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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: PCCraig on July 28, 2020, 03:46:41 PM

Title: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: PCCraig on July 28, 2020, 03:46:41 PM
Hearing rumors (and surprised nothing posted here yet) from quite a few folks that the famed Lido will be rebuilt as part of a private club located very close to Sand Valley in Wisconsin.


Anyone else hearing something similar?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Cal Seifert on July 28, 2020, 04:09:16 PM
They wonít have to worry about the Biarritz eroding into the ocean.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: JC Jones on July 28, 2020, 05:32:14 PM
We will get the opportunity to do a hole by hole match play between Lido (Thailand) and Lido (Wisconsin).
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: John Emerson on July 28, 2020, 06:52:19 PM
How is this possible to duplicate in the middle of Wisconsin?  I guess with enough money anything is possible though.  I, for one, love the lore of Lido, but is this even possible for this type of course to live up to the hype?  I feel like these types of things usually fall short.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Drew Harvie on July 28, 2020, 06:53:27 PM
We will get the opportunity to do a hole by hole match play between Lido (Thailand) and Lido (Wisconsin).


Two is better than one!
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Joel_Stewart on July 28, 2020, 10:55:15 PM
I guess it's out of the bag. Michael Keiser is obsessed with the Lido and wants to build it there.


They sent some photos to the partners last week, using the ones posted here on GCA.  Tom Doak will be the architect.


My guess it will be a few years away.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Ronald Montesano on July 29, 2020, 06:42:32 AM
Well, it wasn't out of the bag until that last post. It was simply rumor, wafting on the wind.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jeff Schley on July 29, 2020, 08:22:58 AM
I had only hear Keiser and Wisconsin, didn't know Doak or private. Unless built concurrently with Doaks short course which I don't believe has even started yet, it will be several years before we see it.  Exciting stuff.
Can't wait to see Peter Flory's Lido course built as a simulated course in it's entirety.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: PCCraig on July 29, 2020, 08:48:22 AM
From what I've heard it may be a bit of a real estate development. Good ol' fashioned selling lots to pay for the golf course. So, perhaps the course will be built more quickly depending on interest in joining/building at the club.


I thought Tom Doak's Sand Valley course was officially on hold due to the economy?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on July 29, 2020, 10:07:21 AM
Well, it wasn't out of the bag until that last post. It was simply rumor, wafting on the wind.


Everything's a rumor until the money is committed, especially in the days of coronavirus, so there's not much reason to discuss it now.


And honestly there isn't much to discuss if it goes ahead, until it is ready to play.  The intent is to recreate the golf course as best we can.  The only changes will be to spread out the holes in spots for safety reasons, which might allow for a few extra tees.  Otherwise we will be trying to rebuild the golf holes and features as precisely as we can - I'm not going to try to redesign or improve the holes.


It's a separate project financed independently of Sand Valley, so the timing of the two are not related.  But my guess is that this will either get going soon, or not at all.  They are taking deposits for memberships and you can only hold onto that money for so long.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Mark Fedeli on July 29, 2020, 11:50:08 AM
Well, it wasn't out of the bag until that last post. It was simply rumor, wafting on the wind.


Everything's a rumor until the money is committed, especially in the days of coronavirus, so there's not much reason to discuss it now.


And honestly there isn't much to discuss if it goes ahead, until it is ready to play.  The intent is to recreate the golf course as best we can.  The only changes will be to spread out the holes in spots for safety reasons, which might allow for a few extra tees.  Otherwise we will be trying to rebuild the golf holes and features as precisely as we can - I'm not going to try to redesign or improve the holes.


It's a separate project financed independently of Sand Valley, so the timing of the two are not related.  But my guess is that this will either get going soon, or not at all.  They are taking deposits for memberships and you can only hold onto that money for so long.


I'm all for this. I understand the hesitation some have for tribute courses or direct recreations, but the outsized lore and legend of Lido has earned it this opportunity. And its existence can only help educate people about golf and GCA history. But most importantly, Tom's work expresses a diversity of ideas and concepts ó for him specifically to try this is exciting and fits in nicely with his overall career. To go from the extremes of minimalism/naturalism to not only moving a lot of earth, but moving it to near-exactly match a NLE that in its day had moved a shocking amount of earth... that's the kind of variety I can get behind. Let's have some fun, folks!
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Garland Bayley on July 29, 2020, 11:55:09 AM
...
Otherwise we will be trying to rebuild the golf holes and features as precisely as we can - I'm not going to try to redesign or improve the holes.
...

What will be the source of that precision?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Mike Hendren on July 29, 2020, 11:56:12 AM
So, in a nutshell Lido's waitin' for the go?

Bogey
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Kalen Braley on July 29, 2020, 12:07:56 PM
...
Otherwise we will be trying to rebuild the golf holes and features as precisely as we can - I'm not going to try to redesign or improve the holes.
...

What will be the source of that precision?

I'm guessing this thread wouldn't be a bad place to start.  Peter has done some fine work.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65640.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65640.0.html)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Garland Bayley on July 29, 2020, 12:26:16 PM
...
Otherwise we will be trying to rebuild the golf holes and features as precisely as we can - I'm not going to try to redesign or improve the holes.
...

What will be the source of that precision?

I'm guessing this thread wouldn't be a bad place to start.  Peter has done some fine work.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65640.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65640.0.html)

Like everyone on this site doesn't know about that thread?  ::)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Kalen Braley on July 29, 2020, 12:58:50 PM
Perhaps, but you obviously didn't bother to read it then, because if you had you would know it contains a great deal of detailed and fairly precise information.



Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Garland Bayley on July 29, 2020, 02:14:50 PM
Perhaps, but you obviously didn't bother to read it then, because if you had you would know it contains a great deal of detailed and fairly precise information.

We've all read it.  ::)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Michael Moore on July 29, 2020, 02:47:57 PM
I heard they were doing it in a Thai swamp . . .
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Michael Blake on July 29, 2020, 03:31:00 PM
Perhaps, but you obviously didn't bother to read it then, because if you had you would know it contains a great deal of detailed and fairly precise information.

We've all read it.  ::)




I think it's time for another GRUDGE MATCH!  :)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Drew Harvie on July 29, 2020, 03:33:34 PM
Well, it wasn't out of the bag until that last post. It was simply rumor, wafting on the wind.


I had heard rumours for a year or so of similar nature, but didn't want to be the one to leak it  ;)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tim_Weiman on July 29, 2020, 03:36:25 PM
Well, it wasn't out of the bag until that last post. It was simply rumor, wafting on the wind.


Everything's a rumor until the money is committed, especially in the days of coronavirus, so there's not much reason to discuss it now.


And honestly there isn't much to discuss if it goes ahead, until it is ready to play.  The intent is to recreate the golf course as best we can.  The only changes will be to spread out the holes in spots for safety reasons, which might allow for a few extra tees.  Otherwise we will be trying to rebuild the golf holes and features as precisely as we can - I'm not going to try to redesign or improve the holes.


It's a separate project financed independently of Sand Valley, so the timing of the two are not related.  But my guess is that this will either get going soon, or not at all.  They are taking deposits for memberships and you can only hold onto that money for so long.
Tom,


Thanks for sharing what you could. Hope it happens for you.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jerry Kluger on July 29, 2020, 03:46:03 PM
I remember being at Bandon and Ran was there along with George Bahto as well as Tom Doak when they were opening Old Mac and how proud and excited George was to show Ran the course.  It makes me sad that George would not see any recreation of Lido as he was so close to the course and explained it in great depth in his book.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on July 29, 2020, 04:20:01 PM
I remember being at Bandon and Ran was there along with George Bahto as well as Tom Doak when they were opening Old Mac and how proud and excited George was to show Ran the course.  It makes me sad that George would not see any recreation of Lido as he was so close to the course and explained it in great depth in his book.


It's strange when you know that you are witnessing history.  That is a pretty cool memory. 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Adam Clayman on July 29, 2020, 05:40:14 PM
If MK is obsessed with Lido, we have Gib to thank. Thanks Gibby


But it does beg the question; Why hasn't he hired Jim Urbina to build a proper homage to his favorite dead guy, Alister MacKenzie?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Mark Hissey on August 02, 2020, 11:24:30 PM
Maybe Jim is waiting for something else?  :o
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: PPallotta on August 03, 2020, 01:18:43 AM
Like everyone else, I hope Tom and his team get to create the new Lido. But Lido is so iconic/mythic, so represents the very best of the golden age, and so exemplifies the principles and philosophies of great golf course architecture, that I can't help but wonder: where will/can we go from there? What will there be left to discuss (and debate) if/when the mythic becomes the real, and the exemplification is once again embodied? Will the new Lido be the exclamation point to this our 2nd golden age, or its epitaph? Will it be the final word, or instead a signpost to the future? Or neither? Or both?

Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on August 03, 2020, 07:29:17 AM
Like everyone else, I hope Tom and his team get to create the new Lido. But Lido is so iconic/mythic, so represents the very best of the golden age, and so exemplifies the principles and philosophies of great golf course architecture, that I can't help but wonder: where will/can we go from there? What will there be left to discuss (and debate) if/when the mythic becomes the real, and the exemplification is once again embodied? Will the new Lido be the exclamation point to this our 2nd golden age, or its epitaph? Will it be the final word, or instead a signpost to the future? Or neither? Or both?


Like many highly-ranked modern courses, the original Lido also benefited from an oceanfront site, and I wonder how much that had to do with its own high ranking.  This is one way to find out!


If I thought recreating it would end the quest of golf architecture, I would not go there.  But that's ridiculous.  There are lots of things still to be done, and I am working on a few of them concurrently, as I am sure others are, too.  Hopefully the Lido does not suck all the oxygen out of the room, as there will be lots of other courses to talk about, too.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Michael Whitaker on August 03, 2020, 11:37:52 AM
Iím sure this Golf Illustrated article by C.B. MacDonald describing Lido has already been posted somewhere, but it seems appropriate to include it here:


https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campuspress.yale.edu/dist/5/258/files/2015/04/Golf-Illustrated_1915_07_Macdonald-2ec6sp5.pdf (https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campuspress.yale.edu/dist/5/258/files/2015/04/Golf-Illustrated_1915_07_Macdonald-2ec6sp5.pdf)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 03, 2020, 11:41:26 AM
I'm a bit more in touch with the retail golfer than most of you. Nobody gives a shit about Lido. The name alone is reason to stay away.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Michael Whitaker on August 03, 2020, 11:43:58 AM
I'm a bit more in touch with the retail golfer than most of you. Nobody gives a shit about Lido. The name alone is reason to stay away.
John - this is not for the retail golfer. Itís intended to be a private club. Concept and pretense sells private memberships. You should have first hand knowledge of that.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 03, 2020, 11:48:49 AM
I'm a bit more in touch with the retail golfer than most of you. Nobody gives a shit about Lido. The name alone is reason to stay away.
John - this is not for the retail golfer. Itís intended to be a private club. Concept and pretense sells private memberships. You should have first hand knowledge of that.


Well you better put it on water with an infinite view because I don't want to have to explain to my guests why it's good.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Michael Whitaker on August 03, 2020, 11:51:24 AM
I'm a bit more in touch with the retail golfer than most of you. Nobody gives a shit about Lido. The name alone is reason to stay away.
John - this is not for the retail golfer. Itís intended to be a private club. Concept and pretense sells private memberships. You should have first hand knowledge of that.


Well you better put it on water with an infinite view because I don't want to have to explain to my guests why it's good.
So, youíre joining?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 03, 2020, 11:58:12 AM
Joining? My best plan is surviving.


There will be some world class opportunities in the upcoming years so I'm not going to say never. Maybe it's just cause of 2020 but this joiner would be happy to wave a lamp from the caboose of life.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Michael George on August 03, 2020, 01:08:18 PM
I have found that trying to replicate anything in golf (whether it be a golf course, a golf trip or otherwise)  is often not successful.  Here is hoping that the scope of the project changes and Tom can insert his creativity into the design to maximize the interest of the golf course.  I highly doubt that MacDonald would just recreate the Lido and not use any opportunities to better the course if alive today.  Further, John Kavanaugh is right.  The "retail golfer" does not care what the Lido was.  They just want a great golf course.  Why limit yourself?


Just look at Old Macdonald.  The 7th hole is one of the most unique and interesting holes on that golf course and it is the one hole that is void of a Macdonald template.



Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Bernie Bell on August 03, 2020, 01:23:03 PM
I have found that trying to replicate anything in golf (whether it be a golf course, a golf trip or otherwise)  is often not successful.  Here is hoping that the scope of the project changes and Tom can insert his creativity into the design to maximize the interest of the golf course.  I highly doubt that MacDonald would just recreate the Lido and not use any opportunities to better the course if alive today.  Further, John Kavanaugh is right.  The "retail golfer" does not care what the Lido was.  They just want a great golf course.  Why limit yourself?

Just look at Old Macdonald.  The 7th hole is one of the most unique and interesting holes on that golf course and it is the one hole that is void of a Macdonald template.

No template could get you up the hill to the best drink shack in golf. 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: PPallotta on August 03, 2020, 01:57:16 PM
On the other hand, maybe the average retail golfer likes and cares about exactly what he's told to like and care about -- that's why he's an average retail golfer. The story that can be told about the new Lido writes itself, especially in an era of 300 word articles that are barely disguised press releases.  Maybe when the time comes I'll ask Mr K if I can write the press release, free of charge. With his clout/reputation and my stellar writing abilities we'll be able to close the book on the 2nd golden age in a snap.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Kalen Braley on August 03, 2020, 03:02:48 PM
I'm guessing Mike perhaps sees a bit more risk in this project hence making it private.

ďThe mistake I made with The Dunes Club is that it isnít public,Ē Keiser says. ďIím definitely a public golf guy. Of course, had it been public, it wouldnít have made any money because itís only nine holes. But Iíve never wanted to have anything but public golf ever since. Thatís my mission.Ē

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on August 03, 2020, 04:03:04 PM
Just a few thoughts based on all the reading that I've done on it and the digital recreation efforts-

I don't really obsess about the Ocean much when I think about the original Lido.  It only came into play on one hole and even that was very temporary.  For most of its life, there was a boardwalk and a wall of cabanas blocking off the view of the Atlantic entirely from the course, yet it was still considered to be great.  The original 8th was visually glorious with the Ocean bordering it and that version will have to remain in golf heaven.  But the original 8th was a template after all and the Ocean part was just a bonus in the original version- atypical for a Biarritz.  It's not like we are underwhelmed when we step up to the 3rd tee at Chicago GC.  And who knows, maybe there will be a hazard there that will make it somewhere in between Chicago GC and the original.

On the other end of the property, you had the Channel.  Again, it only came into play on one hole and rarely at that.  There was a 10 yard buffer over the 3rd green to catch overplays and the hole was relatively long with a pitched Eden green.  On the 4th, the right fairway was not the common path and there was 30+ yards of sandy waste area before the water came into play (you had an entire fairway's width of buffer).  Up by the green, there was another 30 yard sandy buffer. 

The interior water hazard came into play much more frequently.  It came into play over the green on the 2nd, to the left on the 3rd, on the drive and 2nd shot on the 4th, over the green on the 11th, on the tee shot on the 12th, and over the green on the 16th since the ground chased down toward it over the green.  That interior hazard will obviously have to be reconstructed and should preserve the original challenges.

It's tempting to dwell on the negatives, so here are some positives to consider:
- the sandy wasteland of SV will be a fantastic substitute for the sandy wasteland around the perimeter of the Lido and in pockets on the interior.  The original course had more than 3,000 yards of that on the perimeter and it was mostly what was talked about in the writings.  The SV sand is not as soft as the Lido sand and should be slightly more recoverable.  I think that is a good thing.
- the wind patterns for Lido Beach and Sand Valley are almost identical in terms of prevailing winds and wind speeds.  That was the other thing most mentioned about the original- how the wind was the ever present defense.  Sand Valley averages 2 MPH more in wind than Lido Beach, which is very lucky. 
- The SV version will drain way better than the original because the original had a water table just below the surface.  The area to the East of the Lido was swampy and mosquitoes were supposedly horrible there.  In some of the photos, there is standing water in the bunkers.  SV drains incredibly well and always plays F&F.
- The SV version will have no road with heavy traffic bisecting it.  As I said earlier, this seemed to be the major reason that they didn't rebuild it on the original site and instead opted to build more to the East. 

But the biggest positive could be that it would exist vs not exist.  Lido was designed to be a strategic masterpiece with every hump, bump, and bunker purposefully placed.  That should remain no matter what the background looks like.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Mark Hissey on August 03, 2020, 08:54:39 PM
It is incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to find a site that compares to the original. Water on both sides, orientation, and dead flat so you could replicate the original. So, there will have to be compromises made in order to re-create it. The right acreage, with the right dimensions, and on a dead flat site would be needed to replicate The Lido properly. Unfortunately, making it land-locked is unavoidable.


I scouted numerous sites all over Long Island to find an appropriate site. I narrowed it down to Eisenhower Park, Bethpage, Heckscher Park, Kings Park Psychiatric Center, and Colonial Springs. Eisenhower might have worked, but the county ownership was an issue. There was another site that showed real promise, and still could.


My personal belief is that The Lido is important enough to recreate as identically as possible to the original. Montecassino, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour, the Amber Room, St Markís Campanile, Frauenkirche have all been rebuilt and the world is better for it. Iíd argue that The Lido deserves the same.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jerry Kluger on August 03, 2020, 09:54:18 PM
I just read again about Lido in George Bahto's book and I am not as enthusiastic as some with respect to recreating it.  First, it had the reputation of being a very hard golf course with provisions made for golfers of lesser abilities but that often circumvented the true strategy of the hole.  It is also noted that the sand in the area was not conducive to growing grass and the land was too low so they had to bring in an incredible amount of fill to bring it up and to have soil upon which you could grow grass.  The whole course was just the dream of a group of very wealthy men who wanted to build a toy for themselves while recognizing that the NGLA could never be equaled.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: CJames on August 04, 2020, 12:12:56 AM
Oceans are nice, but itís the wind, the ground, and the strategy that make a golf course.  If Lido was considered by no less an authority than Bernard Darwin to be in the very same class as NGLA and Pine Valley back when it was built in the Golden Age, why wouldnít those essentially identical 18 holes offer the same quality of superior golf today?  Particularly when you have Tom Doak and Peter Flory behind you?  There were a few voices of doubt and even cynicism here on the site back in 2013-14 when news of Sand Valley first hit GCA.com.  I again will readily cast my lot with the Keisers over the doubters here.  To paraphrase what a famous former Wisconsinite said to his doubters back in 1996: ďAll I can tell people that donít believe me is: Just bet against (them).Ē 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jerry Kluger on August 04, 2020, 07:48:44 AM
I want to be clear, I don't believe that I am in a position where my opinion regarding building Lido in Wisconsin is one to be seriously considered rather I was raising the basic question of why do it?  I know it would be a cool thing to do but what in particular is it about Lido that makes building it in Wisconsin the thing to do?  Bahto pointed out that the cape hole at Lido had no water but I believe TD did that at Old Mac.  I have been to Sand Valley and given the chance I would go back tomorrow - SV is a really good C & C course while Mammoth Dunes is right at the top of my list of courses which are the most fun to play.  Perhaps I should ask how this will be different from Old MacDonald at Bandon which has a great collection of CBM template holes.  Just being silly now but how about building a course after Royal Melbourne which is in a sand belt and most importantly most US golfers will never see in person. 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on August 04, 2020, 10:30:02 AM
From what I've heard it may be a bit of a real estate development. Good ol' fashioned selling lots to pay for the golf course. So, perhaps the course will be built more quickly depending on interest in joining/building at the club.


I thought Tom Doak's Sand Valley course was officially on hold due to the economy?


Both courses are on hold. Been hearing about Lido at SV for months.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Ira Fishman on August 04, 2020, 10:47:27 AM
Last night this thread got me to reading some older threads. I came across one about The Links Club on Long Island in which Tom Paul and some others offered entertainment and insight. I do wish some of the regular posters from those days who are still with us would come back to the site. As a relative newbie, I never got the full benefit from them. Selfish I know, but still would be great.


Ira
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: PCCraig on August 04, 2020, 10:52:43 AM
I'm guessing Mike perhaps sees a bit more risk in this project hence making it private.

ďThe mistake I made with The Dunes Club is that it isnít public,Ē Keiser says. ďIím definitely a public golf guy. Of course, had it been public, it wouldnít have made any money because itís only nine holes. But Iíve never wanted to have anything but public golf ever since. Thatís my mission.Ē

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works)


Well - in listening to one of the GCA podcasts...maybe the Yolk with Doak, they mention that MK was going to make the Sheep Ranch private, but then he started hearing (and enjoying) all the headlines that he was receiving for being the savior of public golf.


To be fair for a "public golf guy" MK belongs to what, a dozen exclusive private clubs? ::)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tim Martin on August 04, 2020, 11:08:50 AM
I'm guessing Mike perhaps sees a bit more risk in this project hence making it private.

ďThe mistake I made with The Dunes Club is that it isnít public,Ē Keiser says. ďIím definitely a public golf guy. Of course, had it been public, it wouldnít have made any money because itís only nine holes. But Iíve never wanted to have anything but public golf ever since. Thatís my mission.Ē

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works)





To be fair for a "public golf guy" MK belongs to what, a dozen exclusive private clubs? ::)


Pat-Does that in any way diminish his contribution to the modern golf landscape?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: George Myers on August 04, 2020, 12:35:44 PM
I'm a bit more in touch with the retail golfer than most of you. Nobody gives a shit about Lido. The name alone is reason to stay away.


70's rock song?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: PCCraig on August 04, 2020, 12:47:39 PM
I'm guessing Mike perhaps sees a bit more risk in this project hence making it private.

ďThe mistake I made with The Dunes Club is that it isnít public,Ē Keiser says. ďIím definitely a public golf guy. Of course, had it been public, it wouldnít have made any money because itís only nine holes. But Iíve never wanted to have anything but public golf ever since. Thatís my mission.Ē

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works)





To be fair for a "public golf guy" MK belongs to what, a dozen exclusive private clubs? ::)


Pat-Does that in any way diminish his contribution to the modern golf landscape?


No - but it makes me roll my eyes when guys when the PR machine turns out article after article on how he's saving public golf...one $300 five-hour round at a time. It's a successful business model, and all power to him, but calling himself a "public golf guy" as if he is going around saving small town Muni's is appropriate either.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on August 04, 2020, 01:29:01 PM
I want to be clear, I don't believe that I am in a position where my opinion regarding building Lido in Wisconsin is one to be seriously considered rather I was raising the basic question of why do it?  I know it would be a cool thing to do but what in particular is it about Lido that makes building it in Wisconsin the thing to do? 


 Just being silly now but how about building a course after Royal Melbourne which is in a sand belt and most importantly most US golfers will never see in person.


Well, Lido has been gone for 75 years, and people are still interested in it, so that's why it's of interest to developers.  Several, apparently!


Royal Melbourne, though, is still there, albeit a long flight away, and they wouldn't let you in the country right now.  Still, I would never think of copying an existing course like that [and ESPECIALLY NOT one where I consult  :o ].


Many years ago it was suggested that the Japanese were building a replica of The Old Course at St. Andrews -- they named the course New St. Andrews, but it was not built to resemble the Old Course.  If you were going to copy a course, that would be the obvious choice, but building it without the town would probably disappoint.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tim_Weiman on August 04, 2020, 02:02:39 PM
Just a few thoughts based on all the reading that I've done on it and the digital recreation efforts-

I don't really obsess about the Ocean much when I think about the original Lido.  It only came into play on one hole and even that was very temporary.  For most of its life, there was a boardwalk and a wall of cabanas blocking off the view of the Atlantic entirely from the course, yet it was still considered to be great.  The original 8th was visually glorious with the Ocean bordering it and that version will have to remain in golf heaven.  But the original 8th was a template after all and the Ocean part was just a bonus in the original version- atypical for a Biarritz.  It's not like we are underwhelmed when we step up to the 3rd tee at Chicago GC.  And who knows, maybe there will be a hazard there that will make it somewhere in between Chicago GC and the original.

On the other end of the property, you had the Channel.  Again, it only came into play on one hole and rarely at that.  There was a 10 yard buffer over the 3rd green to catch overplays and the hole was relatively long with a pitched Eden green.  On the 4th, the right fairway was not the common path and there was 30+ yards of sandy waste area before the water came into play (you had an entire fairway's width of buffer).  Up by the green, there was another 30 yard sandy buffer. 

The interior water hazard came into play much more frequently.  It came into play over the green on the 2nd, to the left on the 3rd, on the drive and 2nd shot on the 4th, over the green on the 11th, on the tee shot on the 12th, and over the green on the 16th since the ground chased down toward it over the green.  That interior hazard will obviously have to be reconstructed and should preserve the original challenges.

It's tempting to dwell on the negatives, so here are some positives to consider:
- the sandy wasteland of SV will be a fantastic substitute for the sandy wasteland around the perimeter of the Lido and in pockets on the interior.  The original course had more than 3,000 yards of that on the perimeter and it was mostly what was talked about in the writings.  The SV sand is not as soft as the Lido sand and should be slightly more recoverable.  I think that is a good thing.
- the wind patterns for Lido Beach and Sand Valley are almost identical in terms of prevailing winds and wind speeds.  That was the other thing most mentioned about the original- how the wind was the ever present defense.  Sand Valley averages 2 MPH more in wind than Lido Beach, which is very lucky. 
- The SV version will drain way better than the original because the original had a water table just below the surface.  The area to the East of the Lido was swampy and mosquitoes were supposedly horrible there.  In some of the photos, there is standing water in the bunkers.  SV drains incredibly well and always plays F&F.
- The SV version will have no road with heavy traffic bisecting it.  As I said earlier, this seemed to be the major reason that they didn't rebuild it on the original site and instead opted to build more to the East. 

But the biggest positive could be that it would exist vs not exist.  Lido was designed to be a strategic masterpiece with every hump, bump, and bunker purposefully placed.  That should remain no matter what the background looks like.
Peter,


Thanks for posting your perspective with so many details.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tim_Weiman on August 04, 2020, 02:06:54 PM
I want to be clear, I don't believe that I am in a position where my opinion regarding building Lido in Wisconsin is one to be seriously considered rather I was raising the basic question of why do it?  I know it would be a cool thing to do but what in particular is it about Lido that makes building it in Wisconsin the thing to do?  Bahto pointed out that the cape hole at Lido had no water but I believe TD did that at Old Mac.  I have been to Sand Valley and given the chance I would go back tomorrow - SV is a really good C & C course while Mammoth Dunes is right at the top of my list of courses which are the most fun to play.  Perhaps I should ask how this will be different from Old MacDonald at Bandon which has a great collection of CBM template holes.  Just being silly now but how about building a course after Royal Melbourne which is in a sand belt and most importantly most US golfers will never see in person.


Jerry,


Royal Melbourne would certainly be a leading candidate for me for ďif you could only play one golf courseĒ. So, yeah. Not silly. It would be great to see a replica here in the US.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Kalen Braley on August 04, 2020, 02:27:56 PM
Just being silly now but how about building a course after Royal Melbourne which is in a sand belt and most importantly most US golfers will never see in person.

Jerry,

Not to be cynical, but regardless if they build RM, Lido, or anything else, if its private, most US golfers still won't see it.  They would have a better chance of flying to Australia and playing the original RM with their "member for a day" policy...
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 04, 2020, 02:34:59 PM
Most US golfers have not seen Bandon.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tim_Weiman on August 04, 2020, 02:40:26 PM
Most US golfers have not seen Bandon.
John,


Most golfers havenít seen any of the great courses!




Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 04, 2020, 02:50:00 PM
If Lido does turn out to be private I guarantee you that the guest fees will be lower than if it was public.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Kalen Braley on August 04, 2020, 02:50:22 PM
Most US golfers have not seen Bandon.


That's certainly true John, but the number that has seen Bandon vs an exclusive private would still be orders of magnitudes larger, say 1% vs less than .01%.

For that matter, I suppose there isn't a golf course in the world that comes anywhere near the standard of most having seen and played it.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Sayegh on August 04, 2020, 03:00:19 PM
Tom Doak,Is it the course itself or the challenge of replicating it that is attractive?

Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: JC Jones on August 04, 2020, 03:16:38 PM
From what I've heard it may be a bit of a real estate development. Good ol' fashioned selling lots to pay for the golf course. So, perhaps the course will be built more quickly depending on interest in joining/building at the club.


I thought Tom Doak's Sand Valley course was officially on hold due to the economy?


Both courses are on hold. Been hearing about Lido at SV for months.


That's not true.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Joe Zucker on August 04, 2020, 03:21:41 PM
The number of golfers I have met who have never even heard of Bandon Dunes always amazes me.  Even living in Seattle, it seemed like 50% of the people I was randomly paired with had not heard of the best resort in the world 7 hours south.  It was always a good reminder of how different my golf reality is from the average player.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Ira Fishman on August 04, 2020, 04:11:32 PM
The number of golfers I have met who have never even heard of Bandon Dunes always amazes me.  Even living in Seattle, it seemed like 50% of the people I was randomly paired with had not heard of the best resort in the world 7 hours south.  It was always a good reminder of how different my golf reality is from the average player.


People play golf for all sorts of reasons. It is challenging, a diversion, time outdoors,  prelude to a beer, good way to hang out with friends, a philosophical journey, etc. The number of people who care about golf course architecture is quite small which probably makes us both elitists and nerds. Ran set (but probably never enforced) registrations at 1750 people. That strikes me as a high number actually.


Ira
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Garland Bayley on August 04, 2020, 05:10:33 PM
... Bahto pointed out that the cape hole at Lido had no water but I believe TD did that at Old Mac. ...
??? No water at Old Mac.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Mark Pritchett on August 05, 2020, 12:57:05 PM
Hope this happens, would be a great addition to Wisconsin golf. 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on August 05, 2020, 01:54:01 PM
Tom Doak,Is it the course itself or the challenge of replicating it that is attractive?


The latter.  Plus, it's something that has been talked about for 20+ years and hasn't been done yet,* so it would be great to get it crossed off my list of things to do.


* And yes, I know Gil Hanse is supposedly building an homage to the Lido in Thailand, but since the footprint is very different, I don't see how that counts as a recreation.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Carl Nichols on August 05, 2020, 06:14:36 PM
... Bahto pointed out that the cape hole at Lido had no water but I believe TD did that at Old Mac. ...
??? No water at Old Mac.


.....Bahto pointed out that the cape hole at Lido had no water but I believe TD did that--build a cape hold without water--at Old Mac.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Morgan Clawson on January 18, 2021, 11:36:13 AM
Sand Valley just officially announced construction of THE LIDO.

http://thelido.com (http://thelido.com)

Congrats to all involved!


Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Andy Ryall on January 18, 2021, 11:38:42 AM
Importantly, they are adopting the UK model of allowing outside play for Sun Pm through Thursdays, though I believe you have to be a guest at SV.  Property will be north across the main road from the rest of the current SV footprint.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Michael Wolf on January 18, 2021, 12:44:11 PM
Just listened to the Fried Egg pod with Tom discussing the project. I'm not seeing the value in making the effort to recreate original ground contours down to a foot or two when it's already known that for safety reasons the routing will need to be different than the original? Especially when nobody has played the original.


Unless it's just what the guy writing the checks wants?


Re: the private but also unaccompanieds business model - anyone have any insight how this is achievable in relation to the "15% non profit revenue" rule I've often seen quoted? My only thought was if the Lido greens fee is a token amount, but access contingent on a larger spend at the SV resort?


Thanks,
Michael




Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Mark Fedeli on January 18, 2021, 12:50:53 PM
Just listened to the Fried Egg pod with Tom discussing the project. I'm not seeing the value in making the effort to recreate original ground contours down to a foot or two when it's already known that for safety reasons the routing will need to be different than the original? Especially when nobody has played the original.


Unless it's just what the guy writing the checks wants?



Michael,


What would be the point of doing it if not to try to recreate it as closely as possible? Having the holes spaced a bit differently for modern safety reasons certainly isn't the same as changing features on the holes themselves.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Thomas Dai on January 18, 2021, 12:56:36 PM
Congratulations to Tom and all involved at Renaissance plus of course Peter Flory. Peterís work as highlighted on this thread is amazing - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65640.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65640.0.html)
Atb
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Michael Wolf on January 18, 2021, 01:07:49 PM
Mark,


I'm think of the process of restoring a classic car as a comparison. If I was going to restore an old Ferrari to use solely as a show car, then I might want every single last part to be original.


But if I knew before I began that I wanted to drive my old Ferrari, and therefore I'd need modern brakes and seatbelts, well then I'd probably just focus on restoring the cars body, engine and interior as close to original as possible, but not worry about every last screw or washer.


Curious what the comparative cost of a 99.9% Lido recreation would be vs a 90% or 95%? For a car it might be double.


Hope that makes it clearer.
Michael
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Kalen Braley on January 18, 2021, 01:21:07 PM
Given they are presumably working from a blank slate, seems you could still recreate the ground features to within a few feet for each hole...AND...have the holes spaced apart enough for safety reasons.

Unless one of the goals of restoration is to also re-create the feeling of "I dare you to hit this tee shot" knowing you could get a hot chili pepper up your backside from the adjoining hole.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Mark Fedeli on January 18, 2021, 01:41:33 PM
Mark,


I'm think of the process of restoring a classic car as a comparison. If I was going to restore an old Ferrari to use solely as a show car, then I might want every single last part to be original.


But if I knew before I began that I wanted to drive my old Ferrari, and therefore I'd need modern brakes and seatbelts, well then I'd probably just focus on restoring the cars body, engine and interior as close to original as possible, but not worry about every last screw or washer.


Curious what the comparative cost of a 99.9% Lido recreation would be vs a 90% or 95%? For a car it might be double.


Hope that makes it clearer.
Michael


That certainly makes sense. To your last question, I'd ask in reply: how much luster and romance and appeal does the new Lido lose for every percentage point it's forced to admit it is different from the original? Because the course is a legend, because it's been gone for so long, and especially because it was fully engineered from scratch, not found on the ground over centuries, I think you have to get as close to 100% as is reasonably possible, just from a hype and marketing standpoint alone.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: PPallotta on January 18, 2021, 01:47:34 PM
Tom and his team certainly won't be using magic to make the new Lido, but they will be using its 21st century equivalent, ie technology, of all kinds (including that which Peter F used to 'model' the course); and, while TD won't be drawing on his own imagination to design this course, he will have a very clear 'vision from the past' that he'll try to re-create as closely and in as much detail as possible. Which is to say, the new Lido -- both in the process of making it and as a finished golf course, open for play -- seems to me as close to an exercise in & example of 'pure design' as I can think of. It'll be interesting to see how golfers respond to it, and how much they will appreciate it (in the broadest sense of that word).
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 18, 2021, 01:59:00 PM
Because the course is a legend, because it's been gone for so long, and especially because it was fully engineered from scratch, not found on the ground over centuries, I think you have to get as close to 100% as is reasonably possible, just from a hype and marketing standpoint alone.


Well, ignoring the "hype and marketing standpoint" completely, I just wouldn't sign up for using the name "Lido" unless I was going to be faithful to the Lido, just like Michael couldn't call his car a '66 Mustang if he changed it very much.



But I am obliged to be sure the brakes work!
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Carl Rogers on January 18, 2021, 02:41:52 PM
A Midwest Mashie site?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Rob Rigg on January 18, 2021, 10:46:06 PM
This is exciting news for anyone who has always wondered what it would be like to see the magical Lido - aka - lost atlantis of US GCA - in person so I'm glad that the Keiser bros and Mr Doak are planning on recreating it as closely as possible.

Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.
The only, "meh," element for me is that new courses are rarely getting constructed in the US and so much of what we are seeing in architecture these days is "template, template, template." Although, to be fair, much of it is restoration work at golden age courses.
That being said, the addition of the Lido should make SV a legit competitor to Bandon as numero uno golf resort in the country. Amazing variety of architectural experiences when all 4 courses are done.
Congrats to everyone involved in bringing the Lido to life!
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: William_G on January 19, 2021, 09:04:51 AM

That being said, the addition of the Lido should make SV a legit competitor to Bandon as numero uno golf resort in the country.


at least from May to October, LOL
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Adam G on January 19, 2021, 01:06:28 PM
Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.


According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 19, 2021, 01:20:49 PM
Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.


According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."


I doubt Geoff knows more about it than I do.  There is no timetable for it, but it is not dead.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Morgan Clawson on January 19, 2021, 02:26:59 PM
Nice Lido story by Garrett Morrison on The Fried Egg website:

http://https://thefriedegg.com/lido-in-wisconsin-sand-valley-michael-keiser-tom-doak-restoration/ (http://https://thefriedegg.com/lido-in-wisconsin-sand-valley-michael-keiser-tom-doak-restoration/)



Also, great podcast that dropped today with Andy Johnson of The Fried Egg with Tom Doak:

Yolk with Doak, Episode 28:  The Lido Club


Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Adam G on January 19, 2021, 03:13:52 PM

According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."


I doubt Geoff knows more about it than I do.  There is no timetable for it, but it is not dead.


I agree. Glad it's not dead!
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Pat Burke on January 19, 2021, 03:56:24 PM
Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.


According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."


I doubt Geoff knows more about it than I do.  There is no timetable for it, but it is not dead.


Geoff likely believes he does
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: John_Cullum on January 19, 2021, 06:13:48 PM
Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.


According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."


I doubt Geoff knows more about it than I do.  There is no timetable for it, but it is not dead.


Geoff likely believes he does


Audible chuckle
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on January 19, 2021, 06:55:48 PM
--
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on January 19, 2021, 06:58:00 PM
I viewed the Lido as a template course before really getting to know it, but don't view it that way now and would never describe it to anyone as that.

Just as an example, the 1st hole- called "First" on the card.  Very unique and dramatic fairway contouring- I don't know where CBM got his inspiration for the fairway dynamics, but he did a great job creating something that looks like it was laid over pure linksland here- especially the first half of the fairway.  It's so quirky and specific- i.e. not geometric or just randomly sprinkled undulations, but choreographed ones meant to mimic nature.  And what you see in the ground was almost identical to the plan... amazingly.  Imagine being out there with horses and forms in basically quicksand and trying to shape this.  Per written accounts, the sea of sand to the right and the lack of any trees was a shock to the senses for American golfers and like nothing they had ever encountered.  They were standing on the Moon basically. 

Calling this a template is like calling Jimmie Hendrix's All Along the Watchtower a cover. 
(https://i.imgur.com/38oMCjXh.jpg)

The 2nd is another good example.  It is epic off the tee.  Blind tee shot over a huge waste area and a raised ridge with a speed slot dynamic to the right.  "With a head wind to face, this carry becomes a fearsome thing."  While it is a double plateau green, CBM mentions that the exact design of the green was taken from one of the 80 contest entries (not a pre-existing golf hole).  And if you look at the plans, this is unlike any other green you've seen in your life. 

And by the time that we get to the 4th hole, CBM has lit his guitar on fire and is soloing on it with his teeth!  But it is only one of several grand finales. 

How I categorize the holes at this point:

A) Recognizable template holes:
3, 8, 10, 13, 14, and 16.  Note that this contains all of the par 3s.  And I'd argue that these all have twists that make them either unique or just excellent in relation to others in their template category.  The water behind 16 with the tight grass runoff for example.  The 8th needs no explanation- inspired not derivative.  Was called "Ocean" on the card.   

B) Original holes:
4, 6, 11, 15, and 18.  Note that on 4, CBM didn't copy Littlestone, but created a hole that was based on what he thought Littlestone could have done with their hole if they would have opened their eyes to it- his imagination running wild and tapping into the reference library in his head.  11 was made up by CBM and is wild as hell- my underrated favorite.  The rest were contest entries.  He was crowd sourcing about 100 years ahead of the trend.   This group includes 2 of the most famous holes in history from two of the best architects.  This crowdsourcing added diversity to the course and his placing of them and editing them made them fit in cohesively. 

C) Templates by name only-
1, 2, 5, 7, 9, 12, and 17.  variations so unformulaic that they should be considered to be unique holes.  If they have template characteristics, it may only be one aspect, like the green on 12 or the length of 17.  What is another hole that is similar to the 12th at the Lido, aside from the green?  It has the tee shot of 18th at Sawgrass with an uphill approach blind and over a nasty set of cross bunkers with a green surrounded by waste area.  The approach was meant to be played with a 1-iron!  And CBM calls the 17th a composite hole, which meant that he was combining several sources of inspiration.

I don't want to tell you what to think, but just wanted to share how my own thinking changed over the last few years and why I believe that the holes here are in a very different category than later template holes, which become more standardized and geometric.  The wild grounds of the CBM Lido vs the manicured grounds of later Raynors is another aspect that made Lido seem organic from the ground level.  When I read first hand accounts of the course and matches there, "fog of war" comes to my mind.  Hopefully we'll all find that out what that feels like when we play it.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 19, 2021, 08:04:45 PM
Peter-

Your last post stirred a few thoughts on the concept of MacDonald's templates, namely the mistaken notion that he was "copying" the famous holes from abroad in his composition of an ideal course.

In fact, CBM clearly let us know that many of his ideal holes were not copies, but rather in some cases borrowed only certain concepts from parts of those famous holes or were merely inspired by those holes (i.e. the Biarritz, whose inspiration was a par 4).  My read of what you wrote is that you are comparing the holes at Lido against the other versions of those holes found elsewhere.  In my mind, the comparison should be made to what he wrote about his "Ideal Course" in the Jan. 1907 Golfers Magazine article where these concepts were first set forth.

When he discussed the concept behind the 4th at Lido in 1907, his ideal hole was "suggested" by the 16th at Littlestone.  This idea of creating "a hole that was based on what he thought Littlestone could have done with their hole if they would have opened their eyes to it" is what he did with many of the ideal holes.

Perhaps instead of the word "template" it would make more sense to use the word "guide" or something else that captured the abstract nature of his ideal course.  It was more about the shots that were being asked of or offered to the player than any strict adherence to presubscribed notions of what each hole on the ideal course should look like.

That being said, Lido did incorporate a number of new concepts that were outside of the general framework he laid down  in 1907.  But I think the Lido needs to be looked at with the ghost of NGLA lurking the background.   The Lido had to have something that made it different from its Long Island rival.  It was to be a bigger and bolder version of NGLA, one that would present the best test of links golf in America.  And it was the perfect opportunity to try a few new concepts.  The 18th and any other concepts taken from the prize contest are examples of this.

Sven

Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Rob Rigg on January 19, 2021, 08:57:48 PM
Wondering how much this will delay construction of the Doak course at SV? This sporty heathland'esque course seems equally intriguing to me as it's a new concept in the US.


According to Geoff Shackelford today, Sedge Valley has been "abandoned."


I doubt Geoff knows more about it than I do.  There is no timetable for it, but it is not dead.
That's great to hear!
And Will G - Indeed! Living in PDX and having BDGR 4 hours away and playable year round (especially during "deal season") makes it one of my favorite places on the planet.

The diversity of the four courses at SV would encourage me to travel there in a way that only the two courses on site makes it a bit harder to justify.

Peter - Thanks so much for your amazing work on the Lido and thoughts on the term template and their use versus reality at this course. Sven's "guide" suggestion is both interesting and compelling and would be part of my marketing story for sure.

It sounds like the Lido was very much CBM in a heightened state of creativity with a canvas where he essentially had carte blanche to amplify templates as he saw fit or augment, or even abandon them, if that would maximize the design. Sort of a "CBM Dream 18" - Can't wait to play it!
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 19, 2021, 09:33:22 PM
Rob:


Even in 1907 CBM was building in the latitude that gets to the points made by Peter in his post.


Here is the lead-in to the section in that article that lays out the 18 holes:


"...following are eighteen holes which occur to me as being about right.  Of course, the reader must assume that the run of the ground and the hazards are correct."


He then proceeds to describe those 18 holes, using words like "similar to," "composite of," "resembling," "suggested by," and "like." 


Just after the list, he says this:  "I have notes of many holes equally as good as a number of the above, but this list will convey to the mind of the reader a fair idea of what I have gleaned during the last few months as constituting a perfect length of hole consistent with variety."


The whole article reads very much like the establishment of a very general framework, with that underlying principal of variety being at its core. 


Sven
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on January 19, 2021, 10:03:13 PM

Template courses have a pretty specific stereotype in a lot of people's minds and I think it is due to the stylized sub-genre that resulted from many iterations of self-referencing: geometric shapes, very predictable and tidy bunkering in the classical spots, very clear strategies to solve the hole, etc.  And I think that stereotype is what a lot of people roll their eyes over and rebel against.

So when someone says that the Lido is a template course, they think about the regimented and formulaic templates.

And that is my big point here, I think that they will be pleasantly surprised when they see how wild and imaginative it really was.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 19, 2021, 10:19:27 PM

Template courses have a pretty specific stereotype in a lot of people's minds and I think it is due to the stylized sub-genre that resulted from many iterations of self-referencing: geometric shapes, very predictable and tidy bunkering in the classical spots, very clear strategies to solve the hole, etc.  And I think that stereotype is what a lot of people roll their eyes over and rebel against.

So when someone says that the Lido is a template course, they think about the regimented and formulaic templates.



That stereotype is because those people have been told that CBM and Raynor always built the same holes.  There is no understanding of the nuances involved with adapting those holes to specific sites, or fitting a course on a certain piece of land so that the natural features were best utilized in a way that was coherent with CBM's ideals.

But mostly it is because they misunderstand the difference between borrowing and copying.

You are starting to understand the difference.

Sven
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: PPallotta on January 19, 2021, 11:20:20 PM
Sven earlier suggested the term 'guide', and that seems fine; but I've always tended to use, rightly or wrongly, the term 'principles', ie that CBM meant to highlight great & enduring architectural principles from his study of overseas courses, and then replicate and/or adapt them on the holes and courses he was building here -- such that for him an 'ideal course' made manifest as many as those great architectural principles as possible, across short, medium, and long holes and on Par 3s, 4s and 5s.
That's the background to my earlier post, ie my sense of this Lido re-creation as an exercise in 'pure design': it's those principles that Tom and his team will be bringing back to life, if possible 'to the inch' as it were, and not Tom's own vision/creativity.

Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Brett Wiesley on January 19, 2021, 11:29:39 PM
Congratulations to Tom and his team.  Getting a go at the Lido is an amazing opportunity.  I hope in the future your other project at Sand Valley comes to fruition as the concept seemed worthy of your time.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jeff Schley on January 20, 2021, 12:43:43 AM
The entire SV project is a boon for a very neglected area in Wisconsin employment wise. It is in the middle of darn near nowhere and kudos to the Keiser's for their development which just keeps getting better. 2 great courses and the Sandbox now, the Lido course and Sedge Valley coming soon it is a tremendous project for golfers and the local community as well. They have the grass tennis courts, high end on site lodging and private lots available. They will continue to vertically integrate to make it almost an all inclusive experience.

Makes me wonder could Sand Hills have done the same type of model? I guess you could say Dismal River did it and has saturated the area. However, if SH built a couple more courses that were public and amenities would it have the same success as SV? The ground there supposedly has enough green sites for as many courses as developers want to put he money up for.

Remoteness is the biggest factor and proximity to DR.
EDIT: BTW didn't realize SV is now open year round. Good article here explaining the rationale.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/seasonal-resorts-open-year-round/2021/01/14/5b1bac0a-4b90-11eb-839a-cf4ba7b7c48c_story.html
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Bill Brightly on January 20, 2021, 08:04:42 AM
The Fried Egg episode that Morgan mentioned is fascinating, definitely worth a listen: Yolk with Doak episode 28

Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 20, 2021, 10:01:45 AM
Makes me wonder could Sand Hills have done the same type of model? I guess you could say Dismal River did it and has saturated the area. However, if SH built a couple more courses that were public and amenities would it have the same success as SV? The ground there supposedly has enough green sites for as many courses as developers want to put he money up for.



Jeff:


Golf in the Nebraska sand hills is a marginal business proposition.  The season is very short, and hardly any customers live within 3-4 hours, so you can't efficiently take advantage of the nice days when they come in the iffy months.


Mr. Youngscap could easily build more courses on his land, or probably buy Dismal River for pennies on the dollar if he wanted to, but I don't think he believes he could make enough money to justify the risk, and I tend to agree.  I would love to build more courses out there, but if you can't piggyback off the infrastructure at one of the existing courses, there's no way it makes sense.

Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Don Mahaffey on January 23, 2021, 10:02:16 AM
Seems like we have the 2021 version of the Lido contest with this course in WI being built and the course in Thailand.  I wonder what they would be called if the Lido name had been protected in some way.


This entire process of basically producing a "cover" is fascinating to me, especially when the course no longer exists and hasn't for decades.


Will raters judge the two courses by which is the more exacting copy? And if so, what basis will they use to determine which is more accurate? Or, are they to be viewed as interpretations of the original but riffed on by each team to produce something that is a combo of the original and the current design team's ideas?


To me it feels a little like if John Mayer were to produce a cover of Eddie Van Halen's Eruption. The music will always be Van Halen's but Mayer would surly rif on the notes and not attempt to copy exactly.  Because he can't recreate EVH's exact movements and timing.


So while I look forward to seeing both new Lido's, and the one in WI will be a must visit, I'm most interested on how the teams interpreted the data they were able to collect, and then added their own notes...especially since I cant see, touch, or even review a 1' topo of the original. It'll be interesting to learn how they mapped the original.


PS, Lido has always felt like a "theme" to me, I know it was real, but it seems like something magical and part of that magic was the Lido contest and how some of those entries were used to design the course. If these covers are to be authentic to that Lido theme, I think they should have brought that aspect back too. There have been some very good Lido entries over the years and it would have been cool to see some used.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tim Martin on January 23, 2021, 10:25:28 AM
Seems like we have the 2021 version of the Lido contest with this course in WI being built and the course in Thailand.  I wonder what they would be called if the Lido name had been protected in some way.


This entire process of basically producing a "cover" is fascinating to me, especially when the course no longer exists and hasn't for decades.


Will raters judge the two courses by which is the more exacting copy? And if so, what basis will they use to determine which is more accurate? Or, are they to be viewed as interpretations of the original but riffed on by each team to produce something that is a combo of the original and the current design team's ideas?


To me it feels a little like if John Mayer were to produce a cover of Eddie Van Halen's Eruption. The music will always be Van Halen's but Mayer would surly rif on the notes and not attempt to copy exactly.  Because he can't recreate EVH's exact movements and timing.


So while I look forward to seeing both new Lido's, and the one in WI will be a must visit, I'm most interested on how the teams interpreted the data they were able to collect, and then added their own notes...especially since I cant see, touch, or even review a 1' topo of the original. It'll be interesting to learn how they mapped the original.


PS, Lido has always felt like a "theme" to me, I know it was real, but it seems like something magical and part of that magic was the Lido contest and how some of those entries were used to design the course. If these covers are to be authentic to that Lido theme, I think they should have brought that aspect back too. There have been some very good Lido entries over the years and it would have been cool to see some used.


Don-I donít think the list of people that see both will be very big. Unless you live in Asia how many will travel to Thailand for golf from U.S./Western Europe?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Ira Fishman on January 23, 2021, 10:54:25 AM
Seems like we have the 2021 version of the Lido contest with this course in WI being built and the course in Thailand.  I wonder what they would be called if the Lido name had been protected in some way.


This entire process of basically producing a "cover" is fascinating to me, especially when the course no longer exists and hasn't for decades.


Will raters judge the two courses by which is the more exacting copy? And if so, what basis will they use to determine which is more accurate? Or, are they to be viewed as interpretations of the original but riffed on by each team to produce something that is a combo of the original and the current design team's ideas?


To me it feels a little like if John Mayer were to produce a cover of Eddie Van Halen's Eruption. The music will always be Van Halen's but Mayer would surly rif on the notes and not attempt to copy exactly.  Because he can't recreate EVH's exact movements and timing.


So while I look forward to seeing both new Lido's, and the one in WI will be a must visit, I'm most interested on how the teams interpreted the data they were able to collect, and then added their own notes...especially since I cant see, touch, or even review a 1' topo of the original. It'll be interesting to learn how they mapped the original.


PS, Lido has always felt like a "theme" to me, I know it was real, but it seems like something magical and part of that magic was the Lido contest and how some of those entries were used to design the course. If these covers are to be authentic to that Lido theme, I think they should have brought that aspect back too. There have been some very good Lido entries over the years and it would have been cool to see some used.


Don,


It is a fascinating question. My guess is that it may depend on how much leeway the developers give the architect. I doubt either of the architects are going to be allowed to be Jimi Hendrix covering either the Star Spangled Banner or All Along the Watchtower.


Ira
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 23, 2021, 11:26:20 AM
Seems like we have the 2021 version of the Lido contest with this course in WI being built and the course in Thailand.  I wonder what they would be called if the Lido name had been protected in some way.


This entire process of basically producing a "cover" is fascinating to me, especially when the course no longer exists and hasn't for decades.


Will raters judge the two courses by which is the more exacting copy? And if so, what basis will they use to determine which is more accurate? Or, are they to be viewed as interpretations of the original but riffed on by each team to produce something that is a combo of the original and the current design team's ideas?


To me it feels a little like if John Mayer were to produce a cover of Eddie Van Halen's Eruption. The music will always be Van Halen's but Mayer would surly rif on the notes and not attempt to copy exactly.  Because he can't recreate EVH's exact movements and timing.


So while I look forward to seeing both new Lido's, and the one in WI will be a must visit, I'm most interested on how the teams interpreted the data they were able to collect, and then added their own notes...especially since I cant see, touch, or even review a 1' topo of the original. It'll be interesting to learn how they mapped the original.


PS, Lido has always felt like a "theme" to me, I know it was real, but it seems like something magical and part of that magic was the Lido contest and how some of those entries were used to design the course. If these covers are to be authentic to that Lido theme, I think they should have brought that aspect back too. There have been some very good Lido entries over the years and it would have been cool to see some used.




Don:  I get that some people will dismiss this course as a "cover" but the analogy isn't quite right, because nobody can listen to the original music anymore.  I wouldn't be doing this if the original golf course was still around.


I can't have been clearer in what I've said about the project that our goal is to reproduce the original course as best we can and NOT to add our own notes.  I am treating it like a restoration, albeit a restoration that requires a lot more work than usual.  I've done my riff on Macdonald -- here, instead, we are trying to build what Macdonald once built.  That's the only way I would use the name Lido for what we are doing.  [If they were actually doing that in Thailand, I probably wouldn't be doing it in Wisconsin, but if you look at the plan for Ballyshear you can see right away it's not that.]


Also, though it may be a weird distinction for some, we are not copying a piece of God-given terrain.  Macdonald's Lido was built from scratch, just like our version of it will be.


The interesting aspect of the course, for me, is that I'm already getting calls about "why don't you do your own ideal course from scratch?".  If we can pull off the Lido to my satisfaction, I might just try it.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Lou_Duran on January 23, 2021, 12:26:49 PM
Since we're on this music/guitar kick, how about a tribute course to MacKenzie next door to the new Lido.  Since land costs would be nil, maybe it would be feasible for Mike DeVries to dust off his plans and build El Boqueron.   And like the first two Streamsong golf courses, all sorts of synergies might be possible.   Maybe two courses for the price of 1.5? 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Dan_Callahan on January 23, 2021, 12:50:23 PM
How many architects, other than Mike Strantz, have the guts to build a course from scratch on a mostly featureless site and create non-traditional holes? Fazio started with nothing at Shadow Creek, but it looks like a typical, manicured, ďfair,Ē Fazio course. 

Pete Dye at Sawgrass or Whistling Straights maybe? With a few holes anyway.

But if an architect could shape 18 holes however he wanted, how many would chose to build blind shots? Seems to me most would just come up with a really nice, eminently fair and playable design.

Which I think is why I like Strantz so much. He chose to create/add the problems/quirk that make a course like North Berwick so memorable.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 23, 2021, 01:05:27 PM

The interesting aspect of the course, for me, is that I'm already getting calls about "why don't you do your own ideal course from scratch?".  If we can pull off the Lido to my satisfaction, I might just try it.


A blank slate Doak ideal course?  Please expound.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Michael Whitaker on January 23, 2021, 01:28:57 PM
The number of golfers I have met who have never even heard of Bandon Dunes always amazes me.  Even living in Seattle, it seemed like 50% of the people I was randomly paired with had not heard of the best resort in the world 7 hours south.  It was always a good reminder of how different my golf reality is from the average player.
Joe - of all the guys in my regular golf circle (maybe 100 or so) only one, besides me... ONE... has been to Bandon. Most regular golfers donít know about, or care to know about, places like Bandon, StreamSong, or Sand Valley. It really is an exclusive group that keeps those places going.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Steve Lang on January 23, 2021, 01:40:56 PM
 8)   Yes THE RETAIL GOLFER as Mr Keiser calls the patrons...  hate paying the MSRP more than once...
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Garland Bayley on January 23, 2021, 02:03:01 PM
The number of golfers I have met who have never even heard of Bandon Dunes always amazes me.  Even living in Seattle, it seemed like 50% of the people I was randomly paired with had not heard of the best resort in the world 7 hours south.  It was always a good reminder of how different my golf reality is from the average player.
Joe - of all the guys in my regular golf circle (maybe 100 or so) only one, besides me... ONE... has been to Bandon. Most regular golfers donít know about, or care to know about, places like Bandon, StreamSong, or Sand Valley. It really is an exclusive group that keeps those places going.

Everyone I play with has heard of Bandon, and probably more than half have played there. I guess those Boeing people in Seattle have their heads in the sky, and aren't paying attention to what's on the ground. ;)

Perhaps because the Oregon media that we see in SW Washington has made people more aware.
 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Don Mahaffey on January 23, 2021, 03:58:20 PM

Don:  I get that some people will dismiss this course as a "cover" but the analogy isn't quite right, because nobody can listen to the original music anymore.  I wouldn't be doing this if the original golf course was still around.
 


I'm certainly not dismissing the course. If cover is the wrong word then maybe reproduction? I do struggle with restoration tho, as I don't see how a course is restored when its built on completely different ground. Regardless of the semantics, what I'm curious about is how you'll go about building it so exactly. Greens built in 1917 were steeper, no?  Construction processes, equipment, expertise was all very different. I hope the restoration word is genuine and honest, not a marketing slogan...because if it truly is a restoration, I think it'll look a lot different than most courses opened in the last two decades.



Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 23, 2021, 06:27:00 PM
How many architects, other than Mike Strantz, have the guts to build a course from scratch on a mostly featureless site and create non-traditional holes? Fazio started with nothing at Shadow Creek, but it looks like a typical, manicured, ďfair,Ē Fazio course. 

Pete Dye at Sawgrass or Whistling Straights maybe? With a few holes anyway.

But if an architect could shape 18 holes however he wanted, how many would chose to build blind shots? Seems to me most would just come up with a really nice, eminently fair and playable design.

Which I think is why I like Strantz so much. He chose to create/add the problems/quirk that make a course like North Berwick so memorable.




Dan:


I think you might be surprised.  The holdup is, very few architects ever get the assignment to shape whatever they want. 


Or you might be right.  I think most designers would assume that the client didn't really mean it in regard to certain things, or that the lawyers wouldn't let them build a blind approach or hit over the previous green.  And if the designer owned the course himself, then he would have to think about commercial realities that might compromise his design!


I don't see Whistling Straits as non-traditional.  It's a cross between Ballybunion [Mr. Kohler's model for it] and Pete Dye's general style of design, which I guess is a bit different.


I am not sure that if tasked to do that myself, that I would want to create radically non-traditional holes with multiple fairways and the like.  [I would certainly consider it if that's what a client wanted, but that's not what we are talking about here.]  Instead, I think I would focus on the kinds of holes that are undervalued in golf.  But it is a very tough assignment, because no matter what you do, you only have 18 holes to build, and there will be oodles of things you'd like to do that won't all fit into one course.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 23, 2021, 06:41:40 PM

A blank slate Doak ideal course?  Please expound.




Well, it's only been a week since the Lido news was out there, so the calls are very recent and there is not much to expound on yet!


I have never really considered doing an "ideal" course, because I've tried hard not to set my ideals in stone like Macdonald did, or like Pete Dye did.  There are so many ways one could go!


I would not be inclined to do a "best of" course from my own previous work, except for a few holes at High Pointe that I'd love to put back into play somewhere or other.  Maybe there are a few others I came up with for projects that never got built, that would be possible to translate onto a blank site?  There's also the possibility of building something like the original Sheep Ranch -- not just reversible, but with multiple potential routings embedded into the design.


I wish the notion had come up a year ago, when I had all that time with nothing to build.  We are just on the cusp of getting very busy again, and it will be hard to focus on a blank slate plan.  But it might be on my to-do list now.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: William_G on January 23, 2021, 06:54:04 PM

Don:  I get that some people will dismiss this course as a "cover" but the analogy isn't quite right, because nobody can listen to the original music anymore.  I wouldn't be doing this if the original golf course was still around.
 


I'm certainly not dismissing the course. If cover is the wrong word then maybe reproduction? I do struggle with restoration tho, as I don't see how a course is restored when its built on completely different ground. Regardless of the semantics, what I'm curious about is how you'll go about building it so exactly. Greens built in 1917 were steeper, no?  Construction processes, equipment, expertise was all very different. I hope the restoration word is genuine and honest, not a marketing slogan...because if it truly is a restoration, I think it'll look a lot different than most courses opened in the last two decades.


I hope it looks different
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 23, 2021, 07:02:19 PM
Regardless of the semantics, what I'm curious about is how you'll go about building it so exactly. Greens built in 1917 were steeper, no?  Construction processes, equipment, expertise was all very different. I hope the restoration word is genuine and honest, not a marketing slogan...because if it truly is a restoration, I think it'll look a lot different than most courses opened in the last two decades.


Peter Flory can weigh in on the level of detail he's got for the course, if he wants.  Obviously, the information can't be perfect, so we just have to accept that and do the best we can.


What I can tell you is that I'm sold on the grading plan, because of some of the details I noticed when I looked closely.  For example, the elevation of the backs of the greens on many holes is almost exactly at eye level for the player on the tee, or in the fairway.  I had never really thought about that, because in restoring Macdonald/Raynor courses we don't look at the topo maps much at all, but that is exactly why their greens seem to float in the air with that infinity look behind them.  So I think the model is vastly better than if I had tried to think through such details for all the holes.  And Peter didn't know to think about that . . . he just did his best to render the course, and then a computer program pulled topo information from his model.

You are right that it's likely some of the hole location areas at the Lido were at 4% or 5%, but the greens are pretty big so I suspect that like Chicago Golf Club they will have enough "other" hole locations that it doesn't pose a problem. 

If, say, the top right shelf of the 18th green* was all at 4%, we might modify that to make it work, after we have decided what the green speed of the day will be.  I am honestly not sure if the information I've got is good enough to be sure of such details, but I am conscious that I am working for a client who prefers flattish greens and that there may be some heavy discussions as a result!



* note:  it is clear from the drawings and from photos that Macdonald did not build as much elevation and slope into MacKenzie's ideal finishing hole as what was depicted in Country Life.  [I believe the original drawing had the back of the green at +43 above sea level, and the front at +35.  The highest point at the Lido was the top of the Alps hill, at about +39.]  I know that Macdonald was quoted as being unhappy they hadn't done some things on as big a scale as his original plans, but for the most part, we've got to go with what they did, since he wasn't too specific about what was different.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 23, 2021, 07:07:09 PM

I hope it looks different


The trickiest part will be getting the areas outside the turf to look different.  At the Lido, they planted a bunch of marram type grasses straight into the sand originally, and from all accounts it was brutal to play out of, if you could even find your ball.  That probably would not go over very well with the members! 


The areas in between the holes are fairly small, so I'm not worried about it looking like the other courses at Sand Valley in those places; but around the outside of the front nine, it is all sand and native grass, and there are a lot of modern courses that look like that, both in Wisconsin and elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Grant Saunders on January 23, 2021, 07:15:55 PM

Don:  I get that some people will dismiss this course as a "cover" but the analogy isn't quite right, because nobody can listen to the original music anymore.  I wouldn't be doing this if the original golf course was still around.
 


I'm certainly not dismissing the course. If cover is the wrong word then maybe reproduction? I do struggle with restoration tho, as I don't see how a course is restored when its built on completely different ground. Regardless of the semantics, what I'm curious about is how you'll go about building it so exactly. Greens built in 1917 were steeper, no?  Construction processes, equipment, expertise was all very different. I hope the restoration word is genuine and honest, not a marketing slogan...because if it truly is a restoration, I think it'll look a lot different than most courses opened in the last two decades.


Will modern maintenance methods gel with a a faithfully adhered to design?


Will mowing heights be more period appropriate and how much impact the playabilty will be affected by such decisions?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 23, 2021, 07:34:57 PM

Will modern maintenance methods gel with a a faithfully adhered to design?

Will mowing heights be more period appropriate and how much impact the playabilty will be affected by such decisions?


Grant:


I don't think we will be mandating that people play with hickories, because those were the standard in 1918, although Peter Flory can and does play with them fairly often.


I imagine we will address those questions the way all the other courses that were built before 1920 have addressed them.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Don Mahaffey on January 24, 2021, 09:46:20 AM



What I can tell you is that I'm sold on the grading plan, because of some of the details I noticed when I looked closely.  For example, the elevation of the backs of the greens on many holes is almost exactly at eye level for the player on the tee, or in the fairway.  I had never really thought about that, because in restoring Macdonald/Raynor courses we don't look at the topo maps much at all, but that is exactly why their greens seem to float in the air with that infinity look behind them.  So I think the model is vastly better than if I had tried to think through such details for all the holes.  And Peter didn't know to think about that . . . he just did his best to render the course, and then a computer program pulled topo information from his model....

If, say, the top right shelf of the 18th green* was all at 4%, we might modify that to make it work, after we have decided what the green speed of the day will be.  I am honestly not sure if the information I've got is good enough to be sure of such details, but I am conscious that I am working for a client who prefers flattish greens and that there may be some heavy discussions as a result!



Very interesting observation about the elevations at the backs of greens.


Re greens slopes...tell 'em if they are going to market using restoration, then that's what we want... ;D   Seriously, it would be very cool to play the  original Lido, a modernized version doesn't have the same appeal, to me at least...once you start that "adjusting to the present" process, where do you stop? It'd be so unique to experience it as it was.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Lou_Duran on January 24, 2021, 10:26:22 AM
The number of golfers I have met who have never even heard of Bandon Dunes always amazes me.  Even living in Seattle, it seemed like 50% of the people I was randomly paired with had not heard of the best resort in the world 7 hours south.  It was always a good reminder of how different my golf reality is from the average player.
Joe - of all the guys in my regular golf circle (maybe 100 or so) only one, besides me... ONE... has been to Bandon. Most regular golfers donít know about, or care to know about, places like Bandon, StreamSong, or Sand Valley. It really is an exclusive group that keeps those places going.


Second that, though my "circle" is considerably smaller.  I have had many similar talks (where have you played?, what are your favorite courses?) with players at a large number of clubs over the years and the urge to seek the far-flung courses we discuss here is limited.  Of Bandon specifically, the relative few who were familiar with the resort and been there reported that they enjoyed the experience but would not return, climate, logistics, cost, type of golf, walking among the reasons cited. 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Steve Lang on January 24, 2021, 10:58:43 AM
Hey Lou,


Those guys you reference, would you call them or did they know they were "retail golfers"?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Lou_Duran on January 24, 2021, 12:09:30 PM
Steve,


We have around 400 members at my home club, the vast majority whom could be described by the non-pejorative definition of "retail golfer".  I suspect that this is also the case with most of the clubs I've visited over the past 30-40 years, though the composition is likely different at older, wealthier clubs in America's original large cities, mainly in the NE, around the Great Lakes, and northern CA.


Mike's point is well-taken.  The market is thin, making the economics particularly dependent on the supply, its cost, compelling architecture/experience (and reputation), and barriers to entry, particularly for the more remote locations like Bandon.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Steve Lang on January 24, 2021, 12:15:01 PM
 8)  Tom Doak,

From what i remember reading once about the Lido construction engineering, they dredged and pumped a lot of sand slurry to build up the site elevations..  do you believe they built high and let the materials subside before contouring or let the subsidence just happen and create some "natural like" drainage topography?  So do you distinguish between having "macro and micro" type grading plans?  I assume the latter may be partially cut by rainfall events' flows or otherwise directed to available discharge points?


In Reply #107, you mentioned "I would not be inclined to do a "best of" course from my own previous work, except for a few holes at High Pointe that I'd love to put back into play somewhere or other."  Which holes would you consider?  #3 or 4 ? or #13 or 15?  Just wondering...  I've got 10 acres on a hill to build a couple holes on east of Kalkaska off 612...
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: SL_Solow on January 24, 2021, 12:25:14 PM
One of the most thought provoking comments I have read is Tom's observation regarding the Lido greens being built at eye level to create the illusion of an infinity green.  I will try to observe other greens to see whether this technique is used elsewhere and compare it to other infinity type greens, most of which where the back edge is set higher.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 24, 2021, 12:29:47 PM


From what i remember reading once about the Lido construction engineering, they dredged and pumped a lot of sand slurry to build up the site elevations..  do you believe they built high and let the materials subside before contouring or let the subsidence just happen and create some "natural like" drainage topography?  So do you distinguish between having "macro and micro" type grading plans?  I assume the latter may be partially cut by rainfall events' flows or otherwise directed to available discharge points?


In Reply #107, you mentioned "I would not be inclined to do a "best of" course from my own previous work, except for a few holes at High Pointe that I'd love to put back into play somewhere or other."  Which holes would you consider?  #3 or 4 ? or #13 or 15?  Just wondering...


We did the dredge-and-slurry thing on our project in China, and it comes out so wet that the only way to keep shapes in place is to use wooden forms to hold it in until it dries, which I think they tried at Lido.  The natural subsidence is just a blob without any interesting shape.  Macdonald and Raynor had a very precise grading model for what they wanted to build and they would have had to establish those shapes after the material dried out.  Luckily we are working with dry ground in Wisconsin so we can skip that step of the process, but we have other steps to deal with.


The holes at High Pointe I would be inclined to replicate somewhere else are 3, 7, and 13.  There are certainly better versions of the Redan in other places, and a hole like 15 depended on a lot of topography that I wouldn't bother to build just for that effect.  12 and 14 would be two others, but it would take a long time to grow maple trees like the ones I worked around on the 12th.  [Incidentally, that great big sugar maple to the left of 12 green is dead and falling apart now.  I think it must have gotten used to having some irrigation water, and when the water went off it got stressed.   :'( [size=78%]][/size]
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Thomas Dai on January 24, 2021, 01:56:59 PM
The observation regarding the rear of greens being at eyeline height is a fascinating one. I imagine there are probably some other factors within construction, playability etc that such design brings into consideration.
Atb
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on January 24, 2021, 02:06:49 PM
In terms of the available information, I'll just give an example of a hole where I think that Tom and his team can get the accuracy nearly perfect.  The available information and high resolution photos varies across the site, but there is a really good baseline, even for the holes with the least amount of info, mainly because of the detailed plans, some high resolution aerials, and some decent resolution oblique aerials.

Here is an assemblage of information for #3 (Eden).  When building out each hole digitally, I'll just collect everything available for a hole, including all the writings, and try to make the model match from all angles to a reasonable level.  I would expect that my digital model would provide the rough draft and then Tom and his team would mainly work off of the actual source data when they are trying to dial in the accuracy.  They surely won't be able to get it to the inch, but hopefully they could get it to a level where a member from the original Lido wouldn't notice the difference (ignoring the new setting). 

SROLL RIGHT TO SEE THE FULL IMAGES
(in this pic, the guy must be a very reliable ball striker for the caddie and his wife to stand right there.) 

This photo gives some clue as to the back edge of the green, especially in the back right corner.
(https://i.imgur.com/RBIvyinh.jpg)

In photos like these, it's easy to focus on the foreground.  But this provides great info for #4 as well. 
(https://i.imgur.com/7XMBnZ2h.jpg)

Same pic, but a different cropping and it shows more of the front of the green:
(https://i.imgur.com/dvHDJEbh.jpg)

From George's book:  Great look at the fall off in the front left.  And People in the pic give a nice size perspective.  But notice how the front-right part of the green differs from the pic above.  Also, the bunker face differs from the view from the tee.  Those are examples of the things that Tom and his team have to sort through and decision. 
(https://i.imgur.com/9r2H5z9h.png?1)

Oblique aerial from the Channel side- this perspective is really great for holes on the North half of the course.  You can see the diagonal ridge for the falloff that matches the pic above.  It also provides a really nice look at what happens over the green and the lips of the traps looking back toward the tee. 
(https://i.imgur.com/lfT6WUUh.jpg)

And some vertical aerials- these weren't that helpful for this hole regarding contours, but are for others.  And they were critical to get the fairway lines, green edges, and bunkers right in a 2D sense.  The only tricky part was that some things changed slightly from when it was built to when some of these were taken, so I had to be aware of those changes.
(https://i.imgur.com/DfWbT1Nh.jpg)

Negative- which can sometimes reveal things that I'd otherwise miss.
(https://i.imgur.com/YkgiNZSh.jpg)

Luckily, this was such a famous course that there were lots of photos taken.  I am hopeful that we can uncover some more over the next year.  The aerials that Craig Disher provided were a huge help and he continues to find higher resolution versions. 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Kalen Braley on January 24, 2021, 04:21:30 PM
I'm curious....how much if any of the water features are included in the project scope at the moment?



Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 24, 2021, 04:59:52 PM
I'm curious....how much if any of the water features are included in the project scope at the moment?


The big lagoon in between 3, 4 and 12 is already more than halfway dug.


For the channel behind 3 and to the right of 4, I think we are going to dig a wide ditch full of water, and then say everything across is part of the hazard.  It would be an enormous amount of material to dig out a big lake, which we don't need, and whatever water features we do include have to be lined, which adds to the cost.  I really don't have a sense that many people hit it into Reynolds Channel.


On the south side, obviously we can't dig the Atlantic Ocean, so we will just build a wide beach feature alongside the Biarritz hole.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on January 24, 2021, 05:19:44 PM
Here is the best that I could do to show what the 8th would look like with the sea of sand and grass concept.  The tree line that you see to the right doesn't necessarily correspond to the site, it is just the edge of my digital plot.  So maybe there will be even longer views out that way which would make it better. 

(https://i.imgur.com/f3KK96rl.jpg)

With the original, you had high tide where waves could sometimes lap to the edge of the green and you'd have low tide where there could be a lot of playable beach.  So if you did put water in there, you'd have to pick a boundary within that range.  But since nothing would do the Atlantic justice and since most of the course's life just had no water and cabanas bordering it, something like the above seems appropriate and not cheesy.  I'd rather play this hole than the inland variant of the 8th at Lido Beach. 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Kalen Braley on January 24, 2021, 05:39:53 PM
Peter,


That's a nice mock up, and I would certainly agree it seems pointless to even try to recreate a large body of water.   
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jeff Schley on January 24, 2021, 06:10:02 PM
I'm curious....how much if any of the water features are included in the project scope at the moment?


The big lagoon in between 3, 4 and 12 is already more than halfway dug.


For the channel behind 3 and to the right of 4, I think we are going to dig a wide ditch full of water, and then say everything across is part of the hazard.  It would be an enormous amount of material to dig out a big lake, which we don't need, and whatever water features we do include have to be lined, which adds to the cost.  I really don't have a sense that many people hit it into Reynolds Channel.


On the south side, obviously we can't dig the Atlantic Ocean, so we will just build a wide beach feature alongside the Biarritz hole.


Lining the water features was what I was thinking would be expensive and not surprised it wil be. I have only been to SV once and knowing how mosquitos are or can be in the summer, do those who have spent a lot of time there, is this a concern?  Bring the bug spray?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: PPallotta on January 24, 2021, 06:43:08 PM
What will be interesting is how the new Lido might shed light on an old debate:

Can a golf course be judged apart from its setting?

Or should it be:

Can a great design make for a great golf course, independent of its setting?

Or:

In a golf context, does a setting become a 'setting' only when a golf course is actually set there?

Or:

If Mammoth Dunes works because of the dunes and Sand Valley because of the sand, what is the 'because' of a Lido in that setting?






Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on January 24, 2021, 09:42:38 PM
It might help in the regression analysis to evaluate the remaining Lido course as well since it is on a nearly identical setting as the original post-Atlantic Ocean Lido. 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Mike_Trenham on January 24, 2021, 09:57:31 PM
Tom:


Were you able to orient the site to as best possible align with the prevailing in season wind direction of the Long Island site?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 24, 2021, 10:11:46 PM
Tom:


Were you able to orient the site to as best possible align with the prevailing in season wind direction of the Long Island site?




The original course was oriented so that most of the holes ran north-and-south, and we kept the same alignment for Wisconsin.


The prevailing winds in both cases are from the south and from the west.  You might get an occasional east wind on Long Island when a storm comes up the coast, that you probably won't see in Wisconsin, but they're pretty comparable.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on January 24, 2021, 11:20:05 PM

Here are the stats for each in terms of direction and magnitude.  Very similar and you can get any direction wind.  The course was designed for a variety of wind directions, so I think that it plays well in all of them. 

Lido Beach, NY
Wind Direction
(https://i.imgur.com/l03W2czl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/IeaVaeGl.jpg)


Nekoosa, WI
(https://i.imgur.com/t4IioLyl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/HMDTwC4l.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jeff Schley on February 01, 2021, 02:41:06 PM
https://romewi.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/LIDO-PUD-PLAN-DRAFT-2020-11-2.pdf
Can't recall if anyone posted this previously.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tim_Weiman on February 01, 2021, 11:22:34 PM



What I can tell you is that I'm sold on the grading plan, because of some of the details I noticed when I looked closely.  For example, the elevation of the backs of the greens on many holes is almost exactly at eye level for the player on the tee, or in the fairway.  I had never really thought about that, because in restoring Macdonald/Raynor courses we don't look at the topo maps much at all, but that is exactly why their greens seem to float in the air with that infinity look behind them.  So I think the model is vastly better than if I had tried to think through such details for all the holes.  And Peter didn't know to think about that . . . he just did his best to render the course, and then a computer program pulled topo information from his model....

If, say, the top right shelf of the 18th green* was all at 4%, we might modify that to make it work, after we have decided what the green speed of the day will be.  I am honestly not sure if the information I've got is good enough to be sure of such details, but I am conscious that I am working for a client who prefers flattish greens and that there may be some heavy discussions as a result!



Very interesting observation about the elevations at the backs of greens.


Re greens slopes...tell 'em if they are going to market using restoration, then that's what we want... ;D   Seriously, it would be very cool to play the  original Lido, a modernized version doesn't have the same appeal, to me at least...once you start that "adjusting to the present" process, where do you stop? It'd be so unique to experience it as it was.
Don,


Call me if you would like to play the original Lido. Lots of guys really enjoy it. The idea that the Navy destroyed it is just a story local members tell so it doesnít get too crowded.



Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Chris_Blakely on February 02, 2021, 08:43:47 AM



What I can tell you is that I'm sold on the grading plan, because of some of the details I noticed when I looked closely.  For example, the elevation of the backs of the greens on many holes is almost exactly at eye level for the player on the tee, or in the fairway.  I had never really thought about that, because in restoring Macdonald/Raynor courses we don't look at the topo maps much at all, but that is exactly why their greens seem to float in the air with that infinity look behind them.  So I think the model is vastly better than if I had tried to think through such details for all the holes.  And Peter didn't know to think about that . . . he just did his best to render the course, and then a computer program pulled topo information from his model....

If, say, the top right shelf of the 18th green* was all at 4%, we might modify that to make it work, after we have decided what the green speed of the day will be.  I am honestly not sure if the information I've got is good enough to be sure of such details, but I am conscious that I am working for a client who prefers flattish greens and that there may be some heavy discussions as a result!



Very interesting observation about the elevations at the backs of greens.


Re greens slopes...tell 'em if they are going to market using restoration, then that's what we want... ;D   Seriously, it would be very cool to play the  original Lido, a modernized version doesn't have the same appeal, to me at least...once you start that "adjusting to the present" process, where do you stop? It'd be so unique to experience it as it was.
Don,


Call me if you would like to play the original Lido. Lots of guys really enjoy it. The idea that the Navy destroyed it is just a story local members tell so it doesnít get too crowded.


Well membership needs a new story.  I have played three rounds there all over 5.5 hours and on the last, I left after 6 hours with two holes to go.


Chris
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Mark_Fine on February 08, 2021, 09:23:06 PM
I am a bit late to the party here but I was just reading about Ballyshear in Links Magazine and thought I would add a few thoughts.  First of all, the two courses will be so far apart only a handful of golfers will ever get to play both.  Not a problem in my mind as that is not that uncommon.  I also tend to agree with some here that it will be near impossible to build an exact replica of Lido.  Like most ďrestorationsĒ there will be a lot of subjective interpretation required coupled with dealing with different grasses and maintenance practices, ... etc.  I am sure Tom will do a fantastic job just like I am sure Gil is doing/has done on Ballyshear.  The question I have on the U.S. Lido is will it prove to be a great golf course as well or more of a museum piece that just a few of us golf nerds/GCA enthusiasts can appreciate.  Even at Old Macdonald, as someone pointed out, the best hole there might be one that is more of an original vs one of Macdonaldís template holes.  If one or two of the Lido holes, once constructed, looks like it wonít be as good as envisioned, will it be left as is because that was what it was or will it be tweaked to make it fit or be better.  I think Tom has already stated he plans to build it as was but letís see how that all goes.  I guess when money isnít an issue you can do this kind of thing.  Pretty cool that it will happen.  Congrats to all involved.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Ronald Montesano on February 16, 2021, 07:45:21 PM
Have we posted this link yet?

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-lido-news
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on February 17, 2021, 09:04:00 AM
The question I have on the U.S. Lido is will it prove to be a great golf course as well or more of a museum piece that just a few of us golf nerds/GCA enthusiasts can appreciate.  Even at Old Macdonald, as someone pointed out, the best hole there might be one that is more of an original vs one of Macdonaldís templates.


Do you think Chicago Golf or Fishers Island are museum pieces because they haven't been stretched to 7000 yards?  Why would Lido be any different?


I'm not sure the 7th is the best hole at Old Macdonald, but it gets more attention  because (a) it's on the ocean and (b) you don't have to compare it to 50 other versions of the Redan or Biarritz.  Lido in Wisconsin won't have the ocean, but the original did have four holes Macdonald never built anywhere else, and I suspect those will be among the standouts.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Paul Rudovsky on February 17, 2021, 09:45:28 PM
Many of the posts about Lido say that it disappeared because of damage done to the property by the Navy during WW II.  That is very different that what I have read. 


My understanding is that the club was reasonably successful after it was first completed and after a few years the members started asking for a big clubhouse and rooms to stay in when they came out for the weekend,  The result was this enormous clubhouse/hotel in the property's SW corner that was built in the mid-late 1920's (and is still standing to this day...in the form of a condominium building).  The construction of this building (owned by the club) was financed with bank debt...and starting in late October 1929 and the start of the Depression, the club started losing members who could not afford the dues etc.  I have read that the banks ended up taking over the clubhouse and then the club as a result of missed payments, and the club went downhill in the 1930's. 


The Navy's use of the property during WW II surely did not help...but the real issue was the club overextending itself during the 1920's.



Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on February 17, 2021, 11:26:12 PM
For anyone interested in the history of the hotel and some of the happenings from an ownership/ investor perspective, there is this:
https://www.amazon.com/Lido-Club-Hotel-Images-America/dp/1467104442 (https://www.amazon.com/Lido-Club-Hotel-Images-America/dp/1467104442)

It was written by a women who is part of the Long Beach historical society and she is a long time resident of the building that was the Lido Club Hotel.  As I was trying to understand things from the golf course angle, she was researching everything from the hotel angle.  So we had some interesting discussions.  I was especially interested in what she told me about the efforts to revive the course before they pivoted and decided to build an original course on the new site. 

This book doesn't have a lot of narrative.  It's mostly pictures and corresponding facts.  But I enjoyed it. 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Sven Nilsen on February 17, 2021, 11:46:52 PM
A portion of the book Peter linked to can be found here -


https://books.google.com/books?id=5eLZDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT8&lpg=PT8&dq=what+happened+to+lido+golf+club&source=bl&ots=LUCE_sEIQP&sig=ACfU3U2_BJvdSS-h8N2gybYkxKPLCa8hwA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4kuXRyfLuAhUWpp4KHWkBAcM4HhDoATABegQIAxAD#v=onepage&q=what%20happened%20to%20lido%20golf%20club&f=false


There are a few facts that jump out that run contrary to the tale Paul tells above.


1.  The hotel and the golf club were started as separate entities. 


2.  By 1931, the membership of the golf club had increased sevenfold.


3.  The moving spirit behind the entire enterprise, Sen. William Reynolds, passed away in 1931.  The author cites his passing, the Depression and the 1938 hurricane as the major contributing factors to the demise of the hotel.


4.  The hotel did go into foreclosure in 1938, but it is unclear to me if the golf club and the hotel were effectively the same entity at that time, in 1940 when it was sold to Frank Seiden (under whose ownership the hotel actually prospered) or a few years later when the hotel and the property of the course were taken over by the Navy.


5.  The phrase the author uses to describe what happened to the course during the Navy's occupation is "complete destruction."
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on February 18, 2021, 12:02:10 AM

I'd say that the development overall was cursed as far as timing, but that's just because I'm dwelling on it.  When you broaden your perspective, just about every development and golf course had very tough times from WWI to WWII.  The roaring 20s was an exceptional period, but very short lived.  But the Lido was a bit special because of how audacious it was as a project.  And the Hotel followed suit- there is an amazing picture in that book where there are elephants involved in the construction of something near the beach- perhaps the boardwalk. 

Maybe Joanne Belli would be an interesting interview for GCA to share her knowledge and answer some of our questions from the golf side.  I know that she is in touch with grandchildren of Seiden and others, so she is sourcing information as directly as possible. 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Sven Nilsen on February 18, 2021, 10:14:59 AM

When you broaden your perspective, just about every development and golf course had very tough times from WWI to WWII.  The roaring 20s was an exceptional period, but very short lived. 


Peter:


This is not entirely true. 


If you limited your statement to just the Depression years, it makes a bit of sense.  But the 1920's saw the single greatest period of expansion in the game of golf in this country.  And there were a good number of clubs that were significantly well established by the time the 30's rolled around that the Depression had little impact. 


Even in the 30's, the WPA helped to spur a massive movement in the development and refurbishment of public courses.


Sven
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Phil Carlucci on February 18, 2021, 11:38:33 AM
For anyone interested in the history of the hotel and some of the happenings from an ownership/ investor perspective, there is this:
https://www.amazon.com/Lido-Club-Hotel-Images-America/dp/1467104442 (https://www.amazon.com/Lido-Club-Hotel-Images-America/dp/1467104442)

It was written by a women who is part of the Long Beach historical society and she is a long time resident of the building that was the Lido Club Hotel.  As I was trying to understand things from the golf course angle, she was researching everything from the hotel angle.  So we had some interesting discussions.  I was especially interested in what she told me about the efforts to revive the course before they pivoted and decided to build an original course on the new site. 

This book doesn't have a lot of narrative.  It's mostly pictures and corresponding facts.  But I enjoyed it.

Peter:

I spoke with the author Joanne while she was working on the book -- she was very interested in the history, development and closing of the course, and I passed along to her much of the research I had done previously on Lido (golf).  Like you said, the finished product focused much more on the hotel history, not necessarily the golf history, which is to be expected for a general retrospective of the hotel. 

As for the WWII/post WWII history of the course, there seems to be some ongoing confusion down in LB.  There were some details in the book that I think got twisted from the time I spoke with Joanne to publication -- for instance, she writes pretty definitively that the "new" RTJ course was built in 1949.  If she got that from the family contacts, I'm fairly certain it's inaccurate.  I also had prior conversations with one of her colleagues who, at the time, was adamant that the RTJ course was built on the same land as the original.

Regarding the physical disappearance of the original Lido, the damage done to the course in 1942 could theoretically have been reversed and the course resurrected, as the Seidens desperately wanted, had it not been for a state housing issue that gripped the property for years after the war.  There were structures and barracks built on the course during the war that were later converted to temporary housing facilities for veterans and their families, leaving the club owners to fight unsuccessfully with the government in their effort to buy back (most of) the original grounds.  By the early '50s they gave up the fight and purchased land to the east to eventually build the present-day RTJ Lido, which would be tethered to the hotel as part of the '50s-era club.

Soon after, the veterans housing and other structures were declared unsafe by the state and the land was sold off for residential development by the mid-'50s.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Sven Nilsen on February 18, 2021, 11:47:26 AM
Phil:


Did you come across anything regarding the ownership of the golf course itself?  At some point, were the hotel and course part of the same bundle, or did the separation of ownership exist between the two up until WWII?


When Seiden bought the hotel out of foreclosure, did he also buy the course?


Sven
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Phil Carlucci on February 18, 2021, 12:13:42 PM
Phil:


Did you come across anything regarding the ownership of the golf course itself?  At some point, were the hotel and course part of the same bundle, or did the separation of ownership exist between the two up until WWII?


When Seiden bought the hotel out of foreclosure, did he also buy the course?


Sven

Sven:

I have several early-1940s and post-war Newsday articles that imply that the Seidens' 1940 purchase of the club/hotel included the golf course.  That's not rock-solid, of course, but these newspaper accounts indicate that was the case.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Michael Whitaker on February 18, 2021, 05:58:43 PM
Iím really excited to see this course. As Iíve mentioned many times on this site, Iím a massive fan of the Macdonald/Raynor style and have wondered why it was abandoned. With the South Course at Arcadia Bluffs
and now the recreation of the Lido I feel like Iím dreaming! 😂


One serious question... will the course be listed as a CB Macdonald design or a Doak design? Or, a collaboration?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on February 18, 2021, 06:35:39 PM
Iím really excited to see this course. As Iíve mentioned many times on this site, Iím a massive fan of the Macdonald/Raynor style and have wondered why it was abandoned. With the South Course at Arcadia Bluffs
and now the recreation of the Lido I feel like Iím dreaming! 😂


One serious question... will the course be listed as a CB Macdonald design or a Doak design? Or, a collaboration?




I have no idea what's appropriate, and I don't really care all that much whether I am the "designer" or just the "builder".  Never have cared much about titles, honestly.  But if we credit the other guys who contributed [MacKenzie, Tom Simpson] as well as Macdonald and Raynor, I guess that would be a pretty good list to be a co-designer with!  ;)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Mark_Fine on February 18, 2021, 07:43:29 PM
According to this site, he who routes the course is the architect  :D  There is no other real credit given  :D   


I have always believed you can accomplish amazing things if you don't care who gets the credit but in this case I actually think Tom is going to have to get a lot of credit as I have to believe this will be far more challenging than just "rebuilding" a lost golf course.  I know the intent is pure restoration but I can't imagine there is enough detailed historic information available to where anyone can do as Intel does in the semi industry - "copy exact"!  Some of the differences and challenges have already been pointed out and there will be many more. 


Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Bret Lawrence on February 18, 2021, 11:18:24 PM

Sven,


Here is an article announcing the auction of the Lido Golf Course and the Lido Hotel. 
The article includes a little history of the course and Senator Reynolds.  William Reynolds purchased the golf course in the early 1920ís, when the club changed their name to Lido Beach Golf Club. Reynolds and his partners were the real estate guys Macdonald was talking about in his book. Reynolds and his partners built the new clubhouse and the hotel which became part of their holdings. The auction article below will sort out the details.


After this article, the Seidens purchased both the hotel and the golf course for $960,000 in the 1940 auction.  After losing the golf course to the war, the Seidens built the new RTJ Sr. Lido Country Club in 1956-1957 and that golf course became part of their holdings.  The owner of Yonkers Raceway, Alfred Tananbaum purchased the new Lido Country Club and Lido Hotel from the Seidens in 1962 for $4,050,000.  Two months later Tananbaum sold the ďnewĒ Lido Country Club golf course and cabana club back to the members for $3,750,000 resulting in only paying $300,000 for the hotel. Tananbaum was responsible for ending the relationship with the hotel and golf course the second and final time in Long Beach.


New York Times., May 14, 1939:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/001(36).PNG) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/408171d0-d76c-4734-82aa-5e6e71fa3517)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/001(35).PNG) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/76f43a7b-5675-488e-9ea9-2274200d0ecf)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/001(34).PNG) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/4065487f-f2ec-4d08-a1b7-8c71d5cb8cc0)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ag323/bretjlawrence/001(33).PNG) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/bretjlawrence/a/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/p/f4575235-6570-4972-a500-040d6b3582a4)


Bret
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Paul Rudovsky on February 18, 2021, 11:38:14 PM



As for the WWII/post WWII history of the course, there seems to be some ongoing confusion down in LB.  There were some details in the book that I think got twisted from the time I spoke with Joanne to publication -- for instance, she writes pretty definitively that the "new" RTJ course was built in 1949.  If she got that from the family contacts, I'm fairly certain it's inaccurate.  I also had prior conversations with one of her colleagues who, at the time, was adamant that the RTJ course was built on the same land as the original.






Phil--I am close to 100% sure that the footprint of the RTJ course does not overly any of the original...and if it does it is maybe 10-30 yards of the original (East to West).  A couple of years ago I played Rockaway Hunt Club with a guy whose dad had a lease on the RTJ course and operated it for a while.  I will ask him to review our posts...



Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Phil Carlucci on February 19, 2021, 12:00:54 AM
Phil--I am close to 100% sure that the footprint of the RTJ course does not overly any of the original...and if it does it is maybe 10-30 yards of the original (East to West).  A couple of years ago I played Rockaway Hunt Club with a guy whose dad had a lease on the RTJ course and operated it for a while.  I will ask him to review our posts...

There is no overlap between the present-day RTJ Lido and the original.  My point was that some of the area historians have occasionally confused some of the facts that those focused on the golf history know well.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tim_Weiman on February 19, 2021, 12:25:04 AM
Iím really excited to see this course. As Iíve mentioned many times on this site, Iím a massive fan of the Macdonald/Raynor style and have wondered why it was abandoned. With the South Course at Arcadia Bluffs
and now the recreation of the Lido I feel like Iím dreaming! 😂


One serious question... will the course be listed as a CB Macdonald design or a Doak design? Or, a collaboration?




I have no idea what's appropriate, and I don't really care all that much whether I am the "designer" or just the "builder".  Never have cared much about titles, honestly.  But if we credit the other guys who contributed [MacKenzie, Tom Simpson] as well as Macdonald and Raynor, I guess that would be a pretty good list to be a co-designer with!  ;)
Tom,


Being the ďbuilderĒ in this case ainít too bad.


Wow. I didnít know Tom Simpson was involved. Can you tell us anything about his role?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on February 19, 2021, 12:44:27 AM
Here are a few images to help visualize:

Old footprint vs RTJ version:
(https://i.imgur.com/Dl4RRyUl.jpg)


See that row of houses bordering the RTJ Lido, just north of the road?  I wonder if those were developed by Seiden and that was another factor that caused them to want to use that site.  I mentioned that the bisecting road was another reason and they studied various ways to sold it and costed them out (according to Belli).  But you can also see that the new site is just better- no road and more frontage.


WWII related construction on the original site.  You can see the lagoon still:
(https://i.imgur.com/hiXzp7fl.jpg)


Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on February 19, 2021, 01:23:42 AM
Simpson submitted a hole design during the Lido competition.  The article that published this said that he did not submit it.  But there is another one that says that he withdrew his entry because his good friend (Fowler) was one of the judges on the committee. 

Whatever the case, it is very obvious that CBM used Simpsons's design.  He just mirror imaged it so that it would fit where he needed it to go in the overall routing.
(https://i.imgur.com/WoSzq6Il.jpg)
Simpson had a natural area/ waste area it appears in the Y past the berms.  In some of the areas of the actual course this area looks like a bunker and in some others it looks more like it was a waste area. 

I've been very amazed by how closely they build the holes to plans. 
This is an example of a period of time when the middle area appears to be a natural area. 
(https://i.imgur.com/4mWTSECl.jpg)

And here was an earlier version from 1926 where the central bunker looked like sand.  255 to carry the central bunker from the back tee, which was absolutely impossible in the teens, but probably became possible for the biggest hitters in the 20's.  This hole was just over 400 yards from tee to green on a straight line.  So I think that for 90% of players, the central bunkers will still create a dilemma.  And if it is into the wind, then a dilemma for scratch players/ bigger hitters. 
(https://i.imgur.com/XhDxBK7l.jpg)

For anyone here familiar with Olympia Fields South, I think that #11 at OFCC South is the closest thing to this hole that I can imagine in terms of dynamics, even though it is much shorter at 325 on a straight line.  The creek is what keeps players in check though w/ 275 required to carry it.  You can either layup short right and get a tough angle on the approach, you can go medium and to the left to get the best approach, or you can go for it and clear everything with a driver, but it bottle necks and you're likely to have a tricky pitch. 

(https://i.imgur.com/9dvLzNzl.jpg)

I don't think that Steve restored this hole to its original version here, so I would be very curious to know what his though process was.  I can't imagine that he referenced Simpson's design, but I gotta tip my hat to him either way.  If you haven't played this hole, you should know that the green is much easier to approach from the left due to the way that the back half is a mini punch bowl and you can skip it in. 

It has always been a fascinating hole to me because of the variety of ways that scratch players play it in a tournament.  I usually hit a hybrid left and try to give myself the skip in approach.  Many will aim for the right fairway with a long iron and then fly in a PW.  But many others try to carry the creek and get the ball near the green or on it- though that is rare. This hole is shorter than the Lido version and it isn't exposed to the wind.  So, I imagine that the Lido version was endlessly interesting.   
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jeff Schley on February 19, 2021, 02:08:42 AM
Peter interesting comparison that hits home. I typically have to use a 5 wood and choke up a little to go right as with the tree my 5 iron can be too low and not clear the tree if I yank it a tad. I only go right if the pin is in the front, otherwise try to go left. Indeed I have seen guys hit into the bunkers off the tee and god bless em, but if you don't hit it solid or pull it a tad the water is a possibility.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jeff_Lewis on February 20, 2021, 01:12:58 PM
Every time Peter Flory and The Lido come up, I have to repeat myself.


THIS IS THE COOLEST GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE THING EVER!


His simulation, his research, and now Tom's re-creation with Peter's participation.   Coolest!!
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on February 21, 2021, 12:59:07 PM
Not sure if this has been posted before, but here is a much better look at the structures that were built on the Lido site by the Navy.  It's not terribly interesting, but just adding to the collective knowledge. 
(https://i.imgur.com/zzY6YSNl.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Sven Nilsen on February 21, 2021, 01:10:48 PM
Peter:


That photo really shows how much of a project it would have been to rebuild the course after WWII.


Sven
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tim Gallant on July 20, 2021, 09:43:57 AM
I've been following the progress of both the Sand Valley Lido and Ballyshear with great interest. One thing that struck me about the latter is that the course appears (at least in photos) incredibly manicured. I don't necessarily mean the greens/fairways, but more the areas off the fairways and around the bunkers. I know their concept isn't an exact replica, but looking at photos of the original, one of the coolest parts for me seemed to be the conditioning of the non-mowed surfaces, and how 'rough' it looked. I'm sure you can create the Lido down to the square inch, but without that same rugged, adventurous conditioning, can any course ever truly capture the essence of what the lost Lido was?


Apologies if this was covered before - had a scan through some threads, but couldn't find anything on this specific point, but might have missed it!




Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Ronald Montesano on July 20, 2021, 11:00:08 AM
TG...I think that the detail of Wisconsin will be exquisite in its accuracy, in ways that none of us would consider (other than PF and TD and anyone else on GCA working on the project.)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on July 21, 2021, 09:39:33 PM
I've been following the progress of both the Sand Valley Lido and Ballyshear with great interest. One thing that struck me about the latter is that the course appears (at least in photos) incredibly manicured. I don't necessarily mean the greens/fairways, but more the areas off the fairways and around the bunkers. I know their concept isn't an exact replica, but looking at photos of the original, one of the coolest parts for me seemed to be the conditioning of the non-mowed surfaces, and how 'rough' it looked. I'm sure you can create the Lido down to the square inch, but without that same rugged, adventurous conditioning, can any course ever truly capture the essence of what the lost Lido was?


Apologies if this was covered before - had a scan through some threads, but couldn't find anything on this specific point, but might have missed it!


The Asian golfer insists on a very manicured golf course, so I would expect their version of the Lido to look more parkland than links.


Perhaps the comparison between the two projects should have focused more on the clients and what they have said about their goals for the two projects.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: DJohnson on August 18, 2021, 03:59:09 PM
credit to twitter @patrickjkoenig
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9FbtYZXEAMhlyj?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: DJohnson on August 18, 2021, 04:00:35 PM
see more at his TWITTER POST (https://twitter.com/PatrickjKoenig/status/1428023738394718216)


Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on August 19, 2021, 09:18:43 AM
It took me a minute to place that last photo -- the bottom part of it is the 17th fairway, playing from right to left.  You'd think that such rugged contours would be around a green somewhere, but you'd be wrong:  those are in the landing area, if you play the tee shot to the left of center.  Macdonald wanted to reward a good drive down the right with more roll-out and an easier stance for the carry over the cross bunkers.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Niall C on August 20, 2021, 07:57:25 AM
It took me a minute to place that last photo -- the bottom part of it is the 17th fairway, playing from right to left.  You'd think that such rugged contours would be around a green somewhere, but you'd be wrong:  those are in the landing area, if you play the tee shot to the left of center.  Macdonald wanted to reward a good drive down the right with more roll-out and an easier stance for the carry over the cross bunkers.

That idea reminds me of Foxy at RDGC with the moguls on the right and the flatter area on the left. A cool feature and perhaps the best (only ?) good thing about the hole.

Niall
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Ronald Montesano on August 20, 2021, 09:16:33 AM
You might want to check out the YOK 8 thread here: https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70120.0.html


Just saying ...
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jeff Schley on August 21, 2021, 02:01:21 AM
Wonderful project and highly anticipated as there aren't many new courses being built period nowadays. Add the history of the project and it is intriguing. Question would be since the creation is so predicated on replicating as much as possible the original Lido, what special maintenance practices would be needed as compared to the other SV courses? Maybe losing green sizes/dimensions over time or bunker configurations, etc?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Bret Lawrence on August 21, 2021, 09:21:04 AM
The pictures posted on Twitter a few days ago are excellent! I like what I see so far.  Looks like the skeleton of Lido is coming to life.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom Bacsanyi on August 21, 2021, 12:42:38 PM
Wonderful project and highly anticipated as there aren't many new courses being built period nowadays. Add the history of the project and it is intriguing. Question would be since the creation is so predicated on replicating as much as possible the original Lido, what special maintenance practices would be needed as compared to the other SV courses? Maybe losing green sizes/dimensions over time or bunker configurations, etc?


One thing I see right off the bat is differentiating between bunkers and waste areas. What are bunkers, where you don't want any vegetation growing in them, and sandy wastes, where some random vegetation here and there is desired? Seems like that would be tricky and require an artistic touch. You can't just leave the sandy wastes alone, or they will fill with trees, weeds, grass etc. and become mostly vegetation, but you don't want to kill yourself spraying and mechanically removing all vegetation.


The good news is I believe the other SV courses probably have a solid plan for such areas in place.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Thomas Dai on September 17, 2021, 03:46:24 AM
Iíve been following the terrific course construction photos posted by Brian Schneider on Instagram.
They seem to highlight, at least to me, how golf was once an obstacle course game, albeit one played with a stick and a ball.
Shame that the obstacle course nature of the game is something thatís been lost to golf over the decades.
Atb
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Sean_A on September 17, 2021, 04:13:42 AM
Iíve been following the terrific course construction photos posted by Brian Schneider on Instagram.
They seem to highlight, at least to me, how golf was once an obstacle course game, albeit one played with a stick and a ball.
Shame that the obstacle course nature of the game is something thatís been lost to golf over the decades.
Atb

Yes. A would be good obstacle course I have seen is Walton Heath New. It's been so narrowed that the obstacles are often in the rough. These days we get road map golf.

Ciao
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Matt MacIver on September 17, 2021, 07:41:46 AM
Pete Dye espoused the obstacles course mentality, which some call target golf, then he got carried away and built obstacles out of the field of play just for astetics. On full display next week at Whistling Straits. Out of play unless DJ finds a ďhazardĒ againÖwonder if you can ground your club this go-around?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Joel_Stewart on September 17, 2021, 10:41:58 AM
Iíve been following the terrific course construction photos posted by Brian Schneider on Instagram.



He posted a new photo yesterday that is amazing.  The scale of the property looks like its on the scale of Mammoth Dunes. I'm going up next week to take a look.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jeff Schley on September 17, 2021, 12:08:51 PM
https://golf.com/travel/the-lido-wisconsin-golf-course/ (https://golf.com/travel/the-lido-wisconsin-golf-course/)
Another teaser article on golf.com.
Gorgeous progress. Is that Brian Schneider on the green with Peter Flory?
Big props to Peter in the article again. Well done.(https://golf.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/LIDO-AERIAL-Marsh-6.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Peter Flory on September 17, 2021, 02:03:59 PM
That's not me on that green- I would have been wearing shorts. 

Brian's instagram photos have really been amazing ( https://www.instagram.com/bschneidergolf/ (https://www.instagram.com/bschneidergolf/) )- and of course the sculpting work that they are doing is the reason.  That 10th green complex (in his latest pics) is something to behold.  For now, you have to use your imagination for the waste areas and the scruff, but seeing pics of the original should make that easier to visualize.

I truly can't wait to play it with you guys! 
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tim Gallant on September 17, 2021, 02:17:50 PM
My goodness - the sheer audacity of the undulations and the scale looks jaw dropping. This will (was?) not be a course of half measures. Just look how deep that thumbprint is on the short hole. Holy smokes! I can't wait to see it!
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Thomas Dai on September 18, 2021, 09:48:12 AM
Lido website - amazing original subject and amazing graphics - well worth exploring - https://thelido.com/home (https://thelido.com/home)
Bit of a wow to say the very least!
Atb

Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Thomas Dai on September 19, 2021, 02:54:55 AM
Another constructing Lido in Wisconsin article worth reading - https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-lido-sand-valley-robotic-bulldozers/amp?__twitter_impression=true (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-lido-sand-valley-robotic-bulldozers/amp?__twitter_impression=true)


Hereís a link to a podcast with Brian Zager about his involvement in the project and the use of computer technology etc in its design and construction - https://www.thesidehilllie.com/amp/episode-7-brian-zager-mapping-the-lido?__twitter_impression=tru (https://www.thesidehilllie.com/amp/episode-7-brian-zager-mapping-the-lido?__twitter_impression=true)e

And hereís a link to a video with Mike Keiser Jnr - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fYTdsbVOQYo (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fYTdsbVOQYo)

Atb
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: John Foley on September 19, 2021, 12:34:43 PM
Is there a scorecard / hole yardage available? The flyover / renders are amazing but trying to get a feeling for distance.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 19, 2021, 02:14:58 PM
Is there a scorecard / hole yardage available? The flyover / renders are amazing but trying to get a feeling for distance.


The yardages in 1920 were as follows:


1st - 384
2nd- 421
3rd- 175
4th- 466 [on direct route]
5th- 378
6th- 493
7th- 469 [also a par 5 I think]
8th- 234
9th- 357


10th-414
11th-408
12th-433
13th-316
14th-148
15th-404
16th-206
17th-563
18th-424


On our version, you will be able to play from these yardages -- the "1920 tees".  But there will also be a tee further back on quite a few of the holes -- the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 18th [I think].  I have not measured all of those out, but they should add between 300 and 400 yards to the "2020" tees.  Note that these are all possible because the holes were stretched apart [widened between holes] for safety reasons, which left room for more tees.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Dave Duevel on October 12, 2021, 12:51:37 PM
For those following along, there are some great recent updates on the Lido website.


Some incredible aerial photos are shared, with my favorite being the last photo on this webpage: https://thelido.com/updates/2021/5/3/initial-clearing-begins-hrs63-xjrb7-zdes4-tdfw4-fhscp-87fjx-fbyt9.


All of the updates can be found here: https://thelido.com/updates

Nice job by all involved as they document the process!
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jerry Rossi on May 19, 2022, 11:25:54 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52086175775_c997c54ded_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nmFgpn)


Got to check out the magic happening in Rome, WI yesterday!  What an absolute marvel that TD and his guys are re-creating!
The greens are MASSIVE and so are the contours/features!  Original or not, I think this is going to be a very special golf course and I can't wait to play it.
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tim Gallant on May 20, 2022, 06:28:12 AM
Looks very cool! Can't wait to play it when it opens.


I believe this has been answered, but will right of 4 be OOB? Also, what is the plan for the 'native' areas? Will they be left as exposed sand, or is there a plan to plant something in these areas (like a marram, etc), which would replicate how brutal the non-playing surfaces' seemed to be?
Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Tom_Doak on May 20, 2022, 10:05:58 AM

I believe this has been answered, but will right of 4 be OOB? Also, what is the plan for the 'native' areas? Will they be left as exposed sand, or is there a plan to plant something in these areas (like a marram, etc), which would replicate how brutal the non-playing surfaces' seemed to be?




Right of #4 will be marked as a lateral hazard, I believe, though we are hoping people won't try to play from over there.  If we marked it OOB that would be stroke and distance, which is not how the original hole played, either.


They are just starting to seed a native mix into the areas between holes.  Michael Keiser preferred to go with a mix that is native to Wisconsin [because the resort has made ecology and native habitat a strong ethos], so no marram -- I don't think it's entirely coincidental that it will play somewhat easier than the original Lido as a result.  Personally, I would have liked to see some marram [or there is a beach grass that's native to Wisconsin] to replicate the texture of Lido more accurately, but he who buys the seed, makes the rules.

Title: Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
Post by: Jon Claydon on June 27, 2022, 06:47:51 PM
Was fortunate to walk several holes at the Lido last week.  The green site at #4 is pretty spectacular, as is the green for #12 just next to it.  The Alps also looks incredible. 


Hat tip to Tom and all.