[Rob Rigg]

This is exciting news for anyone who has always wondered what it would be like to see the magical Lido - aka - lost atlantis of US GCA - in person so I'm glad that the Keiser bros and Mr Doak are planning on recreating it as closely as possible.

Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.
The only, "meh," element for me is that new courses are rarely getting constructed in the US and so much of what we are seeing in architecture these days is "template, template, template." Although, to be fair, much of it is restoration work at golden age courses.
That being said, the addition of the Lido should make SV a legit competitor to Bandon as numero uno golf resort in the country. Amazing variety of architectural experiences when all 4 courses are done.
Congrats to everyone involved in bringing the Lido to life!

[William_G]

That being said, the addition of the Lido should make SV a legit competitor to Bandon as numero uno golf resort in the country.

at least from May to October, LOL

[Adam G]

Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.

According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."

[Tom_Doak]

Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.

According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."

I doubt Geoff knows more about it than I do.  There is no timetable for it, but it is not dead.

[Morgan Clawson]

Nice Lido story by Garrett Morrison on The Fried Egg website:

http://https://thefriedegg.com/lido-in-wisconsin-sand-valley-michael-keiser-tom-doak-restoration/



Also, great podcast that dropped today with Andy Johnson of The Fried Egg with Tom Doak:

Yolk with Doak, Episode 28:  The Lido Club

[Adam G]

According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."

I doubt Geoff knows more about it than I do.  There is no timetable for it, but it is not dead.

I agree. Glad it's not dead!

[Pat Burke]

Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.

According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."

I doubt Geoff knows more about it than I do.  There is no timetable for it, but it is not dead.

Geoff likely believes he does

[John_Cullum]

Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.

According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."

I doubt Geoff knows more about it than I do.  There is no timetable for it, but it is not dead.

Geoff likely believes he does

Audible chuckle

[Peter Flory]

--

[Peter Flory]

I viewed the Lido as a template course before really getting to know it, but don't view it that way now and would never describe it to anyone as that.

Just as an example, the 1st hole- called "First" on the card.  Very unique and dramatic fairway contouring- I don't know where CBM got his inspiration for the fairway dynamics, but he did a great job creating something that looks like it was laid over pure linksland here- especially the first half of the fairway.  It's so quirky and specific- i.e. not geometric or just randomly sprinkled undulations, but choreographed ones meant to mimic nature.  And what you see in the ground was almost identical to the plan... amazingly.  Imagine being out there with horses and forms in basically quicksand and trying to shape this.  Per written accounts, the sea of sand to the right and the lack of any trees was a shock to the senses for American golfers and like nothing they had ever encountered.  They were standing on the Moon basically. 

Calling this a template is like calling Jimmie Hendrix's All Along the Watchtower a cover. 


The 2nd is another good example.  It is epic off the tee.  Blind tee shot over a huge waste area and a raised ridge with a speed slot dynamic to the right.  "With a head wind to face, this carry becomes a fearsome thing."  While it is a double plateau green, CBM mentions that the exact design of the green was taken from one of the 80 contest entries (not a pre-existing golf hole).  And if you look at the plans, this is unlike any other green you've seen in your life. 

And by the time that we get to the 4th hole, CBM has lit his guitar on fire and is soloing on it with his teeth!  But it is only one of several grand finales. 

How I categorize the holes at this point:

A) Recognizable template holes:
3, 8, 10, 13, 14, and 16.  Note that this contains all of the par 3s.  And I'd argue that these all have twists that make them either unique or just excellent in relation to others in their template category.  The water behind 16 with the tight grass runoff for example.  The 8th needs no explanation- inspired not derivative.  Was called "Ocean" on the card.   

B) Original holes:
4, 6, 11, 15, and 18.  Note that on 4, CBM didn't copy Littlestone, but created a hole that was based on what he thought Littlestone could have done with their hole if they would have opened their eyes to it- his imagination running wild and tapping into the reference library in his head.  11 was made up by CBM and is wild as hell- my underrated favorite.  The rest were contest entries.  He was crowd sourcing about 100 years ahead of the trend.   This group includes 2 of the most famous holes in history from two of the best architects.  This crowdsourcing added diversity to the course and his placing of them and editing them made them fit in cohesively. 

C) Templates by name only-
1, 2, 5, 7, 9, 12, and 17.  variations so unformulaic that they should be considered to be unique holes.  If they have template characteristics, it may only be one aspect, like the green on 12 or the length of 17.  What is another hole that is similar to the 12th at the Lido, aside from the green?  It has the tee shot of 18th at Sawgrass with an uphill approach blind and over a nasty set of cross bunkers with a green surrounded by waste area.  The approach was meant to be played with a 1-iron!  And CBM calls the 17th a composite hole, which meant that he was combining several sources of inspiration.

I don't want to tell you what to think, but just wanted to share how my own thinking changed over the last few years and why I believe that the holes here are in a very different category than later template holes, which become more standardized and geometric.  The wild grounds of the CBM Lido vs the manicured grounds of later Raynors is another aspect that made Lido seem organic from the ground level.  When I read first hand accounts of the course and matches there, "fog of war" comes to my mind.  Hopefully we'll all find that out what that feels like when we play it.

[Sven Nilsen]

Peter-

Your last post stirred a few thoughts on the concept of MacDonald's templates, namely the mistaken notion that he was "copying" the famous holes from abroad in his composition of an ideal course.

In fact, CBM clearly let us know that many of his ideal holes were not copies, but rather in some cases borrowed only certain concepts from parts of those famous holes or were merely inspired by those holes (i.e. the Biarritz, whose inspiration was a par 4).  My read of what you wrote is that you are comparing the holes at Lido against the other versions of those holes found elsewhere.  In my mind, the comparison should be made to what he wrote about his "Ideal Course" in the Jan. 1907 Golfers Magazine article where these concepts were first set forth.

When he discussed the concept behind the 4th at Lido in 1907, his ideal hole was "suggested" by the 16th at Littlestone.  This idea of creating "a hole that was based on what he thought Littlestone could have done with their hole if they would have opened their eyes to it" is what he did with many of the ideal holes.

Perhaps instead of the word "template" it would make more sense to use the word "guide" or something else that captured the abstract nature of his ideal course.  It was more about the shots that were being asked of or offered to the player than any strict adherence to presubscribed notions of what each hole on the ideal course should look like.

That being said, Lido did incorporate a number of new concepts that were outside of the general framework he laid down  in 1907.  But I think the Lido needs to be looked at with the ghost of NGLA lurking the background.   The Lido had to have something that made it different from its Long Island rival.  It was to be a bigger and bolder version of NGLA, one that would present the best test of links golf in America.  And it was the perfect opportunity to try a few new concepts.  The 18th and any other concepts taken from the prize contest are examples of this.

Sven

[Rob Rigg]

Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.

According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."

I doubt Geoff knows more about it than I do.  There is no timetable for it, but it is not dead.

That's great to hear!
And Will G - Indeed! Living in PDX and having BDGR 4 hours away and playable year round (especially during "deal season") makes it one of my favorite places on the planet.

The diversity of the four courses at SV would encourage me to travel there in a way that only the two courses on site makes it a bit harder to justify.

Peter - Thanks so much for your amazing work on the Lido and thoughts on the term template and their use versus reality at this course. Sven's "guide" suggestion is both interesting and compelling and would be part of my marketing story for sure.

It sounds like the Lido was very much CBM in a heightened state of creativity with a canvas where he essentially had carte blanche to amplify templates as he saw fit or augment, or even abandon them, if that would maximize the design. Sort of a "CBM Dream 18" - Can't wait to play it!

[Sven Nilsen]

Rob:


Even in 1907 CBM was building in the latitude that gets to the points made by Peter in his post.


Here is the lead-in to the section in that article that lays out the 18 holes:


"...following are eighteen holes which occur to me as being about right.  Of course, the reader must assume that the run of the ground and the hazards are correct."


He then proceeds to describe those 18 holes, using words like "similar to," "composite of," "resembling," "suggested by," and "like." 


Just after the list, he says this:  "I have notes of many holes equally as good as a number of the above, but this list will convey to the mind of the reader a fair idea of what I have gleaned during the last few months as constituting a perfect length of hole consistent with variety."


The whole article reads very much like the establishment of a very general framework, with that underlying principal of variety being at its core. 


Sven

[Peter Flory]

Template courses have a pretty specific stereotype in a lot of people's minds and I think it is due to the stylized sub-genre that resulted from many iterations of self-referencing: geometric shapes, very predictable and tidy bunkering in the classical spots, very clear strategies to solve the hole, etc.  And I think that stereotype is what a lot of people roll their eyes over and rebel against.

So when someone says that the Lido is a template course, they think about the regimented and formulaic templates.

And that is my big point here, I think that they will be pleasantly surprised when they see how wild and imaginative it really was.

[Sven Nilsen]

Template courses have a pretty specific stereotype in a lot of people's minds and I think it is due to the stylized sub-genre that resulted from many iterations of self-referencing: geometric shapes, very predictable and tidy bunkering in the classical spots, very clear strategies to solve the hole, etc.  And I think that stereotype is what a lot of people roll their eyes over and rebel against.

So when someone says that the Lido is a template course, they think about the regimented and formulaic templates.

That stereotype is because those people have been told that CBM and Raynor always built the same holes.  There is no understanding of the nuances involved with adapting those holes to specific sites, or fitting a course on a certain piece of land so that the natural features were best utilized in a way that was coherent with CBM's ideals.

But mostly it is because they misunderstand the difference between borrowing and copying.

You are starting to understand the difference.

Sven

[Peter Pallotta]

Sven earlier suggested the term 'guide', and that seems fine; but I've always tended to use, rightly or wrongly, the term 'principles', ie that CBM meant to highlight great & enduring architectural principles from his study of overseas courses, and then replicate and/or adapt them on the holes and courses he was building here -- such that for him an 'ideal course' made manifest as many as those great architectural principles as possible, across short, medium, and long holes and on Par 3s, 4s and 5s.
That's the background to my earlier post, ie my sense of this Lido re-creation as an exercise in 'pure design': it's those principles that Tom and his team will be bringing back to life, if possible 'to the inch' as it were, and not Tom's own vision/creativity.

[Brett Wiesley]

Congratulations to Tom and his team.  Getting a go at the Lido is an amazing opportunity.  I hope in the future your other project at Sand Valley comes to fruition as the concept seemed worthy of your time.

[Jeff Schley]

The entire SV project is a boon for a very neglected area in Wisconsin employment wise. It is in the middle of darn near nowhere and kudos to the Keiser's for their development which just keeps getting better. 2 great courses and the Sandbox now, the Lido course and Sedge Valley coming soon it is a tremendous project for golfers and the local community as well. They have the grass tennis courts, high end on site lodging and private lots available. They will continue to vertically integrate to make it almost an all inclusive experience.

Makes me wonder could Sand Hills have done the same type of model? I guess you could say Dismal River did it and has saturated the area. However, if SH built a couple more courses that were public and amenities would it have the same success as SV? The ground there supposedly has enough green sites for as many courses as developers want to put he money up for.

Remoteness is the biggest factor and proximity to DR.
EDIT: BTW didn't realize SV is now open year round. Good article here explaining the rationale.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/seasonal-resorts-open-year-round/2021/01/14/5b1bac0a-4b90-11eb-839a-cf4ba7b7c48c_story.html

[Bill Brightly]

The Fried Egg episode that Morgan mentioned is fascinating, definitely worth a listen: Yolk with Doak episode 28

[Tom_Doak]

Makes me wonder could Sand Hills have done the same type of model? I guess you could say Dismal River did it and has saturated the area. However, if SH built a couple more courses that were public and amenities would it have the same success as SV? The ground there supposedly has enough green sites for as many courses as developers want to put he money up for.

Jeff:


Golf in the Nebraska sand hills is a marginal business proposition.  The season is very short, and hardly any customers live within 3-4 hours, so you can't efficiently take advantage of the nice days when they come in the iffy months.


Mr. Youngscap could easily build more courses on his land, or probably buy Dismal River for pennies on the dollar if he wanted to, but I don't think he believes he could make enough money to justify the risk, and I tend to agree.  I would love to build more courses out there, but if you can't piggyback off the infrastructure at one of the existing courses, there's no way it makes sense.

[Don Mahaffey]

Seems like we have the 2021 version of the Lido contest with this course in WI being built and the course in Thailand.  I wonder what they would be called if the Lido name had been protected in some way.


This entire process of basically producing a "cover" is fascinating to me, especially when the course no longer exists and hasn't for decades.


Will raters judge the two courses by which is the more exacting copy? And if so, what basis will they use to determine which is more accurate? Or, are they to be viewed as interpretations of the original but riffed on by each team to produce something that is a combo of the original and the current design team's ideas?


To me it feels a little like if John Mayer were to produce a cover of Eddie Van Halen's Eruption. The music will always be Van Halen's but Mayer would surly rif on the notes and not attempt to copy exactly.  Because he can't recreate EVH's exact movements and timing.


So while I look forward to seeing both new Lido's, and the one in WI will be a must visit, I'm most interested on how the teams interpreted the data they were able to collect, and then added their own notes...especially since I cant see, touch, or even review a 1' topo of the original. It'll be interesting to learn how they mapped the original.


PS, Lido has always felt like a "theme" to me, I know it was real, but it seems like something magical and part of that magic was the Lido contest and how some of those entries were used to design the course. If these covers are to be authentic to that Lido theme, I think they should have brought that aspect back too. There have been some very good Lido entries over the years and it would have been cool to see some used.

[Tim Martin]

Seems like we have the 2021 version of the Lido contest with this course in WI being built and the course in Thailand.  I wonder what they would be called if the Lido name had been protected in some way.


This entire process of basically producing a "cover" is fascinating to me, especially when the course no longer exists and hasn't for decades.


Will raters judge the two courses by which is the more exacting copy? And if so, what basis will they use to determine which is more accurate? Or, are they to be viewed as interpretations of the original but riffed on by each team to produce something that is a combo of the original and the current design team's ideas?


To me it feels a little like if John Mayer were to produce a cover of Eddie Van Halen's Eruption. The music will always be Van Halen's but Mayer would surly rif on the notes and not attempt to copy exactly.  Because he can't recreate EVH's exact movements and timing.


So while I look forward to seeing both new Lido's, and the one in WI will be a must visit, I'm most interested on how the teams interpreted the data they were able to collect, and then added their own notes...especially since I cant see, touch, or even review a 1' topo of the original. It'll be interesting to learn how they mapped the original.


PS, Lido has always felt like a "theme" to me, I know it was real, but it seems like something magical and part of that magic was the Lido contest and how some of those entries were used to design the course. If these covers are to be authentic to that Lido theme, I think they should have brought that aspect back too. There have been some very good Lido entries over the years and it would have been cool to see some used.

Don-I don’t think the list of people that see both will be very big. Unless you live in Asia how many will travel to Thailand for golf from U.S./Western Europe?

[Ira Fishman]

Seems like we have the 2021 version of the Lido contest with this course in WI being built and the course in Thailand.  I wonder what they would be called if the Lido name had been protected in some way.


This entire process of basically producing a "cover" is fascinating to me, especially when the course no longer exists and hasn't for decades.


Will raters judge the two courses by which is the more exacting copy? And if so, what basis will they use to determine which is more accurate? Or, are they to be viewed as interpretations of the original but riffed on by each team to produce something that is a combo of the original and the current design team's ideas?


To me it feels a little like if John Mayer were to produce a cover of Eddie Van Halen's Eruption. The music will always be Van Halen's but Mayer would surly rif on the notes and not attempt to copy exactly.  Because he can't recreate EVH's exact movements and timing.


So while I look forward to seeing both new Lido's, and the one in WI will be a must visit, I'm most interested on how the teams interpreted the data they were able to collect, and then added their own notes...especially since I cant see, touch, or even review a 1' topo of the original. It'll be interesting to learn how they mapped the original.


PS, Lido has always felt like a "theme" to me, I know it was real, but it seems like something magical and part of that magic was the Lido contest and how some of those entries were used to design the course. If these covers are to be authentic to that Lido theme, I think they should have brought that aspect back too. There have been some very good Lido entries over the years and it would have been cool to see some used.

Don,


It is a fascinating question. My guess is that it may depend on how much leeway the developers give the architect. I doubt either of the architects are going to be allowed to be Jimi Hendrix covering either the Star Spangled Banner or All Along the Watchtower.


Ira

[Tom_Doak]

Seems like we have the 2021 version of the Lido contest with this course in WI being built and the course in Thailand.  I wonder what they would be called if the Lido name had been protected in some way.


This entire process of basically producing a "cover" is fascinating to me, especially when the course no longer exists and hasn't for decades.


Will raters judge the two courses by which is the more exacting copy? And if so, what basis will they use to determine which is more accurate? Or, are they to be viewed as interpretations of the original but riffed on by each team to produce something that is a combo of the original and the current design team's ideas?


To me it feels a little like if John Mayer were to produce a cover of Eddie Van Halen's Eruption. The music will always be Van Halen's but Mayer would surly rif on the notes and not attempt to copy exactly.  Because he can't recreate EVH's exact movements and timing.


So while I look forward to seeing both new Lido's, and the one in WI will be a must visit, I'm most interested on how the teams interpreted the data they were able to collect, and then added their own notes...especially since I cant see, touch, or even review a 1' topo of the original. It'll be interesting to learn how they mapped the original.


PS, Lido has always felt like a "theme" to me, I know it was real, but it seems like something magical and part of that magic was the Lido contest and how some of those entries were used to design the course. If these covers are to be authentic to that Lido theme, I think they should have brought that aspect back too. There have been some very good Lido entries over the years and it would have been cool to see some used.

Don:  I get that some people will dismiss this course as a "cover" but the analogy isn't quite right, because nobody can listen to the original music anymore.  I wouldn't be doing this if the original golf course was still around.


I can't have been clearer in what I've said about the project that our goal is to reproduce the original course as best we can and NOT to add our own notes.  I am treating it like a restoration, albeit a restoration that requires a lot more work than usual.  I've done my riff on Macdonald -- here, instead, we are trying to build what Macdonald once built.  That's the only way I would use the name Lido for what we are doing.  [If they were actually doing that in Thailand, I probably wouldn't be doing it in Wisconsin, but if you look at the plan for Ballyshear you can see right away it's not that.]


Also, though it may be a weird distinction for some, we are not copying a piece of God-given terrain.  Macdonald's Lido was built from scratch, just like our version of it will be.


The interesting aspect of the course, for me, is that I'm already getting calls about "why don't you do your own ideal course from scratch?".  If we can pull off the Lido to my satisfaction, I might just try it.

[Lou_Duran]

Since we're on this music/guitar kick, how about a tribute course to MacKenzie next door to the new Lido.  Since land costs would be nil, maybe it would be feasible for Mike DeVries to dust off his plans and build El Boqueron.   And like the first two Streamsong golf courses, all sorts of synergies might be possible.   Maybe two courses for the price of 1.5? 

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