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BCowan

Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2014, 10:22:12 AM »
'' But this is the type of course that gets FAR more credit than it deserves on GCA.   For comparisons sake, just look at the Arrowtown NZ thread.  Routed over similar terrain and you can see so much more variety and uniqueness there.''

  Similar terrain? Arrowtown sits in the valley of Mountains...  It would be funny for if Gil Hanse said this was his favorite course, I am sure others would share similar opinions.  These courses don't get enough GCA spotlight...

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 10:23:03 AM »
One thing you see a lot of on more modest courses that I don't think there is enough of on "championship" courses is lay of the land greens that are not raised up and have lots of tilt.
 
Goat hill appears rock hard from those pics. A good firm surface and fun greens go along way. Looks like a fun place to have a knock. 

Brian nailed it
One play around the Goat and you'll question my sanity.
Two plays and you'll question your own.
After that the lightbulb wiill go off and you'll wonder why on on earth there's so much irrelevant crap on the vast majority of courses in the world.
and you'll begin to see the architectural merit of the course, where angles matter, and 20 foot putts have 10 feet of break
At first glance you think small scale-par 33 2500 yards
Yet in 18 holes I will hit 10 drivers, at least four 5 woods or long irons, at least 6 full mid irons, and an endless variety of pitch and run shorter shots ranging from wedges to 7 irons to putters.
a shorter hitter will hit a lot more full shots.

5 under for 9 is the course record.
In over 300+ rounds there mostly with pros, lowest I've shot or seen is 3 under. One guy had it 6 under through 8 and tripled 9

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2014, 10:23:19 AM »
BCowan...I trust that you have been to Shelter Island and played Goat Hill...correct?
New for '23:  Cheraw SP, Grandfather, Clyne, Tenby, Pennard, Langland Bay, Southerndown, Pyle & Kenfig, Royal Porthcawl, Ashburnham, Rolls of Monmouth, Old Barnwell...
New for '24: Monifieth (2), Montrose (2), Panmure, Carnoustie (3), Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin...

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2014, 10:24:40 AM »
Reminded me of Painswick. I can see why someone could love or hate it. I love the look but I suspect that a better golfer would think landing balls 40 yards short and relying on a wing and a prayer is shite.

Like # 12 at Painswick?   ;D

I love that 9th green, benched into the hill below that lovely clubhouse like a Harry Colt special.  

Mike Sweeney, I took my wife to Painswick the year after the Buda event.  She loved it!

BCowan

Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2014, 10:26:29 AM »
Brian

    Nope, it is on my bucket list!

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2014, 10:27:27 AM »
Brian

    Nope, it is on my bucket list!

Why?  Besides the company and the chance to drink a lot of beer, why would you go out of your way to play this place?  I totally understand if you live in the area and have young kids who want to learn to play golf.  But would you really go out of your way to play Goat Hill????

BCowan

Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2014, 10:31:37 AM »
Brian

    Nope, it is on my bucket list!

Why?  Besides the company and the chance to drink a lot of beer, why would you go out of your way to play this place?  I totally understand if you live in the area and have young kids who want to learn to play golf.  But would you really go out of your way to play Goat Hill????

Yes, I can drink beer anywhere.  It is totally what I have been missing and yearning to play in the US.  I can see why the UK folks get it.  It encompasses everything we talk about on GCA ''Minimalism'' and ''F&F''.... 


BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2014, 10:33:47 AM »
Brian

    Nope, it is on my bucket list!

Why?  Besides the company and the chance to drink a lot of beer, why would you go out of your way to play this place?  I totally understand if you live in the area and have young kids who want to learn to play golf.  But would you really go out of your way to play Goat Hill????

Yes, I can drink beer anywhere.  It is totally what I have been missing and yearning to play in the US.  I can see why the UK folks get it.  It encompasses everything we talk about on GCA ''Minimalism'' and ''F&F''.... 

I'll give you this--it is VERY much minimalist.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2014, 10:36:03 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I am glad to see the course profiled and think all courses have their place.  I grew up playing on a course just like this, no irrigation, tiny, tilted, circle greens.  Slopes everywhere and I could buy a season membership for $100.  It's great for beginners and seniors and everyone in between.

My issue comes with giving these places far more credit than they deserve.  They aren't great architecture.  They are good examples of someone wanting to play golf so throwing down greens and tees in straight lines.  I could pick hundreds of courses just like this.  That's what makes them great, is that they welcome all with open arms and don't try to pretend what they aren't.  So let's not try to make them something they aren't on GCA.

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2014, 10:41:05 AM »
Yes, I can drink beer anywhere.  It is totally what I have been missing and yearning to play in the US.  I can see why the UK folks get it.  It encompasses everything we talk about on GCA ''Minimalism'' and ''F&F''.... 

I was waiting for someone (particularly someone that has never played here) to say that some of us just don't get it Classic gca geek (different from nerd) move.  Please don't tell me (or anyone else) what I do or do not get until you have at least stepped foot on the grounds.
New for '23:  Cheraw SP, Grandfather, Clyne, Tenby, Pennard, Langland Bay, Southerndown, Pyle & Kenfig, Royal Porthcawl, Ashburnham, Rolls of Monmouth, Old Barnwell...
New for '24: Monifieth (2), Montrose (2), Panmure, Carnoustie (3), Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin...

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2014, 10:44:41 AM »
Brian

    Nope, it is on my bucket list!

Why?  Besides the company and the chance to drink a lot of beer, why would you go out of your way to play this place?  I totally understand if you live in the area and have young kids who want to learn to play golf.  But would you really go out of your way to play Goat Hill????

Yes, I can drink beer anywhere.  It is totally what I have been missing and yearning to play in the US.  I can see why the UK folks get it.  It encompasses everything we talk about on GCA ''Minimalism'' and ''F&F''.... 

I'll give you this--it is VERY much minimalist.

What's the most interesting is that # 9, while being a tough,GOOD  hole with a beautiful clubhouse background, is easily the hole with the LEAST architectural interest.
There re many holes on this course, that by themselves could easily fit into any of the top courses of the Hamptons..

But, in the 1980's NGLA wasn't in the Top 100, so I understand it takes a while for some things to catch on. ;) ;D

Thank God Tom Doak didn't discover this or the course would be cluttered with Mackenzie bags ;) ;) ;D ;D

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2014, 10:46:02 AM »
I really have to salute Brian and Josh for continuing their battle against an apparent majority of supporter for Goat Hill Escapade and Golf Club (cabins coming soon.)

Goat Hill and its ilk are the Route 66, the Gaffney Peach, of golf course trips. I too, would drive past NGLA, Shinnecock, even Southampton and The Bridge, cross to Shelter Island and play Goat Hill. I wouldn't reject an invite to those four, mind you, but I will go anywhere within my budget, if someone on this site tells me that I need to see and play this course.

I met up with Tim Martin at Copake CC in eastern New York. Had never met the guy, but like how he wrote on GCA. Before we stepped out of the pro shop to the first tee deck, we were bros, connected, the whole deal. If Copake had been a sh!thole, we would have laughed all the way around, invented shots and made plans for the next round. Since it wasn't, we gushed about the Emmet layout and the Fine/Witter restoration and made plans for the next round.

It's in the ground. It's not for everybody. It's there for you if you tilt your mind and spirit enough.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

BCowan

Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2014, 10:46:37 AM »
''I've spent a good amount of time on Shelter Island, and have been to Goat Hill several times.  In many ways, it provides so much of what is great about golf.  To say it is quaint is an understatement.  Traveling to Shelter Island always felt like going back in time, in a good way.  Goat Hill, along with Tuck Shop (ice cream) and The Chequit Inn (bar, restaurant, meeting place), among others, are wonderful places at the core of Shelter Island.  Additionally, as is often said here, special places are really made that way largely as a result of the people (employees, customers, owners, members...), and nowhere is that more the case than throughout Shelter Island.

Bringing it back to gca, Goat Hill certainly has its share of interesting and fun shots.  The terrain is interesting and quirk is abundant.  It is plenty playable, which combined with the friendly environment, make it a nice place for beginners (kids, especially) to get out on the course with little to no pressure.  For players of all levels, it is a nice place for an evening round with buddies over a few beers.  Beyond the uber-desirable firm & fast, the conditions are terrible (plain and simple), but that really doesnít matter.  Nobody goes to Goat Hill for perfect grass or fast greens.''

   I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''.  Nice try Brian.  One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something.  Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.  

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2014, 10:54:06 AM »
''I've spent a good amount of time on Shelter Island, and have been to Goat Hill several times.  In many ways, it provides so much of what is great about golf.  To say it is quaint is an understatement.  Traveling to Shelter Island always felt like going back in time, in a good way.  Goat Hill, along with Tuck Shop (ice cream) and The Chequit Inn (bar, restaurant, meeting place), among others, are wonderful places at the core of Shelter Island.  Additionally, as is often said here, special places are really made that way largely as a result of the people (employees, customers, owners, members...), and nowhere is that more the case than throughout Shelter Island.

Bringing it back to gca, Goat Hill certainly has its share of interesting and fun shots.  The terrain is interesting and quirk is abundant.  It is plenty playable, which combined with the friendly environment, make it a nice place for beginners (kids, especially) to get out on the course with little to no pressure.  For players of all levels, it is a nice place for an evening round with buddies over a few beers.  Beyond the uber-desirable firm & fast, the conditions are terrible (plain and simple), but that really doesnít matter.  Nobody goes to Goat Hill for perfect grass or fast greens.''

   I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''.  Nice try Brian.  One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something.  Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.  

You are off base here, BCowan.  It's just that I have read enough of your 600+ posts (plus the 200 or so that have been deleted) to know that most of them are rambling and incoherent, and those that I can decipher call upon the same handful of tired, unsubstantiated arguments.  So, in your case only, I take the "have you played it or at least seen it" card.  In the case of others on this site (even a few posting on this thread), I know enough of their wit and wisdom to take their opinion (without having played or been to the course) far more seriously.
New for '23:  Cheraw SP, Grandfather, Clyne, Tenby, Pennard, Langland Bay, Southerndown, Pyle & Kenfig, Royal Porthcawl, Ashburnham, Rolls of Monmouth, Old Barnwell...
New for '24: Monifieth (2), Montrose (2), Panmure, Carnoustie (3), Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin...

BCowan

Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2014, 10:58:16 AM »
''I've spent a good amount of time on Shelter Island, and have been to Goat Hill several times.  In many ways, it provides so much of what is great about golf.  To say it is quaint is an understatement.  Traveling to Shelter Island always felt like going back in time, in a good way.  Goat Hill, along with Tuck Shop (ice cream) and The Chequit Inn (bar, restaurant, meeting place), among others, are wonderful places at the core of Shelter Island.  Additionally, as is often said here, special places are really made that way largely as a result of the people (employees, customers, owners, members...), and nowhere is that more the case than throughout Shelter Island.

Bringing it back to gca, Goat Hill certainly has its share of interesting and fun shots.  The terrain is interesting and quirk is abundant.  It is plenty playable, which combined with the friendly environment, make it a nice place for beginners (kids, especially) to get out on the course with little to no pressure.  For players of all levels, it is a nice place for an evening round with buddies over a few beers.  Beyond the uber-desirable firm & fast, the conditions are terrible (plain and simple), but that really doesnít matter.  Nobody goes to Goat Hill for perfect grass or fast greens.''

   I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''.  Nice try Brian.  One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something.  Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response. 

You are off base here, BCowan.  It's just that I have read enough of your 600+ posts (plus the 200 or so that have been deleted) to know that most of them are rambling and incoherent, and those that I can decipher call upon the same handful of tired, unsubstantiated arguments.  So, in your case only, I take the "have you played it or at least seen it" card.  In the case of others on this site (even a few posting on this thread), I know enough of their wit and wisdom to take their opinion (without having played or been to the course) far more seriously.
Talk about someone way off base.  How about you stop twisting and taking things out of context.  Good for you that you played the course.  Feel free not to read my posts. 

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2014, 11:03:30 AM »
What I don't understand is that some folks would flock to this place because it's minimalist, F&F, interesting ground, all that's good about golf, yadda yadda yadda.  But at the same time, they bitch about places like Torrey Pines as being bland, boring, etc.

For the record, I've played neither Goat Hill nor Torrey Pines.  But like Josh, I grew up on a course very much like Goat Hill.  It was hardpan, clover and had small, circular greens with lots of slope that rolled about 4 on the stimp.  It was cheap to play and I played it thousands of times growing up.  it was fun, but it was certainly not what anyone would call "interesting."

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2014, 11:09:15 AM »
I think someone needs to point out that the "have you played it" argument works both ways, whether you're praising or deriding the place.

I guess is comes down to tastes, and no one should be faulted for their own personal preferences, whether based on first impressions or otherwise.  I happen to like the look of Goat Hill, and although I'm not booking a flight to get out to Long Island or adding it to the top ten of my own personal bucket list, its a course I'd like to play at some point.

In a way, it reminds me of the courses included in Mike Sweeney and Mike Moore's Maine Island Golf Tour:  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25025.0.html

With all this talk of nerds (who would love it for being an undisturbed pre-1900 course), geeks (angles, fast & firm, etc.) and the enlightened (golf doesn't need to cost a $100), I think the bucket of beer crew would love it the most.  Sounds like it fits every aspect of the big world theory, except for maybe the beltnotchers, as I don't think Goat Hill is going to show up on any check box lists any time soon.



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2014, 11:15:44 AM »
I hate to say it but I think there is a high probability that if Jeff had sent the photos to someone other than Ben to start a thread on Goat Hill, some of the negative posts wouldn't show up in the thread. The way that some make things personal on here is pretty disappointing, but that's really old hat isn't it?

On topic, I haven't met Jeff, but I like his taste in golf courses. Matter of fact, on the morning I was driving out to play Sebonack last summer, I had the idea in my head that I would stop and play Goat Hill. Keith O'Halloran advised me not to attempt it only because the ferry schedule might not be in my favor and we didn't want to risk being late for our afternoon round. I still think I could've made it. ;)

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2014, 11:22:37 AM »
I hate to say it but I think there is a high probability that if Jeff had sent the photos to someone other than Ben to start a thread on Goat Hill, some of the negative posts wouldn't show up in the thread. The way that some make things personal on here is pretty disappointing, but that's really old hat isn't it?

I don't think the negative comments about the course are intended to be personal, at least I hope not.  There is a place for disagreement and debate, or at least there should be.  Too often disagreement is taken to be personal in nature, when it's not. 

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2014, 11:23:27 AM »
Way to throw Keith under the ferry, Smith. So typical of your posts...

Also, way to drop the "When I played Sebonack, Pookie" on us unfortunate sorts. I mean, I only got to walk it for five days at the Open last June.
=============
If you, dear reader, don't know, I've never met Smith and yet for some reason, he puts up with me.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2014, 11:25:08 AM »
It would be funny for if Gil Hanse said this was his favorite course, I am sure others would share similar opinions.

Umm, maybe. But it seems important to note that it's NOT Gil Hanse's favorite course. Gil Hanse didn't come into esteem by having poor taste. I would suggest it's more likely that if Gil Hanse's favorite courses were places like Goat Hill, no one would know who Gil Hanse was.

There's a middle ground here. I'd happily play Goat Hill if I was on the island and wanted to be outside on a nice evening. I wouldn't travel to Shetter Island just to play it though. And honestly Ben, neither would you. I'll wager a six-pack of your favorite "craft" on that. Put your money where your beer is and buy a plane ticket, or stop throwing around the term "bucket list" when you really mean "list of courses I like looking at pictures of online." It's offensive to people with terminal illness.

There are THOUSANDS of courses like this around the country. Rock Creek in DC. Bogie (sic) Busters at Coal Ridge in Georgetown, KY. Dannebrog Golf Club. Spring Valley in Wisconsin. Anthony Gray's White Day. Tons of others. They are discussed appropriately. I enjoy looking at photos of them and learning more about them, but it's not about the course. It's about the soul of the game they represent. If you believe that what Goat Hill represents is significant, you're right on the money. But if you believe the course itself is worthy of even 10% of the architectural discussion devoted to its neighbors at Shinnecock and NGLA, then you're even more clueless than I've given you credit for, and I'm a jackass who loves to exaggerate so that's really saying something.
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2014, 11:27:04 AM »
  I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''.  Nice try Brian.  One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something.  Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.  

Ben, I must remind you that back in September I asked you, in person, about your thoughts on the 17th at St. Andrews. At least ten members of this forum were in the room. You stated "I can't comment on it. I don't know what I would think of it, because I haven't seen it in person."
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2014, 11:28:01 AM »
Hoover

    That is totally cool that you aren't impressed with GH.  I am not trying to put you down for not liking the course.  I just hate to see people say these courses are put up on GCA way too much for I totally disagree.  

BCowan

Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2014, 11:32:21 AM »
  I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''.  Nice try Brian.  One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something.  Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.  

Ben, I must remind you that back in September I asked you, in person, about your thoughts on the 17th at St. Andrews. At least ten members of this forum were in the room. You stated "I can't comment on it. I don't know what I would think of it, because I haven't seen it in person."

I don't recall the conversation and the way in which you are framing it, not questioning your honesty  I'll tell you right now #17 at TOC seems like a very interesting hole and is talked about across the world.  It is interesting to have learned that it used to be a par 5.  Why don't you bring up the conversation, ''the whole'' conversation''

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2014, 11:35:12 AM »
Hoover

    That is totally cool that you aren't impressed with GH.  I am not trying to put you down for not liking the course.  I just hate to see people say these courses are put up on GCA way too much for I totally disagree.  

My issue with this course is not that you put up a photo tour (I am in favor of more photo tours because I love to see the photos of courses I haven't or probably will never play).  I just think there's room to debate whether certain courses are worthy of attention, and that is certainly a subjective discussion because what is worthy of my attention may not be worthy of another's attention.

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