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Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #150 on: June 13, 2019, 07:34:49 PM »
Mark


Thank you for completely failing to read what I wrote in the context of the posts that came before it, specifically your Ďletterí and the contributions from Mr Carlton and Mr Chaplin.


You have it completely wrong.


Any chip on my shoulder is not derived at private members clubs. Iíve spent the last 10 years of my life managing such a place. Although the term is misleading. As private to me means exactly that. My point, whether you agree with it or not is not aimed at a staff member. Itís on the policy and the shitty letter and responses in this thread. Golf Clubs are in the service industry. Hiding behind faux privacy whilst looking for commercial revenue and taking umbrage for the scrutiny this naturally brings on attitudes and absolutist policies is frankly naive.


Poor service is poor service. And in my opinion and his, this fellow, an overseas visitor, in unfortunate circumstances was shown no help, no discretion, no concession. All he gets is references to Pine Valley, Seminole and Cal Club. The chip on the shoulder is yours rather than mine. These places at least are genuinely private, and donít look to overseas visitors to subsidise their subscriptions, whilst at the same time being prickly to the same paying customers highlighting what they perceive as poor service.


They paid their money, you rely on their money. Suck it up or improve. Or live with the feedback. Or be a genuinely private members club.


You have a waiting list now. Perhaps youíll always have a waiting list, lord knows itís a great course. But then lots of places had waiting lists. Lots of places displayed the same indifferent arrogance to their customers, thinking the well would never run dry.


You canít say yes to everyone all the time of course. Nor should you beat them up with examples of courses in their vast homeland they have nothing to do with. Dress it up how you like. The message is clear. You can play ours. We canít play yours and your letter shows that rankles and would go some way to explaining the poor treatment of someone in difficult circumstances.


I think people in Garlandís position travelling half way across the world, deserve better. Itís common decency. Yes the airline lost the luggage. You canít control that. You control how you dealt with the situation. In my opinion, based on this thread, you dealt with how a lot of golf clubs deal with it. A complacent shrug. And look at the thread,People loved it, references to Old Tom, make the game great again etc.


Sorry to repeat myself, even Muirfield have spare jackets on hand rather than boost sales for the most profitable Pro shop in Scotland. It doesnít mean capitulating. It means doing what you practicably can.


James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #151 on: June 13, 2019, 09:20:33 PM »
Elie is hell bent on enforcing their arcane rules. As far as I am concerned, they may be part of the reason there is a thread about Scottish golf being in trouble.

Our luggage did not make it with us to Scotland, and my son wore fashionable stretch denim Jean's on the plane for comfort so he did not have his golfing pants to wear. No matter that half the eight or so lads and gents gathered by the first tee were more shoddy in appearance with their old corduroy pants and such. No excuses accepted, and a shallow lecture on tradition was what we got. So their shop made a sale of one pair of pants, which resulted in them no having a chance to sell four meals, and no prospect of at least two of us returning.

If they had some brains they would know their stupid rule was made for the Levi's of old, and enforce it appropriately.

Too bad I'm not a Twitter user so I can excoriate them there too.


If you showed up at Augusta National to play and didnít have the right clothing to fit their dress code, wouldnít you just happily buy whatever you needed in the pro shop and be delighted to have the privilege to play the course? 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #152 on: June 14, 2019, 01:10:22 AM »
Not just apples to oranges James,  more like caviar to fish guts.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #153 on: June 14, 2019, 04:17:34 PM »

Ryan,


so what you are saying in essence is if a club accepts outside guests then they have no right to enforce rules?


Garland,


so if the membership dues were one hundred times you would have no problem with the club enforcing the rules but below a certain price rules don't apply?

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #154 on: June 14, 2019, 04:33:10 PM »

Ryan,


so what you are saying in essence is if a club accepts outside guests then they have no right to enforce rules?


Garland,


so if the membership dues were one hundred times you would have no problem with the club enforcing the rules but below a certain price rules don't apply?


Jon


No, Iím saying what I said. No more, no less. Iíve been quite specific, and hopefully clear so that it doesnít require a Ďso what youíre saying isí.




Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #155 on: June 14, 2019, 05:00:09 PM »
Ryan and Garland,


What youíre suggesting is simply absurd.


The membership cost, guest fee or green fee at any golf club has a ďTs & Cs ApplyĒ and the Ts & Cs are that the golfer abides by the clubís policies. Itís ridiculously simple ó I would have said itís idiot-proof, but here we are...

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #156 on: June 14, 2019, 05:37:33 PM »
So Muirfield are absurd for having a variety of spare jackets so visitors can comply with their dining policy?


Or should they just refer the guys paying £300 to the t&cís?


Good service is trying to be helpful. Looking for solutions, and perhaps finding a compromise.


Could they have lent the lad a pair of waterproof trousers? could they have sold them at cost price + Vat?


Compare these potential solutions, that cost the club nothing and show some understanding to a paying customer,  with Markís letter and youíll see why they have a critic rather than an advocate of their Club.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 05:42:21 PM by Ryan Coles »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #157 on: June 14, 2019, 06:33:09 PM »

Garland,


so if the membership dues were one hundred times you would have no problem with the club enforcing the rules but below a certain price rules don't apply?

No Jon. If the dues were that, it would be truly private, and I wouldn't have a chance to play there. No matter! As I have said, I have plenty of choices of places that I would be happy to play.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #158 on: June 14, 2019, 10:43:02 PM »
Elie has quickly become my favorite club in Scotland (and Iíve never been there). Itís now an absolute must-play.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #159 on: June 15, 2019, 01:07:16 AM »
Itís now an absolute must-play.

Very true.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

MKrohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #160 on: June 15, 2019, 04:20:47 AM »

4 of us turned up to Cal Club, "unaccompanied" but sponsored.


Being dopey Aussies all of us were wearing shorts, the club required long trousers so we all bought a pair, I've still got mine (some 10 years later).


Enjoyed our game, no issues, and I give Cal a big thumbs up whenever I can.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #161 on: June 15, 2019, 01:40:08 PM »

Ryan,


thanks for clearing up your point by saying you have already made your point clearly. It is so much clearer now  ::)


I do agree that waterproofs (I have done this in the past) or a pair of trousers at cost would have been an elegant solution. However, I do think the club were correct to stick to their own rules.




Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #162 on: June 16, 2019, 03:17:41 PM »
Given the suggestion previously made, without any insight at all, by Ryan about the way the starter spoke to Garland,...

I don't see anything in what Ryan wrote or what I wrote that suggests the starter was anything but polite to me. I politely asked if an exception could be made due to our luggage situation, and he carefully explained the tradition of the club.

What Ryan suggests as I interpret it is this is a course in a small rural community that charges visitors three times what similar courses not so advantageously located charge, AND enforces an arcane dress code just because they can.

Locate them in Bude, Cornwall, and the fee drops significantly, and the dress code goes with the flow.
Garland,


He suggested that the club (the starter) was engaged in "taking you down a step or two" by asking your son to obey the rules the members follow.  It's pretty clear that that is a suggestion he was trying to put you in your place.


Second, you miss the mark by a mile suggesting that Elie is a small rural community.  It's not.  It's a town/village that for over 120 years had had more houses owned by "outsiders" than locals.  It's a very smart getaway for the Edinburgh and Glasgow professions.  And the green fees are not three times other local courses.  Indeed, they're at pretty much exactly the same level as Crail, Lundin, Leven within a 30 minute drive.  And far cheaper than certain other courses within that range.


Do you think St Enodoc, or Lundin, would have allowed your son to break the dress code the members follow?


By the way, you still haven't told us whether, after all of this outraged whinging about Elie, you have made any claim from the airline.  Have you?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #163 on: June 16, 2019, 11:12:01 PM »
Mark,

I am pretty sure Ryan was indicating the club membership are the ones taking us down a step or two by insisting on their policy.

I tried to make it clear that the Fife locale gives them the ability to do what they do. Elie is no St. Enodoc. In my judgement, Bude is the appropriate comparison.

According to the airline policy, no compensation is due for delayed luggage. No matter,  I won't be flying European based carriers again now that both Norwegian and Aer Lingus have let me down.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #164 on: June 17, 2019, 03:04:14 AM »
Garland,


That first sentence sums up how utterly absurd your entire whinge is.  They were insisting on the policy the members have to abide by.  You seem to think that you and your son are so special that you special that you should be allowed to break rules that the members, who are letting you play their course, all have to obey.


You chose to play golf in Fife and if your suggestion is that courses like Elie are ten a penny in the rest of the country, you need to get around more.


It sounds like you chose to fly on an airline with rules you didn't like but rather than complain about them, you are complaining about a golf club with rules you wouldn't have had an issue with had the airline not let you down.  Isn't it about time you just acknowledged that your OP was off the mark and unreasonable?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #165 on: June 17, 2019, 09:07:31 AM »
We can only hope that someone at Elie reads this site and is having a good laugh at Garlandís expense...because I certainly am.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #166 on: June 17, 2019, 11:27:12 AM »
But, this is my favorite combo... the famous Royal Cinque Ports stripes!

The power of the Deal Stripes allowed me to chop down the mighty oak which is Ben Stephens at Hollinwell!!!  ;D




Inspirational! I think its high time the Burning Pants Society come out of the shadows here in the US. #freeyourknees #movement #buystuff

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #167 on: June 17, 2019, 12:03:11 PM »
Coming over for the BUDA in September.
After reading this thread, The Golf House Club is a MUST for me.

Do you think I should leave my cargo pants at home?

Oh wait - I don't own any.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #168 on: June 17, 2019, 12:32:39 PM »
On all of my trips to Scotland, whenever I golf I've tried to behave like a visitor in someone's house.
(And I have always felt like a very welcomed guest.)

Maybe that's just me.

The local rules and customs are important to me.  It is important to me to be polite and friendly to my hosts.
I view it as a matter of respect for the members who have allowed me to play and for the traditions of the course.

Maybe I'm just strange?

I've never been intimidated by politicians or celebrities or corporate CEO's, but I have been nervous and awed when stepping foot in the clubhouse at N. Berwick, or walking onto the turf of TOC.

And I have always been amazed (yes, AMAZED) by the friendliness and generosity of the staff and members of each and every course I've been fortunate enough to play over there.

But maybe that's just me.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #169 on: June 17, 2019, 12:39:19 PM »
Coming over for the BUDA in September.
After reading this thread, The Golf House Club is a MUST for me.

Do you think I should leave my cargo pants at home?

Oh wait - I don't own any.

I hope the club will consider a framed photo of Garland to commemorate this entertaining episode. After all, the memories are what make us human.

Ideally the photo would be framed with a much-deserved Doak 0 visitor ranking.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 12:43:36 PM by BHoover »

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #170 on: June 17, 2019, 12:58:29 PM »
The sad thing is none of us should ever have learned about this incident here on GCA. Poor form, G-bone.

Peter Pallotta

Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #171 on: June 17, 2019, 01:12:02 PM »
Many a good or at least impassioned post here, but as a total outsider with no vested interest and no desire to smugly dismiss a poster like Garland, I'm left to wonder: why does Ryan's post #150 seem to me so sane and reasonable, and both so well informed and well intentioned?
P

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #172 on: June 17, 2019, 01:24:13 PM »
I have refrained from commenting on Garland's experience or Elie's rules until now because most everyone on this thread is a good friend and I love visiting Elie and wish to continue doing so.

But...

I live in Greenville, SC... not exactly the bastion of snootiness or stuffy rules. But, most of our courses here have a no-denim policy (especially the private clubs). No one would expect to turn up at one of those clubs wearing jeans (for whatever reason) and expect to be allowed to play. It just isn't going to happen.

I know Garland was frustrated that Elie wouldn't accommodate him in his time of need. But, as Mark says, it was the airline's issue, not Elie's.

Now, Elie could have done a magnanimous thing and waved the rule for Garland (which is what Garland wanted), but where does that end? Once you open that door you no longer have a rule and it allows any local (or visitor) to show up wearing most anything and expect to be allowed on the course.

It's sad that this thread devolved into a pissing match about a conservative club's rules. But, guys... it is their club... it is their rules. Their rules were established for what they consider very good reasons. I don't really understand why any guest would question that.

Garland, it's OK to be disappointed and frustrated with the way things turned out at Elie. But, it's not Elie's fault. I love you, Dude, but you are being very "millennial" in whining about being "mistreated."

When in Rome, you do as the Romans do.

The same goes for Scotland. Buy some long socks and carry a pair of shorts in your carry-on and you will be accepted at every course in the country.

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #173 on: June 17, 2019, 03:18:21 PM »
Just going back through this thread, I notice Garland's throwaway line that the Castle Course did not enforce a no jeans rule the day before.


So Garland, given that this wasn't your first day in the UK, and that you had been in St Andrews, which has, you know, shops, you had obviously decided that rather than buy a pair of cheap, acceptable trousers, you'd wing it and rely on Elie (and presumably others) waiving their dress code for you.  And then you get angry?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
« Reply #174 on: June 17, 2019, 03:23:18 PM »
No need for a flogging, Mark. We all get the gist of what happened.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

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