[Niall C]

Thanks Michael, that's what I was getting at.

Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

I think Sean has Castle Stuart bang on and Masterpiece is an apt description.

I find it a difficult call with Kingsbarns - both are such great fun. What really shone through for me at CS was the attention to detail, they'd clearly agonised over every little aspect. I also think it is a genius routing.

I do believe if they were 150 years old, both would get 9's.

Ryan

As a matter of interest what makes you think it is a genius routing ?

Niall

I tell you what is genius... the beverage station half-way up the climb from 12 to 13 (I assume it's still there). Definitely one of golf's tough walks.

[Sean_A]

I think Sean has Castle Stuart bang on and Masterpiece is an apt description.

I find it a difficult call with Kingsbarns - both are such great fun. What really shone through for me at CS was the attention to detail, they'd clearly agonised over every little aspect. I also think it is a genius routing.

I do believe if they were 150 years old, both would get 9's.

Ryan

As a matter of interest what makes you think it is a genius routing ?

Niall

I tell you what is genius... the beverage station half-way up the climb from 12 to 13 (I assume it's still there). Definitely one of golf's tough walks.

Whitty

Yes, that walk is easily the biggest downer of CS...its quite dreadful in fact, but the free drink machine was awesome! 

Ciao

[Michael Whitaker]

I think Sean has Castle Stuart bang on and Masterpiece is an apt description.

I find it a difficult call with Kingsbarns - both are such great fun. What really shone through for me at CS was the attention to detail, they'd clearly agonised over every little aspect. I also think it is a genius routing.

I do believe if they were 150 years old, both would get 9's.

Ryan

As a matter of interest what makes you think it is a genius routing ?

Niall

I tell you what is genius... the beverage station half-way up the climb from 12 to 13 (I assume it's still there). Definitely one of golf's tough walks.

Whitty

Yes, that walk is easily the biggest downer of CS...its quite dreadful in fact, but the free drink machine was awesome! 

Ciao

Seriously... I do like the "S" shaped routing of 13-18.  And, for what they charge a free drink to break up the walk to 13 is the least they can do.

[Sean_A]

I think Sean has Castle Stuart bang on and Masterpiece is an apt description.

I find it a difficult call with Kingsbarns - both are such great fun. What really shone through for me at CS was the attention to detail, they'd clearly agonised over every little aspect. I also think it is a genius routing.

I do believe if they were 150 years old, both would get 9's.

Ryan

As a matter of interest what makes you think it is a genius routing ?

Niall

I tell you what is genius... the beverage station half-way up the climb from 12 to 13 (I assume it's still there). Definitely one of golf's tough walks.

Whitty

Yes, that walk is easily the biggest downer of CS...its quite dreadful in fact, but the free drink machine was awesome! 

Ciao

Seriously... I do like the "S" shaped routing of 13-18.  And, for what they charge a free drink to break up the walk to 13 is the least they can do.

Bloody southerners!  Here I was thinking it was two in, two back out and two more in to finish at the house 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Yes, Sean, but as Ally (I think) has said above, without  the huge amounts of soil dumped on the 12th to artificially elevate that hole, the walk from 12 to 13 would have been a death march.  Even as it is, a free dram at the beverage machine to keep one's heart stable would be very much appreciated.

[Michael Whitaker]

Yes, Sean, but as Ally (I think) has said above, without  the huge amounts of soil dumped on the 12th to artificially elevate that hole, the walk from 12 to 13 would have been a death march.  Even as it is, a free dram at the beverage machine to keep one's heart stable would be very much appreciated.

For those of us on beta-blockers it is definitely a place to catch our breath! 

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon

I'm not against these bunkers as I think they perform a visual function, not a strategic one, however looking at the hole in it's entirety I really just don't see where the startegy is, not for a player of my moderate ability.

Niall

 

Niall,

before the bunkers were there it was a no brainer for the longer hitters to just whack a draw up the right side of the fairways and let the slope ring it back into the center of the fairway. Now the risk of not pulling this off is ending up in a bunker with little chance of getting to the green. It leaves then the option of hitting a draw along a more central line with the risk of the ball kicking off the down/side slope into said bunkers. That is the strategy of said bunkers.

I agree that they are probably more visual for yourself but do you not agree that a GCA has to think about challenging the widest spectrum of golfers and in doing so will have features that have no relevance to some of the golfers playing?

Jon

[Niall C]

Jon

I'll tell you what I'll do, if I ever make it back to CS I'll play off every tee from back to front and aim at those bunkers and let you know if I manage to get in them or at least as far as them. I'm not expecting I will but we'll see.

Mike/Rich,

The climb was what I was getting at by querying Ryans description of the routing as genius. To me its a compromised routing just to max the split level nature of the site. As well as raising of the 12th they also dug a hell of a hole for the 13th tee so I suppose it could have been worse. Not what you would call minimalism that's for sure.

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon

I'll tell you what I'll do, if I ever make it back to CS I'll play off every tee from back to front and aim at those bunkers and let you know if I manage to get in them or at least as far as them. I'm not expecting I will but we'll see.


Niall

And what do you suppose to prove with that Niall. I am surprised that you think just because a feature does not influence YOUR game that it is of no strategic value to others.

Jon

[Sean_A]

The climb was what I was getting at by querying Ryans description of the routing as genius. To me its a compromised routing just to max the split level nature of the site. As well as raising of the 12th they also dug a hell of a hole for the 13th tee so I suppose it could have been worse.

Niall, for me the course definitely drops a notch or two in quality starting with #12 and the walk to 13 doesn't keep one in the game.  Its a shame because 13 is a good hole if a bit awkward with the dugout fairway and TOC-like moguls shy of the green...maybe a bit too much going on?

Ciao

[Niall C]

Jon

I'll tell you what I'll do, if I ever make it back to CS I'll play off every tee from back to front and aim at those bunkers and let you know if I manage to get in them or at least as far as them. I'm not expecting I will but we'll see.


Niall

And what do you suppose to prove with that Niall. I am surprised that you think just because a feature does not influence YOUR game that it is of no strategic value to others.

Jon

Jon

It won't prove anything as we are talking about a matter of opinion at the end of the day, however as someone who is about an average hitter in terms of the bulk of golfers I'd be interested to see if it could be done for my interest alone at least.

FYI, I bought a brand new driver today and for the first time in my life got fitted for it. To my surprise, and I've been hitting my old one well recently, according to the computer my carry distance with my old driver was only c.200 yards and 210 with the new one. I thought it would be a wee bit more than that. Assuming a neutral wind, do you think I'd get 100 yards of run to reach those bunkers from the green tee ?

Niall

[Niall C]

The climb was what I was getting at by querying Ryans description of the routing as genius. To me its a compromised routing just to max the split level nature of the site. As well as raising of the 12th they also dug a hell of a hole for the 13th tee so I suppose it could have been worse.

Niall, for me the course definitely drops a notch or two in quality starting with #12 and the walk to 13 doesn't keep one in the game.  Its a shame because 13 is a good hole if a bit awkward with the dugout fairway and TOC-like moguls shy of the green...maybe a bit too much going on?

Ciao

Agreed, don't think either holes are bad in their own right. It just seems the routing was a bit forced.

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,

like I said in an earlier post I recon you are about 25ish yards off me so would have put you at around 230 to 240 with roll. Can you get to the bunkers you ask well with a low flight and a decent back wind (wind still on the Scottish coast!!! Now really ) maybe, maybe not

Funny, I like 12 as well and think 13 is a great hole but find the connecting walk the only big negative with the course. I would have ditched the 11th as though it is very pretty it is also one dimensional. That would have left the chance for an uphill par 3 connecting the bottom and top. Not as pretty maybe but certainly would have given the course a better flow IMO

Jon

[Rich Goodale]

The climb was what I was getting at by querying Ryans description of the routing as genius. To me its a compromised routing just to max the split level nature of the site. As well as raising of the 12th they also dug a hell of a hole for the 13th tee so I suppose it could have been worse.

Niall, for me the course definitely drops a notch or two in quality starting with #12 and the walk to 13 doesn't keep one in the game.  Its a shame because 13 is a good hole if a bit awkward with the dugout fairway and TOC-like moguls shy of the green...maybe a bit too much going on?

Ciao

Agreed, don't think either holes are bad in their own right. It just seems the routing was a bit forced.

Niall

Hardly, Niall.  All they needed was an elevator--and it would have been a helluva lot cheaper than digging out the land on the 13th tee and dumping it on the 2nd 1/2 of the 12th fairway, IMHO.

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - have you won the lottery, joined the press core or become a freebie seeker (rater)? You were always making sense around the spiralling cost of green fees, setting limits well under three figures and now it's Skibo and Castle Stuart both of which charge a very good dinner more than the Old Course. I for one do not feel I'm missing out on these fine newbies when £134 paid for three days at Thorpeness, Aldeburgh and Purdis Heath a couple of weeks ago.

[Sean_A]

Chappers

I use the idea that if the course is a Doak 7 then it will earn at least 1* in my book...that doesn't however mean I will will stand at the counter to hand over the green fee.  While Castle Stuart and certainly Carnegie are out of my price range, that is no reason to ignore the quality of the courses.  To be honest, if the greenfee for CS was a more reasonable £100 I would give it a huge boost to 2*....the course is that good. 

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Sean - have you won the lottery, joined the press core or become a freebie seeker (rater)? You were always making sense around the spiralling cost of green fees, setting limits well under three figures and now it's Skibo and Castle Stuart both of which charge a very good dinner more than the Old Course. I for one do not feel I'm missing out on these fine newbies when £134 paid for three days at Thorpeness, Aldeburgh and Purdis Heath a couple of weeks ago.

I thought the same thing.
Methinks his travel business is showing

[James Boon]

Niall,

like I said in an earlier post I recon you are about 25ish yards off me so would have put you at around 230 to 240 with roll. Can you get to the bunkers you ask well with a low flight and a decent back wind (wind still on the Scottish coast!!! Now really ) maybe, maybe not

Funny, I like 12 as well and think 13 is a great hole but find the connecting walk the only big negative with the course. I would have ditched the 11th as though it is very pretty it is also one dimensional. That would have left the chance for an uphill par 3 connecting the bottom and top. Not as pretty maybe but certainly would have given the course a better flow IMO

Jon

Jon,

I actually thought an uphill par 3 at that point might have helped break up the walk, but was certainly going to add an  However, it could have been a homage to the blind uphill long par 3 early in the round at Gullane no 2.

Cheers,

James

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean I'm happy to admire from a distance. I'll be at Pebble Beach in December but wouldn't dream of dropping £350 for a round.

[Jon Cavalier]

Beautiful work, Sean. Thanks.

[Sean_A]

Sean I'm happy to admire from a distance. I'll be at Pebble Beach in December but wouldn't dream of dropping £350 for a round.

Chappers

That is fair enough and I certainly see your PoV. 

Jon - thank you.

Ciao

[Brett_Morrissy]

Let me be clear, Castle Stuart is a masterpiece and should be mentioned in the same sentence with the best GB&I has to offer.  Yes, the course loses its way a bit on the back nine, but that has as much to do with the high standard set by the front nine as anything else.  The location is postcard perfect and the architecture of the clubhouse only enhances the setting.  The location a scant few miles from Inverness Airport, commodious house and soon to be available lodges makes it very easy choice to include Castle Stuart in northern Scotland itinerary.  Let us hope the new Palmer 18 (which I think Parsinen will have two hands in the design) and planned various lodgings don't spoil the scenery or vibe of this most extraordinary course.  1*

Ciao 

Sean, thanks, a terrific tour as always.

I am amazed that an exact mirror image of the routing over both 9's was the final choice. As the front nine is more exposed on the peninsula, is it the wind that adds to the attraction of the F9 over the B9? Or is it just the quality of the holes and attention to detail (and less earth moving). If that is also the case, do you think there may have been discussions to swap the nine's?
Would you have preferred to have commenced your round on the 10th instead of the 1st?

In my experience, the less practiced and finely tuned the golfer, the more they usually 'hit the wall' around holes 13 & 14, (ruining what may have been up that point a good scoring round), so for the steep climb at CS to occur at around that point further increases the level of angst for a climb at that point. Whereas as that kind of angst in a routing at hole 3 is perhaps easily forgotten, as it only gets better from there?

[Sean_A]

Brett

It is the topography which makes each 9 very different.  For me, the front 9 is more attractive because of more holes near water and I think a better mix of holes.  I can fully understand the finish as it is now with the majestic 18th welcoming golfers to the house, but I take your point that getting climbing out of the way early is better.  The 12th and the harsh walk to the next tee are a hiccup which from the sounds of things was hard to avoid given the property, the terrific 11th hole and the concept of 36 holes.  I spose if only 18 was on the cards the archie may never have built 10 or 11. 

No course that I know of is seemingly perfect with the routing, the walk and rhythm of holes. I guess it just comes down to where and how does oe make the sacrifices.  That said, Castle Stuart is excellent despite the hiccup.  I didn't know much about the course so I was taken aback by the sudden unusually uphill 12th and long walk.  It seems to be a issue which is glided over by many.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Brett

It is the topography which makes each 9 very different.  For me, the front 9 is more attractive because of more holes near water and I think a better mix of holes.  I can fully understand the finish as it is now with the majestic 18th welcoming golfers to the house, but I take your point that getting climbing out of the way early is better.  The 12th and the harsh walk to the next tee are a hiccup which from the sounds of things was hard to avoid given the property, the terrific 11th hole and the concept of 36 holes.  I spose if only 18 was on the cards the archie may never have built 10 or 11. 

No course that I know of is seemingly perfect with the routing, the walk and rhythm of holes. I guess it just comes down to where and how does oe make the sacrifices.  That said, Castle Stuart is excellent despite the hiccup.  I didn't know much about the course so I was taken aback by the sudden unusually uphill 12th and long walk.  It seems to be a issue which is glided over by many.

Ciao

Sean,

I actually enjoyed the 12th as it gave a significant elevation change through the hole, something that is not common on the course. It was different and therefore OK by me. Perhaps you are right that the course loses momentum a little between 12 and 17 but if so, it is very minor as I also thought 13 and 14 were good holes and 17 was a fine tough finishing three. I think it is nit picking to say that it is a weaker stretch in the totality of the overall course / experience.

You question whether the architect would have gone down 10 and 11 if the 36 hole plan wasn't on the table. Without knowing for sure, I can be pretty certain that nothing would have changed in that regard if only 18 holes were to be built.... Before they secured new land around the coast for the Palmer course, the second 18 was all going to be based inland of the current course. I certainly would have maximised the lower shelf by the water in any routing and personally I think they dealt with it excellently. I can live with that walk between 12 & 13 for sure. The original second course was on far less appetising land.

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