Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on May 26, 2015, 09:21:08 AM
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Mark Parsinen is often an over-looked figure in the recent renaissance of classic design harkening back to the heady days when Colt, Fowler, Park Jr, Mackenzie, Alison and Simpson held sway in nearly all architectural matters. No stranger to links, Parsinen was delighted in the brilliance of Dornoch as a visitor and later, member, for nearly 35 years. It should come as no surprise then that after successfully developing Kingsbarns, Parsinen would seek out another prominent golf project. The site, a rather awkward assemblage of farming fields over-looking Moray Firth, is not wholly unlike Dornoch in that it is split level. The views are arresting, but it would take a creative design to marry the various fields into a harmonious 18 holes. Step up Gil Hanse, co-designer and with courses such as Rustic Canyon and the Craighead Links under his belt he is no stranger to strategic or seaside design. See the video below for more information on the construction of Castle Stuart.
https://vimeo.com/36066304 (https://vimeo.com/36066304)
The ample width of fairways and fairly large greens surrounded by short grass make it clear Parsinen wanted to buck the recent trend in GB&I of visually attractive, yet overly demanding courses. Living on site for two and half years to ensure his design principles were successfully implemented, Parsinen was clearly determined. On hole after hole it is abundantly obvious the mantras of more than one route to the hole and golf being much more about recovery than perfection are incorporated into the design. I was expecting a monstrously wide course. To the contrary, I experienced a course which is well balanced in terms of width while offering plenty of opportunity for risky play.
With holes such as 2, 3 & 9 the front nine has to be considered among the finest in the British Isles. But first let us back up to #1. The tee shot is visually severe, but the fairway must be at least 50 yards wide with a bit of light rough which can be negotiated without too much difficulty.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4373/36433228335_71ff745dbb_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4373/36433228335_71ff745dbb_b.jpg)
The course really kicks into gear on the par 5 second. This is one of a handful of holes where there is a clear choice to be made off the tee. The higher left side of the fairway will open up the green, but playing to the south east, reaching this green in two will often be daunting task.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4417/35625492773_eee458d490_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4417/35625492773_eee458d490_b.jpg)
It may be wiser to play out left for the second and attack the green head-on.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4376/35625492843_c9e2ea9327_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4376/35625492843_c9e2ea9327_b.jpg)
Moguls await to the left and bunkers to the rear. On more than one occassion one will find bunkers in unlikely places near greens.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4352/36433227905_1b298418b5_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4352/36433227905_1b298418b5_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4357/36433228195_83fa29a58c_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4357/36433228195_83fa29a58c_b.jpg)
The third continues the brilliant golf with another clear choice off the tee...though the better approach is from the right. The bunker protecting this angle is well short of the green. The sub-300 yardage suggests the green is within reach, but playing in the same direction of the 2nd means the wind will more often than not be unfavourable.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4418/36433227565_93c5414705_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4418/36433227565_93c5414705_b.jpg)
It is often the case at Castle Stuart that while the fairways are wide, many greens are not terribly forgiving.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4340/36264899792_dcbca9a7d5_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4340/36264899792_dcbca9a7d5_b.jpg)
One of the real issues with raised greens is deciding where to cut-off the green. To my eye, this cut line visually disturbs the setting, especially with a wavey green edge. It would be better to put up with the maintenance headache and cut the bank at a less obvious height differential to the green.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4392/36433227395_82df22c72e_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4392/36433227395_82df22c72e_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4371/36433227735_cc65f5ab9c_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4371/36433227735_cc65f5ab9c_b.jpg)
More to follow.
Ciao
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As always, great pics and commentary, Sean. Thank you for taking the time to do this.
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Sean
Always a pleasure to read and enjoy one of your course reviews. As usual your pictures don’t disappoint although you are using some interesting angles I notice. The low level holes are the most successful in my view as there is an element of constraint that is missing in the holes on the upper level. They also have more varying fairway levels and when you add the two together it produces the need to consider what line to take off the tee.
So in that respect I agree with your comments that the course isn’t crazily wide and you need to place the ball off the tee, as long as you are talking about these particular holes. I look forward to reading how you explain away some of the holes on the upper level ;D.
Niall
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Niall - by upper level which holes do are you referring to?
CASTLE STUART CONT
The money shot for #4 is straight up the hill toward Castle Stuart, which will presumably be restored as a hotel, but that photo does not fully reflect the true nature of the hole. To my eye it looks like the play is to swing a low runner in from the right as the high bank to the rear of the green is clearly visible from the tee. However, there is a hidden swale mid-right of the green which will foil a shot even the slightest bit off line.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4343/35625491883_9c82f5744a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4343/35625491883_9c82f5744a_b.jpg)
Bunkers up the right wing of the fairway indicate the best line of approach into this deceptively large 5th green. There is a substantial turbo boost for those who can drive the ball past the left bunkers.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4408/35625492503_5e5317bd50_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4408/35625492503_5e5317bd50_b.jpg)
From just past the driving zone one gets a better sense of the green running in from the right.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4376/36433227215_52b62284f9_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4376/36433227215_52b62284f9_b.jpg)
More to follow.
Ciao
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Sean,
I guess it must of been your first play there? Did you like it? Where does it fit on your scale? Do you think it's worth the money? Would you go again or do you have a desire to play it again immediate?
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Sean,
I guess it must of been your first play there? Did you like it? Where does it fit on your scale? Do you think it's worth the money? Would you go again or do you have a desire to play it again immediate?
All in good time David - don't rush the man....... ;)
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Sean,
Thanks for the tour. I am looking forward to the remainder. Interesting to compare your photos with those used in Ran's review. Between the two tours we can get an excellent idea of the course.
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The change in wind direction had been fairly subtle until the 6th hole, which plays in a westerly direction. Not a long par 5, but the location of the green dictates that only the best players should contemplate a go at this green in two. The vast majority of players should concentrate on how to stay right of the well placed, but aesthetically displeasing centre-line bunker some 75 yards short of the long and narrow putting surface.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4358/35625492433_cef2b4350e_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4358/35625492433_cef2b4350e_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4386/36433227035_0e0555a1d2_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4386/36433227035_0e0555a1d2_b.jpg)
Right of the green is no bargain either.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4349/35625492373_49abf8e94d_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4349/35625492373_49abf8e94d_b.jpg)
The 7th features an S hitch in the fairway just about where a good drive wants to finish. Flirting with the chasm on the left leaves a more palatable approach while playing too safely right off the tee will leave a very unpleasant blind shot. There are, however, some saving bunkers between the green and the PLUNGE.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4390/36433226945_81d2056daf_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4390/36433226945_81d2056daf_b.jpg)
The longish one-shotter 8th has a rather large mound situated just so in front the green. The second issue at hand is the wonderful boomerang green which will cause some head scratching should one get the wrong end of the stick.
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The side finishes conveniently at the rather handsome clubhouse. But lets not be too eager for a drink and miss the superb 9th, a short 4 requiring a high degree of accuracy off the tee and the approach. In the right conditions some can have a go at the green from the tee, but it may be wiser to play left and leave oneself a fairly straightforward second. Of course, finding the plateau fairway left side is not a given. Most will be left with the daunting shot seen below after driving right.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4368/35625492233_6dd16fe596_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4368/35625492233_6dd16fe596_b.jpg)
More to follow.
Ciao
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Sean, nice commentary. Here's a link for some missing imagery. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJaa1y-AmEk
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Sean - as always, my thanks. The course too looks lovely. But your juxtaposition several times of 'brilliant golf' and 'clear choices' puzzles me. No, strike that. It *would* puzzle me, except that I've been harping on for two years about how little thinking and choosing is actually required on even the most vaunted and supposedly option-filled strategic courses -- and I feel supported in that view when I read how a first timer can 'learn' all he needs to know in less than one time around.
Not that there's anything *wrong* with that, of course; I've just grown tired of just about every course we like being described as requiring 'thinking'. Any golf course might require *something*, but it's not what can in truth be called 'thinking'. I dare say that more often than not it isn't even 'choices' that are required -- since the dimmest awareness of the quality of one's golf game and the briefest assessment of the weather conditions/wind that day will pretty much make that choice every time (which truth you also suggested, implicitely at least, several times already in your review.)
Don't get me wrong; there must indeed be something that so many folks appreciate about wonderful golf courses. I'm starting to think that what that is can better be described as "artful asymmetry".
Peter
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Pietro
You have lost me. The clear choices comments doesn't mean one choice will always be the best. If the wind comes from a different direction than that may alter the situation. Plus, for the "best" option it usually entails an element of risk. The design will get the golfer on the tee or the approach....the golfer gets to choose his medicine...in my experience this is rarity to see on a large number of holes. The wonderful aspect of the design is if the golfer does go for the optimum tee shot nearly every hole has a bale-out part of the fairway which is hard to ignore. Its awfully enticing to aim down the middle of 50, 60 or 70 yards of fairway rather than voluntarily inviting lost ball into the scenario if one misses on the wrong side of the best angle. In all earnest, one doesn't get a sense of what wide provides unless he sees it in person. In effect, death by a thousand cuts is on offer if the golfer allows himself to be lulled into the middle of the fairway on hole after hole...at least if there is a decent wind about. In calm conditions I expect the riskiness of the design is to a degree mitigated. I reckon we had about 15-17 mph winds which is more than most golfers need, but the design held up wonderfully.
CASTLE STUART CONT
The 10th transitions back down to the lowest shelf. There is a lower tee which entails a steep walk. We had a conversation about the high tee not working well on this hole. Just as I normally don't want to walk for a high tee, I don't want to walk for a low tee. As is usually the case with high tees, it is difficult to judge the strength of a cross wind. In the case of the 10th with wind off the left it takes some nerve to aim at the water. The hole isn't terribly long so one can lay-up to the fat part of the fairway short of the bunker, but again, temptation is tough to overcome.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4391/35625492193_601d1f8af8_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4391/35625492193_601d1f8af8_b.jpg)
Again, I am not convinced the clean style of bunkering works well in the fairway, but the sand is perfectly placed.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4429/36433226675_f82a964c3a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4429/36433226675_f82a964c3a_b.jpg)
The sharp rise is well disguised for those coming in from the right. However, the angle of the slope will allow for a run-up shot if one accurately judges the carry and ball flight, but the ball will naturally head for the left side of the green. The more difficult task will be to control the distance as the green feeds away from play.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4334/36433226525_32871bb2b3_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4334/36433226525_32871bb2b3_b.jpg)
I expect many will cite the short 11th as their favourite hole and that wouldn't be a bad call as it is a welcome change of pace demanding an accurate shot.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4356/36264899692_23bfd15d2c_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4356/36264899692_23bfd15d2c_b.jpg)
We now start the arduous transition back up to the higher level...in stages. The par 5 12th is uphill and the walk to 13 tee is severely uphill. No question for me the course now feels different until we make the turn for home on 17. I think the amount of dirt pushed around on the 12 & 13th may be more than the first 11 holes combined! That said, the uphill 13th is an interesting hole with a clear choice; aim left at the bunker or go right for more distance. This hole too is one of the few on which sand offers some aiming assistance. Many of the tee shots are wide open.
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For those coming in from the right there is a mess of moguls which reminds one of the 2nd hole at TOC.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4427/36264900022_909d47418d_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4427/36264900022_909d47418d_b.jpg)
More to follow.
Ciao
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Sean
1-3 and 10-12 are lower level and everything else I think of as upper level. I appreciate that the upper level holes play on top of and either side of a ridge but the main elevational differences are quite obviously between the holes along the water as mentioned and the other holes.
Niall
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Sean,
The most dirt moved was on the 12th where the entire uphill climb was built to shorten the green to tee transition to 13, the tees of which look like they were lowered considerably too.
Ally
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Sean
Re 5th hole. - either they have relocated the RHS fairway bunkers or you are kidding everyone on that they are guarding the best line in. Your photo tends to suggest that the distance between the LHS fairway bunkers and the RHS ones isn't that great but in reality, and looking from the tee (presumably your photo was taken from left rough part of the way up the fairway), the two sets of bunkers are miles apart (c.150 yards ?) with the RHS ones being well out of reach of a good amateur in most conditions. They are also way off the line of play. I suspect there intended use is purely a visual one.
This was one of the holes that I was referring to about excessive width. I also note they appear to have brought the fairways in a bit by creating some semi-rough.
Niall
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I didn't hit a great tee shot which never touched the fairway and I was well past the left bunkers...its only 220 to cover them. The right bunkers must be about 275ish or so from the Green tee...not a huge hit downwind and with a turbo boost. My playing partner wasn't striping the ball and he was about level with bunkers.... We can disagree about the angle in....I would much rather be right where I can see the green than left where it was blind. Jeepers, I didn't even think this fairway was particularly wide. For the those going past the left bunkers its maybe 45-50 yards wide...what I think a pretty standard links fairway should be...unfortunately, this is rarely the case.
Ciao
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Niall,
Regarding 5, what do you mean by, "they are also way off the line off play"?. I would agree that they are really not in play, but the ideal line from the tee is not too far away from the left edge of these traps. It's quite an interesting tee shot with clever use of the brow and consequent void, giving the golfer the feeling that those bunkers ARE in play, when they are really way out of reach.
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Sean,
The distances to the first RHS trap on 5 are: 352 from the blacks, 335 from the whites and 306 from the greens.
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A course on two levels.
A few other courses around the NE Scottish coast are on two levels or have a higher inland level where a hole or two or even a few are located - Royal Dornoch, Nairn, Cruden Bay, Royal Aberdeen being examples of the more famous ones.
An raised beach line from millions of years ago maybe?
atb
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Sean
Green tees !? This is shaping up to be another forward tees debacle just like Silloth ;D.
Bear in mind also the last 50 yards or so to the RHS bunkers is uphill.
Niall
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Thanks, Sean, for a beautiful tour of a beautiful course. It looks to be in incredible shape (assuming these pictures were taken recently). And thank you for your commentary, which always sets your tours apart and makes them especially informative. To that end, I have to ask: What prompted the word change in the subject line from the initial "Considerable" to the current "Capacious"?
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Thanks for the tour Sean.
The discussion of the 5th is interesting as when I played the course in 2010 the bunkers being discussed were not there and the fairway was the main culprit for some of my comments regarding the course perhaps being overly wide in places. I actually have a sketch I did for fun of some bunkers that I would have proposed which seem to be in the exact same position as the current bunkers on the RHS. Considering they have been introduced since then and their distance from the tees it seems fairly obvious to suggest the main driving force for them was the pro's and the Scottish Open for better or worse. To me it seems like they make the hole more interesting as I agree with Sean in saying that the right is the preferred side to attack the green from given the angle of the green and ground short and left of it. Am I right in remembering that the drive is generally downhill too? I'm pretty sure I remember it playing downwind when I was there to, with the firm ground this makes me think they would be reach for many golfers playing from suitable tees.
The greens are the general 'daily play' tees or equivalent of the usual yellows used at most clubs if I remember rightly so not particularly far 'forward'.
Overall I loved the place.
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"Am I right in remembering that the drive is generally downhill too?"
Tom K. -
If anything, as shown by Sean's pics #5 at CS plays a little uphill.
DT
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"Am I right in remembering that the drive is generally downhill too?"
Tom K. -
If anything, as shown by Sean's pics #5 at CS plays a little uphill.
DT
It looks to me from the photos and I remember it playing along a relatively flat section before dropping into a dip shy of where the RHS bunkers are before rising slightly again to the green. Can a drive realistically carry to the start of the dip to get an extra push forward?
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Tom
The problem with super wide and large scale fairways is that when you stick a bunker to the side of them they look kind of ridiculous and irrelevant. Sean does a great job with his camera angle of making the LHS and RHS bunkers appear not that wide apart or indeed that distant to each other but in reality, as you look at it from the tee, they are miles apart.
You might be right in saying the bunkers were put in for the pro's as they went in after Monty made his comments about bunkering. However given they are 352 from the back tees according to Mark's yardages, I have to wonder whether they get any use.
Mark
I've played the course before the bunkering several times, and maybe its like a blind hole that you rmember what's there second time round, I really wasn't fooled on the tee into thinking those bunkers were within reach but this is a resort course so I've got to think they are more about visual trickery or even as a target for the repeat golfer rather than something to think about having to avoid.
Niall
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You might be right in saying the bunkers were put in for the pro's as they went in after Monty made his comments about bunkering. However given they are 352 from the back tees according to Mark's yardages, I have to wonder whether they get any use.
I saw Nicolas Colsearts hit a 3-wood over 300 yards uphill on the 3rd at Wentworth last Saturday. I'm pretty sure they will get some use even off the back tees when the pros visit.
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But lets not be too eager for a drink and miss the superb 9th, a short 4 requiring a high degree of accuracy either off the tee or for the approach. In the right conditions some can have a go at the green from the tee, but it may be wiser to play left and leave oneself a fairly straightforward second. Of course, finding the plateau left side is not a given. Most will be left with the daunting shot seen below.
Sean
Was this your first time playing the course ? Who do you think is going to have a go at that green (assuming they are not playing from the forward tees) ? It's all carry over a fairly deep gully. The question surely is to go left and have a short/mid iron on the level to the green but over the gully, or drive down the right and have to hit up to the green but without the gully/bunker to get over.
Niall
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You might be right in saying the bunkers were put in for the pro's as they went in after Monty made his comments about bunkering. However given they are 352 from the back tees according to Mark's yardages, I have to wonder whether they get any use.
I saw Nicolas Colsearts hit a 3-wood over 300 yards uphill on the 3rd at Wentworth last Saturday. I'm pretty sure they will get some use even off the back tees when the pros visit.
Tom
Colsearts is one of the big hitters on tour. There are probably maybe a handful who can hit it as far ? So that means every few years when the European Tour pays a visit, half a dozen pros (assuming they all decide to hit driver) who if they can hit it that far will likely be aiming more at the green rather than hugging the right hand side of the fairway anyway, hit it 20/30 yards off-line may end up in that bunker, is that what you are saying ? I tend to think there's far more chance of a twice a year hacker shanking his 5th or 6th shot in there than of a pro finding the bunker.
Niall
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Niall,
Checkout Ran's tour. The quote for hole 5
"Tweaking continues at Castle Stuart. These two pot bunkers seen long right at the 360 yard mark from the tee were added after studying play for two years. Castle Stuart’s firm running conditions are such that the pair are in play on downwind days."
I haven't played CS, but could see how bunkers are in play on downwind days. I rather like that as a concept: accuracy should be put on premium when distance is aided by wind.
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Niall,
Checkout Ran's tour. The quote for hole 5
"Tweaking continues at Castle Stuart. These two pot bunkers seen long right at the 360 yard mark from the tee were added after studying play for two years. Castle Stuart’s firm running conditions are such that the pair are in play on downwind days."
I haven't played CS, but could see how bunkers are in play on downwind days. I rather like that as a concept: accuracy should be put on premium when distance is aided by wind.
Accuracdy, yes, Alex, but prudence (i.e. lay up with your 350 yard downwind club) is better!
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Mark & Niall
Okay, I didn't realize the bunkers were 300 yards, but I still wouldn't say they are out of play....just not something to worry much about. Regardless, I don’t think the fairway is unnecessarily wide...which is your point...no?
I could never have a go at #9, but I am not the longest nor most stupid golfer in the bunch. For me, the left side is the clear play.
Benjamin - I think capacious flows better with Castle and better conveys the amount space on the course....which has to be CS's overall stand-out feature.
CASTLE STUART CONT.
14 and 15 are not really to my liking. They are far from poor holes, but each has a niggling feature which annoys. 14 has the odd looking fairway bunker whose placement is similar to a few previous holes and 15 has the S hitch somewhat like the 7th, but not as well conceived. The short two-shotter 16th, while odd looking, is however a very good hole. The sudden appearance of heather is surprising and welcome. I could identify the way into the green was up the right, but a swale must be negotiated. The fairway is absolutely massive and this is the one hole where I question the ample space left, but this is a minor quibble.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4434/35625492113_af8792d2d7_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4434/35625492113_af8792d2d7_b.jpg)
More to follow.
Ciao
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Niall,
having played the course several times my take on the tee shot at #5 is it is a decision between laying up on the left side of the fairway on the top level short of the bunkers. This leaves a long second shot but one that is played straight up the step in front of the green so as the ball is not deflected away to the left. Or you can try to hit a sight draw right of center hoping to get a big kick forward from the downslope without going too far right. If successful you are left with a mid to short iron but if the ball is kicked to the right you are left with tricky shot where you are tiptoeing between the diagonal front slope and the slope to the right of the green both of which will throw your ball to the left. Note, from the right side of the fairway the ball will almost certainly be above the feet for a right hander who must try to play a slight cut.
Downwind, with a hard bounce the r/h bunkers are in range for someone who hits the ball 250/60ish of the tee from the standard tees.
Jon
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It is very strange that we should be discussing #5 as if it were in the least controversial. Jon is spot on with his observations and obviously so.
CASTLE STUART CONT
We now turn and make the final push for home. The set of par 3s is very good, but I question the wisdom of introducing a back breaking one-shotter so late in the game. For all and sundry, due to the large fairway, the hole sets up visually like a short par 4. There is a certain element of comfort in the left to right movement, but the wind off the Moray Firth will often negate this advantage.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4350/36433226355_24016c0fc5_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4350/36433226355_24016c0fc5_b.jpg)
The home hole is a bit of a modern cliche as a par 5 with an element of risk in going for the green in two. There is an obvious tee shot line toward the proudly flapping Saltire left of the house, but to be honest the fairway is perhaps overly forgiving. Below is the dangerous shot.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4428/35625491793_3fac108152_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4428/35625491793_3fac108152_b.jpg)
And how the shot will look if one hits a rope on the Saltire.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4350/35625492023_d02b02f821_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4350/35625492023_d02b02f821_b.jpg)
Let me be clear, Castle Stuart is a masterpiece and should be mentioned in the same sentence with the best GB&I has to offer. Yes, the course loses its way a bit on the back nine, but that has as much to do with the high standard set by the front nine as anything else. The location is postcard perfect and the architecture of the clubhouse only enhances the setting. The location a scant few miles from Inverness Airport, commodious house and soon to be available lodges makes it a very easy choice to include Castle Stuart in northern Scotland itinerary. Let us hope the new Palmer 18 (which I think Parsinen will have two hands in the design) and planned various lodgings don't spoil the scenery or vibe of this extraordinary course. 1* 2015
Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/scotland/castle-stuart-golf-links/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/scotland/castle-stuart-golf-links/)
Ciao
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"Commodious accommodation?" Please elucidate, Sean.
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Niall,
Checkout Ran's tour. The quote for hole 5
"Tweaking continues at Castle Stuart. These two pot bunkers seen long right at the 360 yard mark from the tee were added after studying play for two years. Castle Stuart’s firm running conditions are such that the pair are in play on downwind days."
I haven't played CS, but could see how bunkers are in play on downwind days. I rather like that as a concept: accuracy should be put on premium when distance is aided by wind.
Alex
I've played the course 5 or 6 times in various wind conditions and over several years so have witnessed various course changes as they have happened. I also hit a decent ball, not a long ball but a decent one off the tee and have played at CS with better/longer players than me and have never seen anyone get near to the position of those RHS bunkers. Admittedly that is a small sample but I tend to think it illustrates that a bunker some 300 hundred odd yards distant to the side of a 40/50 yard fairway and well off the line of play isn't going to get much action.
Irrespective of what Ran says in his course tour, I think it fairly obvious that the point of the RHS bunkers, like much at CS, is largely visual rather than having any real strategic/penal value. For instance, think of what the ODG's from the golden age would have made of these RHS bunkers. They were for ever bringing in bunkers closer to the line of play to catch nearly good shots rather than bad shots. Arguably this is a throw back to before the golden age of architecture.
Niall
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"Commodious accommodation?" Please elucidate, Sean.
;D
Ciao
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It is very strange that we should be discussing #5 as if it were in the least controverial. Jon is spot on with his observations and obviously so.
[
Sean
Jon is a professional golfer. He might be able to draw or fade the ball to order but most of us show up with one shot shape and get on with it. He also hits the ball a long way with only an old steel shaft and a lump of iron at the bottom which if I recall he euthemistically calls a rescue club. I could therefore well believe that Jon might be able to get into those bunkers on occasion although being a first class golfer he would be smart enough to avoid doing this, which was the point Rich made. The rest of us needn't worry about these bunkers as we'll never get there with our tee shot, and they will never be in the line of play for the approach, which was the point I was making.
So why have them ? Well the answer is obvious and not in the way you think. As I said to Alex, the reason is I think clearly visual. It's no accident that they can be seen from the tee just above the ridge line where the fairway falls away. They are there to deceive/challenge the first time visitor and make them think about line and length of tee shot. Once you've played it you know theres nothing to worry about and they simply become an aiming point. The 7th at Silloth used to have a similar bunker (before your time) and was filled in recent years, largely because it was redundant and to save money on not having to keep it. If CS was a members club I've no doubt that these RHS bunkers would go the same way.
As for why discuss it, well I think it illustrative in many ways of the rest of the course and even sums up Mark Parsinens philosophy of look hard play easy. I think that works well the first or maybe second time round, but eventually even this hacker likes a bit more challenge beyond trying to make decent contact with the ball.
Overall a very interesting course with a lot of interesting stuff and ideas that are worthy of discussion. I'm just not sure that all the clever ideas are worthwhile or have come off as intended.
Niall
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Sean
Final comment/question. You refer to the "obvious tee shot line" being to aim for the flag. Was that because someone told you to do that or did you intuitively feel that was the line ? The reason I ask is I recall Boony making comment when he played there that he thought or had assumed that the fairway was further to the right and even with that forwarning, and having played the course a couple of times, I still managed to catch myself out by aiming right of the "proper" line.
Niall
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Niall,
I recon I hit it about 25 yards past you on average and perhaps another 10 yards on top if we both bust it however thanks for the complement of having shots to order which was once true but lately (last 20 years) I often order the wrong thing ;D.
It seems to me that you are against the rhs bunkers because they only come into play for a small number of players. If this is the case then most hazards off the tee should be scrapped.
Jon
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Jon, do you really think that a guy who hits it 260 should be playing from the green tees? Firm, fast fairways at 6100 yards.
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Gentleman -
Given that a stiff breeze at Castle Stuart can come from the west or from the east and given the number tee boxes on each hole, I do think trying to discuss distances and evaluate the position of certain hazards at Castle Stuart is a bit of a fool's errand. Clearly some hazards on some holes will come into play for some players on some days and they will not on other days. It is a simple as that.
DT
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Sean,
Thanks for the photos. Glad to see you make it to one of my favourite parts of the World and enjoy the golf (here and further north).
Gentleman -
Given that a stiff breeze at Castle Stuart can come from the west or from the east and given the number tee boxes on each hole, I do think trying to discuss distances and evaluate the position of certain hazards at Castle Stuart is a bit of a fool's errand. Clearly some hazards on some holes will come into play for some players on some days and they will not on other days. It is a simple as that.
DT
That's a good point David, there seems to be a general feel around here that course exposed to the wind should have wider fairways, and so to some extent surely the same goes the variety of bunker positions along the hole, some closer to the tee, others much further away.
I've only played CS 4 or 5 times and its mostly been into a big west wind. I expected a few pics of the 16th from Sean as a fan of short par 4s? What did you think Sean? Last time I played it was a 3 wood downwind on 16 as I felt just short was better than in the back bunkers, followed by the same club on 17! In those sort of winds, I can imagine people getting close to the bunkers on 5... ::)
As for the 18th that Niall mentions, yes I remember reading that the line was on the flagpole, but it felt further right visually when I first played it.
Cheers,
James
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Jon, do you really think that a guy who hits it 260 should be playing from the green tees? Firm, fast fairways at 6100 yards.
Mark,
though I do not think someone should play from too far back in the end I think it is up to the player themselves to decide. If you think I shouldn't play from the green tees because they are just 6100 then that means I could not play the majority of courses in Scotland. Having said all that I never said I played from the green tee did I!!!
Firm fairways, downhill, downwind means 260 can easily be 320+
Jon
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Sean,
I guess it must of been your first play there? Did you like it? Where does it fit on your scale? Do you think it's worth the money? Would you go again or do you have a desire to play it again immediate?
Ok I was patient enough! Sean what's your answer now that your finished with the tour. It's not like I'm just going to let you off the hook...
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DD
There is usually a desire to play the best courses. However, as much as I admire and think the course is great, it’s a bit expensive for my pocketbook. That said, I wouldn't rule out paying to play it again because it’s so close to the airport. Many likely think CS is one of those modern courses which is worth a look or two. I think CS is far better than that and from a design PoV as good as the best courses in GB&I...but only one star for my scale just because of the cost. It really is a pleasure to get a glimpse of how and why wide works on links...the theoretical talk is over. For me, it’s a good leap better than Trump Aberdeen and because of the width a good leap better than Renaissance. I have only walked Kingsbarns so I don't have a good feel for it. I don't think there are any other GB&I moderns in the mix for best...are there?
Niall
An element you forget about with the RH bunkers on #5 is the recovery value. Some of the best bunkers are placed to threaten tee shots and recoveries.
RE 18: no I didn't read about the flag as a line, but its an obvious line which is in effect the middle of the fairway. Sure folks can go 20 yards right, but there isn't much point unless you intend to go for broke. To me as a modest hitter the more sensible thing is to play short of the green and hope it takes the kick forward rather than a full on assualt over the sand.
Boony - I liked 16 a lot. Its a sleeper hole which sounds off birdie, but is harder to achieve than it looks. No question the bunkers can be in play on #5. As I say, my playing partner was damn near with them and it wasn't super windy or super firm.
Ciao
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I think Sean has Castle Stuart bang on and Masterpiece is an apt description.
I find it a difficult call with Kingsbarns - both are such great fun. What really shone through for me at CS was the attention to detail, they'd clearly agonised over every little aspect. I also think it is a genius routing.
I do believe if they were 150 years old, both would get 9's.
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Gentleman -
Given that a stiff breeze at Castle Stuart can come from the west or from the east and given the number tee boxes on each hole, I do think trying to discuss distances and evaluate the position of certain hazards at Castle Stuart is a bit of a fool's errand. Clearly some hazards on some holes will come into play for some players on some days and they will not on other days. It is a simple as that.
DT
David
I agree in the sense that you can't be definitive and say no one who hits the ball less than 350 off the tips will get in that bunker, as conditions ie. wind and run, can and do vary from moment to moment. What you can do is try and figure out how often they will be in play in various conditions, from various tees and for various strength of players. I think considering all the variables it's fair to say that in only a very small percentage of time will those bunkers be in play. That being the case, to my mind they are clearly more for visual effect rather than having any startegic significance.
Jon
I'm not against these bunkers as I think they perform a visual function, not a strategic one, however looking at the hole in it's entirety I really just don't see where the startegy is, not for a player of my moderate ability.
Niall
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Niall
An element you forget about with the RH bunkers on #5 is the recovery value. Some of the best bunkers are placed to threaten tee shots and recoveries.
RE 18: no I didn't read about the flag as a line, but its an obvious line which is in effect the middle of the fairway. Sure folks can go 20 yards right, but there isn't much point unless you intend to go for broke. To me as a modest hitter the more sensible thing is to play short of the green and hope it takes the kick forward rather than a full on assualt over the sand.
Sean
I'm not really sure what you mean by "recovery value", and being there to "threaten tee shots and recoveries". Do you mean the traditional use of a bunker as a hazard ?
Re the 18th tee shot, what I was getting at was whether you intuitively knew where the fairway was over the rise or whether someone told you that aiming on the flag pole was the line. Or indeed did you just assume that being a modern course, aiming for the landmark in the background must be the play ;D.
Seriously though, what told you what the correct line was ?
Niall
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I think Sean has Castle Stuart bang on and Masterpiece is an apt description.
I find it a difficult call with Kingsbarns - both are such great fun. What really shone through for me at CS was the attention to detail, they'd clearly agonised over every little aspect. I also think it is a genius routing.
I do believe if they were 150 years old, both would get 9's.
Ryan
As a matter of interest what makes you think it is a genius routing ?
Niall
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Niall
An element you forget about with the RH bunkers on #5 is the recovery value. Some of the best bunkers are placed to threaten tee shots and recoveries.
RE 18: no I didn't read about the flag as a line, but its an obvious line which is in effect the middle of the fairway. Sure folks can go 20 yards right, but there isn't much point unless you intend to go for broke. To me as a modest hitter the more sensible thing is to play short of the green and hope it takes the kick forward rather than a full on assualt over the sand.
Sean
I'm not really sure what you mean by "recovery value", and being there to "threaten tee shots and recoveries". Do you mean the traditional use of a bunker as a hazard ?
Re the 18th tee shot, what I was getting at was whether you intuitively knew where the fairway was over the rise or whether someone told you that aiming on the flag pole was the line. Or indeed did you just assume that being a modern course, aiming for the landmark in the background must be the play ;D.
Seriously though, what told you what the correct line was ?
Niall
Niall
If I recall correctly the course guide that is included in the welcome pack states that the ideal line on the 18th is the Saltire. I know what you mean though, the first time I played, it seemed like the ideal line was further right than the flag pole.
Michael
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Niall
An element you forget about with the RH bunkers on #5 is the recovery value. Some of the best bunkers are placed to threaten tee shots and recoveries.
RE 18: no I didn't read about the flag as a line, but its an obvious line which is in effect the middle of the fairway. Sure folks can go 20 yards right, but there isn't much point unless you intend to go for broke. To me as a modest hitter the more sensible thing is to play short of the green and hope it takes the kick forward rather than a full on assualt over the sand.
Sean
I'm not really sure what you mean by "recovery value", and being there to "threaten tee shots and recoveries". Do you mean the traditional use of a bunker as a hazard ?
Re the 18th tee shot, what I was getting at was whether you intuitively knew where the fairway was over the rise or whether someone told you that aiming on the flag pole was the line. Or indeed did you just assume that being a modern course, aiming for the landmark in the background must be the play ;D.
Seriously though, what told you what the correct line was ?
Niall
Recovery value for bunkers is when guys hit poor drives....they then need to be mindful of the bunkers. I don't like too much of this kind of bunkering like we see on championship courses which are littered with the concept, but once in a while is good, especially if they are in play for a big drive.
Quite literally, I saw the Saltire on 18 and thought that must be the line...why else have the flag there? As I say, one can go right, but I am not convinced flirting with the right rough is a smart play. The course is full of these sorts of driving choices.
Ciao
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Thanks Michael, that's what I was getting at.
Niall
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I think Sean has Castle Stuart bang on and Masterpiece is an apt description.
I find it a difficult call with Kingsbarns - both are such great fun. What really shone through for me at CS was the attention to detail, they'd clearly agonised over every little aspect. I also think it is a genius routing.
I do believe if they were 150 years old, both would get 9's.
Ryan
As a matter of interest what makes you think it is a genius routing ?
Niall
I tell you what is genius... the beverage station half-way up the climb from 12 to 13 (I assume it's still there). Definitely one of golf's tough walks.
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I think Sean has Castle Stuart bang on and Masterpiece is an apt description.
I find it a difficult call with Kingsbarns - both are such great fun. What really shone through for me at CS was the attention to detail, they'd clearly agonised over every little aspect. I also think it is a genius routing.
I do believe if they were 150 years old, both would get 9's.
Ryan
As a matter of interest what makes you think it is a genius routing ?
Niall
I tell you what is genius... the beverage station half-way up the climb from 12 to 13 (I assume it's still there). Definitely one of golf's tough walks.
Whitty
Yes, that walk is easily the biggest downer of CS...its quite dreadful in fact, but the free drink machine was awesome!
Ciao
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I think Sean has Castle Stuart bang on and Masterpiece is an apt description.
I find it a difficult call with Kingsbarns - both are such great fun. What really shone through for me at CS was the attention to detail, they'd clearly agonised over every little aspect. I also think it is a genius routing.
I do believe if they were 150 years old, both would get 9's.
Ryan
As a matter of interest what makes you think it is a genius routing ?
Niall
I tell you what is genius... the beverage station half-way up the climb from 12 to 13 (I assume it's still there). Definitely one of golf's tough walks.
Whitty
Yes, that walk is easily the biggest downer of CS...its quite dreadful in fact, but the free drink machine was awesome!
Ciao
Seriously... I do like the "S" shaped routing of 13-18. And, for what they charge a free drink to break up the walk to 13 is the least they can do.
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I think Sean has Castle Stuart bang on and Masterpiece is an apt description.
I find it a difficult call with Kingsbarns - both are such great fun. What really shone through for me at CS was the attention to detail, they'd clearly agonised over every little aspect. I also think it is a genius routing.
I do believe if they were 150 years old, both would get 9's.
Ryan
As a matter of interest what makes you think it is a genius routing ?
Niall
I tell you what is genius... the beverage station half-way up the climb from 12 to 13 (I assume it's still there). Definitely one of golf's tough walks.
Whitty
Yes, that walk is easily the biggest downer of CS...its quite dreadful in fact, but the free drink machine was awesome!
Ciao
Seriously... I do like the "S" shaped routing of 13-18. And, for what they charge a free drink to break up the walk to 13 is the least they can do.
Bloody southerners! Here I was thinking it was two in, two back out and two more in to finish at the house ;)
Ciao
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Yes, Sean, but as Ally (I think) has said above, without the huge amounts of soil dumped on the 12th to artificially elevate that hole, the walk from 12 to 13 would have been a death march. Even as it is, a free dram at the beverage machine to keep one's heart stable would be very much appreciated.
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Yes, Sean, but as Ally (I think) has said above, without the huge amounts of soil dumped on the 12th to artificially elevate that hole, the walk from 12 to 13 would have been a death march. Even as it is, a free dram at the beverage machine to keep one's heart stable would be very much appreciated.
For those of us on beta-blockers it is definitely a place to catch our breath! ;D
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Jon
I'm not against these bunkers as I think they perform a visual function, not a strategic one, however looking at the hole in it's entirety I really just don't see where the startegy is, not for a player of my moderate ability.
Niall
Niall,
before the bunkers were there it was a no brainer for the longer hitters to just whack a draw up the right side of the fairways and let the slope ring it back into the center of the fairway. Now the risk of not pulling this off is ending up in a bunker with little chance of getting to the green. It leaves then the option of hitting a draw along a more central line with the risk of the ball kicking off the down/side slope into said bunkers. That is the strategy of said bunkers.
I agree that they are probably more visual for yourself but do you not agree that a GCA has to think about challenging the widest spectrum of golfers and in doing so will have features that have no relevance to some of the golfers playing?
Jon
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Jon
I'll tell you what I'll do, if I ever make it back to CS I'll play off every tee from back to front and aim at those bunkers and let you know if I manage to get in them or at least as far as them. I'm not expecting I will but we'll see.
Mike/Rich,
The climb was what I was getting at by querying Ryans description of the routing as genius. To me its a compromised routing just to max the split level nature of the site. As well as raising of the 12th they also dug a hell of a hole for the 13th tee so I suppose it could have been worse. Not what you would call minimalism that's for sure.
Niall
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Jon
I'll tell you what I'll do, if I ever make it back to CS I'll play off every tee from back to front and aim at those bunkers and let you know if I manage to get in them or at least as far as them. I'm not expecting I will but we'll see.
Niall
And what do you suppose to prove with that Niall. I am surprised that you think just because a feature does not influence YOUR game that it is of no strategic value to others.
Jon
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The climb was what I was getting at by querying Ryans description of the routing as genius. To me its a compromised routing just to max the split level nature of the site. As well as raising of the 12th they also dug a hell of a hole for the 13th tee so I suppose it could have been worse.
Niall, for me the course definitely drops a notch or two in quality starting with #12 and the walk to 13 doesn't keep one in the game. Its a shame because 13 is a good hole if a bit awkward with the dugout fairway and TOC-like moguls shy of the green...maybe a bit too much going on?
Ciao
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Jon
I'll tell you what I'll do, if I ever make it back to CS I'll play off every tee from back to front and aim at those bunkers and let you know if I manage to get in them or at least as far as them. I'm not expecting I will but we'll see.
Niall
And what do you suppose to prove with that Niall. I am surprised that you think just because a feature does not influence YOUR game that it is of no strategic value to others.
Jon
Jon
It won't prove anything as we are talking about a matter of opinion at the end of the day, however as someone who is about an average hitter in terms of the bulk of golfers I'd be interested to see if it could be done for my interest alone at least.
FYI, I bought a brand new driver today and for the first time in my life got fitted for it. To my surprise, and I've been hitting my old one well recently, according to the computer my carry distance with my old driver was only c.200 yards and 210 with the new one. I thought it would be a wee bit more than that. Assuming a neutral wind, do you think I'd get 100 yards of run to reach those bunkers from the green tee ?
Niall
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The climb was what I was getting at by querying Ryans description of the routing as genius. To me its a compromised routing just to max the split level nature of the site. As well as raising of the 12th they also dug a hell of a hole for the 13th tee so I suppose it could have been worse.
Niall, for me the course definitely drops a notch or two in quality starting with #12 and the walk to 13 doesn't keep one in the game. Its a shame because 13 is a good hole if a bit awkward with the dugout fairway and TOC-like moguls shy of the green...maybe a bit too much going on?
Ciao
Agreed, don't think either holes are bad in their own right. It just seems the routing was a bit forced.
Niall
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Niall,
like I said in an earlier post I recon you are about 25ish yards off me so would have put you at around 230 to 240 with roll. Can you get to the bunkers you ask well with a low flight and a decent back wind (wind still on the Scottish coast!!! Now really ::)) maybe, maybe not :-\
Funny, I like 12 as well and think 13 is a great hole but find the connecting walk the only big negative with the course. I would have ditched the 11th as though it is very pretty it is also one dimensional. That would have left the chance for an uphill par 3 connecting the bottom and top. Not as pretty maybe but certainly would have given the course a better flow IMO
Jon
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The climb was what I was getting at by querying Ryans description of the routing as genius. To me its a compromised routing just to max the split level nature of the site. As well as raising of the 12th they also dug a hell of a hole for the 13th tee so I suppose it could have been worse.
Niall, for me the course definitely drops a notch or two in quality starting with #12 and the walk to 13 doesn't keep one in the game. Its a shame because 13 is a good hole if a bit awkward with the dugout fairway and TOC-like moguls shy of the green...maybe a bit too much going on?
Ciao
Agreed, don't think either holes are bad in their own right. It just seems the routing was a bit forced.
Niall
Hardly, Niall. All they needed was an elevator--and it would have been a helluva lot cheaper than digging out the land on the 13th tee and dumping it on the 2nd 1/2 of the 12th fairway, IMHO.
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Sean - have you won the lottery, joined the press core or become a freebie seeker (rater)? You were always making sense around the spiralling cost of green fees, setting limits well under three figures and now it's Skibo and Castle Stuart both of which charge a very good dinner more than the Old Course. I for one do not feel I'm missing out on these fine newbies when £134 paid for three days at Thorpeness, Aldeburgh and Purdis Heath a couple of weeks ago.
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Chappers
I use the idea that if the course is a Doak 7 then it will earn at least 1* in my book...that doesn't however mean I will will stand at the counter to hand over the green fee. While Castle Stuart and certainly Carnegie are out of my price range, that is no reason to ignore the quality of the courses. To be honest, if the greenfee for CS was a more reasonable £100 I would give it a huge boost to 2*....the course is that good.
Ciao
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Sean - have you won the lottery, joined the press core or become a freebie seeker (rater)? You were always making sense around the spiralling cost of green fees, setting limits well under three figures and now it's Skibo and Castle Stuart both of which charge a very good dinner more than the Old Course. I for one do not feel I'm missing out on these fine newbies when £134 paid for three days at Thorpeness, Aldeburgh and Purdis Heath a couple of weeks ago.
I thought the same thing.
Methinks his travel business is showing ;) ;) ;D
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Niall,
like I said in an earlier post I recon you are about 25ish yards off me so would have put you at around 230 to 240 with roll. Can you get to the bunkers you ask well with a low flight and a decent back wind (wind still on the Scottish coast!!! Now really ::)) maybe, maybe not :-\
Funny, I like 12 as well and think 13 is a great hole but find the connecting walk the only big negative with the course. I would have ditched the 11th as though it is very pretty it is also one dimensional. That would have left the chance for an uphill par 3 connecting the bottom and top. Not as pretty maybe but certainly would have given the course a better flow IMO
Jon
Jon,
I actually thought an uphill par 3 at that point might have helped break up the walk, but was certainly going to add an ;D However, it could have been a homage to the blind uphill long par 3 early in the round at Gullane no 2.
Cheers,
James
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Sean I'm happy to admire from a distance. I'll be at Pebble Beach in December but wouldn't dream of dropping £350 for a round.
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Beautiful work, Sean. Thanks.
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Sean I'm happy to admire from a distance. I'll be at Pebble Beach in December but wouldn't dream of dropping £350 for a round.
Chappers
That is fair enough and I certainly see your PoV.
Jon - thank you.
Ciao
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Let me be clear, Castle Stuart is a masterpiece and should be mentioned in the same sentence with the best GB&I has to offer. Yes, the course loses its way a bit on the back nine, but that has as much to do with the high standard set by the front nine as anything else. The location is postcard perfect and the architecture of the clubhouse only enhances the setting. The location a scant few miles from Inverness Airport, commodious house and soon to be available lodges makes it very easy choice to include Castle Stuart in northern Scotland itinerary. Let us hope the new Palmer 18 (which I think Parsinen will have two hands in the design) and planned various lodgings don't spoil the scenery or vibe of this most extraordinary course. 1*
Ciao
Sean, thanks, a terrific tour as always.
I am amazed that an exact mirror image of the routing over both 9's was the final choice. As the front nine is more exposed on the peninsula, is it the wind that adds to the attraction of the F9 over the B9? Or is it just the quality of the holes and attention to detail (and less earth moving). If that is also the case, do you think there may have been discussions to swap the nine's?
Would you have preferred to have commenced your round on the 10th instead of the 1st?
In my experience, the less practiced and finely tuned the golfer, the more they usually 'hit the wall' around holes 13 & 14, (ruining what may have been up that point a good scoring round), so for the steep climb at CS to occur at around that point further increases the level of angst for a climb at that point. Whereas as that kind of angst in a routing at hole 3 is perhaps easily forgotten, as it only gets better from there?
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Brett
It is the topography which makes each 9 very different. For me, the front 9 is more attractive because of more holes near water and I think a better mix of holes. I can fully understand the finish as it is now with the majestic 18th welcoming golfers to the house, but I take your point that getting climbing out of the way early is better. The 12th and the harsh walk to the next tee are a hiccup which from the sounds of things was hard to avoid given the property, the terrific 11th hole and the concept of 36 holes. I spose if only 18 was on the cards the archie may never have built 10 or 11.
No course that I know of is seemingly perfect with the routing, the walk and rhythm of holes. I guess it just comes down to where and how does oe make the sacrifices. That said, Castle Stuart is excellent despite the hiccup. I didn't know much about the course so I was taken aback by the sudden unusually uphill 12th and long walk. It seems to be a issue which is glided over by many.
Ciao
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Brett
It is the topography which makes each 9 very different. For me, the front 9 is more attractive because of more holes near water and I think a better mix of holes. I can fully understand the finish as it is now with the majestic 18th welcoming golfers to the house, but I take your point that getting climbing out of the way early is better. The 12th and the harsh walk to the next tee are a hiccup which from the sounds of things was hard to avoid given the property, the terrific 11th hole and the concept of 36 holes. I spose if only 18 was on the cards the archie may never have built 10 or 11.
No course that I know of is seemingly perfect with the routing, the walk and rhythm of holes. I guess it just comes down to where and how does oe make the sacrifices. That said, Castle Stuart is excellent despite the hiccup. I didn't know much about the course so I was taken aback by the sudden unusually uphill 12th and long walk. It seems to be a issue which is glided over by many.
Ciao
Sean,
I actually enjoyed the 12th as it gave a significant elevation change through the hole, something that is not common on the course. It was different and therefore OK by me. Perhaps you are right that the course loses momentum a little between 12 and 17 but if so, it is very minor as I also thought 13 and 14 were good holes and 17 was a fine tough finishing three. I think it is nit picking to say that it is a weaker stretch in the totality of the overall course / experience.
You question whether the architect would have gone down 10 and 11 if the 36 hole plan wasn't on the table. Without knowing for sure, I can be pretty certain that nothing would have changed in that regard if only 18 holes were to be built.... Before they secured new land around the coast for the Palmer course, the second 18 was all going to be based inland of the current course. I certainly would have maximised the lower shelf by the water in any routing and personally I think they dealt with it excellently. I can live with that walk between 12 & 13 for sure. The original second course was on far less appetising land.
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Ally
Its really the 12-15 stretch which doesn't set well with me. Sure, 12 is okay (I don't really like it though) and 13 is good if perhaps a bit too busy. I really dislike the centreline bunker on 14. It looks out of sorts...other than that the hole is good. When I saw the fallaway right of the green I immediately thought it would be cool if that was carried up the fairway to incorporate the bunker...a sort of upper and lower fairway. 15 didn't tickle my fancy because its quite similar to 7. The final three holes are good though.
Ciao
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I think Sean has Castle Stuart bang on and Masterpiece is an apt description.
I find it a difficult call with Kingsbarns - both are such great fun. What really shone through for me at CS was the attention to detail, they'd clearly agonised over every little aspect. I also think it is a genius routing.
I do believe if they were 150 years old, both would get 9's.
Ryan
As a matter of interest what makes you think it is a genius routing ?
Niall
I tell you what is genius... the beverage station half-way up the climb from 12 to 13 (I assume it's still there). Definitely one of golf's tough walks.
I listened to the Cookie Jar podcast with G Hanse talking about Castle Stuart. He claimed the 12 to 13 walk is easier than Dornoch's 6 to 7 walk. I immediately found this hard to believe. Is it true?
Ciao
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New Castle Stuart video hear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUbaPbdmHB4
My guess is the walk from 12 to 13 at Castle Stuart is short & steeper than the walk from 6 to 7 at Dornoch.
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My perception is the Castle Stuart climb is significantly steeper than RD. Also going by Google Earth the distance on plan is nearly 50% greater at CS than RD. Add in also that the climb at CS is after playing an uphill par 5 whereas at RD it is after playing a par 3 with a short climb to the green. There seems no question that the transition at CS is more taxing.
Niall
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I dont think this is even a contest. Castle Stuart 12 to 13 is longer and steeper than 6 to 7 at Royal Dornoch. Why else would they have refreshments half way up if they didnt recognise it was a tough uphill transition?
Cheers,
James
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Thanks all. I thought the Hanse claim was wildly erroneous.
Merry Christmas