ounce moral fortitude.
Apparently the communists will climb into bed with Saudi Arabia as well since China is SA's largest trading partner by far with 20% of SA's exports going to China.
https://oec.world/en/profile/country/sau
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First ban the LIV players for two years from PGA Tour events. One year or a fine isn't enough to make an impact.
Then make the TPC a fifth major by upping the prize money only open to PGA Tour members. The LPGA did it.
Make the FEDEX playoffs more lucrative so no player would want to miss the PGA Tour events leading up to it.
Make PGA Tour membership for a certain number of years a requirement for entry into the Hall of Fame.
8)
I think players going to the LIV Tour won't care if they're banned, considering most have resigned.
The Tour has been trying to make people say the Players is a major since the 1970s, and it hasn't worked yet. Since when, incidentally, has the LPGA had a Players Championship?
I thought they had made the playoffs a cash cow. How many multiples of cow do you suggest?
How many years for HoF membership? (Woods got in with 24, I believe.) And since it's the World Golf Hall of Fame, what of a great European Tour player who never joined the PGA Tour? How does he get in?
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If you were Commissioner Monahan...what would be your next moves?
I would go to Tesla - Elon Musk, and make a deal with them. Old school fossil fuel tour vs new school electric energy tour.
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If I was Jay Monahan I'd probably do what he is doing now which is subtly, or not so subtly, threaten, cajole and bully players into staying with the PGA Tour. And if that doesn't work or a law suit prevented the continuation of that tactic then I'd quickly try and address some of the issues that have been discussed. Of course, even then the genie might already be out of the bottle and I think that is the real issue he now faces.
Niall
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Apparently you all have forgotten about the apartheid regime in South Africa and the divestment movement..
It was a lot easier to be "courageous" there, considering we do almost zero business in South Africa and don't need their oil. America is really good at leading when it doesn't cost us anything.
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I would do nothing. The LIV money is too much for some players to pass up. They were going to take it no matter what the Tour threatened. So the Tour can either throw a tantrum and lock those guys out as retribution, or they can put a smile on their face and tell them they are still welcome to play in Tour events and majors. And when Phil shows up to play Pebble or the Memorial or whatever, the Tour can profit off the increase in viewership/ticket sales.
You can’t fight an infinite bank account.
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- Ditch the year round schedule.
- Ditch the Fed Ex system
- Drastically increase the purses and points in whatever new system you come up with and prioritize the traditionally prominent Tour events like the former Crosby, former Hope, San Diego, LA, Phoenix, Colonial, Nelson, Hilton Head, Bay Hill, Memorial, Canadian and a few others and make them the backbone of the tour and the ones that 90% of the top players will play.
- Otherwise greatly reduce the number of events and make the tournaments that do survive but aren't part of the above rota low priority and low points.
- Reinvigorate the WGC tournaments that they have let die on the vine and make them true world tournaments. Have one in early January in Australia, have one in Asia in the fall and have one in Continental Europe. Incentivize players to play in them by having high purses and making it a requirement to play in a certain number of them.
- After the Memorial there really isn't an important non-major tournament for the rest of the year. Re-invigorate the Western Open and move it around the Midwest to prominent golf clubs.
- Move the match play tournament to early August and [play it at an architecturally interesting golf course.
- Since they are no longer the only game in town the Tour will need to set itself up so that the top players are facing off against each other much more often. That means fewer tournaments but more money on the line in the ones that survive.
This is probably the best list of recommendations posted, but I don't know how you square "prioritizing the traditionally prominent Tour events" with "reinvigorating the WGC events". The LIV tour is pulling off the majority of international players, many of whom have always resented that they had to live in America in order to compete at the highest level.
Where LIV will have a problem is if they start attracting Asian sponsors and insist on holding tournaments over there; that's much less attractive to most of the players. But that's where they might actually recoup some of their $.
The best thing that the PGA Tour can do is to defend home soil, because ultimately, the LIV tour isn't going to attract the best American players without holding half of its events in America. That's going to put a lot of pressure on the new relationship between the PGA Tour the European tour.
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Apparently you all have forgotten about the apartheid regime in South Africa and the divestment movement..
It was a lot easier to be "courageous" there, considering we do almost zero business in South Africa and don't need their oil. America is really good at leading when it doesn't cost us anything.
See, e.g., People's Republic of China.
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Monahan's official response:
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/pga-tour-disciplines-golfers-liv-golf (https://www.foxnews.com/sports/pga-tour-disciplines-golfers-liv-golf)
Pretty much cut them all all off completely. Including the guys who resigned to avoid some sanctions.
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Monahan's official response:
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/pga-tour-disciplines-golfers-liv-golf (https://www.foxnews.com/sports/pga-tour-disciplines-golfers-liv-golf)
Pretty much cut them all all off completely. Including the guys who resigned to avoid some sanctions.
He had no choice in the short term. The end game is what I’m interested in.
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The focus needs to be on the majors. If you can make very significantly more money and still compete in the majors the PGA Tour is in trouble.
Augusta will act in their interest, which would seem to be the status quo - keep the PGA tour as it is. The Masters is an invitational so they could most easily ban/not invite the LIV players. This would require changing invitations for past champions.
Lobby the USGA and PGA of America to be certain that playing on the LIV tour will earn no world ranking points or whatever to help players qualify. Review qualifications for the US Open and PGA and make changes to keep the LIV Players out.
That leaves The Open. Again, work with them to see that keeping the PGA Tour is in their interest. Perhaps the USGA could help.
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- Ditch the year round schedule.
- Ditch the Fed Ex system
- Drastically increase the purses and points in whatever new system you come up with and prioritize the traditionally prominent Tour events like the former Crosby, former Hope, San Diego, LA, Phoenix, Colonial, Nelson, Hilton Head, Bay Hill, Memorial, Canadian and a few others and make them the backbone of the tour and the ones that 90% of the top players will play.
- Otherwise greatly reduce the number of events and make the tournaments that do survive but aren't part of the above rota low priority and low points.
- Reinvigorate the WGC tournaments that they have let die on the vine and make them true world tournaments. Have one in early January in Australia, have one in Asia in the fall and have one in Continental Europe. Incentivize players to play in them by having high purses and making it a requirement to play in a certain number of them.
- After the Memorial there really isn't an important non-major tournament for the rest of the year. Re-invigorate the Western Open and move it around the Midwest to prominent golf clubs.
- Move the match play tournament to early August and [play it at an architecturally interesting golf course.
- Since they are no longer the only game in town the Tour will need to set itself up so that the top players are facing off against each other much more often. That means fewer tournaments but more money on the line in the ones that survive.
This is probably the best list of recommendations posted, but I don't know how you square "prioritizing the traditionally prominent Tour events" with "reinvigorating the WGC events". The LIV tour is pulling off the majority of international players, many of whom have always resented that they had to live in America in order to compete at the highest level.
Where LIV will have a problem is if they start attracting Asian sponsors and insist on holding tournaments over there; that's much less attractive to most of the players. But that's where they might actually recoup some of their $.
The best thing that the PGA Tour can do is to defend home soil, because ultimately, the LIV tour isn't going to attract the best American players without holding half of its events in America. That's going to put a lot of pressure on the new relationship between the PGA Tour the European tour.
Reach a deal with the LIV to co exist.
Agree to about an 8 tournament LIV after the Open..as above nothing good after The Open on tour anyway.
Promote those 8 events going world wide to TRULY enhance growing the game.
A win win. Players get paid without this stupid suspension...which just looks petty and childish..avoid Court battles and more questions from the Monopolies commission.
There is NO REASON the two cannot run together, the Tour just needs to quit being the bully in the room, shorten its schedule and allow for the players to get their pay as well.
If they done, I can see prolonged court battles and an increase in players jumping over to the LIV.
Young upcoming talent without a direct route to the tour, will relish the guaranteed income and then the Tour loses its next generation of entertainers.
The Tour will have to make drastic changes long term, IF the LIV lasts any longer that 3/5 years., and they ignore the potential of the LIV
Start giving guaranteed income at all events...minimum of 15 k for missing the cut
Restart the Q school process
STOP being the big bully, which has already killed what used to be a good Australian Tour for example.
I for one am delighted to see the PGA Tour get a taste of what they have been doing to others for decades
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The LIV tour is pulling off the majority of international players, many of whom have always resented that they had to live in America in order to compete at the highest level.
Are you sure they resented living in the US? That doesn't seem to be the case with guys like Ian Poulter and Graeme McDowell who seem to quite enjoy living at Lake Nona. Look at McDowell who has owned a couple of restaurants there for several years.
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I'm not sure I'd use the word resent, and I'm not sure the likes of McDowell would relocate anyway, but let me suggest that players who have already moved to another country for the money will surely have fewer qualms about moving again for the same reason.
Niall
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The LIV tour is pulling off the majority of international players, many of whom have always resented that they had to live in America in order to compete at the highest level.
Are you sure they resented living in the US? That doesn't seem to be the case with guys like Ian Poulter and Graeme McDowell who seem to quite enjoy living at Lake Nona. Look at McDowell who has owned a couple of restaurants there for several years.
I don't know those individual players, or indeed any of the guys who have gone over to the new tour, so I guess I shouldn't have commented. Back in the previous generation, I did hear some griping about the pressure to play on the U.S. tour.
But they surely were ready to jump ship from the regular Tour, and it's not always just about the $$$.
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Presumably there is a deal to be done between the PGA Tour, the European Tour (calling it the DP Tour is like calling Rae's Creek a 'penalty area') the PGL - which used to be Saudi money but no longer.
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First ban the LIV players for two years from PGA Tour events. One year or a fine isn't enough to make an impact.
Then make the TPC a fifth major by upping the prize money only open to PGA Tour members. The LPGA did it.
Make the FEDEX playoffs more lucrative so no player would want to miss the PGA Tour events leading up to it.
Make PGA Tour membership for a certain number of years a requirement for entry into the Hall of Fame.
8)
I think players going to the LIV Tour won't care if they're banned, considering most have resigned.
The Tour has been trying to make people say the Players is a major since the 1970s, and it hasn't worked yet. Since when, incidentally, has the LPGA had a Players Championship?
I thought they had made the playoffs a cash cow. How many multiples of cow do you suggest?
How many years for HoF membership? (Woods got in with 24, I believe.) And since it's the World Golf Hall of Fame, what of a great European Tour player who never joined the PGA Tour? How does he get in?
The LPGA added a fifth major is what I was trying to get at.
Apparently there IS a cash amount that will move the players and the PGA needs to get there to avoid losing more name players to the LIV. The Elon idea sounds great for sponsorship using Electric vs Gas angle but if Elon is too extreme I am sure the PGA can find other sponsors ready to buy into the PGA tour now that competition has come along.
Apparently the PGA has no problem with the Euro tour just the LIV so I am sure they can adjust WGHOF requirements to put the squeeze on LIV participants or just add the infamous * to players who qualify for the WGHOF prior to or after the LIV experiment.
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Apparently you all have forgotten about the apartheid regime in South Africa and the divestment movement..
It was a lot easier to be "courageous" there, considering we do almost zero business in South Africa and don't need their oil. America is really good at leading when it doesn't cost us anything.
TD just a detail FYI, South Africa has never had any oil to speak of, they were however the world leader in converting coal into liquid fuels, look up Sasol... some won't like their greenhouse gas emissions, but hey, when you've got to survive on your own... you do what works.
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Reach a deal with the LIV to co exist.
Agree to about an 8 tournament LIV after the Open..as above nothing good after The Open on tour anyway.
Promote those 8 events going world wide to TRULY enhance growing the game.
Yep, just sounds like how the WGC events started, before they got swallowed up, and just became another boring USA Tour event.
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Presumably there is a deal to be done between the PGA Tour, the European Tour (calling it the DP Tour is like calling Rae's Creek a 'penalty area') the PGL - which used to be Saudi money but no longer.
The Tour could get aggressive and more international by reviving some of the great national opens as serious payday events. It would probably mean fewer US events, but that is no bad thing. Nothing like spreading some international good will.
Ciao
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My instinct has always been that the PGA Tour is so heavily US centric because they've had an easier time finding sponsors willing to put up the money necessary to run events.
Perhaps I'm dead wrong and they could solicit serious partnerships all around the world!?!
Whatever their response ultimately is, it will need significant investment.
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Augusta will act in their interest, which would seem to be the status quo - keep the PGA tour as it is. The Masters is an invitational so they could most easily ban/not invite the LIV players. This would require changing invitations for past champions.
They wouldn't necessarily need to do that. They could continue to invite past champions, but just not include any LIV events in the exemptions category. Then any younger players who want to play in the Masters can't join LIV. PGA Tour is the only way.
I actually think the OWGR is going to be a big piece of it. If they don't consider LIV events as counting events for OWGR points, then the players on LIV won't qualify for the majors unless they're already in them. I'm not sure who runs the OWGR, but likely the PGA Tour would have some significant influence there. The problem would come if "people" view the OWGR as losing credibility by not offering points to LIV.
I was walking my dog this morning and reading my twitter feed. Mark Crossfield was whining about the Golf Channel website not showing one leaderboard on their leaderboards list and it occurred to me that I have no idea what the leaderboard looks like for it and I simply don't care. I'm much more interested in what's going on at the RBC than I am in LIV. I heard that there were 100k people watching the LIV field yesterday on youtube. Good Good manages half a million views of their videos. At the end of the day, this only matters if people watch. I did hear that the coverage was half decent and showed a lot more shots than we ever get on the PGA tour telecasts. So maybe what the PGA tour should do is learn something about the production values, improve theirs and then let the cards fall where they may.
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Meanwhile, as the fight for more $$ etc. is being waged by overentitled, nearly over the hill, under established,and mostly socially awkward players intent on "getting theirs"
the economy is gathering steam to go right off a cliff,
and sponsors with withering profits and stock values will find it increasingly harder to justify multi million $ events, especially if more players jump.
and the fans and the local communities/charities supported by the PGA Tour will suffer.
While Sauidi's $$ has never been higher.
The silly season just went year round.....
Nice legacy for a man who had every opportunity to challenge the greats in golf.
Just sad, speaking as one who grew up worshiping his every move in the 80's.
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Here hear jeffwarne!!
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Instead of retaliating against the mavericks, the PGA Tour should just work to improve it's product. The ratings are in the toilet. I have no interest in wacthing the LIV Tour but I really have no interest in watching the PGA Tour either. The 5 most popular events - the 4 majors and the Ryder Cup - are not organized by the PGA Tour.
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Instead of retaliating against the mavericks, the PGA Tour should just work to improve it's product. The ratings are in the toilet. I have no interest in wacthing the LIV Tour but I really have no interest in watching the PGA Tour either. The 5 most popular events - the 4 majors and the Ryder Cup - are not organized by the PGA Tour.
David,
I suspect they may eventually have to considering all the defections so far to a supposedly "dead" idea just a few months ago. And when the grinders on Tour see some no name guy from LIV with Rolexes and a Ferrari in each color...I have to think its gonna make them think twice. But then again, maybe LIV is only going to reward the early adapters with the massive sign on bonuses.
P.S. As much as I don't like BDC, he undoubtedly has had a huge impact to the Tour in a relatively short amount of time, that one is gonna leave a mark.
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It’s time for that precious roll back in technology the doomsayers have been fawning after. That would save the PGA.
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Instead of retaliating against the mavericks, the PGA Tour should just work to improve it's product. The ratings are in the toilet. I have no interest in wacthing the LIV Tour but I really have no interest in watching the PGA Tour either. The 5 most popular events - the 4 majors and the Ryder Cup - are not organized by the PGA Tour.
That might be the problem right there. The product, in general, is televised golf. Meh, no matter how you slice it. And the PGA Tour product, in particular, is re-packaged drama that can 'star' only those who have made their names elsewhere, ie by playing in and winning one or more of the 4 majors, none of which are organized by the Tour. If somehow it should come to pass that major winners are with LIV Golf, how many ways would be left for the PGA Tour to improve its products? Right now they have Rory, Justin, Jordan and Jon, but they won't stay young forever.
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Instead of retaliating against the mavericks, the PGA Tour should just work to improve it's product. The ratings are in the toilet. I have no interest in wacthing the LIV Tour but I really have no interest in watching the PGA Tour either. The 5 most popular events - the 4 majors and the Ryder Cup - are not organized by the PGA Tour.
Mavericks...lol.
Sounds better when you put it like that.
I was thinking more like the "not being shy about punch and cookies" scene in Animal House...
Ratings are in the toilet for everything given the myriad of entertainment choices and delivery, and the fact that would be watchers actually play the game instead.
But, given you have no interest in watching either, why should they target you?
If they did, what would make you watch the PGA Tour? or LIV, or PGL.
I'm not convinced the PGA's not behind the whole thing to quarantine the PReeds,Bryson's and other "mavericks"...
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Instead of retaliating against the mavericks, the PGA Tour should just work to improve it's product. The ratings are in the toilet. I have no interest in wacthing the LIV Tour but I really have no interest in watching the PGA Tour either. The 5 most popular events - the 4 majors and the Ryder Cup - are not organized by the PGA Tour.
I'm not convinced the PGA's not behind the whole thing to quarantine the PReeds,Bryson's and other "mavericks"...
Do you think Jay Monahan is that cagey? Nothing I’ve seen so far as it relates to the situation at hand would have me believe that.
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As we see from DeChambeau making it official today, suspensions won't stem the tide. Next week, other PGA Tour players will be chatting up the LIV crowd at The Country Club and might be convinced to move over as well. I could see a dozen more by mid-summer and more over the winter for next year's 10-tournament series.
The only thing the Tour could do is tell their member-players that if they go over, resigning or not, their penalty upon return would be payment of all LIV prize money into a special fund designed to benefit PGA Tour tournament charities. They could keep their LIV signing bonuses – the Tour couldn't get that precise info anyway – but all the earnings would have to be kicked back to the charity fund. And their status would be reflected only by Tour/major accomplishments, which would mean some players might have to go back to Tour qualifying.
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And when the grinders on Tour see some no name guy from LIV with Rolexes and a Ferrari in each color...I have to think its gonna make them think twice.
Everyone seems to be forgetting that a full-course shotgun in three-balls is 54 players.
If this succeeds those grinders and no names will not be playing.
A tour with 30+ events and normal fields of 120 to 156 has room for a LOT of grinders and wannabes.
And the Saudis aren't putting up millions in "salary" to see the stars sit at home.
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Everyone seems to be forgetting that a full-course shotgun in three-balls is 54 players.
If this succeeds those grinders and no names will not be playing.
A tour with 30+ events and normal fields of 120 to 156 has room for a LOT of grinders and wannabes.
And the Saudis aren't putting up millions in "salary" to see the stars sit at home.
Ken,
While that's true now, in my estimation this is nothing more than a gimmick to do something "different". If the LIV Tour gets high demand among players and effectively obsoletes the PGATour they could easily double the 54 to 100+ by putting 2 groups on each hole like I often see in 4 man Beer Scrambles or utilize traditional tee time format.
And then they would let the PGATour beg them to become the next Korn Ferry feeder tour! ;)
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Because of their formats, I cannot see how to keep the LIV folks out of the 2 big Opens...seeing how they are Opens and anyone, including myself (if I declare I am a professional) can give it a shot.
So that leaves The Masters and the PGA. And The Masters only really counts. If the Masters does not invite some former Champions - and then has a strict policy of not discussing players who are not playing in The Masters - that would be a real shot in the arm for the Tour.
The PGA Tour has been the 500lb gorilla for so long - even attracting sponsors that make no sense in the US (Hero World Challenge?). A real foreign tour would work . The source of funding is what holds many back.
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Everyone seems to be forgetting that a full-course shotgun in three-balls is 54 players.
If this succeeds those grinders and no names will not be playing.
A tour with 30+ events and normal fields of 120 to 156 has room for a LOT of grinders and wannabes.
And the Saudis aren't putting up millions in "salary" to see the stars sit at home.
Ken,
While that's true now, in my estimation this is nothing more than a gimmick to do something "different". If the LIV Tour gets high demand among players and effectively obsoletes the PGATour they could easily double the 54 to 100+ by putting 2 groups on each hole like I often see in 4 man Beer Scrambles or utilize traditional tee time format.
And then they would let the PGATour beg them to become the next Korn Ferry feeder tour! ;)
These guys have been sold on the many benefits of a short field, no cut, shotgun start.
Everyone gets the same weather, good pace of play, low stress.
Can you EVEN imagine how long it would take to get 36 groups around 18 holes?
Anyway, making those changes only turns it into a regular tour but with appearance money.
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Everyone seems to be forgetting that a full-course shotgun in three-balls is 54 players.
If this succeeds those grinders and no names will not be playing.
A tour with 30+ events and normal fields of 120 to 156 has room for a LOT of grinders and wannabes.
And the Saudis aren't putting up millions in "salary" to see the stars sit at home.
Ken,
While that's true now, in my estimation this is nothing more than a gimmick to do something "different". If the LIV Tour gets high demand among players and effectively obsoletes the PGATour they could easily double the 54 to 100+ by putting 2 groups on each hole like I often see in 4 man Beer Scrambles or utilize traditional tee time format.
And then they would let the PGATour beg them to become the next Korn Ferry feeder tour! ;)
These guys have been sold on the many benefits of a short field, no cut, shotgun start.
Everyone gets the same weather, good pace of play, low stress.
Can you EVEN imagine how long it would take to get 36 groups around 18 holes?
Anyway, making those changes only turns it into a regular tour but with appearance money.
Ken a shotgun start 18, with 2 3-man groups per hole? 5 hours is doable, on a slow day 6. Still far quicker than a 70+ weekend field with serial tee times... and everyone gets the same weather, even if the 2nd group on every tee finishes 10-15 minutes later. And last I checked every PGA Tour event has anywhere from 120-150 guys on the first two days in serial fashion, but LIV can't do 100?
My only point is, they can do 100 man fields very easily, even in the winter time....and maybe the advert line will be: "Come see the best 100 players in the world"
P.S. If taking blood money of the sponsors didn't bother them, what makes you think changing the format a bit will?
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Faster play? Give me a break. The first day of LIV was 4:48 for the round. Sixteen three balls on the course. Less than one group a hole. And they were obscenely slow. Slow me the money.
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These guys will dance as fast needed to keep the tap flowing. It’s like they are partners now.
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Finally a solution that will kill slow play. No appearance fees for anyone who harms the product. Swift justice.
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Faster play? Give me a break. The first day of LIV was 4:48 for the round. Sixteen three balls on the course. Less than one group a hole. And they were obscenely slow. Slow me the money.
Was coming to say the same thing. Put a 4:00 round limit on the guys and it'd be more compelling.
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Faster play? Give me a break. The first day of LIV was 4:48 for the round. Sixteen three balls on the course. Less than one group a hole. And they were obscenely slow. Slow me the money.
Not faster play, just much faster time overall to complete field play on any given day.
If those 16 groups teed off in 10 minute intervals on the 1st tee, it'd take 2.5 hours just to get everyone on the course, and then another 4 1/2 hours for the last group to finish...
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Faster play? Give me a break. The first day of LIV was 4:48 for the round. Sixteen three balls on the course. Less than one group a hole. And they were obscenely slow. Slow me the money.
Well, I never said faster...I said good pace, and something around 4:30 seems to be comfortable for those guys.
But imagine what 100 pros would do in an 18-hole shotgun.
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Faster play? Give me a break. The first day of LIV was 4:48 for the round. Sixteen three balls on the course. Less than one group a hole. And they were obscenely slow. Slow me the money.
Well, I never said faster...I said good pace, and something around 4:30 seems to be comfortable for those guys.
But imagine what 100 pros would do in an 18-hole shotgun.
That would never work. Remember, Kevin Na's in the field. If this was racing, he's a moving chicane.
But I could see adding six more players, three on each tee to start. And the total is the magic number for this operation: 54.
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Faster play? Give me a break. The first day of LIV was 4:48 for the round. Sixteen three balls on the course. Less than one group a hole. And they were obscenely slow. Slow me the money.
Well, I never said faster...I said good pace, and something around 4:30 seems to be comfortable for those guys.
But imagine what 100 pros would do in an 18-hole shotgun.
That would never work. Remember, Kevin Na's in the field. If this was racing, he's a moving chicane.
But I could see adding six more players, three on each tee to start. And the total is the magic number for this operation: 54.
IOW...
LIV
😁
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Apparently you all have forgotten about the apartheid regime in South Africa and the divestment movement..
Oh well...The thing is, a capitalist will climb into bed with anyone if there's a nickel to be made. Henry Ford, old man Kennedy...Phil, DJ, Trump, they don't care who is signing the check. They all possessed about an ounce moral fortitude.
Well, you can soon include our current president on the list of politicians and business people that have and will continue to engage with the Kingdom. There is no way to draw the line in sand that freezes out the Saudis. We are long past being able to go that direction. Watch in a few weeks for that handshake between Joe and MBS. Will look the same as the one with Trump. Reality always gets in the way of principles.
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Reach a deal with the LIV to co exist.
Agree to about an 8 tournament LIV after the Open..as above nothing good after The Open on tour anyway.
Promote those 8 events going world wide to TRULY enhance growing the game.
A win win. Players get paid without this stupid suspension...which just looks petty and childish..avoid Court battles and more questions from the Monopolies commission.
There is NO REASON the two cannot run together, the Tour just needs to quit being the bully in the room, shorten its schedule and allow for the players to get their pay as well.
If they done, I can see prolonged court battles and an increase in players jumping over to the LIV.
Young upcoming talent without a direct route to the tour, will relish the guaranteed income and then the Tour loses its next generation of entertainers.
The Tour will have to make drastic changes long term, IF the LIV lasts any longer that 3/5 years., and they ignore the potential of the LIV
Start giving guaranteed income at all events...minimum of 15 k for missing the cut
Restart the Q school process
STOP being the big bully, which has already killed what used to be a good Australian Tour for example.
I for one am delighted to see the PGA Tour get a taste of what they have been doing to others for decades
MWP called it early!!!
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Apparently you all have forgotten about the apartheid regime in South Africa and the divestment movement..
Oh well...The thing is, a capitalist will climb into bed with anyone if there's a nickel to be made. Henry Ford, old man Kennedy...Phil, DJ, Trump, they don't care who is signing the check. They all possessed about an ounce moral fortitude.
Craig - do you own a phone? A tv? A car?
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Apparently you all have forgotten about the apartheid regime in South Africa and the divestment movement..
Oh well...The thing is, a capitalist will climb into bed with anyone if there's a nickel to be made. Henry Ford, old man Kennedy...Phil, DJ, Trump, they don't care who is signing the check. They all possessed about an ounce moral fortitude.
On point.
Craig - do you own a phone? A tv? A car?
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This is more a strategy/tactics question than it is a question of right/wrong or an invitation to pass judgment on who has done what here. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the choices various people have made vis a vie the upcoming LIV Golf events, I am curious what the roundtable here thinks about what the PGA TOUR should do next.
The best piece of leverage against the players (to me anyway) seems to be major championship participation and it doesn't look to me like the PGA TOUR is going to get the kind of support from the majors that they might like in this situation.
If you were Commissioner Monahan...what would be your next moves?
I would resign if I were him. He was seemingly blindsided by LIV formation, did not anticipate its success, however limited, in recruiting some top players. And his best shot was to play the 9/11 card, which he has just torn to shreds. Any self respecting public company would have sent him packing for incompetence. CEOs are supposed to anticipate events and provide strategic direction. He failed at both. His failure begs the question: how capable are these other commissioners running monopolies and getting overpaid for the title?