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Kalen Braley

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #125 on: January 24, 2021, 05:39:53 PM »
Peter,


That's a nice mock up, and I would certainly agree it seems pointless to even try to recreate a large body of water.   

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #126 on: January 24, 2021, 06:10:02 PM »
I'm curious....how much if any of the water features are included in the project scope at the moment?


The big lagoon in between 3, 4 and 12 is already more than halfway dug.


For the channel behind 3 and to the right of 4, I think we are going to dig a wide ditch full of water, and then say everything across is part of the hazard.  It would be an enormous amount of material to dig out a big lake, which we don't need, and whatever water features we do include have to be lined, which adds to the cost.  I really don't have a sense that many people hit it into Reynolds Channel.


On the south side, obviously we can't dig the Atlantic Ocean, so we will just build a wide beach feature alongside the Biarritz hole.


Lining the water features was what I was thinking would be expensive and not surprised it wil be. I have only been to SV once and knowing how mosquitos are or can be in the summer, do those who have spent a lot of time there, is this a concern?  Bring the bug spray?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #127 on: January 24, 2021, 06:43:08 PM »
What will be interesting is how the new Lido might shed light on an old debate:

Can a golf course be judged apart from its setting?

Or should it be:

Can a great design make for a great golf course, independent of its setting?

Or:

In a golf context, does a setting become a 'setting' only when a golf course is actually set there?

Or:

If Mammoth Dunes works because of the dunes and Sand Valley because of the sand, what is the 'because' of a Lido in that setting?







Peter Flory

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #128 on: January 24, 2021, 09:42:38 PM »
It might help in the regression analysis to evaluate the remaining Lido course as well since it is on a nearly identical setting as the original post-Atlantic Ocean Lido. 

Mike_Trenham

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #129 on: January 24, 2021, 09:57:31 PM »
Tom:


Were you able to orient the site to as best possible align with the prevailing in season wind direction of the Long Island site?
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #130 on: January 24, 2021, 10:11:46 PM »
Tom:


Were you able to orient the site to as best possible align with the prevailing in season wind direction of the Long Island site?




The original course was oriented so that most of the holes ran north-and-south, and we kept the same alignment for Wisconsin.


The prevailing winds in both cases are from the south and from the west.  You might get an occasional east wind on Long Island when a storm comes up the coast, that you probably won't see in Wisconsin, but they're pretty comparable.

Peter Flory

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #131 on: January 24, 2021, 11:20:05 PM »

Here are the stats for each in terms of direction and magnitude.  Very similar and you can get any direction wind.  The course was designed for a variety of wind directions, so I think that it plays well in all of them. 

Lido Beach, NY
Wind Direction




Nekoosa, WI


Jeff Schley

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #132 on: February 01, 2021, 02:41:06 PM »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tim_Weiman

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #133 on: February 01, 2021, 11:22:34 PM »



What I can tell you is that I'm sold on the grading plan, because of some of the details I noticed when I looked closely.  For example, the elevation of the backs of the greens on many holes is almost exactly at eye level for the player on the tee, or in the fairway.  I had never really thought about that, because in restoring Macdonald/Raynor courses we don't look at the topo maps much at all, but that is exactly why their greens seem to float in the air with that infinity look behind them.  So I think the model is vastly better than if I had tried to think through such details for all the holes.  And Peter didn't know to think about that . . . he just did his best to render the course, and then a computer program pulled topo information from his model....

If, say, the top right shelf of the 18th green* was all at 4%, we might modify that to make it work, after we have decided what the green speed of the day will be.  I am honestly not sure if the information I've got is good enough to be sure of such details, but I am conscious that I am working for a client who prefers flattish greens and that there may be some heavy discussions as a result!



Very interesting observation about the elevations at the backs of greens.


Re greens slopes...tell 'em if they are going to market using restoration, then that's what we want... ;D   Seriously, it would be very cool to play the  original Lido, a modernized version doesn't have the same appeal, to me at least...once you start that "adjusting to the present" process, where do you stop? It'd be so unique to experience it as it was.
Don,


Call me if you would like to play the original Lido. Lots of guys really enjoy it. The idea that the Navy destroyed it is just a story local members tell so it doesnít get too crowded.



Tim Weiman

Chris_Blakely

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #134 on: February 02, 2021, 08:43:47 AM »



What I can tell you is that I'm sold on the grading plan, because of some of the details I noticed when I looked closely.  For example, the elevation of the backs of the greens on many holes is almost exactly at eye level for the player on the tee, or in the fairway.  I had never really thought about that, because in restoring Macdonald/Raynor courses we don't look at the topo maps much at all, but that is exactly why their greens seem to float in the air with that infinity look behind them.  So I think the model is vastly better than if I had tried to think through such details for all the holes.  And Peter didn't know to think about that . . . he just did his best to render the course, and then a computer program pulled topo information from his model....

If, say, the top right shelf of the 18th green* was all at 4%, we might modify that to make it work, after we have decided what the green speed of the day will be.  I am honestly not sure if the information I've got is good enough to be sure of such details, but I am conscious that I am working for a client who prefers flattish greens and that there may be some heavy discussions as a result!



Very interesting observation about the elevations at the backs of greens.


Re greens slopes...tell 'em if they are going to market using restoration, then that's what we want... ;D   Seriously, it would be very cool to play the  original Lido, a modernized version doesn't have the same appeal, to me at least...once you start that "adjusting to the present" process, where do you stop? It'd be so unique to experience it as it was.
Don,


Call me if you would like to play the original Lido. Lots of guys really enjoy it. The idea that the Navy destroyed it is just a story local members tell so it doesnít get too crowded.


Well membership needs a new story.  I have played three rounds there all over 5.5 hours and on the last, I left after 6 hours with two holes to go.


Chris

Mark_Fine

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #135 on: February 08, 2021, 09:23:06 PM »
I am a bit late to the party here but I was just reading about Ballyshear in Links Magazine and thought I would add a few thoughts.  First of all, the two courses will be so far apart only a handful of golfers will ever get to play both.  Not a problem in my mind as that is not that uncommon.  I also tend to agree with some here that it will be near impossible to build an exact replica of Lido.  Like most ďrestorationsĒ there will be a lot of subjective interpretation required coupled with dealing with different grasses and maintenance practices, ... etc.  I am sure Tom will do a fantastic job just like I am sure Gil is doing/has done on Ballyshear.  The question I have on the U.S. Lido is will it prove to be a great golf course as well or more of a museum piece that just a few of us golf nerds/GCA enthusiasts can appreciate.  Even at Old Macdonald, as someone pointed out, the best hole there might be one that is more of an original vs one of Macdonaldís template holes.  If one or two of the Lido holes, once constructed, looks like it wonít be as good as envisioned, will it be left as is because that was what it was or will it be tweaked to make it fit or be better.  I think Tom has already stated he plans to build it as was but letís see how that all goes.  I guess when money isnít an issue you can do this kind of thing.  Pretty cool that it will happen.  Congrats to all involved.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #136 on: February 16, 2021, 07:45:21 PM »
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #137 on: February 17, 2021, 09:04:00 AM »
The question I have on the U.S. Lido is will it prove to be a great golf course as well or more of a museum piece that just a few of us golf nerds/GCA enthusiasts can appreciate.  Even at Old Macdonald, as someone pointed out, the best hole there might be one that is more of an original vs one of Macdonaldís templates.


Do you think Chicago Golf or Fishers Island are museum pieces because they haven't been stretched to 7000 yards?  Why would Lido be any different?


I'm not sure the 7th is the best hole at Old Macdonald, but it gets more attention  because (a) it's on the ocean and (b) you don't have to compare it to 50 other versions of the Redan or Biarritz.  Lido in Wisconsin won't have the ocean, but the original did have four holes Macdonald never built anywhere else, and I suspect those will be among the standouts.

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #138 on: February 17, 2021, 09:45:28 PM »
Many of the posts about Lido say that it disappeared because of damage done to the property by the Navy during WW II.  That is very different that what I have read. 


My understanding is that the club was reasonably successful after it was first completed and after a few years the members started asking for a big clubhouse and rooms to stay in when they came out for the weekend,  The result was this enormous clubhouse/hotel in the property's SW corner that was built in the mid-late 1920's (and is still standing to this day...in the form of a condominium building).  The construction of this building (owned by the club) was financed with bank debt...and starting in late October 1929 and the start of the Depression, the club started losing members who could not afford the dues etc.  I have read that the banks ended up taking over the clubhouse and then the club as a result of missed payments, and the club went downhill in the 1930's. 


The Navy's use of the property during WW II surely did not help...but the real issue was the club overextending itself during the 1920's.




Peter Flory

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #139 on: February 17, 2021, 11:26:12 PM »
For anyone interested in the history of the hotel and some of the happenings from an ownership/ investor perspective, there is this:
https://www.amazon.com/Lido-Club-Hotel-Images-America/dp/1467104442

It was written by a women who is part of the Long Beach historical society and she is a long time resident of the building that was the Lido Club Hotel.  As I was trying to understand things from the golf course angle, she was researching everything from the hotel angle.  So we had some interesting discussions.  I was especially interested in what she told me about the efforts to revive the course before they pivoted and decided to build an original course on the new site. 

This book doesn't have a lot of narrative.  It's mostly pictures and corresponding facts.  But I enjoyed it. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #140 on: February 17, 2021, 11:46:52 PM »
A portion of the book Peter linked to can be found here -


https://books.google.com/books?id=5eLZDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT8&lpg=PT8&dq=what+happened+to+lido+golf+club&source=bl&ots=LUCE_sEIQP&sig=ACfU3U2_BJvdSS-h8N2gybYkxKPLCa8hwA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4kuXRyfLuAhUWpp4KHWkBAcM4HhDoATABegQIAxAD#v=onepage&q=what%20happened%20to%20lido%20golf%20club&f=false


There are a few facts that jump out that run contrary to the tale Paul tells above.


1.  The hotel and the golf club were started as separate entities. 


2.  By 1931, the membership of the golf club had increased sevenfold.


3.  The moving spirit behind the entire enterprise, Sen. William Reynolds, passed away in 1931.  The author cites his passing, the Depression and the 1938 hurricane as the major contributing factors to the demise of the hotel.


4.  The hotel did go into foreclosure in 1938, but it is unclear to me if the golf club and the hotel were effectively the same entity at that time, in 1940 when it was sold to Frank Seiden (under whose ownership the hotel actually prospered) or a few years later when the hotel and the property of the course were taken over by the Navy.


5.  The phrase the author uses to describe what happened to the course during the Navy's occupation is "complete destruction."
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Peter Flory

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #141 on: February 18, 2021, 12:02:10 AM »

I'd say that the development overall was cursed as far as timing, but that's just because I'm dwelling on it.  When you broaden your perspective, just about every development and golf course had very tough times from WWI to WWII.  The roaring 20s was an exceptional period, but very short lived.  But the Lido was a bit special because of how audacious it was as a project.  And the Hotel followed suit- there is an amazing picture in that book where there are elephants involved in the construction of something near the beach- perhaps the boardwalk. 

Maybe Joanne Belli would be an interesting interview for GCA to share her knowledge and answer some of our questions from the golf side.  I know that she is in touch with grandchildren of Seiden and others, so she is sourcing information as directly as possible. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #142 on: February 18, 2021, 10:14:59 AM »

When you broaden your perspective, just about every development and golf course had very tough times from WWI to WWII.  The roaring 20s was an exceptional period, but very short lived. 


Peter:


This is not entirely true. 


If you limited your statement to just the Depression years, it makes a bit of sense.  But the 1920's saw the single greatest period of expansion in the game of golf in this country.  And there were a good number of clubs that were significantly well established by the time the 30's rolled around that the Depression had little impact. 


Even in the 30's, the WPA helped to spur a massive movement in the development and refurbishment of public courses.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Phil Carlucci

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #143 on: February 18, 2021, 11:38:33 AM »
For anyone interested in the history of the hotel and some of the happenings from an ownership/ investor perspective, there is this:
https://www.amazon.com/Lido-Club-Hotel-Images-America/dp/1467104442

It was written by a women who is part of the Long Beach historical society and she is a long time resident of the building that was the Lido Club Hotel.  As I was trying to understand things from the golf course angle, she was researching everything from the hotel angle.  So we had some interesting discussions.  I was especially interested in what she told me about the efforts to revive the course before they pivoted and decided to build an original course on the new site. 

This book doesn't have a lot of narrative.  It's mostly pictures and corresponding facts.  But I enjoyed it.

Peter:

I spoke with the author Joanne while she was working on the book -- she was very interested in the history, development and closing of the course, and I passed along to her much of the research I had done previously on Lido (golf).  Like you said, the finished product focused much more on the hotel history, not necessarily the golf history, which is to be expected for a general retrospective of the hotel. 

As for the WWII/post WWII history of the course, there seems to be some ongoing confusion down in LB.  There were some details in the book that I think got twisted from the time I spoke with Joanne to publication -- for instance, she writes pretty definitively that the "new" RTJ course was built in 1949.  If she got that from the family contacts, I'm fairly certain it's inaccurate.  I also had prior conversations with one of her colleagues who, at the time, was adamant that the RTJ course was built on the same land as the original.

Regarding the physical disappearance of the original Lido, the damage done to the course in 1942 could theoretically have been reversed and the course resurrected, as the Seidens desperately wanted, had it not been for a state housing issue that gripped the property for years after the war.  There were structures and barracks built on the course during the war that were later converted to temporary housing facilities for veterans and their families, leaving the club owners to fight unsuccessfully with the government in their effort to buy back (most of) the original grounds.  By the early '50s they gave up the fight and purchased land to the east to eventually build the present-day RTJ Lido, which would be tethered to the hotel as part of the '50s-era club.

Soon after, the veterans housing and other structures were declared unsafe by the state and the land was sold off for residential development by the mid-'50s.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 11:47:28 AM by Phil Carlucci »
Golf On Long Island: www.GolfOnLongIsland.com
Author, Images of America: Long Island Golf

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #144 on: February 18, 2021, 11:47:26 AM »
Phil:


Did you come across anything regarding the ownership of the golf course itself?  At some point, were the hotel and course part of the same bundle, or did the separation of ownership exist between the two up until WWII?


When Seiden bought the hotel out of foreclosure, did he also buy the course?


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Phil Carlucci

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #145 on: February 18, 2021, 12:13:42 PM »
Phil:


Did you come across anything regarding the ownership of the golf course itself?  At some point, were the hotel and course part of the same bundle, or did the separation of ownership exist between the two up until WWII?


When Seiden bought the hotel out of foreclosure, did he also buy the course?


Sven

Sven:

I have several early-1940s and post-war Newsday articles that imply that the Seidens' 1940 purchase of the club/hotel included the golf course.  That's not rock-solid, of course, but these newspaper accounts indicate that was the case.
Golf On Long Island: www.GolfOnLongIsland.com
Author, Images of America: Long Island Golf

Michael Whitaker

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #146 on: February 18, 2021, 05:58:43 PM »
Iím really excited to see this course. As Iíve mentioned many times on this site, Iím a massive fan of the Macdonald/Raynor style and have wondered why it was abandoned. With the South Course at Arcadia Bluffs
and now the recreation of the Lido I feel like Iím dreaming! 😂


One serious question... will the course be listed as a CB Macdonald design or a Doak design? Or, a collaboration?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #147 on: February 18, 2021, 06:35:39 PM »
Iím really excited to see this course. As Iíve mentioned many times on this site, Iím a massive fan of the Macdonald/Raynor style and have wondered why it was abandoned. With the South Course at Arcadia Bluffs
and now the recreation of the Lido I feel like Iím dreaming! 😂


One serious question... will the course be listed as a CB Macdonald design or a Doak design? Or, a collaboration?




I have no idea what's appropriate, and I don't really care all that much whether I am the "designer" or just the "builder".  Never have cared much about titles, honestly.  But if we credit the other guys who contributed [MacKenzie, Tom Simpson] as well as Macdonald and Raynor, I guess that would be a pretty good list to be a co-designer with!  ;)

Mark_Fine

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #148 on: February 18, 2021, 07:43:29 PM »
According to this site, he who routes the course is the architect  :D  There is no other real credit given  :D   


I have always believed you can accomplish amazing things if you don't care who gets the credit but in this case I actually think Tom is going to have to get a lot of credit as I have to believe this will be far more challenging than just "rebuilding" a lost golf course.  I know the intent is pure restoration but I can't imagine there is enough detailed historic information available to where anyone can do as Intel does in the semi industry - "copy exact"!  Some of the differences and challenges have already been pointed out and there will be many more. 



Bret Lawrence

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #149 on: February 18, 2021, 11:18:24 PM »

Sven,


Here is an article announcing the auction of the Lido Golf Course and the Lido Hotel. 
The article includes a little history of the course and Senator Reynolds.  William Reynolds purchased the golf course in the early 1920ís, when the club changed their name to Lido Beach Golf Club. Reynolds and his partners were the real estate guys Macdonald was talking about in his book. Reynolds and his partners built the new clubhouse and the hotel which became part of their holdings. The auction article below will sort out the details.


After this article, the Seidens purchased both the hotel and the golf course for $960,000 in the 1940 auction.  After losing the golf course to the war, the Seidens built the new RTJ Sr. Lido Country Club in 1956-1957 and that golf course became part of their holdings.  The owner of Yonkers Raceway, Alfred Tananbaum purchased the new Lido Country Club and Lido Hotel from the Seidens in 1962 for $4,050,000.  Two months later Tananbaum sold the ďnewĒ Lido Country Club golf course and cabana club back to the members for $3,750,000 resulting in only paying $300,000 for the hotel. Tananbaum was responsible for ending the relationship with the hotel and golf course the second and final time in Long Beach.


New York Times., May 14, 1939:







Bret

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