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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2020, 02:06:54 PM »
I want to be clear, I don't believe that I am in a position where my opinion regarding building Lido in Wisconsin is one to be seriously considered rather I was raising the basic question of why do it?  I know it would be a cool thing to do but what in particular is it about Lido that makes building it in Wisconsin the thing to do?  Bahto pointed out that the cape hole at Lido had no water but I believe TD did that at Old Mac.  I have been to Sand Valley and given the chance I would go back tomorrow - SV is a really good C & C course while Mammoth Dunes is right at the top of my list of courses which are the most fun to play.  Perhaps I should ask how this will be different from Old MacDonald at Bandon which has a great collection of CBM template holes.  Just being silly now but how about building a course after Royal Melbourne which is in a sand belt and most importantly most US golfers will never see in person.


Jerry,


Royal Melbourne would certainly be a leading candidate for me for ďif you could only play one golf courseĒ. So, yeah. Not silly. It would be great to see a replica here in the US.
Tim Weiman

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2020, 02:27:56 PM »
Just being silly now but how about building a course after Royal Melbourne which is in a sand belt and most importantly most US golfers will never see in person.

Jerry,

Not to be cynical, but regardless if they build RM, Lido, or anything else, if its private, most US golfers still won't see it.  They would have a better chance of flying to Australia and playing the original RM with their "member for a day" policy...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2020, 02:34:59 PM »
Most US golfers have not seen Bandon.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2020, 02:40:26 PM »
Most US golfers have not seen Bandon.
John,


Most golfers havenít seen any of the great courses!




Tim Weiman

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2020, 02:50:00 PM »
If Lido does turn out to be private I guarantee you that the guest fees will be lower than if it was public.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2020, 02:50:22 PM »
Most US golfers have not seen Bandon.


That's certainly true John, but the number that has seen Bandon vs an exclusive private would still be orders of magnitudes larger, say 1% vs less than .01%.

For that matter, I suppose there isn't a golf course in the world that comes anywhere near the standard of most having seen and played it.

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2020, 03:00:19 PM »
Tom Doak,Is it the course itself or the challenge of replicating it that is attractive?


JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2020, 03:16:38 PM »
From what I've heard it may be a bit of a real estate development. Good ol' fashioned selling lots to pay for the golf course. So, perhaps the course will be built more quickly depending on interest in joining/building at the club.


I thought Tom Doak's Sand Valley course was officially on hold due to the economy?


Both courses are on hold. Been hearing about Lido at SV for months.


That's not true.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2020, 03:21:41 PM »
The number of golfers I have met who have never even heard of Bandon Dunes always amazes me.  Even living in Seattle, it seemed like 50% of the people I was randomly paired with had not heard of the best resort in the world 7 hours south.  It was always a good reminder of how different my golf reality is from the average player.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2020, 04:11:32 PM »
The number of golfers I have met who have never even heard of Bandon Dunes always amazes me.  Even living in Seattle, it seemed like 50% of the people I was randomly paired with had not heard of the best resort in the world 7 hours south.  It was always a good reminder of how different my golf reality is from the average player.


People play golf for all sorts of reasons. It is challenging, a diversion, time outdoors,  prelude to a beer, good way to hang out with friends, a philosophical journey, etc. The number of people who care about golf course architecture is quite small which probably makes us both elitists and nerds. Ran set (but probably never enforced) registrations at 1750 people. That strikes me as a high number actually.


Ira

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2020, 05:10:33 PM »
... Bahto pointed out that the cape hole at Lido had no water but I believe TD did that at Old Mac. ...
??? No water at Old Mac.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2020, 12:57:05 PM »
Hope this happens, would be a great addition to Wisconsin golf. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2020, 01:54:01 PM »
Tom Doak,Is it the course itself or the challenge of replicating it that is attractive?


The latter.  Plus, it's something that has been talked about for 20+ years and hasn't been done yet,* so it would be great to get it crossed off my list of things to do.


* And yes, I know Gil Hanse is supposedly building an homage to the Lido in Thailand, but since the footprint is very different, I don't see how that counts as a recreation.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2020, 06:14:36 PM »
... Bahto pointed out that the cape hole at Lido had no water but I believe TD did that at Old Mac. ...
??? No water at Old Mac.


.....Bahto pointed out that the cape hole at Lido had no water but I believe TD did that--build a cape hold without water--at Old Mac.

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2021, 11:36:13 AM »
Sand Valley just officially announced construction of THE LIDO.

http://thelido.com

Congrats to all involved!


« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 12:56:46 PM by Morgan Clawson »

Andy Ryall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2021, 11:38:42 AM »
Importantly, they are adopting the UK model of allowing outside play for Sun Pm through Thursdays, though I believe you have to be a guest at SV.  Property will be north across the main road from the rest of the current SV footprint.

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2021, 12:44:11 PM »
Just listened to the Fried Egg pod with Tom discussing the project. I'm not seeing the value in making the effort to recreate original ground contours down to a foot or two when it's already known that for safety reasons the routing will need to be different than the original? Especially when nobody has played the original.


Unless it's just what the guy writing the checks wants?


Re: the private but also unaccompanieds business model - anyone have any insight how this is achievable in relation to the "15% non profit revenue" rule I've often seen quoted? My only thought was if the Lido greens fee is a token amount, but access contingent on a larger spend at the SV resort?


Thanks,
Michael





Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2021, 12:50:53 PM »
Just listened to the Fried Egg pod with Tom discussing the project. I'm not seeing the value in making the effort to recreate original ground contours down to a foot or two when it's already known that for safety reasons the routing will need to be different than the original? Especially when nobody has played the original.


Unless it's just what the guy writing the checks wants?



Michael,


What would be the point of doing it if not to try to recreate it as closely as possible? Having the holes spaced a bit differently for modern safety reasons certainly isn't the same as changing features on the holes themselves.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2021, 12:56:36 PM »
Congratulations to Tom and all involved at Renaissance plus of course Peter Flory. Peterís work as highlighted on this thread is amazing - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65640.0.html
Atb

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2021, 01:07:49 PM »
Mark,


I'm think of the process of restoring a classic car as a comparison. If I was going to restore an old Ferrari to use solely as a show car, then I might want every single last part to be original.


But if I knew before I began that I wanted to drive my old Ferrari, and therefore I'd need modern brakes and seatbelts, well then I'd probably just focus on restoring the cars body, engine and interior as close to original as possible, but not worry about every last screw or washer.


Curious what the comparative cost of a 99.9% Lido recreation would be vs a 90% or 95%? For a car it might be double.


Hope that makes it clearer.
Michael

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2021, 01:21:07 PM »
Given they are presumably working from a blank slate, seems you could still recreate the ground features to within a few feet for each hole...AND...have the holes spaced apart enough for safety reasons.

Unless one of the goals of restoration is to also re-create the feeling of "I dare you to hit this tee shot" knowing you could get a hot chili pepper up your backside from the adjoining hole.

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2021, 01:41:33 PM »
Mark,


I'm think of the process of restoring a classic car as a comparison. If I was going to restore an old Ferrari to use solely as a show car, then I might want every single last part to be original.


But if I knew before I began that I wanted to drive my old Ferrari, and therefore I'd need modern brakes and seatbelts, well then I'd probably just focus on restoring the cars body, engine and interior as close to original as possible, but not worry about every last screw or washer.


Curious what the comparative cost of a 99.9% Lido recreation would be vs a 90% or 95%? For a car it might be double.


Hope that makes it clearer.
Michael


That certainly makes sense. To your last question, I'd ask in reply: how much luster and romance and appeal does the new Lido lose for every percentage point it's forced to admit it is different from the original? Because the course is a legend, because it's been gone for so long, and especially because it was fully engineered from scratch, not found on the ground over centuries, I think you have to get as close to 100% as is reasonably possible, just from a hype and marketing standpoint alone.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2021, 01:47:34 PM »
Tom and his team certainly won't be using magic to make the new Lido, but they will be using its 21st century equivalent, ie technology, of all kinds (including that which Peter F used to 'model' the course); and, while TD won't be drawing on his own imagination to design this course, he will have a very clear 'vision from the past' that he'll try to re-create as closely and in as much detail as possible. Which is to say, the new Lido -- both in the process of making it and as a finished golf course, open for play -- seems to me as close to an exercise in & example of 'pure design' as I can think of. It'll be interesting to see how golfers respond to it, and how much they will appreciate it (in the broadest sense of that word).

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2021, 01:59:00 PM »
Because the course is a legend, because it's been gone for so long, and especially because it was fully engineered from scratch, not found on the ground over centuries, I think you have to get as close to 100% as is reasonably possible, just from a hype and marketing standpoint alone.


Well, ignoring the "hype and marketing standpoint" completely, I just wouldn't sign up for using the name "Lido" unless I was going to be faithful to the Lido, just like Michael couldn't call his car a '66 Mustang if he changed it very much.



But I am obliged to be sure the brakes work!

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2021, 02:41:52 PM »
A Midwest Mashie site?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

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