Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on June 29, 2016, 10:47:37 AM

Title: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on June 29, 2016, 10:47:37 AM
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Like Dornoch, the residents of Elie and Earlsferry are keen golfers with a large percentage belonging to one of three clubs which play over the Elie Links.  Born in Earlsferry, it is somehow appropriate that the great James Braid was never a member of the Golf House Club nor was his father a golfer.  Indeed, when Braid joined the primarily artisan Earlsferry Thistle GC at the age of 15 the GHC was less than ten years old, but still the senior club.  It is telling that within one year Braid would become a scratch player despite what he describes as “nothing more or less than disgraceful” putting.

The history of Elie Links stretches back to at least 1770 and it is likely some form of the game was played as far back as 1589 when a royal charter gave permission for villagers to play over the links.   There is evidence of the existence of the Earlsferry Golf Society dating back to 1787.  It is likely the club dissolved when a tenant of the Laird ploughed the land for farming.  When the Earlsferry & Elie GC was formed in 1831 it was after a 20 year battle with the local Laird to obtain golfing rights guaranteed by royal charter.  The club didn’t have a house and instead used George Forrester’s shed (one of three club-makers in Elie with sheds) which would have been located in today’s parking lot.  The Golfer’s Tavern, now called the 19th Hole, and on the left of the 4th fairway is where members took hospitality.  I expect many golfers still frequent the pub! 

Similar to the West Links of North Berwick, Elie grew in stages when land became available.  The course on which Braid learned his trade was far different from today.  By the time Braid joined the Thistle in 1891 the links was extended to 11 holes and altered to fourteen holes.  Eventually, the course was extended again to 18 holes in 1895 with the help of Old Tom Morris (who else?).  It is thought these four holes could be 7, 8, 9 and 17.  Braid added his touches during subsequent visits and it would seem 1-3 and 18, all on the house side of Ferry Road, are the work of Braid.  This then leaves the land which runs to the sea as the section of the property which would have been the links Braid knew as a boy.   It is thought George Roland, father of Douglas and uncle of Old Tom, was the original designer of these holes in 1858. 

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A round at Elie cannot commence without mentioning or using the famous periscope.  A member salvaged the periscope from the HMS Excalibur (above) when it was scrapped in 1965 after only eleven years of experimental service.  The concept of high test peroxide (HTP) powered submarines proved to be a failure and when the US Navy was successful in developing a nuclear reactor suitable for submarines the HTP experiment was halted.  The home of the periscope was near the first tee for many years and since 2014 it has been housed in the newly constructed professional shop. Golfers are welcome to take a peek; however, it is the pro who signals “play away” after a quick look. 
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The visual aid is worth while using because the first is a blind drive over a 25ish foot rise....which used to have a centreline bunker in its face.  Many is the golfer who must leak a weak drive right over the ever so close boundary wall.  Being the highest point of the course the second is named High Hole.  This short two-shotter features a sky-line green that runs rather alarmingly away from play. Elie's par 3s couldn't be any different; one is lengthy and visually expansive and one is quite short and blind.  The 214 yard third can play nearly as long as the 284 yard uphill 2nd!   
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A look at the green from near 18 tee.
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Elie and Earlsferry are cheek by jowel towns. Below is a look at Earlsferry. The Thistle house is down the left near the 18th tee.
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The land (4-17) on the other side of Ferry Road is more genuine links.  The recently refurbished and golf themed 19th Hole is just past the Thistle on Links Road.
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Being so near the footsteps of James Braid it is impossible to resist a short detour.  If we head down Ferry and make a right, the spire of Town Hall soars above all else.  The people of Earlsferry are very proud of their native son.  A plaque commemorating James Braid is immediately left of the door.
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Just down the road is the site of James Braid's early life home. 
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Heading back up Ferry we find the 4th tee on the left.  Elie's start makes it an easy course to warm to, but the 4th gives me reason to believe this could be a very special course. However, recently the 4th has been shifted a bit right due to Links Road making the photo below not quite what the tee shot looks like today.  The bumpy fairway is now more askew to the tee which doesn't work as well as previously.
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The rumbling terrain runs through the green.
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More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-4
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 29, 2016, 11:00:16 AM
A new rule of thumb for me: if the tallest structure in town is still the church steeple, the adjacent golf course is sure to be a top flight charmer.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-4
Post by: Thomas Dai on June 29, 2016, 11:56:02 AM
The spine along the 4th inc through the green looks terrific. Looking forward to seeing more.
Atb
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-4
Post by: Mark Pritchett on June 29, 2016, 12:16:42 PM
Sean, great post.  Looking forward to more!
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-4
Post by: Marty Bonnar on June 29, 2016, 12:39:42 PM
The 4th is a scorching good hole. Did that rain arrive?!?!?!

F.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-4
Post by: Jon Wiggett on June 29, 2016, 06:41:28 PM
My word Sean, you have been busy. Elie is a great course full of character and charm much like other member's courses such as Kilspindie. It is a shame many visitors miss such courses in favour of the bigger names.


Jon
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-4
Post by: Niall C on June 30, 2016, 05:41:08 AM
Sean


Great stuff, looking forward to the rest of the tour. As per Martins comment, you must have been a bit nervous looking out to sea. Isn't Scotland wonderful in summer  ;D


Niall
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-8
Post by: Sean_A on July 01, 2016, 03:50:18 AM
FBD

That rain missed us and I expect hit some worthy Scots  8)

Pietro

Interesting...I have long lived by the rule that if the tallest structure in town is the church steeple then the chances the town is worth seeing are pretty high. 

ELIE Tour Cont.

Apparently, many members work in the medical field.  A proper tee marker which triples as a bag stand and rubbish bin. 
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The fifth is the second of six par 4s under 310 yards.  The set isn't as crafty as Lundin's, but all have at least one element of interest.   The 5th legs just enough left to make the right fairway bunker troublesome.  There is another greenside bunker left under the fold of a slope.  These two pits must see their fair share of play and then some.  The green looks like one of about nine which slope away from play, but in truth its a well disguised mini-punchbowl.   
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Townies are never far away.
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It seems like there are as many blind drives as front to back greens, but the 6th is one of only five.  Over the brow of the hill is a nest of pots which needn't be the end of the world because recovery down the slope to the green isn't all that difficult...its two putting which is the real challenge.  Perhaps the third most interesting aspect of the view over the brow of the hill is the lack of dunes.  Much of the links is encompassed in a broad amphitheatre sloping down to the sea with the 6, 9, 12 & 15 greens and 7, 10, 13 & 16 tees all using the high ridge...remarkable use of this feature. 
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Looking toward 10 fairway on the right. Elie is billowing with attractive boozer loops options. It is easy to play 1-3 & 18; 1-6 & 10-18; 1-8 and 17-18; 1-9 & 16-18; 1-5, 8 & 17-18 plus a few more. I am hard pressed to think of a course with more boozer loops.
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The 7th heads straight back up the hill, but before we do, consider the name of the hole; Peggy's.  Apparently, an auld crone used to hang her washing line in this area.  I don't know Scottish as well as I might, but this description of the woman brings a smile to my face....talk about telling it like it is!  Even into a decent breeze this 241 yarder can be reached.  It pays to take a good look at where the hole is located while playing the 6th.  Several bunkers guard the right off the tee and one the front left corner of the green. Behind the green.
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The modest length 8th can play quite long or quite short.  I did notice that many of the doglegs have scant space to hit driver when downwind.  Many is the time drives down the fairway ran into rough at the turn.  Luckily, the rough on the 8th is generally merciful.  Play is from left of the photo over the road.
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More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-8
Post by: Sean_A on July 01, 2016, 03:51:39 AM
delete
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-8
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 01, 2016, 06:51:08 AM
I recall the times when just about every course had these little boxes normally sitting on the ground at every tee - usually filled with sand - and lots of cigarette butts! Concrete pyramids painted in different colours with hole No, yardages, SI, par, sometimes even bogey, were also the norm.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ELIE/DSC05195_zps2ujxyxev.jpg)
5th, the second of six par-4's under 310 yrs......"5th 365 yds Doctor"?
atb
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-8
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 01, 2016, 07:07:57 AM
I recall the times when just about every course had these little boxes normally sitting on the ground at every tee - usually filled with sand - and lots of cigarette butts! Concrete pyramids painted in different colours with hole No, yardages, SI, par, sometimes even bogey, were also the norm.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ELIE/DSC05195_zps2ujxyxev.jpg)
5th, the second of six par-4's under 310 yrs......"5th 365 yds Doctor"?
atb
The 5th is one of a few holes that play very differently from the yellow and white tees.  It seems Sean is describing the course from the yellow tees, which is great fun.  The 5th is a short, almost driveable par4 from the yellow tees.  At 365 from the white tees it is still a short par 4 but few are driving it.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-8
Post by: Tyler Page on July 01, 2016, 09:30:52 AM
Sean,

These pics are fantastic. That dramatic shot from the third tee box is some of your best work--everything fantastic about a round of links golf in Scotland!  Makes me want to go back.

Elie is one of my very favorites.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-8
Post by: Dave McCollum on July 01, 2016, 04:51:53 PM
When I was doing my homework for my 2007 trip to Scotland, two of the architectural features that intrigued me were the cross over at 7 and 11 on TOC and the routing at Elie--16 par fours and 2 par threes.  I was curious to see how that worked.  However, when I played the courses, I got so absorbed in the golf, I barely noticed.  I scouted out Elie, Luddin, Leven, and Crail as "jet lag" courses for when I picked up friends in Edinburgh after a red-eye from the States.  I picked Elie from the drive-bys.  My idiot friends, however, connected through Heathrow where their golf clubs and luggage were lost.  We worked in this fun little course later in the week and were most pleased that we did.       
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-4
Post by: Bill_McBride on July 01, 2016, 07:50:06 PM
The spine along the 4th inc through the green looks terrific. Looking forward to seeing more.
Atb


We have that very same feature on our 300 yard par 4 at Pensacola CC.   Great design element that is so fun. 
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-8
Post by: Bill_McBride on July 01, 2016, 07:55:22 PM
The very short par 4 seventh should be called "Self Affirming."   I have played it twice from 256 yards, blind over the marker pole, and driven the green both times.   I love Elie.  ❤️❤️
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on July 02, 2016, 06:05:14 AM
I honestly don't know what yardage we played.  We were told to play the boxes so we did.  The right hand bunker on 5 was reachable on the first day, but was only a dream to achieve that on the second day.  The wind kicked up considerably to 17-20ish mph. I hit a great driver on 3, a downhill 210ish par 3. 

ELIE Tour Cont.

Elie has a handful of holes where the tee shot doesn't look like its up to anything much....the 9th is one such hole.  From the tee all that is really discernable is the hole bends right and its a loooong way.  This is a great example of what is normally called a second shot hole.  Yes, the second shot is exciting because the green is hidden beyond a drop in the fairway, but to get the good angle in one should be left off the tee...where the rough is some of the worst on the links. Even with the flattening effect of photos it is quite clear the slope down the green is severe. Play is from the right.
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An up n' oer short par 4, the 10th could be one of those holes that technology has improved.  The Firth of Forth lies directly behind the green and is comfortably in play when the hole plays downwind.   
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The downhill nature of the approach is quite severe.
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I have heard it suggested that the 11th is a bit of a filler hole to get to the 12th tee....I strongly disagree.  I won't say the hole is great, but it is good and simply so. With the quality of the two short holes being so high it is a shame more weren't built. A look at the green from forward/right of the tee.
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Yes, another front to back sloping green.
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For many, the 12th is the signature hole due to the setting.  The tempting drive hard on the beach is great, but I was less enamoured with the approach.
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A broad view of the fairway.
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More to follow.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-12
Post by: Tim Gallant on July 02, 2016, 06:27:37 AM
Sean,


Thank you for sharing. Elie is one of my absolute favourites, but it has been years since I have played there, and I seem to have forgotten some of the holes and greens. Your photo tour has me ready to go back as soon as possible!


Side note: I won't name the member, but when I first played there, an older GCH gentleman told me how, as a kid, he used to hide behind a bush on the 10th and wait for balls to come over the hill. He would then sprint, put the ball in the hole, and run back and watch the scene unfold under fits of laughter. I wonder how many members thought they had a hole in one on a par-4...
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-12
Post by: Peter Pallotta on July 02, 2016, 08:07:58 PM
Thanks for 'pinning' this thread, Ran.

Someone help me out: even though I love reading and writing, I realized years ago that I don't have a very large vocabulary (a result perhaps of English being my second language, one we didn't speak at home when I was young). So can someone provide a word, a single word, that best captures/describes what seems to be the absolute "rightness" of a course like Elie. None of the words I can think of -- modest, charming, understated, homely -- does justice to what my eyes see and my heart feels when I go through this thread.

We often profile here the truly top notch/world class golf courses, of all types: from the Bandon courses to Fishers Island, from those of the Australian sandbelt to the Scottish links, from Prairie Dunes to Garden City.  But Sean's courses in general, and a course like Elie in particular, while they might not be 9s or 10s or even 8s, seem to define and embody "golf" in such a sublime and perfect way -- but in a way I can't put my finger on.

Is there a word that captures this?

Thanks. And please excuse this side-track; I wanted to ask without starting another thread.     

Peter 

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-12
Post by: Sean_A on July 03, 2016, 05:41:29 AM
ELIE Tour Cont.

The visit to the coast is short and sweet and the final hole in this sequence is the best.  Winding adroitly along the beach, the 13th requires a bit more mettle as the green sits on a shelf well above the fairway. 
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53213856979_2fb6b90ae2_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53213856979_2fb6b90ae2_b.jpg)

It is possible to use the hill as a kick back, but the grass is not cut short so the approach must be quite forceful to pull off this ploy.  This photo also shows an extreme right side of the plateau which is cut at collar length rather than green. I wonder why as a hole location here would be superb.
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Behind the green.
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We now head away from the sea and the most thrilling part of the links.  It is fair to say the final five holes don't have the same cheerful playfullness of the previous holes.  Once on the 14th tee the mass of bunkers almost seems shocking.  Playing the course twice with wind in opposite directions I never got the impression that Elie has many bunkers.  I don't know why this is the case because the links has a very healthy scattering of 84 pits.   My theory is the bunkers are evenly spread for all classes of golfers. Regardless, the 14th offers an excellent drive between stakes and sand.  I wish the fairway crowded the OOB, thus signaling this is a viable driving line.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/42226289802_7f24313e53_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/42226289802_7f24313e53_b.jpg)

The short two-shotter up an oer' 15th is an example of the hole type which is probably a bit too forgiving.  As on the 6th a few bunkers down the middle of the park would liven up the hole.  That said, if the top of the hill can't be reached from the tee, the approach is far more difficult. The final three holes head for the house with the 16th being of the tough uphill variety with a fairly narrow fairway.  The penultimate hole too is tough because of its 430+ yards.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/35920819663_b55fe3d284_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/35920819663_b55fe3d284_b.jpg)

Rather shorter, Home features a large green (which at one time was squared off) with an interesting false front lion's mouth...a very shrewd design.  With a decent head or tail wind it is difficult to persuade oneself to hit the approach far enough to cover the false front yet not so aggressive as to wind up in the car park.  There are also a few well placed bunkers around the 290ish mark to thwart the long ball.  Incidentally, the fairway used to be far wider, spreading right where there was another bunker level with the current two.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40466209040_55d0e0fb63_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40466209040_55d0e0fb63_b.jpg)

Elie still surprises me to some degree. The course is starting to gain traction, but perhaps more as an option to round out a Fife trip. Elie has everything a person could wish for in a links except for dunes!  There are long holes, short holes, blind holes, all to see holes, tricky holes, holes of character, easy holes, tough holes, GREAT GREENS, lovely scenery, an obvious seaside character, an enchanting house and an excellent location not far from St Andrews or Edinburgh.  Among a collection of very good holes it is hard to point to many (though the 9th is one I would pick as outstanding) which are true standouts for Scotland and this may ultimately be the reason why Elie isn't talked about more.  However, the sum is greater than Elie's considerable parts.  The total yardage may suggest Elie is a holiday course, but with a hardened breeze this links will require all the grit and determination of all but the best players.  And yet, many an elder soul can quite happily meander the links without a care in the world.  1*  2023 

As fine a course as Elie is, the town is very attractive in that very little commercialization has taken place.  Elie is especially worth a look if only for its wonderful harbour where cricket is played at low tide!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47938834568_74d4969161_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47938834568_74d4969161_b.jpg)

Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/scotland/elie-the-golf-house-club/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/scotland/elie-the-golf-house-club/)

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Matthew Mollica on July 03, 2016, 07:09:45 AM
Thanks so much Sean. I only knew a little about Elie prior to your review, after having found a brassie with A.H.Scott - Elie stamped into it. The course just looks like so much fun. I reckon I'd love a game there one day! Thanks again for the effort with the images and descriptions. Very enjoyable.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 03, 2016, 02:45:22 PM
Nice to see a photo looking along the length of the famous shelved 13th green, the photo really shows up the slopes and curves and ridges and shoulders that lie within the putting surface. Highlights that shelf green can be intricate and don't have to be essentially flat.
Atb
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on July 03, 2016, 04:48:28 PM
 Peter the word I offer you is ..love.   This is the kinda course you love or miss the point and pick faults with. The photo's make it seem like other courses but I think it is that  over cited, truly one of a kind. I've played course which were former 'farmers fields' with a few bunkers  and copious rough that amounted to very little indeed. But at Elie the rough is not the dominant feature, the land is. It really does seem to get to the very essence of fun with it's 18 holes seemingly randomly places across some lively terrain.

 

 
(Having said all that there’s plenty  good architecture and clever use of blindness. I thinks Sean underrates 1,2, 8, 13 & 15. Theo overall flow is wonderful and the 'what happens next' factor is so high you never notice the length at all.)

 
If anything Sean's report underplays the wildness and greatness of the greens. Anyone know how far the fall from front to back on 10 is? My guess is 10' on a 25 yard green, putting under these conditions is similar to some of the shots you get on the Himalayas. And of course who wants to pitch to the front of a green like that?  The ground game is DEMANDED here. Of course there’s bunkers to be skirted and wind to take into account...perhaps the word I want is magic.

 
I did a thread a few years ago after my first visit and I was unsure of how 'good' a course it is.  Who cares about the answer to that? Definitely in my top 10 courses to play.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on July 03, 2016, 06:33:33 PM

Thank you MM.

Spangles...Elie went straight into my HAPPY 100 top 10 and top 20 of my GB&I top 100.  I was very impressed.  The only negative thing I could say about the course is it didn't play very firm when we were there.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 04, 2016, 01:42:13 PM
I'm really sorry I couldn't make the dates work to get up there when you were there, Sean but really glad you liked Elie that much.


If anyone is in Fife and fancies a game at Elie between 16 and 25 of this month, give me a shout.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: James Boon on July 04, 2016, 03:39:25 PM
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ELIE/DSC05123_zpsjdea8als.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ELIE/DSC05123_zpsjdea8als.jpg)



Sean,


Wonderful thread on a course I've yet to see, one day soon hopefully!


Like the look of the holes with the cliffs and rocks in the background but my favourite picture is this one of the 4th, above. The ridge running up to the green reminds me a little of 7 at Burnham, the hint of the town off to the left, but most of all that sky! Its my new desktop wallpaper... Bring on golf in Scotland!


Cheers,


James
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill_McBride on July 04, 2016, 06:22:19 PM
Definitely one of my favorite fun courses.  Love the variety of the 16 par fours.  13 is my favorite, the iron shot up to that shelf green is exhilarating.  Thanks for the fine review. 
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Lyne Morrison on July 04, 2016, 07:03:55 PM

We often profile here the truly top notch/world class golf courses, of all types: from the Bandon courses to Fishers Island, from those of the Australian sandbelt to the Scottish links, from Prairie Dunes to Garden City.  But Sean's courses in general, and a course like Elie in particular, while they might not be 9s or 10s or even 8s, seem to define and embody "golf" in such a sublime and perfect way -- but in a way I can't put my finger on.

Is there a word that captures this?





Peter, I often think of these as 'authentic' courses.


These courses were built to 'serve' a community, and they do that well.
Recreation, exercise, connection with both nature and community are all provided in an affordable and sporty environment.


Marketing, ratings, media, costly construction and conditioning and the multipurpose clubhouse, do not feature.


In many ways - real golf.
Nice to see Elie


Lyne

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Peter Pallotta on July 04, 2016, 07:12:11 PM
Thank you, Lyne. That is indeed a very good word.

I miss you around here - your insights and expertise,  your kindness and positive attitude, and your elegant and understated way with words.

I hope you are well and that all is well, and I trust you are keeping busy with projects more nourishing than trading posts with loudmouth lunkheads :)
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill_McBride on July 05, 2016, 08:29:45 PM

We often profile here the truly top notch/world class golf courses, of all types: from the Bandon courses to Fishers Island, from those of the Australian sandbelt to the Scottish links, from Prairie Dunes to Garden City.  But Sean's courses in general, and a course like Elie in particular, while they might not be 9s or 10s or even 8s, seem to define and embody "golf" in such a sublime and perfect way -- but in a way I can't put my finger on.

Is there a word that captures this?





Peter, I often think of these as 'authentic' courses.


These courses were built to 'serve' a community, and they do that well.
Recreation, exercise, connection with both nature and community are all provided in an affordable and sporty environment.


Marketing, ratings, media, costly construction and conditioning and the multipurpose clubhouse, do not feature.


In many ways - real golf.
Nice to see Elie


Lyne


I love the way the course wraps around the town, really more than others I've played in Scotland.  You play the third and then walk across a road, hit your tee shot on 4 and the left side of 4 is all houses and a really nice pub.  You turn left at the end on 5 and play alongside houses.  You don't see the town again until the 17th green and the stroll back across the road to the 18th tee and home.   It's a great aspect of Elie and must be cherished. 
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Rich Goodale on July 06, 2016, 04:37:03 AM
Bill, et. al.


Calling the course over which The Golf House Club, Elie plays over "Elie" is a misnomer.  The historical name of the land is The Earlsferry Golf Links, and all the houses which surround the house are in the historical village of Earlsferry, not in Elie, which was founded 600+ years after Earlsferry (whose 1st mention was in 1054, and which became a Royal Burgh well before Elie became a village).  Over time, Elie surpassed Earlsferry, having better port facilities and concomitantly much more wealth, and by the time that GHCE was formed the artisans in town split to form the Earlsferry Thistle Club, out of which all the great golfers from the area came (Braid, the Simpson brothers, Douglas Rolland, ertc.).  The original ETC clubhouse was the pub you noticed down the left side of the course, and ETC still exists, somewhere......
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on July 06, 2016, 08:11:48 AM
Rihc

History can fade.  It is interesting that once the Golf House Club opened and over time, the links seemed to be referred to as Elie. Even GHC added Elie to its name.  Do you think its because GHC owns the land whereas orginally it didn't?  In any case, the landowner decides the name...so Elie it is.

Ciao   
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Niall C on July 06, 2016, 09:35:09 AM
Not in the case of Balmedie or Turnberry  ;D  Seriously though, if you are talking about a colloquial name then it's down to useage and how people refer to it, not what name the owner wants them to refer to it. If it's the postal address then the owner needs to get OK from Post Office I believe.


Niall
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Alex Miller on July 06, 2016, 01:13:32 PM
Authentic is really the perfect word for Elie.


I've opined on Elie multiple times since experiencing it- truly fun adventurous golf that feels as if it's played on land that could never have been intended for any other use. By far the most pleasant surprise of my trip to Scotland even with large excitement to play there from studying up online.


The course is paced excellently. Long to short, downwind to upwind and across - we truly never noticed there were 16 par 4's (although #3 played longer than a couple of the others). It has everything one could ask for in a home club and locals are lucky to be able to play a course everyday that I would gladly travel thousands of miles for another opportunity.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill_McBride on July 06, 2016, 09:15:27 PM
Authentic is really the perfect word for Elie.


I've opined on Elie multiple times since experiencing it- truly fun adventurous golf that feels as if it's played on land that could never have been intended for any other use. By far the most pleasant surprise of my trip to Scotland even with large excitement to play there from studying up online.


The course is paced excellently. Long to short, downwind to upwind and across - we truly never noticed there were 16 par 4's (although #3 played longer than a couple of the others). It has everything one could ask for in a home club and locals are lucky to be able to play a course everyday that I would gladly travel thousands of miles for another opportunity.


😀😀👍👍

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Malcolm Mckinnon on July 07, 2016, 10:50:00 PM
Dear Rich Goodale,


Thank you for the elusive Elie story.


I love the honest golf at Elie with so many run away greens. But, as much as I admire Elie it is not true links land. I think the natural links lands that connect Lundin and Leven and the Old Tom Morris holes there are damn near the finest golf holes in Fife.


Just my own opinion!


Best!


Malcolm

















Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jon Wiggett on July 08, 2016, 05:28:39 AM
Malcolm,


sorry but I do not agree with your assessment of the land at Elie. It is links land as it certainly was low quality grazing land by the sea. It might not be dune land but that is not the definition of links land.


Jon
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on July 08, 2016, 06:02:43 AM
Malcolm,


sorry but I do not agree with your assessment of the land at Elie. It is links land as it certainly was low quality grazing land by the sea. It might not be dune land but that is not the definition of links land.


Jon


I played about 5 years ago immediately after torrential and sustained rain, within 30 mins there was no evidence. However on this visit the turf was definitely not as fine as on the Eden.  There were no 'odd' bounces that I associate with the short game on inland/clay. In one sense the turf helps the course play a little longer which is not really a bad thing.


IMO Linksland: which is not as homogenous as some people believe.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Malcolm Mckinnon on July 08, 2016, 10:28:43 PM
Jon/Tony/Rich,


My "American" interpretation of links land led me towards the undulating, lumpy and sandy dune like coastal strips of terrain.

Actually, Jon's definition of "links" being just border/waste areas between town and sea are more in line with what I was presented with when I toured the R&A clubhouse with their curator.

So Elie can very well be considered Links Land if you adhere to the R&A standard.

Either way it is a lovely place to while away a few hours whacking a ball around!
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill Crane on July 09, 2016, 11:20:24 PM
Malcolm - you provocateur!


Last June my son Marshall and I took Tom Doak's advice in the new Confidential Guide and played GHC Elie on Saturday and walked the entire Old Course on Saturday.


It is Charming and certainly Authentic.  Like so many of my favorite courses it comes right out of the town - similar to Springdale, Merion, R Dornoch, Nairn, North Berwick, etc.,etc.   Oh, and the courses in St Andrews, of course.

We were fortunate enough to join two members, also Father and son on the 5th hole.  After the round, I enjoyed the pictures of Bill Campbell in classy clubhouse- who was apparently a member.  I had caddied for him as a lad at Springdale during a Princeton U alumni event in about 1973.   US Amateur Champ, 2 time Sr. Amateur champ, President of the USGA, he was also became the Third United States citizen who became Captain of the R and A.  The members noted that historically many R and A members are also Elie members which may have been the reason that Campbell joined the club.


The comment about the lack of definition visually off the tee obscures how interesting the course actually is, and how tricky the shots are into the greens, especially with any wind and the interesting and unusual angles that the greens are canted.


By the way, I think the main hill at Elie is actually an escarpment, especially when you seen how it ascends as it approaches the Firth of Forth.


I am eager to return.




Bill


Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 12, 2016, 10:36:40 AM
Earlsferry Thistle Golf Club still very much exists.  It has a modest clubhouse which is the white building to the right of the 18th tee.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on July 14, 2016, 01:15:28 PM
Dear Rich Goodale,


Thank you for the elusive Elie story.


I love the honest golf at Elie with so many run away greens. But, as much as I admire Elie it is not true links land. I think the natural links lands that connect Lundin and Leven and the Old Tom Morris holes there are damn near the finest golf holes in Fife.


Just my own opinion!


Best!


Malcolm

Malcolm

If its any consolation...I didn't think Elie was terribly linksy.  There looks to be a significant percentage of meadow grass about the place.  It doesn't matter much to me though because the design is wonderful.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Malcolm Mckinnon on July 15, 2016, 12:13:48 AM
Sean,


Thanks!


When are you going to hit Pitreavie?


I thought that I might stir up something here regarding what what actually is Links land.


I guess that I will try again!! 



Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Carl Johnson on July 15, 2016, 03:46:13 PM
Elie was the first course I'd ever played in Brittan (year 2000).  It wasn't on our schedule, but our driver from the Edinburgh airport to St. Andrews suggested we stop off and try to play.  It wasn't a visitors day, but there had just been a torrential downpour and the course was deserted, so they let us go off.  It was 4:00 p.m.  It was an enjoyable round and a nice intro to Scotland golf.  Thanks for the photos and memories.  And one of our four ball did hit one way right from the first tee.  Never found, we surmised it had crossed the wall into the pasture.  And other interesting tidbit, the starter insisted on giving us a description of how to play every hole.  No way we'd remember all of that
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 16, 2016, 01:40:05 AM
Carl,


Right of the wall on the first isn't a pasture, it's a nine hole children's course.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Carl Johnson on July 16, 2016, 10:34:00 PM
Carl,


Right of the wall on the first isn't a pasture, it's a nine hole children's course.
Mark, I saw tall grass and assumed pasture.  Maybe there was some tall grass near the wall.  Just looked on google map satellite and saw the other course. Is it the Elie Sports Club 9-hole course, which appears to be nearby?
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 17, 2016, 03:58:04 AM
Carl, yes, that's right.  The first fairways of the two courses are adjacent, with the wall and a narrow strip of rough separating them.  Both are OOB on the other course.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on July 19, 2016, 02:45:20 AM
The comment about the lack of definition visually off the tee obscures how interesting the course actually is, and how tricky the shots are into the greens, especially with any wind and the interesting and unusual angles that the greens are canted.

Bill

I agree completely with this comment.  Most holes have something sneaky happening for the approach...sometimes in combination with slide away greens.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 19, 2016, 03:55:35 AM
Playing in strong wind from the back tees on Saturday the course really showed its teeth.  Only three players in a field of 100 managed net scores of par or better.


Sean is right about the approaches.  Almost every green has a trick to approaching it.  Members know that the ball will work in from the left on 1, you can fly it to the green on 2 but short of any flag, work it in from short left on 3, be the right side of the ridge on 4, work it in from short right on 5, land it short on 6 and use the slope, etc., etc.


Like all good links, how to play it is very wind dependant.  In my previous round there 17 had been three good blows to reach into an East wind.  On Saturday, a slightly mis-hit drive and a wedge.  These changes in wind can also make a huge difference to how to approach a green.  6, which slopes steeply away, can be attacked by flying the ball to the pin in a strong west wind, where in still conditions on a dry, firm and fast day, you'll land the ball short of the green to get even to a back pin position.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Thomas Dai on July 19, 2016, 07:24:32 AM
Holes/shots with a "Lack of definition" can be pretty difficult what with aim, alignment, direction, landing area etc issues. Bit like putting on an allegedly perfectly flat green...it never is.
Atb
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on July 20, 2016, 07:12:01 PM

Almost every green has a trick to approaching it.  Members know that the ball will work in from the left on 1, you can fly it to the green on 2 but short of any flag, work it in from short left on 3, be the right side of the ridge on 4, work it in from short right on 5, land it short on 6 and use the slope, etc., etc.


I did find 6 puzzling because I thought I hit a cracker well short of the green and it failed to even make the green let alone scare the hole.  The day before my approach jumped hard and finished on the 10th tee.


#1 is tricky too because the approach plays downhill, but the green is decidedly uphill.  In the lush conditions should have thrown the ball more near the hole rather than trying for kick up...got stung twice.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 21, 2016, 02:26:01 AM
6 really is difficult to judge.  Even the slightest breeze seems to affect how the ball will react on landing on the downslope, as will the condition of the greens.  it is also a bit of a poster boy for the importance of trajectory.  A high, soft landing ball into a breeze may hold up at the front of the green.  A low flighted ball landing in the same spot in the same breeze may run through the back.  1 is very deceptive but i have learned that it is best approached by running the ball in from short left.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on July 22, 2016, 05:25:11 AM
Mark

Instead of limiting oneself to a side, wouldn't it be more prudent to fly the 1st green...assuming one can?

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 22, 2016, 08:09:30 AM
Into a wind, maybe.  However, a mid-iron, with a breeze helping will likely run through, if the green is reasonably firm.  Remember that the front portion of the green runs away from you.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on July 26, 2016, 05:26:28 AM
Okay, we had completely different conditions.  Balls were pulling up on the front of the green despite the downhill nature of the shot.  As I say, that was my only beef with Elie, it wasn't very linksy at all...played like a parkland course.  I do wonder if the high holes closer to the house were ever proper links. 

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 26, 2016, 04:49:46 PM
That sounds unusually soft.


I know what you mean about 1 and 2 but don't really mins as I like both holes a lot.  18 is definitely linksy, if you walk along the path alongside it it's almost pure sand.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on July 28, 2016, 03:54:26 AM
Mark

Elie definitely didn't express itself as links when I was there...I think the rough was very telling.  Though the greens were fine, just needed to be cut as they were sluggish.  With all those front to back greens a bit of speed wouldn't go amiss. 

However, I would happily return.  Is Elie one of your favourites?

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 31, 2016, 11:48:05 AM
I'm always slightly wary of trying to "rate" courses I have an attachment to but yes, Elie would certainly be one of my favourites.  Lots of really fun holes and fun shots, enough challenge, great charm, very few, if any, weak holes.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on May 27, 2018, 08:27:26 AM
And return I did!  After the disappointment of the white out in March, I joined three Pests for a game.  The marvelous FBD walked the course, claiming he was too injured to play.  It can sometimes be the case that the initial visit clouds one's vision, but that was certainly not the case regarding Elie.  I liked it as much as two years ago.  See the updated tour.

www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63182.msg1504482.html#msg1504482 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63182.msg1504482.html#msg1504482)

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on May 27, 2018, 08:55:38 AM
Sean,


I’m returning for the first time in 17 years this Sunday. Looking forward to it.


Ally
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ken Moum on May 27, 2018, 10:22:04 AM
And return I did!  After the disappointment of the white out in March, I joined three Pests for a game.  The marvelous FBD walked the course, claiming he was too injured to play.  It can sometimes be the case that the initial visit clouds one's vision, but that was certainly not the case regarding Elie.  I liked as much as two years ago.  See the updated tour.

www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63182.msg1504482.html#msg1504482 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63182.msg1504482.html#msg1504482)

Ciao


Not so surprisingly, on my second trip there I wasn't as enamored as the first time.  But it was entirely down to my putrid driving that kept me in almost unplayable long grass.... whenever it was within driving distance.


Nevertheless, I love Elie for one of its most endearing properties.  The difference in length between holes of the same par figure. I've said for years that my favorite courses often have ~100 yards difference between the shortest and longest par fives and  par threes, and as least 200 yards variation in the par fours.


With two par threes  of 131 and 214, Elie makes it. 


But among its SIXTEEN par fours there's the 252-yard seventh and the 466-yard 12th.


As a short hitter, I find too many courses of "reasonable" length to offer a procession of par fours in the 350 to 380 range.  And while those are "short" par fours, I end up hitting hybrids and fairway wood to most of them.  Give me 250 and 450 any day over a pair of 350s.....


K
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on May 30, 2018, 06:12:46 AM
And return I did!  After the disappointment of the white out in March, I joined three Pests for a game.  The marvelous FBD walked the course, claiming he was too injured to play.  It can sometimes be the case that the initial visit clouds one's vision, but that was certainly not the case regarding Elie.  I liked as much as two years ago.  See the updated tour.

www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63182.msg1504482.html#msg1504482 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63182.msg1504482.html#msg1504482)

Ciao

Not so surprisingly, on my second trip there I wasn't as enamored as the first time.  But it was entirely down to my putrid driving that kept me in almost unplayable long grass.... whenever it was within driving distance.

Nevertheless, I love Elie for one of its most endearing properties.  The difference in length between holes of the same par figure. I've said for years that my favorite courses often have ~100 yards difference between the shortest and longest par fives and  par threes, and as least 200 yards variation in the par fours.

With two par threes  of 131 and 214, Elie makes it. 

But among its SIXTEEN par fours there's the 252-yard seventh and the 466-yard 12th.

As a short hitter, I find too many courses of "reasonable" length to offer a procession of par fours in the 350 to 380 range.  And while those are "short" par fours, I end up hitting hybrids and fairway wood to most of them.  Give me 250 and 450 any day over a pair of 350s.....

K

Ken

Elie could do better on controlling the rough, though generally its alright. 

I tend to agree that a wide spread between yardages within par groups is an enviable trait. 

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on May 21, 2019, 12:12:53 AM
Elie is hell bent on enforcing their arcane rules. As far as I am concerned, they may be part of the reason there is a thread about Scottish golf being in trouble.

Our luggage did not make it with us to Scotland, and my son wore fashionable stretch denim Jean's on the plane for comfort so he did not have his golfing pants to wear. No matter that half the eight or so lads and gents gathered by the first tee were more shoddy in appearance with their old corduroy pants and such. No excuses accepted, and a shallow lecture on tradition was what we got. So their shop made a sale of one pair of pants, which resulted in them no having a chance to sell four meals, and no prospect of at least two of us returning.

If they had some brains they would know their stupid rule was made for the Levi's of old, and enforce it appropriately.

Too bad I'm not a Twitter user so I can excoriate them there too.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Scott Warren on May 21, 2019, 12:44:42 AM
That’s really good intel, Garland. I am flying north tomorrow morning for a quick golf trip that begins at Elie. I will leave my Metallica t-shirt out of my bag.

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on May 21, 2019, 01:43:45 AM
Elie is hell bent on enforcing their arcane rules. As far as I am concerned, they may be part of the reason there is a thread about Scottish golf being in trouble.

Our luggage did not make it with us to Scotland, and my son wore fashionable stretch denim Jean's on the plane for comfort so he did not have his golfing pants to wear. No matter that half the eight or so lads and gents gathered by the first tee were more shoddy in appearance with their old corduroy pants and such. No excuses accepted, and a shallow lecture on tradition was what we got. So their shop made a sale of one pair of pants, which resulted in them no having a chance to sell four meals, and no prospect of at least two of us returning.

If they had some brains they would know their stupid rule was made for the Levi's of old, and enforce it appropriately.

Too bad I'm not a Twitter user so I can excoriate them there too.


While I have some sympathy for your situation, I might suggest you are looking at this situation in a skewed light. Everybody thinks they are special and deserve exemptions from rules and sometimes laws. Instead of getting angry at club employees for enforcing club rules , maybe this was a teachable moment. You, a seasoned traveller, might have suggested to your son that should the luggage not arrive and given the circumstances of choosing to play golf at a club with a stringent (and well known) dress  code, that perhaps it is wise to pack certain items in the carry on bag and wear certain items on the plane.

Live and learn.

Ciao
 
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on May 21, 2019, 02:27:42 AM
No Sean, everyone does not think they are special and deserve exemptions from rules. Suggesting so might just indicate what you think.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on May 21, 2019, 03:01:23 AM
No Sean, everyone does not think they are special and deserve exemptions from rules. Suggesting so might just indicate what you think.

Ooookaay then. I guess getting angry it is. Lovely course though?

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jon Wiggett on May 21, 2019, 03:54:48 AM

Garland,


it is what it is my friend. Whilst there are many clubs/courses where playing in denim is allowed many do not. It is a rule which the members of the club decide upon and neither club officials nor employees are in a position to make exemptions. A possible solution might have been to where waterproof bottoms if denim was not banned in the clubhouse.


I doubt the people you talked with wanted to upset you or your son nor that the club made their rules with such an intent It is not worth getting too upset about try to enjoy the rest of your trip,


Jon
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: BHoover on May 21, 2019, 07:57:39 AM
I have found the internet to be a useful resource. Quite often it is possible to read about the course dress code beforehand.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jay Mickle on May 21, 2019, 08:44:53 AM
You, a seasoned traveller, might have suggested to your son that should the luggage not arrive and given the circumstances of choosing to play golf at a club with a stringent (and well known) dress  code, that perhaps it is wise to pack certain items in the carry on bag and wear certain items on the plane.
Live and learn.


Arrived at Bandon a number of years ago without luggage. Was easy to rent clubs but comfortable size 13 shoes were an issue. When my luggage arrived the following my feet were already quite sore. Fortunatly I have experience with hoof issues and made appropriate orthotics to get through 54,36,54 and 18, But a lesson well learned. Always carry what you require for golf in your carry on.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Rich Goodale on May 21, 2019, 09:40:52 AM
I'm sitting in front of my Florida world, looking at the sturdy knee high socks which I purchased when first playing in the Elie Links Championship back in the day.  They cost me 25 squid, and I was honoured to have played that day with the person who still holds the lowest score of 65 (I believe) for the qualifying for match play.


Please man up guys and gals here who believe that "fashionable stretch denim Jean's" are nothing more than a transatlantic oxymoron......

[/size]Rich[/color]
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Marty Bonnar on May 21, 2019, 09:58:54 AM
I'm sitting in front of my Florida world, looking at the sturdy knee high socks which I purchased when first playing in the Elie Links Championship back in the day.  They cost me 25 squid, and I was honoured to have played that day with the person who still holds the lowest score of 65 (I believe) for the qualifying for match play.


Please man up guys and gals here who believe that "fashionable stretch denim Jean's" are nothing more than a transatlantic oxymoron......

Rich


I'm hoping at least one of us will be wearing shorts and socks when the elite band of GCAers play it tomorrow!
F.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: James Brown on May 21, 2019, 11:51:34 AM
What a shame for anyone to divorce themselves from Elie over having to buy pants because you lost our luggage. 


I lost my whole kit with Air Canada for the first two days of a trip to Cabot last summer and was faced with the prospect the first day of buying a rain suit off the rack to play with rentals in a rainstorm.  And now I have 2 rain suits and a great story. 


The thought of traveling so far for destination golf and then getting hamstrung over clothing and equipment is alien to me. 


Fore!
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Niall C on May 21, 2019, 12:02:00 PM
With respect to Garland and others, I think there is a tendency for visitors (both UK and foreign) to forget that in the UK they are generally playing at a members club and not just some pay and play facility. Folk just seem to take access for granted over here when in fact they are privileged to be able to play the course and and enjoy the clubhouse as visitors. If you look at it in that way then I think some would be a bit more respectful of the club rules, which in effect are the rules of the members.


Niall
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill Crane on May 21, 2019, 01:37:24 PM
With respect to Garland and others, I think there is a tendency for visitors (both UK and foreign) to forget that in the UK they are generally playing at a members club and not just some pay and play facility. Folk just seem to take access for granted over here when in fact they are privileged to be able to play the course and and enjoy the clubhouse as visitors. If you look at it in that way then I think some would be a bit more respectful of the club rules, which in effect are the rules of the members.

Niall

I think this comment is entirely true.  When we were fortunate to play there I got the impression that there are a number of R & A members for which GHC Elie is a second club.
In the US you would not even be able to play a private club of this caliber without the support of a member or a call from your golf professional - and sometimes even that will not get you on.   
Those type of rules may be traditional and longstanding, but it is their club and they preserve what they want.
Will these type of traditions hold back golf in the UK and the US?
Perhaps, but golf may just not be for everyone.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Daryl David on May 21, 2019, 05:31:21 PM
What a shame for anyone to divorce themselves from Elie over having to buy pants because you lost our luggage. 


I lost my whole kit with Air Canada for the first two days of a trip to Cabot last summer and was faced with the prospectThe thought of traveling so far for destination golf and then getting hamstrung over clothing and equipment is alien to me. 


Fore!


Two words. Ship Sticks
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on May 21, 2019, 05:52:43 PM
I'm sitting in front of my Florida world, looking at the sturdy knee high socks which I purchased when first playing in the Elie Links Championship back in the day.  They cost me 25 squid, and I was honoured to have played that day with the person who still holds the lowest score of 65 (I believe) for the qualifying for match play.


Please man up guys and gals here who believe that "fashionable stretch denim Jean's" are nothing more than a transatlantic oxymoron......

[/size]Rich[/color]

I am aware of the dress code. There was no attempt to circumvent it, other than the misfortune of having baggage mishandled. I have played a few events with you Rich, and I have read the dress codes of the places where were playing. I was surprised that you were the most egregious violator of the dress codes for the KP event, and wondered how you got away with it. I suppose if you are in the know, you know who enforces and who doesn't.

Many of the courses state they require a handicap card to play them. I have carried my freshly printed handicap card with me every time I have come to play in the British Isles. Not one single course has asked me to see it. Am I supposed to call every club where I play and ask whether they really need the handicap card? I carried the letter of introduction from my club to Royal Portrush. No one asked me to see it. Am I supposed to call Royal Portrush and ask if they really want the letter they so adamantly insist on on their website? Am I supposed to call every club where I play and ask if they really enforce their dress code, because by far most have the code on the books but you can see they don't enforce it by what other players there are wearing.

There are plenty of places I would rather play than Elie, so I have no worries about swearing I won't be back. It after all is a long and tiresome trip. I can use less tiresome hosts.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ken Moum on May 21, 2019, 05:56:34 PM


I'm hoping at least one of us will be wearing shorts and socks when the elite band of GCAers play it tomorrow!
F.


One of my enduring, and favorite, memories of playing Scotland is the first time I played Elie.


Ahead of us on the course were several groups of teenagers all of whom were wearing shorts.  Seeing how sharp (now there's an old word) those young men looked made a real impression on both my wife and me.


I especially liked the ones who were wearing kilt socks.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jon Wiggett on May 22, 2019, 11:58:40 AM


Many of the courses state they require a handicap card to play them. I have carried my freshly printed handicap card with me every time I have come to play in the British Isles. Not one single course has asked me to see it. Am I supposed to call every club where I play and ask whether they really need the handicap card? I carried the letter of introduction from my club to Royal Portrush. No one asked me to see it. Am I supposed to call Royal Portrush and ask if they really want the letter they so adamantly insist on on their website? Am I supposed to call every club where I play and ask if they really enforce their dress code, because by far most have the code on the books but you can see they don't enforce it by what other players there are wearing.

There are plenty of places I would rather play than Elie, so I have no worries about swearing I won't be back. It after all is a long and tiresome trip. I can use less tiresome hosts.



Garland,


you are correct that many clubs do require a handicap in order to play and the occasional club still insists on a letter of introduction. The fact that they might not ask a visitor to produce them is more a sign that they believe a visitor to be an honest person who would be in possession of the necessary document and be able to produce said document if needed. It is certainly not that they do not want to enforce this rule whilst enforcing others. The reason they enforced the dress rule was because it is obvious to all when someone is wearing a pair of denim trousers though even here as I have already mentioned if covered by a pair of waterproof trousers I am pretty certain that would have been okay.


You seem hell bent on blaming the club for sticking to the rules set by their membership. The club did not loose you clubs and clothes.


Jon
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on May 22, 2019, 05:09:29 PM
Jon,

As I pointed out in my original message, golf is sending the wrong message by exclusionary actions based on trivial things like capricious dress code details. This is not the first time this website has heard about it, as I have seen many such statements here.

In a later message I indicated that I have many options to play and few opportunities to do so, therefore, it presents no problem to me to skip playing Elie in the future. For example, I would be just as happy playing the Eden course multiple times over returning to Elie. It is Elie's loss of income, but no loss to me. And, I believe Eden would not have enforced the dress code since the Castle Course did not enforce such a dress code the day before.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jon Wiggett on May 23, 2019, 03:43:03 AM

Garland,


Eden and the Castle course are both municipals where as Elie is a private so a different kettle of fish.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: BHoover on May 23, 2019, 07:27:50 AM
I can’t help it, I find this tantrum hilarious.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on May 23, 2019, 05:08:32 PM

Garland,


Eden and the Castle course are both municipals where as Elie is a private so a different kettle of fish.

??? What's your point? ???
I am interested in what I enjoy playing, not whether they are private or public.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill Gayne on May 23, 2019, 09:18:44 PM
I can’t help it, I find this tantrum hilarious.


+1 Someone needs to put on their big boy pants.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jim Sherma on May 23, 2019, 10:22:44 PM
I can’t help it, I find this tantrum hilarious.


+1 Someone needs to put on their big boy pants.


Hopefully they aren’t spandex-ed denim.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: James Brown on May 23, 2019, 11:08:09 PM
What a shame for anyone to divorce themselves from Elie over having to buy pants because you lost our luggage. 


I lost my whole kit with Air Canada for the first two days of a trip to Cabot last summer and was faced with the prospectThe thought of traveling so far for destination golf and then getting hamstrung over clothing and equipment is alien to me. 


Fore!


Two words. Ship Sticks


I was right on the line.  For the UK, yes 100%.  I just thought Canada was the 51st state...
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jon Wiggett on May 24, 2019, 02:40:47 AM

Garland,


Eden and the Castle course are both municipals where as Elie is a private so a different kettle of fish.

 ??? What's your point? ???
I am interested in what I enjoy playing, not whether they are private or public.



Please Garland,


you should know that a muni in the UK will almost always allow denim on the course but most private members clubs (except in the Highlands) do not. I did have some sympathy for your situation at the start but I think I just lost it.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on May 24, 2019, 04:07:44 AM
Jon,

Since I never wear denim playing golf, and my son had no intention to do so, I just don't understand your concern for public vs. Private.

I have flown a lot in my life on North American and Asian based airline without a single luggage problem. However, I have flown just twice with European airlines, and both times the luggage hasn't made it. Perhaps the solution is to avoid European based airlines.  ;D
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill Gayne on May 24, 2019, 05:31:25 AM
Garland,


I've met you and you seemed to be a reasonable person so I offer this advice. Leave this thread and mini rant of yours.


Start a new thread about your trip: where did you play? what did you like and learn about GCA? It will be like chicken soup for your soul and others will help.


Bill
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Chaplin on May 24, 2019, 05:58:25 AM
Garland when I flew USA to UK on a European airline, I was delayed 24 hours, I got a hotel room and $700 cash compensation. Had the same flight been in United, Delta or AA I’d have got nothing. There’s a good reason to fly European airlines and use ShipSticks.  ;D


As for Ellie they have a waiting list for membership so there is clearly support for the dress code.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ira Fishman on May 24, 2019, 08:28:32 AM
I do not think that this will make Garland feel better, but members at Congressional love to tell the story about the starter not allowing Michael Jordan to play in Cargo Pants.  The amazing thing is not that they would not let MJ play in them but that they actually had pants in the shop that fit him.


Ira
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Peter Pallotta on May 24, 2019, 11:33:01 AM
I'd read that story, and my first & only thought was: 'What the hell is MJ doing in *cargo pants*?!'
Jimmy Demaret - tailored sportswear in the finest materials from the best NYC makers
Ben Hogan - custom made leather footwear from the high streets of far away Great Britain
Arnold Palmer - buying dozens of his favourite stiff-collared golf shirts just on the off-chance that they'd one day go out of production
And MJ, with a net worth many times that of all those great golfers combined, shows up in cargo pants?
To paraphrase something Tarantino might write:
'Those better have been the goddamned best motherfu--ing pair of cargo pants in the whole fu--ing history of cargo pants!'



Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on May 24, 2019, 01:18:33 PM
Sadly half this thread is now nonsense and noise.


Ellie was playing fully "Linksy" this week. It offers EVERYTHING I want from a course and after 5 rounds there it leaps into the top 5 courses that I want to play over and over.

Is any higher praise possible?

Go play and reflect carefully. Do not patronise this as 'holiday golf'. It's the real deal(sic).

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Thomas Dai on May 24, 2019, 02:08:33 PM
‘Holiday golf’, an expression often used inappropriately in relation to U.K. golf where the majority of clubs have numerous members, often the majority, who live close by 365 days per year.
Atb
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on May 24, 2019, 06:14:29 PM
Garland,

I was so sorry to hear from others of this thread and your unsatisfactory experience.  As a proud member of the Golf House Club it is, of course, extremely disappointing to hear that an unaccompanied American visitor has had such an unsatisfying experience.  I will take this matter up with the committee.
What I propose to suggest is that the club conducts an urgent and complete review of the way it deals with unaccompanied visitor play.  In doing that, I will ask them to pay particular attention to how US private clubs treat unaccompanied visitor play.  Given Elie's prestige and history and(as has been pointed to already in this thread, it's strong connections with the R&A), we will, I am sure, take soundings from clubs such as Seminole, San Francisco Golf Club and Pine Valley and learn from the way those clubs would have handled an unaccompanied visitor in stretch denim.  I have little doubt that the club will learn from this episode.  It seems to me that the only way forward for the club will be to adopt the stance of those US private clubs and ban unaccompanied visitor play completely.  I'm sure you'll agree that is the only way forward for private UK clubs to avoid inconveniencing people like you and your son in future.
As to your concern that Elie and its traditions are killing junior golf in Scotland.  We struggle along with just 160 junior members and the waiting list for membership is just a couple of years, so I will bring this to the urgent attention of the committee.

Finally, I’m delighted to see that you have been able to see the bigger picture.  Rather than take your anger and frustration on the airline, who, after all, did nothing wrong other than lose your baggage, you have seen the important issue and focussed in on it.  A lesser man might even have thought of asking the airline to pay for the cost of those trousers.

Yours Respectfully,
Mark
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: BHoover on May 24, 2019, 09:40:31 PM
Garland,
I was so sorry to hear from others of this thread and your unsatisfactory experience.  As a proud member of the Golf House Club it is, of course, extremely disappointing to hear that an unaccompanied American visitor has had such an unsatisfying experience.  I will take this matter up with the committee.
What I propose to suggest is that the club conducts an urgent and complete review of the way it deals with unaccompanied visitor play.  In doing that, I will ask them to pay particular attention to how US private clubs treat unaccompanied visitor play.  Given Elie's prestige and history and(as has been pointed to already in this thread, it's strong connections with the R&A), we will, I am sure, take soundings from clubs such as Seminole, San Francisco Golf Club and Pine Valley and learn from the way those clubs would have handled an unaccompanied visitor in stretch denim.  I have little doubt that the club will learn from this episode.  It seems to me that the only way forward for the club will be to adopt the stance of those US private clubs and ban unaccompanied visitor play completely.  I'm sure you'll agree that is the only way forward for private UK clubs to avoid inconveniencing people like you and your son in future.
As to your concern that Elie and its traditions are killing junior golf in Scotland.  We struggle along with just 160 junior members and the waiting list for membership is just a couple of years, so I will bring this to the urgent attention of the committee.
Finally, I’m delighted to see that you have been able to see the bigger picture.  Rather than take your anger and frustration on the airline, who, after all, did nothing wrong other than lose your baggage, you have seen the important issue and focussed in on it.  A lesser man might even have thought of asking the airline to pay for the cost of those trousers.
Yours Respectfully,
Mark


Post of the year candidate. Well done, sir!
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on May 25, 2019, 01:59:34 AM

Please Garland,


you should know that a muni in the UK will almost always allow denim on the course



I rocked up at my local muni at Altrincham last night after work for a quick nine holes. I was wearing my jeans and asked about dress code as I paid my eight quid.

Suffice to say I changed into my golf pants in the car park!
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Scott Warren on May 25, 2019, 03:14:34 AM
Mark,


A fine post and tremendous that all at The Golf House Club have reflected on the diplomatic incident they caused and sought to find a better way forward.


Of course, it will be a blow for the many visiting Americans who have, for several hundred years, been visiting the club without issue. But you’re absolutely right that if the club must learn from this experience.


Please could you also ensure you let us know the outcome of the starter’s disciplinary hearing?
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Chaplin on May 25, 2019, 03:46:46 AM
If Garland comes to Deal I will personally ensure a corner and lots of teddies are provided so he can throw away at his leisure.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Adam Lawrence on May 25, 2019, 05:17:50 AM

Please Garland,


you should know that a muni in the UK will almost always allow denim on the course



I rocked up at my local muni at Altrincham last night after work for a quick nine holes. I was wearing my jeans and asked about dress code as I paid my eight quid.

Suffice to say I changed into my golf pants in the car park!


You removed your trousers in the car park? I hope to God there weren't any ladies present, it could have caused a riot.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on May 25, 2019, 07:13:10 AM
Scott,


The starter is a fine man and long standing servant of the club.  He will, I am sure, understand the hurt his enforcement of these rules has caused.  I have little doubt that he will do the right thing and avoid the need for the unpleasantness of a hearing.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Stan Dodd on May 25, 2019, 10:11:55 AM
My first play of Elie, I turned up in tailored shorts, but with American style socks.  I was informed that I would need "proper" socks to play.  I joyfully paid 20 quid for my long socks.  Enjoyed the round very much and the long socks gave my buddies plenty to talk about.  It just added to the memories of a great day.  I play Elie any chance I get.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: John Mayhugh on May 25, 2019, 03:08:41 PM
With respect to Garland and others, I think there is a tendency for visitors (both UK and foreign) to forget that in the UK they are generally playing at a members club and not just some pay and play facility. Folk just seem to take access for granted over here when in fact they are privileged to be able to play the course and and enjoy the clubhouse as visitors. If you look at it in that way then I think some would be a bit more respectful of the club rules, which in effect are the rules of the members.

Niall's is a very clear explanation.

The members of the club have decided that they prefer to be more traditional. I played there on Wednesday, and the day was so nice I decided to wear shorts. The hose I bought to comply with their rules only cost $6, and I had no objection to wearing them. This was my second visit to Elie. I was treated the same as an unaccompanied single as I was when I was part of a member's group, which speaks well of the club. In general, I've found essentially all UK clubs to be welcoming. It seems a small expectation for a visitor to simply abide by the same rules that the members have to follow.


Hopefully Elie will still be a viable club the next time I'm in Fife. I would love to return.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mike Sweeney on May 25, 2019, 04:02:09 PM
The hose I bought to comply with their rules only cost $6, and I had no objection to wearing them.


In order to facilitate transatlantic relations, I think a John Mayhugh "quirk picture" of John Mayhugh is said socks is needed!!


I support all forms of kooky dress codes as these help make our sport of golf unique in the world. We can also learn from our friends at Wembley (Crew), which is hosting their own Kings Cup in July:


(https://navysports.com/common/controls/image_handler.aspx?thumb_id=13&image_path=/images/2019/5/22/US_Kings_Badges.jpg)



Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: John Mayhugh on May 25, 2019, 04:27:27 PM
Mike,
I don't think anyone took one. I was in a blue short, lighter blue shorts, red hose, and white golf shoes. Pearce is always fond of the red, white & blue combo.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on May 25, 2019, 05:15:50 PM
Garland,

I was so sorry to hear from others of this thread and your unsatisfactory experience.  As a proud member of the Golf House Club it is, of course, extremely disappointing to hear that an unaccompanied American visitor has had such an unsatisfying experience.  I will take this matter up with the committee.
What I propose to suggest is that the club conducts an urgent and complete review of the way it deals with unaccompanied visitor play.  In doing that, I will ask them to pay particular attention to how US private clubs treat unaccompanied visitor play.  Given Elie's prestige and history and(as has been pointed to already in this thread, it's strong connections with the R&A), we will, I am sure, take soundings from clubs such as Seminole, San Francisco Golf Club and Pine Valley and learn from the way those clubs would have handled an unaccompanied visitor in stretch denim.  I have little doubt that the club will learn from this episode.  It seems to me that the only way forward for the club will be to adopt the stance of those US private clubs and ban unaccompanied visitor play completely.  I'm sure you'll agree that is the only way forward for private UK clubs to avoid inconveniencing people like you and your son in future.
As to your concern that Elie and its traditions are killing junior golf in Scotland.  We struggle along with just 160 junior members and the waiting list for membership is just a couple of years, so I will bring this to the urgent attention of the committee.

Finally, I’m delighted to see that you have been able to see the bigger picture.  Rather than take your anger and frustration on the airline, who, after all, did nothing wrong other than lose your baggage, you have seen the important issue and focussed in on it.  A lesser man might even have thought of asking the airline to pay for the cost of those trousers.

Yours Respectfully,
Mark

Thanks Mark,

That brought a smile to my face.

AARGH! Getting old means goofing up on posts. Mark, I appreciate your humor and meant to say so, but messed up the original version of this post.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on May 25, 2019, 05:23:40 PM
Mike,
I don't think anyone took one. I was in a blue short, lighter blue shorts, red hose, and white golf shoes. Pearce is always fond of the red, white & blue ensamble.
I'll stand in for you, John, with my Red, White and Blue combo...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qhsJrMpqEo7YXlc6ApTP586nj3bFIbTuH2UdVf-2MXNzXCEV-HU2X7gNDI781fgk6etHMzpkMMPzjB3CdIMhX55ma3-nk4-TQNildqX-FkydpqxrYyDFMEfRh-qDxEgcWo8p3E98WmbD62u_g6hGUzFey_Go6uQ0utiCeOZTBKR2cV85qS5k_LYwAgh1yGEIwjZ88_ZdhYVWrCgy37Ik22lMnDz7KW1JcQ4wujP6WF9Ccg2KubbBEUQHNsPgrvUO9twCexfLs5bqnN3cBYUejv4E43CZH2AZ6uWLSkTS7fPmdRTjnTIr8Ak2ZU3YGgcHU5I3nDiTvGXWaxRhRNilVzEAzgGXaNVEnAZ79Tpzl8KRvgKHcNmQqb5qnJPEyDQ6dHaH8cvk7NmGFoADc-SaRQXrcBzC06yQhfU1vpxETBDA5IsRutd7lJS9qJ6BUM4U3fbiX5UAPALJwY2qvCspg3JY7pu_APWngUaCK0m1YuvS0R8AZ9cyhiDYPu9nPjCgXDddwRRauWom2tqa3pOSD7A030Jti7j036dBy0Da1sml8ZNu1idk-SM3gyMTpPj8fdNKY_yaHGCmnmET81u-a88Yzq0F8H2IGO6e-Qxyfdc2eQVDM3q_qgQaWrR-BCe9URGxB4exEf0nG0GE2jXtPvWdUZ8wwmk=w1260-h945-no)
By the way... this is from the Buda at St Enodoc.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Marty Bonnar on May 25, 2019, 05:29:18 PM
Mike,
I don't think anyone took one. I was in a blue short, lighter blue shorts, red hose, and white golf shoes. Pearce is always fond of the red, white & blue combo.


Being forced to observe the Mayhugh/Pearce colour combo from adjacent fairways induced at least one Scintillating Scotoma episode in my optic nerve.
The combined effect of the vivid colours, their erratic jerky swings and the speed of their incredibly fast play created an atmosphere so psychedelic that Hunter S. Thomson would have felt very much at home.
I hear the Military want to speak with these gentlemen for advice on camouflage. They're looking at resurrecting the old wartime Dazzle Ships and want to employ the same jarring rainbow of ill-advised hues and tones.
At least their socks were of the correct length though, so they've got that going for them.
Love,
F.

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on May 25, 2019, 05:35:06 PM
But, this is my favorite combo... the famous Royal Cinque Ports stripes!

The power of the Deal Stripes allowed me to chop down the mighty oak which is Ben Stephens at Hollinwell!!!  ;D

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PCnB2hltfDWMp7jmvhESbudVDVnamot_CRSO7r7LrhY4SszbTB66lfnpNRco2rDPHcZ8MqmnLzsA2VxKs4PdAVuODKvYpgyz0YIQfwLIaQVMEF3lo8wmWzUNUfs60C1ccVA3S3qNxmRj9A8w-auZCZKhCbkmG879yJEuoMjth3zb3s-lBLkdxjLGuvjKCLf-vap0-2TERG-IYPSHrnYIh9m6s1MIbTeavzmZWZNm8png6O1M3EXSWvNRO3PowQtloxMnMqy0bJkWvcNFeOAGI6LQdZ9VRM74JVsLbIjVxQsw_4s40j-vZx_nLFIMKv8aMFZ3gwddBcFzPLDTOpgNFdnvOz4lCGlKk_iO3dhCGBotDlwIpb9QjqUfFZJzKZClTwdtxuXOb_ifguzw9kGhwStX9fMw9q_13QfUkmEZ2Wgn1t1Qg-nyBJZtMZ4ZUqAVoMxP1aPsGG_z1gxhP4o2nxU4c8xzkoYalO1srv8_ziWrexVxzgXAX_VC3XbHVKPU0toNKtOCSiYDyfrbep9zE5WZLmJkg7fRaKRRNw3bhlD5k-OUbpOl2tBXvg_iy3bZzmbh4Zi6e1EgwWMbch9qzijarRlkhyTit9W3FyJLKyqMp5XtS_VWReCXQPLkMVeO5sHNgj8eQap86X45bk_qx7CcmjQwX_c=w1259-h944-no)
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Marty Bonnar on May 25, 2019, 05:40:43 PM
Mike,
On the upside, your socks appear to have scared away the UFO hovering above the trees there.
Once again, the world owes you a debt of gratitude for averting the threat of an impending alien invasion.
Many thanks,
With love,
Marty. ;D
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on May 25, 2019, 05:49:02 PM
Mike,
On the upside, your socks appear to have scared away the UFO hovering above the trees there.
Once again, the world owes you a debt of gratitude for averting the threat of an impending alien invasion.
Many thanks,
With love,
Marty. ;D
Just for that I am going with the socks every day of your participation in this year's Buda! Get ready... the power of the HOSE is on its way!
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on May 25, 2019, 06:45:50 PM
Mike,
On the upside, your socks appear to have scared away the UFO hovering above the trees there.
Once again, the world owes you a debt of gratitude for averting the threat of an impending alien invasion.
Many thanks,
With love,
Marty. ;D
Just for that I am going with the socks every day of your participation in this year's Buda! Get ready... the power of the HOSE is on its way!
I, for one, hope you have more than one pair.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mike Sweeney on May 25, 2019, 07:48:56 PM
But, this is my favorite combo... the famous Royal Cinque Ports stripes!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PCnB2hltfDWMp7jmvhESbudVDVnamot_CRSO7r7LrhY4SszbTB66lfnpNRco2rDPHcZ8MqmnLzsA2VxKs4PdAVuODKvYpgyz0YIQfwLIaQVMEF3lo8wmWzUNUfs60C1ccVA3S3qNxmRj9A8w-auZCZKhCbkmG879yJEuoMjth3zb3s-lBLkdxjLGuvjKCLf-vap0-2TERG-IYPSHrnYIh9m6s1MIbTeavzmZWZNm8png6O1M3EXSWvNRO3PowQtloxMnMqy0bJkWvcNFeOAGI6LQdZ9VRM74JVsLbIjVxQsw_4s40j-vZx_nLFIMKv8aMFZ3gwddBcFzPLDTOpgNFdnvOz4lCGlKk_iO3dhCGBotDlwIpb9QjqUfFZJzKZClTwdtxuXOb_ifguzw9kGhwStX9fMw9q_13QfUkmEZ2Wgn1t1Qg-nyBJZtMZ4ZUqAVoMxP1aPsGG_z1gxhP4o2nxU4c8xzkoYalO1srv8_ziWrexVxzgXAX_VC3XbHVKPU0toNKtOCSiYDyfrbep9zE5WZLmJkg7fRaKRRNw3bhlD5k-OUbpOl2tBXvg_iy3bZzmbh4Zi6e1EgwWMbch9qzijarRlkhyTit9W3FyJLKyqMp5XtS_VWReCXQPLkMVeO5sHNgj8eQap86X45bk_qx7CcmjQwX_c=w1259-h944-no)


Fabulous.


Son #1 has been lobbying me to be open to white shoes for some time now. Whit in white shoes and RCP Stripes pretty much kills any objections!!
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: James Boon on May 26, 2019, 07:26:04 AM
Its a shame that Garland didnt decide to vent his frustration somewhere other than this thread, but at least now we can be certain that no GCAer will ever turn up at Elie and be surprised about the dress code!


Having just played 2 rounds around Elie this week several things seem worth mentioning:


I didnt really pay much attention to the scorecard before or during the round, and it was only on going back over this thread that I fully took in the absence of par 5s (probably as a pair of bad drives meant I thought (hoped) the 1st was a par 5) or the small number of par 3s (just the two). What this means is that despite there being 16 par 4s, at no point did I find it repetitive, boring or get the feeling of "oh no, not another par 4". Every one of those par 4s is unique and fun.


What a set of greens! Plenty of interesting contours, humps, bowls or other exciting things going on!


As with St Andrews, Moray or a number of other Scottish courses, Elie has the feeling of starting and finishing in the centre of the town. This is very much part of the spirit of place that I love at so many Scottish links courses!


A round at Elie really does meet Lorne Smith's "Joy to be Alive" and so hopefully people can skip past some of the clothing commentary on here and get to the good stuff! Mark Pearce, you are a very lucky man to be a member at Golf House Club, Elie!!


Cheers,


James
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on May 26, 2019, 10:59:48 AM
Son #1 has been lobbying me to be open to white shoes for some time now. Whit in white shoes and RCP Stripes pretty much kills any objections!!
If the white Ecco's are good enough for Freddy they are good enough for me!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hH8eoBoFdqThtsOXO8fwSBRKN-kWO7V2w8e1TMa8Mk8oAImfnpZNtyJR9TiZtJMtSluCkXALHITp2e8-r1eYfexSvD5YJhCO9b7hWKoqnzYa5KRX31cgPFupg4tuRycZw1E-27QoGvAoLUhfuZamsOTDZ1AZWZeYNBrUURUPrKLo8ojAIoOQ0-JIIUUMqBhvR9nbmfFRZeBtlHlhKrM4WeNpMZlbnspM4Ssyfm5ijJnnsdZqWgye4M3kS-FvEnbwsQXVSu8UCHcWKqnYukd1ZN4uVJNFNllCb2QLw5g_SlWwxm8LzBj1Z2Z5ruvyv5xNt6-vZ4bEWnb_bIqWgTU6k1WS1kfVrrvZXWO7rhASpc-bwhfKmMUVs2AUkDoD7U6At8R-nXDX7xxwc_DQVjGx-RdnPRn6l2viW_EoFlAwPd_UJcG_G8FvRrts0PhldtAznX-BdYzlm5oNaWAYZi98VwXnJogRlnkG5Pw06WJ01caYIUC_FHedK36X8MsU0kyuKs_uWRnuXSBb0F3182SwIz65DckBI_T2697F0iZa9Y-XpfnaLd9MNn99fcVrYrBd5jBYxWmyNCTbT2we2fBFVHo6OPTfIGOmF6j2BBxzmF_Ai7gTXb35Z0cK7HMfezxMG6I0UCUixhfkGupaCrdvqRPmAcPQl7rz=w750-h428-no)
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on May 26, 2019, 08:11:58 PM
Elie is hell bent on enforcing their arcane rules. As far as I am concerned, they may be part of the reason there is a thread about Scottish golf being in trouble.

Our luggage did not make it with us to Scotland, and my son wore fashionable stretch denim Jean's on the plane for comfort so he did not have his golfing pants to wear. No matter that half the eight or so lads and gents gathered by the first tee were more shoddy in appearance with their old corduroy pants and such. No excuses accepted, and a shallow lecture on tradition was what we got. So their shop made a sale of one pair of pants, which resulted in them no having a chance to sell four meals, and no prospect of at least two of us returning.

If they had some brains they would know their stupid rule was made for the Levi's of old, and enforce it appropriately.

Too bad I'm not a Twitter user so I can excoriate them there too.


Assuming it was explained what had happened rather than just assumed he could play in jeans, it seems to me that the Club could have perhaps shown some flexibility and let him play. Or if jeans are so abhorrent, deduct the cost of the trousers purchased from the green-fee.


Lots of Clubs used to have waiting lists and joining fees etc and hid behind this fact whilst treating people shoddily. Funny how things change and may yet change, even at the Elie’s of this world.


Look after those on the way up, as you’ll likely meet them on the way down, as the saying goes.


Funny how other golfers take delight in someone being ticked off, turned away etc. The ‘joy to make grown men wear long socks, whilst your mongrel dog runs amok’ factor.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on May 27, 2019, 02:52:29 AM
Ryan,


Why should the club take the financial hit?  It's allowing unaccompanied visitors to play and it has a set of rules.  They should abide by them.  There is a party here that is responsible for the position Garland and his son found themselves in and which has an obligation to sort this and that's the airline.  Private members clubs are not charities.  You appear to be allowing your dislike of the traditional private members clubs to cloud your judgment on this.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mike Sweeney on May 27, 2019, 05:12:51 AM
Why should the club take the financial hit? 


Mark,


This is where I do miss Bob Huntley, as he had a gift for expressing a solution/opportunity to these types of transatlantic cultural threads. In an ever evolving transactional world, I do like to step back and think - "What would Old Tom and Uncle Bob do?"


(https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000a.MI6tZ47EA/fit=1000x750/g=G0000zzMxSOpjsS0/St-Andrews-Tom-Morris-Alex-Herd-British-Open-1900.jpg)

The good news is, this thread made me step back and decide to bring a sport coat to this weeks Ireland trip. It is not needed, but let's call it a tribute to Robert Huntley, Member of the Royal & Ancient Golf Club on Memorial Day in the USA.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-4
Post by: Sean_A on May 27, 2019, 07:27:45 AM
A new rule of thumb for me: if the tallest structure in town is still the church steeple, the adjacent golf course is sure to be a top flight charmer.

Maybe the residents of Earlsferry are not as religious as you may believe.  The tallest structure is dedicated to government in the guise of a town hall. 

In Elie there is a business which suggests Garland may be a secret admirer of the course.  I reckon it is high time to come out of the closet and be counted.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47942210503_9845541b2a_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47942210503_9845541b2a_b.jpg)

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on May 29, 2019, 07:09:31 PM
Ryan,


Why should the club take the financial hit?  It's allowing unaccompanied visitors to play and it has a set of rules.  They should abide by them.  There is a party here that is responsible for the position Garland and his son found themselves in and which has an obligation to sort this and that's the airline.  Private members clubs are not charities.  You appear to be allowing your dislike of the traditional private members clubs to cloud your judgment on this.


Unaccompanied visitors.....


Not a particularly Scottish expression.


I’ve nothing against genuinely private members clubs. Those who rely on overseas greenfees, whilst revelling in bringing down overseas visitors a peg or two, because they can play our courses, but we can’t play theirs, less so.


The approach that they ought to be grateful for the opportunity to subsidise the member subscriptions, but receive little goodwill or assistance in return, is not one I personally agree with.


I understand even Muirfield has spare jackets on hand so guests can comply with the dress code without either being turned away, or sent to the shops.


Like I say, note how often the flag is lowered and hope petty, small minded unhelpful attitudes don’t deter those coming along next.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on June 11, 2019, 04:42:07 AM
Who would have believed such a fuss could be stirred up because a dress code was enforced?  I will say it again, we all think our story carries more weight than the fella stood next to us. Most of the time folks embrace the situation, get a few photos and laugh it off in future stories. Ya gotta have a laugh. The sad part of this saga is the course wasn't enjoyed. Ya can't please all the folks all the time.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Scott Warren on June 11, 2019, 05:21:42 AM
Ryan,


The rule that applies to the member applies to the visitor. It’s exceptionally fair and reasonable.


One of my clubs is very strict with member/guest dress code, but basically allows an “anything goes” approach on Thursdays when corporate groups play on the course. It’s a significant issue and annoyance for the membership.


The simplest, most fair thing you can do is have a clear set of rules and apply them for everyone, which is what the club did in this instance.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 11, 2019, 10:43:24 PM
... The sad part of this saga is the course wasn't enjoyed. Ya can't please all the folks all the time.

Ciao

No one said the course wasn't enjoyed. I just said I would choose to play elsewhere in the future. There are plenty of other Doak 3s out there to choose from for my limited chances to cross the pond to play.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 11, 2019, 10:55:07 PM
Scott,

I don't think you got the gist of Ryan's post.

I happened to find the membership fees for Elie online. To be a "member" there costs less than a yearly pass for the public course nearest me here. Clearly the "members" there are capitalists engaged in supply and demand economics.

It seems to me that is what Ryan was getting at.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on June 12, 2019, 03:54:17 AM
Scott,

I don't think you got the gist of Ryan's post.

What does Ryan's point have to do with the matter at hand?

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 12, 2019, 05:02:07 AM
Scott,

I don't think you got the gist of Ryan's post.

I happened to find the membership fees for Elie online. To be a "member" there costs less than a yearly pass for the public course nearest me here. Clearly the "members" there are capitalists engaged in supply and demand economics.

It seems to me that is what Ryan was getting at.
Elie doesn't make a lot from visitor play.  Unlike Crail, where I'm also a member, it is, during Summer months, pretty much packed with member play.  The club has a decent and full membership (with something like 160 junior members) and runs many popular social events.  It has a very profitable pro shop (I have heard it suggested that the pro at Elie is one of the most remunerative appointments as a club pro in Scotland) and has relatively low maintenance costs.  The membership rate is not substantially subsidised by visitor play.


I used the expression unaccompanied visitor because it would be readily understood by those in the US reading this.  The chip Ryan has on his shoulder is well demonstrated by his utterly unfounded and absurd suggestion that the club was"revelling in bringing down a visitor a peg or two".  I know that starter and that expression is both offensive and miles wide of the mark.  The club has a dress code.  The starter would, very politely and with some charm explain to ANY player, member, non-member, American, Japanese, German, British, 70 year old, 15 year old, whoever, that the dress code needed to be followed.



As others have pointed out, all the starter did was ask Garland and his son to comply with the same rules the members follow.  This whole argument is, to use English that Ryan would appreciate, bollocks.  I have still seen no explanation why Garland felt it right to take his anger out on the club when the fault here lies with the airline. 
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill Gayne on June 12, 2019, 07:11:41 AM
Clearly the "members" there are capitalists engaged in supply and demand economics.



Go figure, an American resentful of capitalism.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill Gayne on June 12, 2019, 07:16:00 AM


No one said the course wasn't enjoyed. I just said I would choose to play elsewhere in the future. There are plenty of other Doak 3s out there to choose from for my limited chances to cross the pond to play.


In that case Tom Doak warned you and you didn't listen. A Doak five: Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you're in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don't spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.

Garland, you flew thousands of miles to Scotland with limited time to play a course you knew was a three.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Scott Warren on June 12, 2019, 07:49:24 AM

Not to mention, Mark, that this from Garland makes clear that all sense has been abandoned in pursuit of justice for his poor bejeaned son.

[There are plenty of other Doak 3s out there to choose from for my limited chances to cross the pond to play.



Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: John Mayhugh on June 12, 2019, 07:56:20 AM
There are plenty of other Doak 3s out there to choose from for my limited chances to cross the pond to play.
Do you really believe that Elie is "about the level of the average golf course in the world?"
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: BHoover on June 12, 2019, 08:15:15 AM
Imagine being so upset at a private club’s dress code, shooting a 115 (ESC 90), and still complaining.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 12, 2019, 01:30:39 PM


No one said the course wasn't enjoyed. I just said I would choose to play elsewhere in the future. There are plenty of other Doak 3s out there to choose from for my limited chances to cross the pond to play.


In that case Tom Doak warned you and you didn't listen. A Doak five: Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you're in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don't spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.

Garland, you flew thousands of miles to Scotland with limited time to play a course you knew was a three.

Bill,

You flew thousands of miles to play 54 holes at a course you knew Doak rated 3?

I did misremember the Doak rating for Elie. I was thinking it was a 3. Lundin and Jubilee were 3s, but not Elie.

I have often found that i enjoy the Doak 3s more than I enjoy the Doak 4s and 5s. A prime example on the top of the discussion group now is Bude and North Cornwall, which Ally has commented on in his tour of SW England thread. After finding I did not find Doak ratings necessarily suit my tastes in my first trip across the pond, I don't use them much for a guide. Instead, I simply use Peper's True Links to decide to play courses in the area I will be traveling to and play almost exclusively on links, as links are in short supply stateside.


Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 12, 2019, 01:35:16 PM
Clearly the "members" there are capitalists engaged in supply and demand economics.



Go figure, an American resentful of capitalism.

Here in the Pacific Northwest we prefer the Nordstroms version of capitalism. You know, "the customer is always right."
;) Nordstroms is famous for giving a refund to a customer that was dissatisfied with the tires she bought there (Nordstroms doesn't sell tires).
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE 1-4
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 12, 2019, 01:47:29 PM
...
In Elie there is a business which suggests Garland may be a secret admirer of the course.  I reckon it is high time to come out of the closet and be counted.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47942210503_9845541b2a_b.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47942210503_9845541b2a_b.jpg)

Ciao

Perhaps the business belongs to the same chap named Garland that appears to be the club captain.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Alex Miller on June 12, 2019, 02:29:45 PM


No one said the course wasn't enjoyed. I just said I would choose to play elsewhere in the future. There are plenty of other Doak 3s out there to choose from for my limited chances to cross the pond to play.


In that case Tom Doak warned you and you didn't listen. A Doak five: Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you're in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don't spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.

Garland, you flew thousands of miles to Scotland with limited time to play a course you knew was a three.

Bill,

You flew thousands of miles to play 54 holes at a course you knew Doak rated 3?

I did misremember the Doak rating for Elie. I was thinking it was a 3. Lundin and Jubilee were 3s, but not Elie.

I have often found that i enjoy the Doak 3s more than I enjoy the Doak 4s and 5s. A prime example on the top of the discussion group now is Bude and North Cornwall, which Ally has commented on in his tour of SW England thread. After finding I did not find Doak ratings necessarily suit my tastes in my first trip across the pond, I don't use them much for a guide. Instead, I simply use Peper's True Links to decide to play courses in the area I will be traveling to and play almost exclusively on links, as links are in short supply stateside.


I think Tom has even stated that he got Elie a little wrong way back when. In any case I only have this to say about you calling Elie a 3! [size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxFJfcrcA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxFJfcrcA)[/size]
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: MClutterbuck on June 12, 2019, 04:20:13 PM
So who on this group was at Elie on May 22? Was this in the afternoon? I was there that day and I did see a group of about 8, some in shorts and long socks.


Lovely course, fast pace of play by members that can make it tricky for first timers on the course. We enjoyed it a lot on a breezy day.


Elie is a Doak 6 I believe, and I recall Tom D adding it to the list of top 10 courses he would want to play in Scotland.



Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on June 12, 2019, 04:35:19 PM
So who on this group was at Elie on May 22? Was this in the afternoon? I was there that day and I did see a group of about 8, some in shorts and long socks.

A group played in the AM then a larger group around 3pm.  Best Doak 3 I ever played  8)

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Scott Warren on June 12, 2019, 05:11:20 PM
That would have been our group, MC.


There was a group of four Americans we said hi to when they (you?) were on the 3rd green and we were on 18 tee. I’m guessing it would have been about 2pm as we started at 11ish.


There was me, Mark Pearce, Sean Arble, John Mayhugh, James Boon, Tony Muldoon, Marty Bonnar, Robin Hiseman and Adam Lawrence, plus Clyde Johnson for our afternoon round.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: MClutterbuck on June 12, 2019, 05:24:13 PM
We played in the afternoon, teed of before 3pm. Four Argentines, though.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on June 12, 2019, 05:29:58 PM
We played in the afternoon, teed of before 3pm. Four Argentines, though.

I think we met your group in the clubhouse after the game as you were leaving (your group sat in front of the big window?). A shortish stocky guy spoke to us briefly and I thought he might have been Mexican or S American.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill Crane on June 12, 2019, 05:39:40 PM
So who on this group was at Elie on May 22? Was this in the afternoon? I was there that day and I did see a group of about 8, some in shorts and long socks.

Lovely course, fast pace of play by members that can make it tricky for first timers on the course. We enjoyed it a lot on a breezy day.

Elie is a Doak 6 I believe, and I recall Tom D adding it to the list of top 10 courses he would want to play in Scotland.

That Elie is a Doak scale 5 is one of ratings I don't understand in the new version of the Confidential Guide.  Tom Doak gushed about the character of the place even indicating he would play more golf there then on some of the St Andrews links courses- but only gave it a 5.

In a recent discussion with Ian Andrew he mentioned he thought this was a very under-rated course and I completely agree.  Hard to believe it is not a 6 at least.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: MClutterbuck on June 12, 2019, 05:51:16 PM
We played in the afternoon, teed of before 3pm. Four Argentines, though.

I think we met your group in the clubhouse after the game as you were leaving (your group sat in front of the big window?). A shortish stocky guy spoke to us briefly and I thought he might have been Mexican or S American.

Ciao


That was us. Sorry we did not get the chance to talk, I was probably busy figuring out dinner plans on our way to Carnoustie.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Scott Warren on June 12, 2019, 05:53:35 PM
Aha — yes, your group let us through on the 7th green in the afternoon!
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 12, 2019, 06:02:16 PM
There are plenty of other Doak 3s out there to choose from for my limited chances to cross the pond to play.
Do you really believe that Elie is "about the level of the average golf course in the world?"
Just because Doak has assigned a three to a course, do you really believe all those courses are "about the level of the average golf course in the world?"

He certainly has gotten a lot of push back from members here on a number of links courses that he has assigned a three to. E.g., Niall C objects to the 3 he gave Moray Old. Ally M objects to the 3 he gave Bude and North Cornwall.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: MClutterbuck on June 12, 2019, 06:03:12 PM
Aha — yes, your group let us through on the 7th green in the afternoon!


Yes, I am afraid that with no caddie and no local, first time around that routing can be confusing and/or slow. We did let a group through there as I could not find my drive, found it after well over the green. n
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ira Fishman on June 12, 2019, 08:04:20 PM
My wife and I played without Caddies in less than 3 hours. I have no idea how the Doak Scale works, but we found Elie well above average..


Ira
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill Gayne on June 12, 2019, 08:12:00 PM


No one said the course wasn't enjoyed. I just said I would choose to play elsewhere in the future. There are plenty of other Doak 3s out there to choose from for my limited chances to cross the pond to play.


In that case Tom Doak warned you and you didn't listen. A Doak five: Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you're in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don't spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.

Garland, you flew thousands of miles to Scotland with limited time to play a course you knew was a three.

Bill,

You flew thousands of miles to play 54 holes at a course you knew Doak rated 3?

I did misremember the Doak rating for Elie. I was thinking it was a 3. Lundin and Jubilee were 3s, but not Elie.

I have often found that i enjoy the Doak 3s more than I enjoy the Doak 4s and 5s. A prime example on the top of the discussion group now is Bude and North Cornwall, which Ally has commented on in his tour of SW England thread. After finding I did not find Doak ratings necessarily suit my tastes in my first trip across the pond, I don't use them much for a guide. Instead, I simply use Peper's True Links to decide to play courses in the area I will be traveling to and play almost exclusively on links, as links are in short supply stateside.


Yep, have no qualms about it and would do it again.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on June 12, 2019, 08:21:44 PM
My wife and I played without Caddies in less than 3 hours. I have no idea how the Doak Scale works, but we found Elie well above average..

Ira

Makes complete sense for a 2ball...not so much for a 4ball.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Lloyd_Cole on June 12, 2019, 10:26:29 PM
Elie is a fantastic course, I'm lucky to have a few friends who are members there, but my memories of the Buda Cup have stayed with me. We played in awful heavy rain and we were a little behind schedule, we had maybe 15 minutes to dry off after the first 18, grab a sandwich and rush out again. I distinctly recall the starter telling us that 'foresomes at Elie are played in 2 hours and 40 minutes'. I was not impressed. It was unnecessary and sergeant major-ish. The collective green fee from the group that day could not have been insignificant to membership fees.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 13, 2019, 03:30:57 PM
Elie is a fantastic course, I'm lucky to have a few friends who are members there, but my memories of the Buda Cup have stayed with me. We played in awful heavy rain and we were a little behind schedule, we had maybe 15 minutes to dry off after the first 18, grab a sandwich and rush out again. I distinctly recall the starter telling us that 'foresomes at Elie are played in 2 hours and 40 minutes'. I was not impressed. It was unnecessary and sergeant major-ish. The collective green fee from the group that day could not have been insignificant to membership fees.
Given the suggestion previously made, without any insight at all, by Ryan about the way the starter spoke to Garland, it's worth noting that the starter back then has retired and was not the same one as Garland met.  I have no idea why he would have said that, though, as Elie is not a two-ball club and whilst we were playing foresomes, other groups that afternoon would likely have been playing 4 balls. 
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 13, 2019, 04:56:08 PM
Given the suggestion previously made, without any insight at all, by Ryan about the way the starter spoke to Garland,...

I don't see anything in what Ryan wrote or what I wrote that suggests the starter was anything but polite to me. I politely asked if an exception could be made due to our luggage situation, and he carefully explained the tradition of the club.

What Ryan suggests as I interpret it is this is a course in a small rural community that charges visitors three times what similar courses not so advantageously located charge, AND enforces an arcane dress code just because they can.

Locate them in Bude, Cornwall, and the fee drops significantly, and the dress code goes with the flow.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 13, 2019, 07:34:49 PM
Mark


Thank you for completely failing to read what I wrote in the context of the posts that came before it, specifically your ‘letter’ and the contributions from Mr Carlton and Mr Chaplin.


You have it completely wrong.


Any chip on my shoulder is not derived at private members clubs. I’ve spent the last 10 years of my life managing such a place. Although the term is misleading. As private to me means exactly that. My point, whether you agree with it or not is not aimed at a staff member. It’s on the policy and the shitty letter and responses in this thread. Golf Clubs are in the service industry. Hiding behind faux privacy whilst looking for commercial revenue and taking umbrage for the scrutiny this naturally brings on attitudes and absolutist policies is frankly naive.


Poor service is poor service. And in my opinion and his, this fellow, an overseas visitor, in unfortunate circumstances was shown no help, no discretion, no concession. All he gets is references to Pine Valley, Seminole and Cal Club. The chip on the shoulder is yours rather than mine. These places at least are genuinely private, and don’t look to overseas visitors to subsidise their subscriptions, whilst at the same time being prickly to the same paying customers highlighting what they perceive as poor service.


They paid their money, you rely on their money. Suck it up or improve. Or live with the feedback. Or be a genuinely private members club.


You have a waiting list now. Perhaps you’ll always have a waiting list, lord knows it’s a great course. But then lots of places had waiting lists. Lots of places displayed the same indifferent arrogance to their customers, thinking the well would never run dry.


You can’t say yes to everyone all the time of course. Nor should you beat them up with examples of courses in their vast homeland they have nothing to do with. Dress it up how you like. The message is clear. You can play ours. We can’t play yours and your letter shows that rankles and would go some way to explaining the poor treatment of someone in difficult circumstances.


I think people in Garland’s position travelling half way across the world, deserve better. It’s common decency. Yes the airline lost the luggage. You can’t control that. You control how you dealt with the situation. In my opinion, based on this thread, you dealt with how a lot of golf clubs deal with it. A complacent shrug. And look at the thread,People loved it, references to Old Tom, make the game great again etc.


Sorry to repeat myself, even Muirfield have spare jackets on hand rather than boost sales for the most profitable Pro shop in Scotland. It doesn’t mean capitulating. It means doing what you practicably can.

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: James Brown on June 13, 2019, 09:20:33 PM
Elie is hell bent on enforcing their arcane rules. As far as I am concerned, they may be part of the reason there is a thread about Scottish golf being in trouble.

Our luggage did not make it with us to Scotland, and my son wore fashionable stretch denim Jean's on the plane for comfort so he did not have his golfing pants to wear. No matter that half the eight or so lads and gents gathered by the first tee were more shoddy in appearance with their old corduroy pants and such. No excuses accepted, and a shallow lecture on tradition was what we got. So their shop made a sale of one pair of pants, which resulted in them no having a chance to sell four meals, and no prospect of at least two of us returning.

If they had some brains they would know their stupid rule was made for the Levi's of old, and enforce it appropriately.

Too bad I'm not a Twitter user so I can excoriate them there too.


If you showed up at Augusta National to play and didn’t have the right clothing to fit their dress code, wouldn’t you just happily buy whatever you needed in the pro shop and be delighted to have the privilege to play the course? 
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 14, 2019, 01:10:22 AM
Not just apples to oranges James,  more like caviar to fish guts.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jon Wiggett on June 14, 2019, 04:17:34 PM

Ryan,


so what you are saying in essence is if a club accepts outside guests then they have no right to enforce rules?


Garland,


so if the membership dues were one hundred times you would have no problem with the club enforcing the rules but below a certain price rules don't apply?
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 14, 2019, 04:33:10 PM

Ryan,


so what you are saying in essence is if a club accepts outside guests then they have no right to enforce rules?


Garland,


so if the membership dues were one hundred times you would have no problem with the club enforcing the rules but below a certain price rules don't apply?


Jon


No, I’m saying what I said. No more, no less. I’ve been quite specific, and hopefully clear so that it doesn’t require a ‘so what you’re saying is’.



Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Scott Warren on June 14, 2019, 05:00:09 PM
Ryan and Garland,


What you’re suggesting is simply absurd.


The membership cost, guest fee or green fee at any golf club has a “Ts & Cs Apply” and the Ts & Cs are that the golfer abides by the club’s policies. It’s ridiculously simple — I would have said it’s idiot-proof, but here we are...
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 14, 2019, 05:37:33 PM
So Muirfield are absurd for having a variety of spare jackets so visitors can comply with their dining policy?


Or should they just refer the guys paying £300 to the t&c’s?


Good service is trying to be helpful. Looking for solutions, and perhaps finding a compromise.


Could they have lent the lad a pair of waterproof trousers? could they have sold them at cost price + Vat?


Compare these potential solutions, that cost the club nothing and show some understanding to a paying customer,  with Mark’s letter and you’ll see why they have a critic rather than an advocate of their Club.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 14, 2019, 06:33:09 PM

Garland,


so if the membership dues were one hundred times you would have no problem with the club enforcing the rules but below a certain price rules don't apply?

No Jon. If the dues were that, it would be truly private, and I wouldn't have a chance to play there. No matter! As I have said, I have plenty of choices of places that I would be happy to play.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: BHoover on June 14, 2019, 10:43:02 PM
Elie has quickly become my favorite club in Scotland (and I’ve never been there). It’s now an absolute must-play.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on June 15, 2019, 01:07:16 AM
It’s now an absolute must-play.

Very true.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: MKrohn on June 15, 2019, 04:20:47 AM

4 of us turned up to Cal Club, "unaccompanied" but sponsored.


Being dopey Aussies all of us were wearing shorts, the club required long trousers so we all bought a pair, I've still got mine (some 10 years later).


Enjoyed our game, no issues, and I give Cal a big thumbs up whenever I can.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jon Wiggett on June 15, 2019, 01:40:08 PM

Ryan,


thanks for clearing up your point by saying you have already made your point clearly. It is so much clearer now  ::)


I do agree that waterproofs (I have done this in the past) or a pair of trousers at cost would have been an elegant solution. However, I do think the club were correct to stick to their own rules.



Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 16, 2019, 03:17:41 PM
Given the suggestion previously made, without any insight at all, by Ryan about the way the starter spoke to Garland,...

I don't see anything in what Ryan wrote or what I wrote that suggests the starter was anything but polite to me. I politely asked if an exception could be made due to our luggage situation, and he carefully explained the tradition of the club.

What Ryan suggests as I interpret it is this is a course in a small rural community that charges visitors three times what similar courses not so advantageously located charge, AND enforces an arcane dress code just because they can.

Locate them in Bude, Cornwall, and the fee drops significantly, and the dress code goes with the flow.
Garland,


He suggested that the club (the starter) was engaged in "taking you down a step or two" by asking your son to obey the rules the members follow.  It's pretty clear that that is a suggestion he was trying to put you in your place.


Second, you miss the mark by a mile suggesting that Elie is a small rural community.  It's not.  It's a town/village that for over 120 years had had more houses owned by "outsiders" than locals.  It's a very smart getaway for the Edinburgh and Glasgow professions.  And the green fees are not three times other local courses.  Indeed, they're at pretty much exactly the same level as Crail, Lundin, Leven within a 30 minute drive.  And far cheaper than certain other courses within that range.


Do you think St Enodoc, or Lundin, would have allowed your son to break the dress code the members follow?


By the way, you still haven't told us whether, after all of this outraged whinging about Elie, you have made any claim from the airline.  Have you?
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 16, 2019, 11:12:01 PM
Mark,

I am pretty sure Ryan was indicating the club membership are the ones taking us down a step or two by insisting on their policy.

I tried to make it clear that the Fife locale gives them the ability to do what they do. Elie is no St. Enodoc. In my judgement, Bude is the appropriate comparison.

According to the airline policy, no compensation is due for delayed luggage. No matter,  I won't be flying European based carriers again now that both Norwegian and Aer Lingus have let me down.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 17, 2019, 03:04:14 AM
Garland,


That first sentence sums up how utterly absurd your entire whinge is.  They were insisting on the policy the members have to abide by.  You seem to think that you and your son are so special that you special that you should be allowed to break rules that the members, who are letting you play their course, all have to obey.


You chose to play golf in Fife and if your suggestion is that courses like Elie are ten a penny in the rest of the country, you need to get around more.


It sounds like you chose to fly on an airline with rules you didn't like but rather than complain about them, you are complaining about a golf club with rules you wouldn't have had an issue with had the airline not let you down.  Isn't it about time you just acknowledged that your OP was off the mark and unreasonable?
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: BHoover on June 17, 2019, 09:07:31 AM
We can only hope that someone at Elie reads this site and is having a good laugh at Garland’s expense...because I certainly am.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Eric Smith on June 17, 2019, 11:27:12 AM
But, this is my favorite combo... the famous Royal Cinque Ports stripes!

The power of the Deal Stripes allowed me to chop down the mighty oak which is Ben Stephens at Hollinwell!!!  ;D

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PCnB2hltfDWMp7jmvhESbudVDVnamot_CRSO7r7LrhY4SszbTB66lfnpNRco2rDPHcZ8MqmnLzsA2VxKs4PdAVuODKvYpgyz0YIQfwLIaQVMEF3lo8wmWzUNUfs60C1ccVA3S3qNxmRj9A8w-auZCZKhCbkmG879yJEuoMjth3zb3s-lBLkdxjLGuvjKCLf-vap0-2TERG-IYPSHrnYIh9m6s1MIbTeavzmZWZNm8png6O1M3EXSWvNRO3PowQtloxMnMqy0bJkWvcNFeOAGI6LQdZ9VRM74JVsLbIjVxQsw_4s40j-vZx_nLFIMKv8aMFZ3gwddBcFzPLDTOpgNFdnvOz4lCGlKk_iO3dhCGBotDlwIpb9QjqUfFZJzKZClTwdtxuXOb_ifguzw9kGhwStX9fMw9q_13QfUkmEZ2Wgn1t1Qg-nyBJZtMZ4ZUqAVoMxP1aPsGG_z1gxhP4o2nxU4c8xzkoYalO1srv8_ziWrexVxzgXAX_VC3XbHVKPU0toNKtOCSiYDyfrbep9zE5WZLmJkg7fRaKRRNw3bhlD5k-OUbpOl2tBXvg_iy3bZzmbh4Zi6e1EgwWMbch9qzijarRlkhyTit9W3FyJLKyqMp5XtS_VWReCXQPLkMVeO5sHNgj8eQap86X45bk_qx7CcmjQwX_c=w1259-h944-no)


Inspirational! I think its high time the Burning Pants Society come out of the shadows here in the US. #freeyourknees #movement #buystuff
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bob Montle on June 17, 2019, 12:03:11 PM
Coming over for the BUDA in September.
After reading this thread, The Golf House Club is a MUST for me.

Do you think I should leave my cargo pants at home?

Oh wait - I don't own any.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bob Montle on June 17, 2019, 12:32:39 PM
On all of my trips to Scotland, whenever I golf I've tried to behave like a visitor in someone's house.
(And I have always felt like a very welcomed guest.)

Maybe that's just me.

The local rules and customs are important to me.  It is important to me to be polite and friendly to my hosts.
I view it as a matter of respect for the members who have allowed me to play and for the traditions of the course.

Maybe I'm just strange?

I've never been intimidated by politicians or celebrities or corporate CEO's, but I have been nervous and awed when stepping foot in the clubhouse at N. Berwick, or walking onto the turf of TOC.

And I have always been amazed (yes, AMAZED) by the friendliness and generosity of the staff and members of each and every course I've been fortunate enough to play over there.

But maybe that's just me.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: BHoover on June 17, 2019, 12:39:19 PM
Coming over for the BUDA in September.
After reading this thread, The Golf House Club is a MUST for me.

Do you think I should leave my cargo pants at home?

Oh wait - I don't own any.

I hope the club will consider a framed photo of Garland to commemorate this entertaining episode. After all, the memories are what make us human.

Ideally the photo would be framed with a much-deserved Doak 0 visitor ranking.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Eric Smith on June 17, 2019, 12:58:29 PM
The sad thing is none of us should ever have learned about this incident here on GCA. Poor form, G-bone.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 17, 2019, 01:12:02 PM
Many a good or at least impassioned post here, but as a total outsider with no vested interest and no desire to smugly dismiss a poster like Garland, I'm left to wonder: why does Ryan's post #150 seem to me so sane and reasonable, and both so well informed and well intentioned?
P
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on June 17, 2019, 01:24:13 PM
I have refrained from commenting on Garland's experience or Elie's rules until now because most everyone on this thread is a good friend and I love visiting Elie and wish to continue doing so.

But...

I live in Greenville, SC... not exactly the bastion of snootiness or stuffy rules. But, most of our courses here have a no-denim policy (especially the private clubs). No one would expect to turn up at one of those clubs wearing jeans (for whatever reason) and expect to be allowed to play. It just isn't going to happen.

I know Garland was frustrated that Elie wouldn't accommodate him in his time of need. But, as Mark says, it was the airline's issue, not Elie's.

Now, Elie could have done a magnanimous thing and waved the rule for Garland (which is what Garland wanted), but where does that end? Once you open that door you no longer have a rule and it allows any local (or visitor) to show up wearing most anything and expect to be allowed on the course.

It's sad that this thread devolved into a pissing match about a conservative club's rules. But, guys... it is their club... it is their rules. Their rules were established for what they consider very good reasons. I don't really understand why any guest would question that.

Garland, it's OK to be disappointed and frustrated with the way things turned out at Elie. But, it's not Elie's fault. I love you, Dude, but you are being very "millennial" in whining about being "mistreated."

When in Rome, you do as the Romans do.

The same goes for Scotland. Buy some long socks and carry a pair of shorts in your carry-on and you will be accepted at every course in the country.

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 17, 2019, 03:18:21 PM
Just going back through this thread, I notice Garland's throwaway line that the Castle Course did not enforce a no jeans rule the day before.


So Garland, given that this wasn't your first day in the UK, and that you had been in St Andrews, which has, you know, shops, you had obviously decided that rather than buy a pair of cheap, acceptable trousers, you'd wing it and rely on Elie (and presumably others) waiving their dress code for you.  And then you get angry?
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on June 17, 2019, 03:23:18 PM
No need for a flogging, Mark. We all get the gist of what happened.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on June 17, 2019, 03:47:12 PM
Many a good or at least impassioned post here, but as a total outsider with no vested interest and no desire to smugly dismiss a poster like Garland, I'm left to wonder: why does Ryan's post #150 seem to me so sane and reasonable, and both so well informed and well intentioned?
P

Pietro

It is interesting you and I have completely different takes on post 150. I don't think it is particularly well intentioned. I don't understand why the acceptance of visitor money should mean that rules will be waived. I don't understand what "deserves better" means. Better as in Garland is better than the members and therefore deserves rules exemptions?

This situation isn't about what Ryan thinks are reasonable rules. I think the sock rule is silly. So what?

I agree the pro might have taken the bull by the horns and contacted whoever he needed to ask for a rule waiver. I also think the pro might have already known the answer to that request. I have seen the situation arise twice in my visits to Elie and heard of it from other people. In each case the visitor found a way to comply with the rules. I imagine the socks /shorts rule has to be forced many times a month in season. It is completely bewildering to me why someone would travel to another country to play golf and somehow expect not to be effected by the local culture.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 17, 2019, 04:34:01 PM
The reason Peter thinks Ryan's post is good, is because he seems to have read and understood what Ryan posted. I have to agree with Ryan that, with Muirfield's model as a guide, Elie could simply have had loaner rain pants on hand to loan.

Mark suggests that since I was in St Andrew's, I could have bought a pair of pants. Since we stayed at a farm house outside of town, and went to the castle course without going to St Andrews, he simply demonstrates how so many people are making assumptions and posting based on falsehoods.

I spent my time before going to Elie on the phone, on the web, and on email trying to get our luggage delivered to the farm house. It was delivered while we were golfing at Elie using my instructions on where to leave it since we wouldn't be there.

The airlines use a company named Menzies to handle these baggage situations. It is the most unresponsive, ineffective company I have ever dealt with. Even my recent encounter with the IRS here showed the IRS to be more responsive, and effective.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on June 17, 2019, 06:50:53 PM
Garland

Yes, of course the club could have a few pairs of loaner rain bottoms. Is it such an imposition that the club didn't offer this service? Is that really where you want to draw a line in the sand? All this business about he could have done this or that for me is not something you should hang your hat on. The entire episode is small beer. To me that should be the main take away...with a smile across your face. 

Ciao

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mike Sweeney on June 17, 2019, 07:19:06 PM

The entire episode is small beer.


That is a fantastic expression. The re-popping of this thread made me read you original reviews, and thank you for these reviews. I simply love "Arble Winter Tours" and other even more after a recent trip.


Slainte
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 17, 2019, 07:37:41 PM
Many a good or at least impassioned post here, but as a total outsider with no vested interest and no desire to smugly dismiss a poster like Garland, I'm left to wonder: why does Ryan's post #150 seem to me so sane and reasonable, and both so well informed and well intentioned?
P


Because it’s far too reasonable.


Posters continue to delight in Garland falling foul, and the more this sort of stuff occurs, the more attractive these policies become to them.


Where I don’t agree with Garland is whether a particular Club is good enough to justify its standards or position. That’s a matter for them. I believe in their right to their rules and policy. But I believe in the paying customers right to find it ridiculous and say so.


I just repeat, helpfulness and doing what you can within the constraints you must operate within is not just good service, but a decent way to treat people. There was a better way for the Club and Clubs to deal with this. But then, as this thread shows, people are strange.


On GCA, Elie’s stock has risen for charging an overseas visitor whose airline had lost his luggage rrp for trousers. People revel in this nonsense and they revel and take delight in it here. It’s the people in the thread I say like bringing others down a peg or two. Chances are if you asked the starter, he may well agree with me. Who knows? Just doing his job.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 17, 2019, 07:57:15 PM
Many a good or at least impassioned post here, but as a total outsider with no vested interest and no desire to smugly dismiss a poster like Garland, I'm left to wonder: why does Ryan's post #150 seem to me so sane and reasonable, and both so well informed and well intentioned?
P

Pietro

It is interesting you and I have completely different takes on post 150. I don't think it is particularly well intentioned. I don't understand why the acceptance of visitor money should mean that rules will be waived. I don't understand what "deserves better" means. Better as in Garland is better than the members and therefore deserves rules exemptions?

This situation isn't about what Ryan thinks are reasonable rules. I think the sock rule is silly. So what?

I agree the pro might have taken the bull by the horns and contacted whoever he needed to ask for a rule waiver. I also think the pro might have already known the answer to that request. I have seen the situation arise twice in my visits to Elie and heard of it from other people. In each case the visitor found a way to comply with the rules. I imagine the socks /shorts rule has to be forced many times a month in season. It is completely bewildering to my why someone would travel to another country to play golf and somehow expect not to be effected by the local culture.

Ciao


Sean


A recent post you saw fit to criticise a course nearby effected by well documented drought.


A criticism others playing that day did not feel justified.


Rightfully, you judge courses relative to what you pay and look for value in what you’re experiencing. You paid your money, they have to live with your public criticism whether they like it or not.


There is a distinction between the members and Garland. They live down the road. Circumvention of the policy would be a choice on their part. Garland’s was down to unfortunate circumstances. Only robots providing poor service would fail to find a better way than the most profitable shop
In Scotland sell him some trousers on top of their greenfees.


Garland paid for his round, and paid for new attire for his offspring in the process. He’s entitled to express his view, as you are yours as you frequently, without a hint of self doubt do.




Small beer indeed.



Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 17, 2019, 08:02:30 PM
We can only hope that someone at Elie reads this site and is having a good laugh at Garland’s expense...because I certainly am.


Exhibit A
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 17, 2019, 08:03:57 PM
Elie has quickly become my favorite club in Scotland (and I’ve never been there). It’s now an absolute must-play.


Exhibit B
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 17, 2019, 08:07:20 PM
Coming over for the BUDA in September.
After reading this thread, The Golf House Club is a MUST for me.

Do you think I should leave my cargo pants at home?

Oh wait - I don't own any.

I hope the club will consider a framed photo of Garland to commemorate this entertaining episode. After all, the memories are what make us human.

Ideally the photo would be framed with a much-deserved Doak 0 visitor ranking.


Exhibit C


They just love it.


They just wish they were on hand to witness it in person, as he was frogmarched to the pro shop.


The game is sadly played and frequented by such people. A real shame. It’s a great sport that more would play. Sadly adopted as their own by these types.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 17, 2019, 08:28:21 PM
Coming over for the BUDA in September.
After reading this thread, The Golf House Club is a MUST for me.

Do you think I should leave my cargo pants at home?

Oh wait - I don't own any.


‘Golf never judges, it brings out who you are’.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: BHoover on June 17, 2019, 08:29:09 PM
The original poster disparaged a club and course after he and his son (a) failed to consult the club’s posted dress code on the website and/or (b) failed to pack additional appropriate clothing in their carry-on baggage. Did they ask to borrow rain pants? No, instead he threw a fit in an online forum. But sure, those of us who criticize his behavior are the real problem. Okay.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 17, 2019, 08:40:23 PM
Nice attempt at back tracking.


What you do is revel in it. As I said originally. It’s a big part of the attraction of the sport for you - the baggage that comes with it.


Elie is your new favourite course in Scotland. Your words.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: BHoover on June 17, 2019, 08:45:08 PM
Nice attempt at back tracking.

What you do is revel in it. As I said originally. It’s a big part of the attraction of the sport for you - the baggage that comes with it.

Elie is your new favourite course in Scotland. Your words.


I’m not back tracking. I said it’s my favorite, and it now is. You have no idea what I enjoy about golf — but someone throwing a fit over not being granted an exemption from a club’s rules is not worth defending. As an American, I’m embarrassed a fellow countryman would think the rules should not apply to him.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 17, 2019, 08:58:53 PM
But, this is my favorite combo... the famous Royal Cinque Ports stripes!

The power of the Deal Stripes allowed me to chop down the mighty oak which is Ben Stephens at Hollinwell!!!  ;D

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PCnB2hltfDWMp7jmvhESbudVDVnamot_CRSO7r7LrhY4SszbTB66lfnpNRco2rDPHcZ8MqmnLzsA2VxKs4PdAVuODKvYpgyz0YIQfwLIaQVMEF3lo8wmWzUNUfs60C1ccVA3S3qNxmRj9A8w-auZCZKhCbkmG879yJEuoMjth3zb3s-lBLkdxjLGuvjKCLf-vap0-2TERG-IYPSHrnYIh9m6s1MIbTeavzmZWZNm8png6O1M3EXSWvNRO3PowQtloxMnMqy0bJkWvcNFeOAGI6LQdZ9VRM74JVsLbIjVxQsw_4s40j-vZx_nLFIMKv8aMFZ3gwddBcFzPLDTOpgNFdnvOz4lCGlKk_iO3dhCGBotDlwIpb9QjqUfFZJzKZClTwdtxuXOb_ifguzw9kGhwStX9fMw9q_13QfUkmEZ2Wgn1t1Qg-nyBJZtMZ4ZUqAVoMxP1aPsGG_z1gxhP4o2nxU4c8xzkoYalO1srv8_ziWrexVxzgXAX_VC3XbHVKPU0toNKtOCSiYDyfrbep9zE5WZLmJkg7fRaKRRNw3bhlD5k-OUbpOl2tBXvg_iy3bZzmbh4Zi6e1EgwWMbch9qzijarRlkhyTit9W3FyJLKyqMp5XtS_VWReCXQPLkMVeO5sHNgj8eQap86X45bk_qx7CcmjQwX_c=w1259-h944-no)


Mike,

I ain't trying to chuck you under the bus, i'm sure you're a swell chap and all...

But for the life of me I can't figure how an abortion of an outfit like this is OK for UK golf, but a nice pair of denim pants is right out.  Sweet Jebus...

P.S.  I know Garland, we've played golf together and he's a very easy going/laid back kind of guy so i'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one....
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on June 17, 2019, 10:00:22 PM
Many a good or at least impassioned post here, but as a total outsider with no vested interest and no desire to smugly dismiss a poster like Garland, I'm left to wonder: why does Ryan's post #150 seem to me so sane and reasonable, and both so well informed and well intentioned?
P

Pietro

It is interesting you and I have completely different takes on post 150. I don't think it is particularly well intentioned. I don't understand why the acceptance of visitor money should mean that rules will be waived. I don't understand what "deserves better" means. Better as in Garland is better than the members and therefore deserves rules exemptions?

This situation isn't about what Ryan thinks are reasonable rules. I think the sock rule is silly. So what?

I agree the pro might have taken the bull by the horns and contacted whoever he needed to ask for a rule waiver. I also think the pro might have already known the answer to that request. I have seen the situation arise twice in my visits to Elie and heard of it from other people. In each case the visitor found a way to comply with the rules. I imagine the socks /shorts rule has to be forced many times a month in season. It is completely bewildering to my why someone would travel to another country to play golf and somehow expect not to be effected by the local culture.

Ciao

Sean

A recent post you saw fit to criticise a course nearby effected by well documented drought.

A criticism others playing that day did not feel justified.

Rightfully, you judge courses relative to what you pay and look for value in what you’re experiencing. You paid your money, they have to live with your public criticism whether they like it or not.

There is a distinction between the members and Garland. They live down the road. Circumvention of the policy would be a choice on their part. Garland’s was down to unfortunate circumstances. Only robots providing poor service would fail to find a better way than the most profitable shop
In Scotland sell him some trousers on top of their greenfees.

Garland paid for his round, and paid for new attire for his offspring in the process. He’s entitled to express his view, as you are yours as you frequently, without a hint of self doubt do.

Small beer indeed.

Ryan

If you equate criticism of (unannounced) poor course conditions to a well publicised (some would say famous) dress code, its easy to understand why we aren't connecting on this matter.  There is plenty of room for all sorts of clubs and courses to suit anybody's taste and budget.  We really should be celebrating the different mores and cultures of clubs instead of trying to make all clubs conform to your personal ideals of what is right and reasonable.  I think the folks in this thread are really asking Garland to join in the celebration.  To me its boggling someone would dig their heels in over this kind of thing...and I am the sort that doesn't give a rats ass about what people wear and how they wear it.  I wish there were no rules about this stuff, but golf ain't like that and we all know this.

Mike Sweeney...thank you.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 18, 2019, 02:02:36 AM
Actually, Ryan, probably less than half the Elie membership "live down the road".  The majority live at least an hour away, many far further.  I'm 3 hours away and I'd be surprised if I wasn't closer than 25% of the membership.  You can't get over ridiculous hyperbole when it comes to private clubs, though, can you? Frogmarched to the pro shop?
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bill Gayne on June 18, 2019, 05:53:08 AM
I've had similar situations and you just follow club rules. Buda at Rye and Littlestone, I forgot to pack my golf shirts (left them stacked on the bed at home) so I went to M&S in Canterbury and bought a couple of shirts along with shirts at Rye and Littlestone. I still wear the shirts here at home.


A member guest at Doonbeg and my clubs didn't make it due to the airlines so I paid to rent clubs and shoes.


The Muirfield comparison isn't a good one. Lunch at Muirfield is a unique situation and providing an often ill fitting jacket (left behind by a previous visitor) isn't waiving the dress requirement a lunch. As I understand it Garland wanted the dress requirement be waived and his son be allowed to play in denim. No club is going to carry an inventory of trousers for visitors to wear one time. 


Where should the accommodation end? Late arriving pants, yes, jackets at lunch, yes, collared shirts, no, clubs and shoes, no, knee length socks, no. These are golf clubs not charity shops.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on June 18, 2019, 04:19:10 PM
But, this is my favorite combo... the famous Royal Cinque Ports stripes!

The power of the Deal Stripes allowed me to chop down the mighty oak which is Ben Stephens at Hollinwell!!!  ;D

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PCnB2hltfDWMp7jmvhESbudVDVnamot_CRSO7r7LrhY4SszbTB66lfnpNRco2rDPHcZ8MqmnLzsA2VxKs4PdAVuODKvYpgyz0YIQfwLIaQVMEF3lo8wmWzUNUfs60C1ccVA3S3qNxmRj9A8w-auZCZKhCbkmG879yJEuoMjth3zb3s-lBLkdxjLGuvjKCLf-vap0-2TERG-IYPSHrnYIh9m6s1MIbTeavzmZWZNm8png6O1M3EXSWvNRO3PowQtloxMnMqy0bJkWvcNFeOAGI6LQdZ9VRM74JVsLbIjVxQsw_4s40j-vZx_nLFIMKv8aMFZ3gwddBcFzPLDTOpgNFdnvOz4lCGlKk_iO3dhCGBotDlwIpb9QjqUfFZJzKZClTwdtxuXOb_ifguzw9kGhwStX9fMw9q_13QfUkmEZ2Wgn1t1Qg-nyBJZtMZ4ZUqAVoMxP1aPsGG_z1gxhP4o2nxU4c8xzkoYalO1srv8_ziWrexVxzgXAX_VC3XbHVKPU0toNKtOCSiYDyfrbep9zE5WZLmJkg7fRaKRRNw3bhlD5k-OUbpOl2tBXvg_iy3bZzmbh4Zi6e1EgwWMbch9qzijarRlkhyTit9W3FyJLKyqMp5XtS_VWReCXQPLkMVeO5sHNgj8eQap86X45bk_qx7CcmjQwX_c=w1259-h944-no)


Mike,

I ain't trying to chuck you under the bus, i'm sure you're a swell chap and all...

But for the life of me I can't figure how an abortion of an outfit like this is OK for UK golf, but a nice pair of denim pants is right out.  Sweet Jebus...

P.S.  I know Garland, we've played golf together and he's a very easy going/laid back kind of guy so i'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one....
Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!  ;D ;D ;D

I can assure you two things:

1) I am always a vision of sartorial splendour  8)

and

2) I have never been refused access to a golf club due to my personal appearance!  ;)
Here is the "On Course" dress code for my club in England... Royal Cinque Ports Golf Club:

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on June 18, 2019, 04:28:12 PM
And, Kalen...
If you dislike the Deal club stockings you are really going to HATE the jackets!  ;D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kRvEt8B1b0NbknHP7OgJzOw0W1ChnMggMuXFUOZj3DjcaS6A1cAddUssClsXKVP_iCAAp5rjyq-aeDWCuBvyCtO2giJs-z7GRWtjejMu8_6PJruukBTunH7Gk0Ym0p7eZkB8OZje42F_wvgkpYb-iMqNd0SoFc8Yv1e_EegGLMfVl9Pb1bacdPn2S03kch9Cxpo3hcSeJLOqniCJO1JXtyX8DOgtYiEERzt7qGRg448cyiR4RC2_uX3Gw9lJTHTTfTCmteaMXx-4Px9Por52bIjNvw_qK86GxcrVq8moIrzOxqKVIljqLUbiXfYhSj2kAA0Bxlj5Bu8vhyXsf5h_VANrfEkjDJJCZ_3gD9XVQa8TjyeIKywQT_U6tyfpg1hJsGnaBh6YjJRNpvXpl7nKUwsA5a31jHWg-yK6cVF9QaN34F1iRqfGsofxMv8-WoOMjePRH5CXDaJzNEWrolrY1ZSLykHUX1TPhctWiuXTbE6b4A0sN3jeYAnagld0ckgBAXar5hJTLSyRgm_LdyDL18CXtXD1Zv4mcVleV6gQIPKKHeSq17AriNrqq5MySV68c5EZE831GqsGeHp0ZAACC8a8ZfT1a4d1ExS63YvhJawjh006WUEXJMgraR9sx9-usAquRltV4OcQ78_nzSLuqntmjXrLt3Y=w640-h944-no)
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on June 18, 2019, 04:37:06 PM
And the tie!!!!!!!!!!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hkaJI587EC8vp_TVwogNIL3OQpeRLzJDWlX9FxYgbbzb3JYEW34j5kxHHbSEsSREgwLQVjFlovwWnmqf3cFn8JWCdBJ6hhpoBiErNEFwO8uekyiPpfO01j03yXDnUPWgK431S-iS8SEsyMibBiFXbX63fkdfhBN7e1HTOVl_PuWfiaOeTqbEZHX53Yr7IR3qbfmdh60iy6hjjlrpZsaO5RoUjnLCrgX79qtd237PTX-Wi00sUOAvkLVptzmrebV-9yA3vk6EjM2YMsqMAq3Tttxrti8Yxkok8Ng0Dsj8AYxhZ83T54M8y6Wfur6FG2ErHi0wl3-H_nM5OalS41a5v7pNyyDUCpEj5bEZyyLV0ogD1KDweEdqQMsL-hl7aj03uwL6hWKkWJ4uWtrgYYrNnEjBcGu0YvbvUlF0DSXkW0xS0C07AzF0aZ5Ss6sQ9D69_mpu8ZI8YjIkUYldYxHRexupBe8FdLSFo6mPyMSCxyrZnQl8ipvdXeKxxP9oUg7jm_PAqkR0OJ4wrxpPaRRx7Na2keUKIelWBbwKKT4CKooOr90coeaAgfhB0IgxLgiuApkx_HZ1CxngHSvl4zQ3JUAiMbmCeycgMXPxF__r9bLOiOVpQGlCP09lLSKSMksrpqTfqoMMzQzQEeo7YND6_wcKYNDKuYW9=w426-h599-no)
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 18, 2019, 04:48:42 PM
Michael,

Hilarious stuff, well played. The ties look great thou, just enough flair to make a point without overpowering.  Like a nice entree with a bit of colorful garnish.  ;D

P.S.  Like Sean, I think most dress codes are so arbitrarily silly, it actually detracts overall...but given the world operates this way on so many levels, outwardly appearance vs content of character, tis what it is.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Lou_Duran on June 18, 2019, 04:59:11 PM
Where should the accommodation end? Late arriving pants, yes, jackets at lunch, yes, collared shirts, no, clubs and shoes, no, knee length socks, no. These are golf clubs not charity shops.


Gosh, Bill, a little harsh, don't you think?


Though I am of the mind that when in Rome you do as the Romans, or its derivative: "beggars can't be choosers", I can see common sense and a lot of grace in Ryan's initial comments.  No question that Garland didn't need to broadcast his displeasure, though, again, I sympathize with where he is coming from.  What would have been inconvenient or in any way costly for someone in the shop to fetch a pair of rain pants from the back so the lad could remain in compliance without having to dig deep into his pockets?  It is the little extras that people and clubs do, most often with little notice or bother, that make a great impression.


In regards to Mr. Whitaker's attire, i would have spent whatever extra on long trousers, though I would like to have seen him wear one of those stripped blazers with his socks.  As I recall, his MacKenzie Walker would have clashed for being so conservative.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Tim Martin on June 18, 2019, 06:45:56 PM
The long socks have a “munchkin land” look.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 18, 2019, 08:09:02 PM
Michael,

Hilarious stuff, well played. The ties look great thou, just enough flair to make a point without overpowering.  Like a nice entree with a bit of colorful garnish.  ;D

P.S.  Like Sean, I think most dress codes are so arbitrarily silly, it actually detracts overall...but given the world operates this way on so many levels, outwardly appearance vs content of character, tis what it is.

Outwardly appearance?!?! From what I have seen, it seems some people take great pleasure in gaming the dress code. All these people implying what an uncouth, country bumpkin I must be for not knowing the dress code. I knew the dress code, and wore tailored Greg Norman golf shorts with plans to buy the socks. When we arrived,  I took note of the group of hobos on the first tee, and figured they may not give us a problem about my son's pants. I was wrong, as there was no "let's think about what we can do to help with your predicament." Instead the tradition speech was delivered, and off to the pro shop where I figured there might be a problem fitting such a tall lad. No worries, they had a choice of pants in his size. I guess they have lots of opportunities to sell pants.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 18, 2019, 08:25:18 PM
The long socks have a “munchkin land” look.
I was thinking more Hobbit-like, from Hobbiton, in the Shire. After golf one can trundle over to Bree, for a pint at the Prancing Pony. Not that there's anything wrong with that -- after all, a Hobbit was the Ring Bearer, and they are a lovely people. But perhaps, sartorially speaking, I might feel a tad more comfortable with the people of Gondor, who currently reside (I believe) closer to Walton Heath.   

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on June 18, 2019, 10:34:52 PM
Eat your heart out, boys! You should be so lucky to have the honor to wear the Deal colors.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ben Stephens on June 19, 2019, 06:55:42 AM
Eat your heart out, boys! You should be so lucky to have the honor to wear the Deal colors.


Mike,


I absolutely refuse to play you in your lucky Deal socks knowing that a hammering is due to take place!  ;D ;D ;D


It can be a privilege to wear unique knee high socks associated with a highly regarded club


B
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: John Mayhugh on June 19, 2019, 07:58:01 AM
What would have been inconvenient or in any way costly for someone in the shop to fetch a pair of rain pants from the back so the lad could remain in compliance without having to dig deep into his pockets?  It is the little extras that people and clubs do, most often with little notice or bother, that make a great impression.
Dig deep into his pockets? You can't be serious. I was in Scotland around the same time as Garland. I was there for five days of golf and spent over $2k not counting airfare. Granted, I waste more money in golf shops than many people, but also the most I paid for any day of golf was about $200. Even if the Bayleys were especially frugal, the trip had to cost $4k for the two of them. In such context, is a pair of trousers that cost $70 or whatever really that impactful? Shorts and long socks would probably have been cheaper. So might purchasing rain pants. Presumably a clothing item purchased would also have some future use.

I'm not clear on where the rain pants from the back would have come from. The suggestion that the club stock items like this or trousers for unlucky visitors is not reasonable, especially when a simple (just not free) solution is available.

I really sympathize with Garland over the inconvenience caused by the airline, and take no pleasure at all in his experience. I just have a hard time finding fault with the staff and membership at Elie. I feel fortunate to be able to play members' clubs in the UK with so little hassle. Complying with rules I may not necessarily agree with just goes along with it.

Even harder to understand is his low opinion of the golf course. I loved it.



Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 19, 2019, 11:12:08 AM
I don't think the issue is really with the pants, the rules, whether they had loaner rain pants, etc.

Its the absolute inflexibility of the ones in charge having zero allowance in context.  Especially in light of the fact that Garland showed accountability otherwise in contacting the club well in advance to make a reservation, followed up to confirm the reservation (I presume), showed up on time with his HC card and letter all in order, paid the proper green fee without issue, and was appropriately dressed himself. 

Its not like he and his kid were some unknown joes who just showed up on a Saturday morning asking if they could get out...

Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 19, 2019, 11:40:08 AM
John,

I did not say I did not like the course. I said there are plenty of courses I can choose the I would like as well that are more flexible or accommodating, and less expensive. E.g., Elie and Eden are both Doak 5, and Eden is both less expensive and more accommodating. 2nd time to Eden they had messed up our reservation, worked us in between groups, and charged half price.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Eric Smith on June 19, 2019, 12:11:08 PM
... The sad part of this saga is the course wasn't enjoyed. Ya can't please all the folks all the time.

Ciao

No one said the course wasn't enjoyed. I just said I would choose to play elsewhere in the future. There are plenty of other Doak 3s out there to choose from for my limited chances to cross the pond to play.


Garland,


I think we may have taken this as your opinion of the course when you say "other Doak 3s"
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jon Wiggett on June 19, 2019, 01:23:01 PM

Garland,


Eden is a municipal course so jeans would not be an issue. On the other hand TOC is also a municipal owned by the same council yet you would have a fat chance of getting out on the course in jeans I would imagine. Elie is a members club with its rules which as with just about all such clubs are adhered to. As you say there is plenty of choice out there so happy days for all  ;D
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 19, 2019, 01:27:31 PM
I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jon Wiggett on June 19, 2019, 03:48:01 PM
I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....



Kalen,


I suppose it depends what your criteria is. Pine Valley is most likely a Doak 9 or 10 where as Kilspindie is 5s or less yet if I had to choose to play one of them exclusively for the rest of my life then Kilspindie would win hands down in for me. Greatness lies as much in the fun of playing as anything else.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on June 19, 2019, 04:23:52 PM
I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....
Kalen - if you had played Elie you would understand. It is unique.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Scott Warren on June 19, 2019, 04:26:30 PM

Garland,


Eden is a municipal course so jeans would not be an issue. On the other hand TOC is also a municipal owned by the same council yet you would have a fat chance of getting out on the course in jeans I would imagine. Elie is a members club with its rules which as with just about all such clubs are adhered to. As you say there is plenty of choice out there so happy days for all  ;D


On the contrary, one of the players in the group behind us at TOC was playing in fashionable stretch denim.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ira Fishman on June 19, 2019, 04:30:34 PM
I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....


I am still not sure how the Doak Scale works because I am still too cheap to buy the Confidential Guide, but I am almost certain that Tom Doak listed Elie as one of the world's most underrated courses on a list he did a couple of years ago for Links Magazine.


Ira
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on June 19, 2019, 04:42:45 PM
I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

Doak gave Elie a 6.  I think Elie is a 7.  In either case, Elie is much better than a 5.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Scott Warren on June 19, 2019, 08:08:50 PM
If we can tear ourselves away from numbers out of 10, this passage for me absolutely describes Elie:


One of the very best courses in its region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.”
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 19, 2019, 08:36:17 PM
In case you are confused Kalen, the original CG had it at 5. Apparently, the new CG has it at 6.

Doak has lots of links courses at 3. About the only links I have seen that I would rate a 3 is Nairn Dunbar.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on June 20, 2019, 03:42:58 AM
Leasowe between Hoylake and Wallasey is a genuine links course.


It is a solid 1.


2 on a good day!


😊
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on June 20, 2019, 05:21:29 AM
I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

Doak gave Elie a 6.  I think Elie is a 7.  In either case, Elie is much better than a 5.

Ciao


and on the Muldoon Fun Scale its an 11.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 20, 2019, 07:28:03 AM
I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

Doak gave Elie a 6.  I think Elie is a 7.  In either case, Elie is much better than a 5.

Ciao


and on the Muldoon Fun Scale its an 11.

Am I right in remembering 5 blind drives? Don't you guys get to about the 4th one and go "Really, this seems to be you primary offering! Don't you need a few more periscopes?"
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: John Mayhugh on June 20, 2019, 07:39:38 AM
I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

Doak gave Elie a 6.  I think Elie is a 7.  In either case, Elie is much better than a 5.

Ciao

Doak's ratings are not the final word on how I feel about a course.  FFS he gave Spyglass Hill a 7, and I would play Elie any day over that one.


Kalen, if you read a bit more about Elie (prior to Garland's rant), you will find it has generally been well thought of on here.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: BHoover on June 20, 2019, 07:51:11 AM
Michael,

Hilarious stuff, well played. The ties look great thou, just enough flair to make a point without overpowering.  Like a nice entree with a bit of colorful garnish.  ;D

P.S.  Like Sean, I think most dress codes are so arbitrarily silly, it actually detracts overall...but given the world operates this way on so many levels, outwardly appearance vs content of character, tis what it is.

Outwardly appearance?!?! From what I have seen, it seems some people take great pleasure in gaming the dress code. All these people implying what an uncouth, country bumpkin I must be for not knowing the dress code. I knew the dress code, and wore tailored Greg Norman golf shorts with plans to buy the socks. When we arrived,  I took note of the group of hobos on the first tee, and figured they may not give us a problem about my son's pants. I was wrong, as there was no "let's think about what we can do to help with your predicament." Instead the tradition speech was delivered, and off to the pro shop where I figured there might be a problem fitting such a tall lad. No worries, they had a choice of pants in his size. I guess they have lots of opportunities to sell pants.

I think we need to have a look at these “fashionable stretch denim” pants. They must have been fabulous, particularly compared to the outfits worn by the members you insulted as looking like “a group of hobos”. These must not be ordinary jeans.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: John Mayhugh on June 20, 2019, 07:52:52 AM
Am I right in remembering 5 blind drives? Don't you guys get to about the 4th one and go "Really, this seems to be you primary offering! Don't you need a few more periscopes?"

Blind drives the primary offering? To be honest, until you mentioned it, I never gave any thought to the number of blind drives. Of course, 1 & 10 are both fully blind, but the starter helps with 1 and the thrill of getting to the top of the hill to see the result makes 10 lots of fun. My impression of Elie is more about the terrific greens (with many sloping front to back - a real challenge on links), the mix of hole lengths (you really don't notice the lack of par 5s and only two 3s when playing, such is the variety), the rumpled ground, and the whole "joy to be alive" factor.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 20, 2019, 12:02:17 PM
I apologize all...

I wasn't trying to stir the pot, I'm sure its a terrifically fun course, with plenty of quirk which I love.

Was just trying to figure out the hoopla given in the DS 5 and 6 descriptions, Tom posits its middle of the road and not a course worth a special trip where the burden of expectation is "it shouldn't disappoint"

https://golfcoursegurus.com/rankings/doakscale.php (https://golfcoursegurus.com/rankings/doakscale.php)
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: John Mayhugh on June 20, 2019, 12:32:51 PM
Kalen

Doak's ratings are just that - Doak's ratings. They aren't a single qualitative measure of how good a course is to everyone else that chooses to play them. It's more useful for me to read his descriptions that his scores. About Elie:
This lovely old links was James Braid's boyhood home. Many holes play on a long slope toward the sea, and many visitors are hapless at figuring out how to play approach shots to greens that run away from them. The par-4 13th and the downhill par-3 34d are the best holes, but the most memorable is the opening tee shot, played blind over a ridge from beside the clubhouse after obtaining clearance from the starter, who consults a submarine periscope to check on the group ahead. With so few severe hazards in your way, you will probably scratch your head why you aren't scoring better, but par-4's are the hardest holes to score on, and Elie has sixteen of them!

Garland is the one that opted to mention Doak scores (if inaccurately). Apparently he and his son played the Castle course the day prior to Elie, even though Doak gave that one a zero. They charge 120 pounds for the Castle, while Elie is 85 (rack rates - no idea what Garland actually paid for either). So for Garland and his son together, the Castle cost 70 pounds more for the round than Elie did. Yet spending 50 or whatever quid on a pair of trousers at Elie embittered him towards the club.

Curious, Garland. Forgetting costs, did you judge the Castle to be a better course than Elie?
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Lloyd_Cole on June 20, 2019, 12:57:51 PM

I suppose it depends what your criteria is. Pine Valley is most likely a Doak 9 or 10 where as Kilspindie is 5s or less yet if I had to choose to play one of them exclusively for the rest of my life then Kilspindie would win hands down in for me. Greatness lies as much in the fun of playing as anything else.
Seconded.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 20, 2019, 01:15:31 PM
...
Curious, Garland. Forgetting costs, did you judge the Castle to be a better course than Elie?

Paid 50 for the Castle Course. We did 5 rounds on the 3 day ticket at 250 means 50 for each course. The Castle Course was the least attractive (to me) course of those we played. Even Tetherow (which I am not to high on) done at the same time with mohawks and eyebrows and wild greens too is better IMO. My son got to see modern design Castle and Craighead, vs old style links (all the rest). He liked Craighead best. Sigh.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: John Mayhugh on June 20, 2019, 01:48:39 PM
Garland,
One of these days, I'll try that three day ticket. Seems a good idea.

Curious if maybe your son played best at Craighead?
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 20, 2019, 03:13:07 PM
He shot 41 on the front at Castle. By far his best 9. I doubt he played his best at Craighead, but he struggled in the morning at Balcomie, so that may have some influence as Craighead had some of the widest playing corridors, if not the widest, of where we played.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 20, 2019, 04:08:54 PM
He shot 41 on the front at Castle. By far his best 9. I doubt he played his best at Craighead, but he struggled in the morning at Balcomie, so that may have some influence as Craighead had some of the widest playing corridors, if not the widest, of where we played.
Whoa!  I'm a member at 2 Fife clubs.  One you have chosen to rubbish on this thread.  The other is Crail.  I really like Craighead.  I think it's a great example of what a bright architect can do on a poor piece of land with a limited budget.  Frequently I'll play it above Balcomie.  But it's tough.  SSS74 is almost always 77 in comps.  Mostly because the green complexes are tricky.  But also because there's not much leeway off the tee.


There's no way that anyone, with their brain half engaged, could honestly say that Craighead has wider playing corridors than Elie.  Or, for that matter, the Eden.  Or Balcomie.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 20, 2019, 04:11:25 PM
That said, my kids also like Craighead.  And it belongs in the conversation, where many wouldn't let it in.  So I wouldn't despair of your son yet.  Not for that, anyway.  Choosing to wear stretch denim on a transatlantic flight, however, that makes no sense....
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Bob Montle on June 20, 2019, 04:19:57 PM
Is liking Craighead an age thing?

If I was still a young pup would I like it better?
My round at Balcomie was full of the joy of life and of being there.  I would happily have played it again.
Alas, I tried Craighead and it was a huge disappointment to me.

I loved the New Course and some idiot told me that if I liked the New then I would love Craighead.
Hmmph
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 20, 2019, 04:30:35 PM
Bob,


Not sure it's an age thing.  I think it's a "hard" thing.  To enjoy Craighead you have to drive it well and be willing to be harshly punished for small errors around the greens.  6 or 7 years ago I had the golfing weekend of my life in the first two rounds of the club championship.  My 81 round Craighead was only 4 over CSS (I was playing off 14) and with a 71 round Balcomie saw me qualify 3rd or 4th overall for the second weekend.  But you have to be a bit of a masochist, I think, to enjoy it.


It does have some quirk (more than most moderns) and some really good green complexes.  But it's unforgiving and to love it you have to live with that.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 21, 2019, 01:01:22 AM
...  I have a theory that any decent links is worth at least 5 unless there are unusual circumstances involved.  ...

You see, Doak rating of 3 on links courses is really saying they rate 5! Just like Doak rated Elie in the original CG. ;)
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Garland Bayley on June 21, 2019, 01:17:48 AM
...
There's no way that anyone, with their brain half engaged, could honestly say that Craighead has wider playing corridors than Elie.  Or, for that matter, the Eden.  Or Balcomie.

Am I going to have to measure fairways on Google Earth? ;)
My friend Bob, who John Mayhugh knows from Sagebrush, and perhaps Kings Putter, arranged the trip, as I had arranged trips to Wales, and to Northern Ireland for him to join in the past. He says he liked Balcomie best. He's weird, as he played abysmally there, narrow corridors and all. ;)
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 21, 2019, 03:13:12 AM
...
There's no way that anyone, with their brain half engaged, could honestly say that Craighead has wider playing corridors than Elie.  Or, for that matter, the Eden.  Or Balcomie.

He says he liked Balcomie best.
I'm sure he wouldn't be alone.  It does have some really good holes (2, 3, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 18) and some spectacular views and gets right down to the sea on more of those than Elie and, obviously, more than Eden.  There's some quirk and it's short.  There's a reason I haven't given up my Crail membership after I got into Elie.  But in the end, Elie is clearly better than Balcomie and beats out the Eden because those new holes at Eden are so bad and even Elie's "breather" holes (7, 14) are good holes (once you get round the concept, on 7, of a par 4 which in the prevailing wind can be reached with a mid-iron)
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Jon Wiggett on June 21, 2019, 12:29:21 PM
Is liking Craighead an age thing?





If Mark likes it obviously not  :-X :D
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ryan Coles on June 21, 2019, 07:35:33 PM
I really liked Craighead. Without speaking up for Garland (again) I played Balcomie on a busy Summer day and it felt claustrophobic with crossovers and groups on the wrong fairway etc. But in its defence the Course was packed. 


Although fairways may not be wider, the Craighead certainly had a more spacious feel the same afternoon. I think the courses complement each other quite well. Many will disagree but I’d take 36 holes there over Lundin & Leven. 


I’d agree with Mark when he says it’s not great land and imagine it wasn’t a big budget. We all liked it but I imagine Mr Hanse would probably pass on it now that his star has risen.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on June 22, 2019, 03:12:12 AM
One of the downsides of Balcomie in Summer months is that the course is always packed.  Crail does very well indeed out of visitor fees and a lot of the local members out of caddying.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ira Fishman on June 22, 2019, 08:37:58 AM
I will take the Four hour Four ball we had at Balcomie on a crowded day over the Five hour round we had the next day at Kingsbarns. KB is the better layout, but it is too slow and more than twice the price.


Ira
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 22, 2019, 03:19:37 PM
This is starting to sound like golf's equivalent to climbing Mt Everest -- travel long distances for a rare opportunity, only to find 6000 people already there & traffic jams all the way to the summit. Maybe it's time for Sean et al to profile and promote GB&I's tier *three* courses!
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Scott Warren on May 04, 2020, 08:28:21 AM
Elie is hell bent on enforcing their arcane rules. As far as I am concerned, they may be part of the reason there is a thread about Scottish golf being in trouble.

Our luggage did not make it with us to Scotland, and my son wore fashionable stretch denim Jean's on the plane for comfort so he did not have his golfing pants to wear. No matter that half the eight or so lads and gents gathered by the first tee were more shoddy in appearance with their old corduroy pants and such. No excuses accepted, and a shallow lecture on tradition was what we got. So their shop made a sale of one pair of pants, which resulted in them no having a chance to sell four meals, and no prospect of at least two of us returning.

If they had some brains they would know their stupid rule was made for the Levi's of old, and enforce it appropriately.

Too bad I'm not a Twitter user so I can excoriate them there too.


Time flies — We are approaching the first anniversary of this most auspicious and wonderful post.


I have made a note in my diary to wear my finest pair of jeans on May 21 in honour of Garland and his son. All are welcome to do likewise.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: BHoover on May 04, 2020, 08:52:02 AM
I love it. This is a moment in GCA history that needs to be commemorated and celebrated, preferably with re-enactments across the globe.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on August 15, 2021, 02:50:59 AM
Delete, sorry.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on March 13, 2022, 03:41:39 AM
Well, I hear the long sock rule has been dropped! Maybe the club will now allow stretch jeans to be worn 😎.

Ciao
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Ben Sims on March 13, 2022, 02:47:04 PM
This has been a great thread that I’d missed somehow. I wonder if Elie has overseas memberships?
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on March 14, 2022, 01:28:40 AM
Deleted
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on March 14, 2022, 01:53:34 PM
Well, I hear the long sock rule has been dropped! Maybe the club will now allow stretch jeans to be worn 😎.

Ciao
Indeed.  Interesting last Summer to see that most members (and most younger members) continued to wear long socks with shorts.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on March 14, 2022, 01:55:06 PM
This has been a great thread that I’d missed somehow. I wonder if Elie has overseas memberships?
Full membership is less than £800 p.a.  I'm not aware of an overseas membership category.  There is a waiting list for membership.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Scott Warren on March 14, 2022, 02:53:27 PM
Interesting about the socks.

I recall being invited to play at Worplesdon with a group of members in 2010 and being told “ignore the bit on the website about short socks being okay - as far as we are concerned the rule is still long socks with shorts!”

I wore trousers. I didn’t think to ask about fashionable stretch denim, but I suspect the answer would have been no.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Michael Whitaker on March 14, 2022, 04:03:43 PM
Well, I hear the long sock rule has been dropped! Maybe the club will now allow stretch jeans to be worn 😎.

Ciao
Indeed.  Interesting last Summer to see that most members (and most younger members) continued to wear long socks with shorts.
I like the long socks. It’s different. Has an old school vibe to it. I hope they keep the stocking rule.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Dan Gallaway on March 14, 2022, 05:06:02 PM
We'll be playing there in mid-May and had every intention of luring one of our group into wearing shorts and short socks to the course as he is unaware of the policy.  I guess we'll just enjoy the course and save the prank for another time.
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Mark Pearce on March 15, 2022, 07:29:47 AM
Well, I hear the long sock rule has been dropped! Maybe the club will now allow stretch jeans to be worn 😎.

Ciao
Indeed.  Interesting last Summer to see that most members (and most younger members) continued to wear long socks with shorts.
I like the long socks. It’s different. Has an old school vibe to it. I hope they keep the stocking rule.
Too late, sadly.  The rule is dead.  Its spirit lives on, though!
Title: Re: GOLF HOUSE CLUB, ELIE
Post by: Sean_A on November 26, 2023, 09:13:13 AM
Thanks to a kind GCAer I was afforded the opportunity to play Elie again. It must have been at least four years since my last visit and I remain as impressed as ever. Please see the updated tour.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63182.msg1504482.html#msg1504482 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63182.msg1504482.html#msg1504482)

Ciao