Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: BCowan on March 11, 2014, 10:15:31 PM
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photos by Jeff Warne Shelter Island, NY
Clubhouse
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/32/8pow.jpg)
#1 Tee
(http://imageshack.com/a/img37/6546/3s0b.jpg)
#1 Green
(http://imageshack.com/a/img69/1769/gaxl.jpg)
#2 Tee
(http://imageshack.com/a/img834/4578/1xc3.jpg)
#2 Green
(http://imageshack.com/a/img268/8664/lp7j.jpg)
#3 Tee
(http://imageshack.com/a/img845/989/gei0.jpg)
#3 Green
(http://imageshack.com/a/img839/2898/1h4b.jpg)
#4
(http://imageshack.com/a/img18/1808/dhel.jpg)
#5 Tee
(http://imageshack.com/a/img89/2232/jxve.jpg)
#5 Green
(http://imageshack.com/a/img198/6273/2i45.jpg)
#6 Tee
(http://imageshack.com/a/img163/9830/v366.jpg)
#6 Green
(http://imageshack.com/a/img43/3294/ohya.jpg)
#7 Tee
(http://imageshack.com/a/img21/161/4jgf.jpg)
#7 Green
(http://imageshack.com/a/img69/6246/x5hc.jpg)
#8
(http://imageshack.com/a/img543/5070/ehin.jpg)
#8 Green
(http://imageshack.com/a/img404/3960/hgvk.jpg)
#9 Tee
(http://imageshack.com/a/img855/9162/smj5.jpg)
#9 Green
(http://imageshack.com/a/img854/191/a8k9.jpg)
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Am I missing something here? Why would I want to play this place, because after seeing these photos, I'd be sure to steer clear. Not being a wise ass. I just don't see anything but a rather bland, and frankly boring, track (with the exception of #9).
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Where is it?
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Shelter Island, NY
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Where is it?
Shelter Island, NY
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Am I missing something here? Why would I want to play this place, because after seeing these photos, I'd be sure to steer clear. Not being a wise ass. I just don't see anything but a rather bland, and frankly boring, track (with the exception of #9).
The Goat is by invitation only ;), so no worries.
I can assure you, no one has ever called it boring. ;D ;D ;D
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Am I missing something here? Why would I want to play this place, because after seeing these photos, I'd be sure to steer clear. Not being a wise ass. I just don't see anything but a rather bland, and frankly boring, track (with the exception of #9).
The Goat is by invitation only ;), so no worries.
I can assure you, no one has ever called it boring. ;D ;D ;D
Jeff, it was not my intent to be insulting or snarky. I honestly just don't see what is special about this place, but as I admitted, I could be missing something here. Does the club serve great whiskey or beer or something?
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Brian
Jeff drinks Budweiser.
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Brian
Jeff drinks Budweiser.
Okay, so I'm definitely missing something. Perhaps I'm just not enlightened enough to appreciate this.
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photos by Jeff Warne Shelter Island, NY
The single most important thing to remember about the Goat is that the greens are severely tilted and run about 5,and the fairways are alarmingly firm but sometimes compounded by the invasion of crabgrass which, like the country song, "if it weren't for crabgrass, I'd have no grass at all"
Course plays best with no grass and can be fiery.
there are NO boring approaches at The Goat
Clubhouse
As good as clubhouses get.The course is often empty, but the bar never is
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/32/8pow.jpg)
#1 Tee-350 yards
Have the world left and green best approached from left, however,challenge the OB right on the Tiger line over the hill on the line of that ugly spruce about 200 out on the right and it can be driven under the right conditions.
a decent line is towards the tree and bench left but left of that works too for those swings not yet properly lubricated ;). the actual green is in front of that tallest evergreen in the background, but the ground works hard right to left
(http://imageshack.com/a/img37/6546/3s0b.jpg)
#1 Green
The properly played pitch land 10-40 yards short and right
(http://imageshack.com/a/img69/1769/gaxl.jpg)
#2 Tee 400 Yards
One of the tougher tee shots in golf. Fairway slopes left to right, OB right, ground very firm and fast. Best shot a draw to hold fairway, though cagey players play down 3 fairway occasionally ;D
(http://imageshack.com/a/img834/4578/1xc3.jpg)
#2 Green from behind
From 150 out, besy shot is a punch 8-9 iron that carries 60-80 yards down the left side.
Newbies ALWAYs hit it over here due to extreme tilt away from approach angle.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img268/8664/lp7j.jpg)
#3 Tee-310 yards
Great opportunity to bomb it.
tee shot down left side preferred-can be driven under right circumstances
(http://imageshack.com/a/img845/989/gei0.jpg)
#3 Green
svere right to left tilt except narrow right and back shelf which are both tilted the other way severely.
All areas are pinned
(http://imageshack.com/a/img839/2898/1h4b.jpg)
#4 226 yards par 4!
blind tee shot over marker flag.
Broken ground for about 180, then severly downhill to severely sloped green away from player.
Greenie hole for closest in 2 ;)
Most severely tilted green at The Goat-didn't have picture ::)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img18/1808/dhel.jpg)
#5 Tee 156 yards
photo doesn't do hole justice
left shelf, then severely tilted left to right slope.
miss left and suoer difficult chip.
Miss short or left and can easily roll long out of bounds.
veterans land chipped low shortiron 20-30 yards short and left and let funnel on.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img89/2232/jxve.jpg)
#5 Green from #3 tee (right of 5)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img198/6273/2i45.jpg)
#6 Tee 180 ectra tall flagstick
Land it short left around 155. or fly to green.
Only tame green on course
(http://imageshack.com/a/img163/9830/v366.jpg)
#6 Green
(http://imageshack.com/a/img43/3294/ohya.jpg)
#7 Tee 350 yards
Shared fairway with #8. hard ground and left to right fway slope dictate playing left towards #8, leaving very poor angle to green and slope running hard left to right and away from player.
newbies always hit it over and OB here
(http://imageshack.com/a/img21/161/4jgf.jpg)
#7 Green from 70 yards short and left
must land 30 yards short and left
(http://imageshack.com/a/img69/6246/x5hc.jpg)
#8 308 yards
"Skyline tee shot" must launch straight up to shared fairway with #7. Spine must be straddled perfectly to drive green.
Balls 5 feet left of spine can roll left into woods on 7, and balls right of spine stay right and don't reach green, but safer.
Pin position dictates best side of "fairway" to be on.
Can drive over green into woods in firm or downwind conditions.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img543/5070/ehin.jpg)
#8 Green from behind
Ball has to bounced or rolled 30-60 yards short of green. fascinating shot to watch develop,as are most approaches at the Goat.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img404/3960/hgvk.jpg)
#9 Tee 205 straight uphill
just launch something straight up and high --5 iron to 3 wood depending on conditions.
OB tight right, firm ground punishes miss left as well
(http://imageshack.com/a/img855/9162/smj5.jpg)
#9 Green
After putting out on 9, refortify ;) ;D and use some of that knowledge you gained on first of many 9's you will play.
And remember, the goat is all about angles, running shots, tilt, judgement (or lack of ;)) and fun.
greens run about 5 yet downhill putts are lightning due to slope, and uphill putts are welll..reallly slow--which is the beauty of it.
Tremendous breaks on putts if unlucky enough to be pin high due to tilt.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img854/191/a8k9.jpg)
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Georgia caddie. ;)
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Georgia caddie. ;)
Do you mean the personal beverage carts? ;) ;D ;D
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Georgia caddie. ;)
Do you mean the personal beverage carts? ;) ;D ;D
(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs23/i/2007/332/9/a/thumb_up_emoticon_by_alchsh.png)
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Am I missing something here? Why would I want to play this place, because after seeing these photos, I'd be sure to steer clear. Not being a wise ass. I just don't see anything but a rather bland, and frankly boring, track (with the exception of #9).
Brian,
Just curious.
Forget my later descriptions.
From the pictures first posted, without any yardages, how on earth could you describe this golf course as bland and boring?
All pictures of the 9 nine holes depict wildly heaving terrain, with mostly blind shots, and apparent brownish firm and fast conditions.
Admittedly, the pictures do not show the extreme amount of tilt on those greens, but you can certainly see movement around the greens in the pictures.
Not asking for an apology-I have no dog in this fight-and there are a variety of reasons why this course isn't many people's cup of tea(usually condition),
I just wonder what specifically you find boring or bland in the photos.
I mean if you start at # 1, you're elevated in front of an intimate clubhouse to a heaving tilted fairway, overlooking the Peconic bay-and it gets better from there.
#2 is as good as any par 4 in The Hamptons-difficult tee shot-awesome second shot
#3 is a classic driveable par 4 where position to approach is paramount due to tilt.
#4 is 226 blind to a sevely tilted ,semibowled green running away from the player (not pictured so you get a pass there)
I happen to think it's probably quite difficult to see greatness in the pictures without the descriptions, but I also think it's very hard to see the terrain as boring or bland.
perhaps we need to bring in my buddy Trump ;D ;D Maybe a large wind fountain in the peconic
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Jeff, maybe it was simply seeing the photos without your descriptions, and the photos not doing it justice, that struck a nerve for me. I'm also not going to lie that the conditions didn't scream great course, at least to me. I'm normally not a stickler for conditions, but a Trump-esque fountain, or even a bunker to shoot at ( ::)), might be just the ticket here.
But you're right, the land itself isn't boring upon further reflection.
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Brian,
not all good golf is about mind blowing GCA. I like the look of the course and the conditioning which fits the landscape. F&F and lots slope to contend with. What more can you want.
Nice tour Jeff/Ben
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Reminded me of Painswick. I can see why someone could love or hate it. I love the look but I suspect that a better golfer would think landing balls 40 yards short and relying on a wing and a prayer is shite.
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This is a wonderful small scale course, as I have not seen many of in the US; In fact most courses like this can be found only on Sean Arble threads. Wonderful terrain, small greens, few bunkers, no manicure maintenance and endless opportunities to bump and run balls onto the green. A time machine experience surely. Old School golf!
The only eyesore is the buggy. True, I like to walk golf courses, but I am not an anti-ride crusader. However riding on this 9-holer? That spoils the time machine effect for me. I even saw parts of concrete cart paths on the course, please tell me these do not run along all of the holes on this classic little golf course.
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A Marmite course? Love it or hate it? Me, I'd like to give it a go but I'm not adverse to quirk and prefer firm, fast, bouncey and eccentric golf. I could see how the course could seriously annoy some folk though. A good place for youngsters to learn to play I imagine. And I love the clubhouse. What a wonderful looking building.
Well done Ben/Jeff for posting and John for his related photo thread too - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55788.0.html
I'd like to see other threads about courses like this whether they be in the US or elsewhere around the globe.
atb
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I've spent time going round Jeff's "other" course with him and we discussed Goat Hills a good bit. These photos are precisely what I'd envisioned, thanks to his enthusiastic narrative.
I thought Brian Hoover's initial comment was sarcastic, then was thrilled to learn it wasn't. Intentional or not, he allowed a number of posters to offer reasons why that first impression was off-base. For all those who tip-toe with trepidation around a harsh call-out, don't! Fire your salvo; you may be correct or you might be just shy of enlightenment.
I love a blind tee shot. Unlike the saying "It's only blind the first time," that isn't my case. I tend to forget quickly (why I take so many photos) and need repeated re-education. In fact, sometimes I'll look at my photos and ask "how did that get in there? that's not that hole!" when in fact, it is.
Goat Hills would give me the same thrill I had going round Pine Crest (see the current Pine Crest thread here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57926.0.html). It seems to be pure and elementary golf, the type that is accessible in a region (eastern Long Island) with very expensive and exclusive private clubs, that just might turn a kid or twenty on to golf. Precisely what we and our sport/game need.
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My initial reaction dealt with the condition of the course. Then I had to consider how hard the ground was and then ponder where the ball must land in order to stop where it should. Suddenly I felt that the average golf shot by the average golfer was not going to get it done. The first play there must be brutal.
I like it.
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As a lover of 9 hole courses, and for my fancy friends in The Hamptons and elsewhere, Jeff is a little too enthusiastic about Shelter Island Country Club aka Goat Hill. The rankings for 9 hole public courses on the East End of Long Island are:
1. Poxabogue - Hull did the course, and with a driving range, Dead Guy pedigree and a restaurant popular with Hipsters, it strikes a nice balance in the overdone Hamptons.
2. Sag Harbor Golf Course - Water views and cheap beer, made famous in a published book by a Harvard golfer who used it as his home course to play "professionally". I forget the book title, anyone?
3. SICC - well covered above, but also home to the after-party for the well-known Shelter Island 10K in June.
If Bridgehampton and Quoque were public, Goat Hill would not make Top 5 !
Let's be honest, how many have re-played Painswick since the GCA outing?
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I thought Brian Hoover's initial comment was sarcastic, then was thrilled to learn it wasn't. Intentional or not, he allowed a number of posters to offer reasons why that first impression was off-base. For all those who tip-toe with trepidation around a harsh call-out, don't! Fire your salvo; you may be correct or you might be just shy of enlightenment.
I stand by my original assertion that I have no interest in playing this place. Sure, it might be on an interesting piece of land, but then I would ask why let a good piece of land go to waste with a ho-hum track?
@Jon Wigget, I know that not all golf is about mind-blowing GCA. I love F&F and contours and great land, etc. But I would rather experience those features on a course that interests me, and this does not do that, in my humble opinion.
I should just stop now because I can't win this argument...
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I've spent a good amount of time on Shelter Island, and have been to Goat Hill several times. In many ways, it provides so much of what is great about golf. To say it is quaint is an understatement. Traveling to Shelter Island always felt like going back in time, in a good way. Goat Hill, along with Tuck Shop (ice cream) and The Chequit Inn (bar, restaurant, meeting place), among others, are wonderful places at the core of Shelter Island. Additionally, as is often said here, special places are really made that way largely as a result of the people (employees, customers, owners, members...), and nowhere is that more the case than throughout Shelter Island.
Bringing it back to gca, Goat Hill certainly has its share of interesting and fun shots. The terrain is interesting and quirk is abundant. It is plenty playable, which combined with the friendly environment, make it a nice place for beginners (kids, especially) to get out on the course with little to no pressure. For players of all levels, it is a nice place for an evening round with buddies over a few beers. Beyond the uber-desirable firm & fast, the conditions are terrible (plain and simple), but that really doesn’t matter. Nobody goes to Goat Hill for perfect grass or fast greens.
Brian,
not all good golf is about mind blowing GCA. I like the look of the course and the conditioning which fits the landscape. F&F and lots slope to contend with. What more can you want.
Nice tour Jeff/Ben
I agree with Jon, and I am glad to see tours of courses such as this one. Having said all of these nice things, I would not spend the time or $ on the ferry specifically to play golf at Goat Hill. It is a nice spot for so many reasons, but far from a reason alone to cross the harbor (even considering the proximity to the North Ferry). Even with the majority of courses out East being very private, there are a handful of nearby public courses (walkable and reasonably priced) to which I would direct a first time visitor ahead of this spot. In fact, I would argue this is the second best course in the US called Goat Hill (Oceanside, CA being first). Just one man’s opinion.
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I totally see what Brian Hoover is saying.
I do think the land is wild...not bland in the slightest. However, I don't see anything there that I would consider exciting GCA besides #9. It's just a collection of small greens routed up and over hills IMO. I don't see anything here that is unusual, such as greens benched into the hillside, crowned on top of hills, utilizing the valleys of the hills, etc.
I certainly appreciate the effort to put up a photo tour and am not even taking conditioning in account. Actually, I'm sure the conditioning makes it a hilarious course to play (not a chance to land balls on greens, huge bounces in fairways, etc.) and it probably is fun to go around once. But this is the type of course that gets FAR more credit than it deserves on GCA. For comparisons sake, just look at the Arrowtown NZ thread. Routed over similar terrain and you can see so much more variety and uniqueness there.
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'' But this is the type of course that gets FAR more credit than it deserves on GCA. For comparisons sake, just look at the Arrowtown NZ thread. Routed over similar terrain and you can see so much more variety and uniqueness there.''
Similar terrain? Arrowtown sits in the valley of Mountains... It would be funny for if Gil Hanse said this was his favorite course, I am sure others would share similar opinions. These courses don't get enough GCA spotlight...
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One thing you see a lot of on more modest courses that I don't think there is enough of on "championship" courses is lay of the land greens that are not raised up and have lots of tilt.
Goat hill appears rock hard from those pics. A good firm surface and fun greens go along way. Looks like a fun place to have a knock.
Brian nailed it
One play around the Goat and you'll question my sanity.
Two plays and you'll question your own.
After that the lightbulb wiill go off and you'll wonder why on on earth there's so much irrelevant crap on the vast majority of courses in the world.
and you'll begin to see the architectural merit of the course, where angles matter, and 20 foot putts have 10 feet of break
At first glance you think small scale-par 33 2500 yards
Yet in 18 holes I will hit 10 drivers, at least four 5 woods or long irons, at least 6 full mid irons, and an endless variety of pitch and run shorter shots ranging from wedges to 7 irons to putters.
a shorter hitter will hit a lot more full shots.
5 under for 9 is the course record.
In over 300+ rounds there mostly with pros, lowest I've shot or seen is 3 under. One guy had it 6 under through 8 and tripled 9
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BCowan...I trust that you have been to Shelter Island and played Goat Hill...correct?
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Reminded me of Painswick. I can see why someone could love or hate it. I love the look but I suspect that a better golfer would think landing balls 40 yards short and relying on a wing and a prayer is shite.
Like # 12 at Painswick? ;D
I love that 9th green, benched into the hill below that lovely clubhouse like a Harry Colt special.
Mike Sweeney, I took my wife to Painswick the year after the Buda event. She loved it!
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Brian
Nope, it is on my bucket list!
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Brian
Nope, it is on my bucket list!
Why? Besides the company and the chance to drink a lot of beer, why would you go out of your way to play this place? I totally understand if you live in the area and have young kids who want to learn to play golf. But would you really go out of your way to play Goat Hill????
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Brian
Nope, it is on my bucket list!
Why? Besides the company and the chance to drink a lot of beer, why would you go out of your way to play this place? I totally understand if you live in the area and have young kids who want to learn to play golf. But would you really go out of your way to play Goat Hill????
Yes, I can drink beer anywhere. It is totally what I have been missing and yearning to play in the US. I can see why the UK folks get it. It encompasses everything we talk about on GCA ''Minimalism'' and ''F&F''....
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Brian
Nope, it is on my bucket list!
Why? Besides the company and the chance to drink a lot of beer, why would you go out of your way to play this place? I totally understand if you live in the area and have young kids who want to learn to play golf. But would you really go out of your way to play Goat Hill????
Yes, I can drink beer anywhere. It is totally what I have been missing and yearning to play in the US. I can see why the UK folks get it. It encompasses everything we talk about on GCA ''Minimalism'' and ''F&F''....
I'll give you this--it is VERY much minimalist.
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Don't get me wrong, I am glad to see the course profiled and think all courses have their place. I grew up playing on a course just like this, no irrigation, tiny, tilted, circle greens. Slopes everywhere and I could buy a season membership for $100. It's great for beginners and seniors and everyone in between.
My issue comes with giving these places far more credit than they deserve. They aren't great architecture. They are good examples of someone wanting to play golf so throwing down greens and tees in straight lines. I could pick hundreds of courses just like this. That's what makes them great, is that they welcome all with open arms and don't try to pretend what they aren't. So let's not try to make them something they aren't on GCA.
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Yes, I can drink beer anywhere. It is totally what I have been missing and yearning to play in the US. I can see why the UK folks get it. It encompasses everything we talk about on GCA ''Minimalism'' and ''F&F''....
I was waiting for someone (particularly someone that has never played here) to say that some of us just don't get it. Classic gca geek (different from nerd) move. Please don't tell me (or anyone else) what I do or do not get until you have at least stepped foot on the grounds.
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Brian
Nope, it is on my bucket list!
Why? Besides the company and the chance to drink a lot of beer, why would you go out of your way to play this place? I totally understand if you live in the area and have young kids who want to learn to play golf. But would you really go out of your way to play Goat Hill????
Yes, I can drink beer anywhere. It is totally what I have been missing and yearning to play in the US. I can see why the UK folks get it. It encompasses everything we talk about on GCA ''Minimalism'' and ''F&F''....
I'll give you this--it is VERY much minimalist.
What's the most interesting is that # 9, while being a tough,GOOD hole with a beautiful clubhouse background, is easily the hole with the LEAST architectural interest.
There re many holes on this course, that by themselves could easily fit into any of the top courses of the Hamptons..
But, in the 1980's NGLA wasn't in the Top 100, so I understand it takes a while for some things to catch on. ;) ;D
Thank God Tom Doak didn't discover this or the course would be cluttered with Mackenzie bags ;) ;) ;D ;D
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I really have to salute Brian and Josh for continuing their battle against an apparent majority of supporter for Goat Hill Escapade and Golf Club (cabins coming soon.)
Goat Hill and its ilk are the Route 66, the Gaffney Peach, of golf course trips. I too, would drive past NGLA, Shinnecock, even Southampton and The Bridge, cross to Shelter Island and play Goat Hill. I wouldn't reject an invite to those four, mind you, but I will go anywhere within my budget, if someone on this site tells me that I need to see and play this course.
I met up with Tim Martin at Copake CC in eastern New York. Had never met the guy, but like how he wrote on GCA. Before we stepped out of the pro shop to the first tee deck, we were bros, connected, the whole deal. If Copake had been a sh!thole, we would have laughed all the way around, invented shots and made plans for the next round. Since it wasn't, we gushed about the Emmet layout and the Fine/Witter restoration and made plans for the next round.
It's in the ground. It's not for everybody. It's there for you if you tilt your mind and spirit enough.
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''I've spent a good amount of time on Shelter Island, and have been to Goat Hill several times. In many ways, it provides so much of what is great about golf. To say it is quaint is an understatement. Traveling to Shelter Island always felt like going back in time, in a good way. Goat Hill, along with Tuck Shop (ice cream) and The Chequit Inn (bar, restaurant, meeting place), among others, are wonderful places at the core of Shelter Island. Additionally, as is often said here, special places are really made that way largely as a result of the people (employees, customers, owners, members...), and nowhere is that more the case than throughout Shelter Island.
Bringing it back to gca, Goat Hill certainly has its share of interesting and fun shots. The terrain is interesting and quirk is abundant. It is plenty playable, which combined with the friendly environment, make it a nice place for beginners (kids, especially) to get out on the course with little to no pressure. For players of all levels, it is a nice place for an evening round with buddies over a few beers. Beyond the uber-desirable firm & fast, the conditions are terrible (plain and simple), but that really doesn’t matter. Nobody goes to Goat Hill for perfect grass or fast greens.''
I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''. Nice try Brian. One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something. Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.
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''I've spent a good amount of time on Shelter Island, and have been to Goat Hill several times. In many ways, it provides so much of what is great about golf. To say it is quaint is an understatement. Traveling to Shelter Island always felt like going back in time, in a good way. Goat Hill, along with Tuck Shop (ice cream) and The Chequit Inn (bar, restaurant, meeting place), among others, are wonderful places at the core of Shelter Island. Additionally, as is often said here, special places are really made that way largely as a result of the people (employees, customers, owners, members...), and nowhere is that more the case than throughout Shelter Island.
Bringing it back to gca, Goat Hill certainly has its share of interesting and fun shots. The terrain is interesting and quirk is abundant. It is plenty playable, which combined with the friendly environment, make it a nice place for beginners (kids, especially) to get out on the course with little to no pressure. For players of all levels, it is a nice place for an evening round with buddies over a few beers. Beyond the uber-desirable firm & fast, the conditions are terrible (plain and simple), but that really doesn’t matter. Nobody goes to Goat Hill for perfect grass or fast greens.''
I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''. Nice try Brian. One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something. Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.
You are off base here, BCowan. It's just that I have read enough of your 600+ posts (plus the 200 or so that have been deleted) to know that most of them are rambling and incoherent, and those that I can decipher call upon the same handful of tired, unsubstantiated arguments. So, in your case only, I take the "have you played it or at least seen it" card. In the case of others on this site (even a few posting on this thread), I know enough of their wit and wisdom to take their opinion (without having played or been to the course) far more seriously.
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''I've spent a good amount of time on Shelter Island, and have been to Goat Hill several times. In many ways, it provides so much of what is great about golf. To say it is quaint is an understatement. Traveling to Shelter Island always felt like going back in time, in a good way. Goat Hill, along with Tuck Shop (ice cream) and The Chequit Inn (bar, restaurant, meeting place), among others, are wonderful places at the core of Shelter Island. Additionally, as is often said here, special places are really made that way largely as a result of the people (employees, customers, owners, members...), and nowhere is that more the case than throughout Shelter Island.
Bringing it back to gca, Goat Hill certainly has its share of interesting and fun shots. The terrain is interesting and quirk is abundant. It is plenty playable, which combined with the friendly environment, make it a nice place for beginners (kids, especially) to get out on the course with little to no pressure. For players of all levels, it is a nice place for an evening round with buddies over a few beers. Beyond the uber-desirable firm & fast, the conditions are terrible (plain and simple), but that really doesn’t matter. Nobody goes to Goat Hill for perfect grass or fast greens.''
I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''. Nice try Brian. One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something. Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.
You are off base here, BCowan. It's just that I have read enough of your 600+ posts (plus the 200 or so that have been deleted) to know that most of them are rambling and incoherent, and those that I can decipher call upon the same handful of tired, unsubstantiated arguments. So, in your case only, I take the "have you played it or at least seen it" card. In the case of others on this site (even a few posting on this thread), I know enough of their wit and wisdom to take their opinion (without having played or been to the course) far more seriously.
Talk about someone way off base. How about you stop twisting and taking things out of context. Good for you that you played the course. Feel free not to read my posts.
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What I don't understand is that some folks would flock to this place because it's minimalist, F&F, interesting ground, all that's good about golf, yadda yadda yadda. But at the same time, they bitch about places like Torrey Pines as being bland, boring, etc.
For the record, I've played neither Goat Hill nor Torrey Pines. But like Josh, I grew up on a course very much like Goat Hill. It was hardpan, clover and had small, circular greens with lots of slope that rolled about 4 on the stimp. It was cheap to play and I played it thousands of times growing up. it was fun, but it was certainly not what anyone would call "interesting."
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I think someone needs to point out that the "have you played it" argument works both ways, whether you're praising or deriding the place.
I guess is comes down to tastes, and no one should be faulted for their own personal preferences, whether based on first impressions or otherwise. I happen to like the look of Goat Hill, and although I'm not booking a flight to get out to Long Island or adding it to the top ten of my own personal bucket list, its a course I'd like to play at some point.
In a way, it reminds me of the courses included in Mike Sweeney and Mike Moore's Maine Island Golf Tour:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25025.0.html
With all this talk of nerds (who would love it for being an undisturbed pre-1900 course), geeks (angles, fast & firm, etc.) and the enlightened (golf doesn't need to cost a $100), I think the bucket of beer crew would love it the most. Sounds like it fits every aspect of the big world theory, except for maybe the beltnotchers, as I don't think Goat Hill is going to show up on any check box lists any time soon.
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I hate to say it but I think there is a high probability that if Jeff had sent the photos to someone other than Ben to start a thread on Goat Hill, some of the negative posts wouldn't show up in the thread. The way that some make things personal on here is pretty disappointing, but that's really old hat isn't it?
On topic, I haven't met Jeff, but I like his taste in golf courses. Matter of fact, on the morning I was driving out to play Sebonack last summer, I had the idea in my head that I would stop and play Goat Hill. Keith O'Halloran advised me not to attempt it only because the ferry schedule might not be in my favor and we didn't want to risk being late for our afternoon round. I still think I could've made it. ;)
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I hate to say it but I think there is a high probability that if Jeff had sent the photos to someone other than Ben to start a thread on Goat Hill, some of the negative posts wouldn't show up in the thread. The way that some make things personal on here is pretty disappointing, but that's really old hat isn't it?
I don't think the negative comments about the course are intended to be personal, at least I hope not. There is a place for disagreement and debate, or at least there should be. Too often disagreement is taken to be personal in nature, when it's not.
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Way to throw Keith under the ferry, Smith. So typical of your posts...
Also, way to drop the "When I played Sebonack, Pookie" on us unfortunate sorts. I mean, I only got to walk it for five days at the Open last June.
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If you, dear reader, don't know, I've never met Smith and yet for some reason, he puts up with me.
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It would be funny for if Gil Hanse said this was his favorite course, I am sure others would share similar opinions.
Umm, maybe. But it seems important to note that it's NOT Gil Hanse's favorite course. Gil Hanse didn't come into esteem by having poor taste. I would suggest it's more likely that if Gil Hanse's favorite courses were places like Goat Hill, no one would know who Gil Hanse was.
There's a middle ground here. I'd happily play Goat Hill if I was on the island and wanted to be outside on a nice evening. I wouldn't travel to Shetter Island just to play it though. And honestly Ben, neither would you. I'll wager a six-pack of your favorite "craft" on that. Put your money where your beer is and buy a plane ticket, or stop throwing around the term "bucket list" when you really mean "list of courses I like looking at pictures of online." It's offensive to people with terminal illness.
There are THOUSANDS of courses like this around the country. Rock Creek in DC. Bogie (sic) Busters at Coal Ridge in Georgetown, KY. Dannebrog Golf Club. Spring Valley in Wisconsin. Anthony Gray's White Day. Tons of others. They are discussed appropriately. I enjoy looking at photos of them and learning more about them, but it's not about the course. It's about the soul of the game they represent. If you believe that what Goat Hill represents is significant, you're right on the money. But if you believe the course itself is worthy of even 10% of the architectural discussion devoted to its neighbors at Shinnecock and NGLA, then you're even more clueless than I've given you credit for, and I'm a jackass who loves to exaggerate so that's really saying something.
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I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''. Nice try Brian. One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something. Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.
Ben, I must remind you that back in September I asked you, in person, about your thoughts on the 17th at St. Andrews. At least ten members of this forum were in the room. You stated "I can't comment on it. I don't know what I would think of it, because I haven't seen it in person."
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Hoover
That is totally cool that you aren't impressed with GH. I am not trying to put you down for not liking the course. I just hate to see people say these courses are put up on GCA way too much for I totally disagree.
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I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''. Nice try Brian. One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something. Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.
Ben, I must remind you that back in September I asked you, in person, about your thoughts on the 17th at St. Andrews. At least ten members of this forum were in the room. You stated "I can't comment on it. I don't know what I would think of it, because I haven't seen it in person."
I don't recall the conversation and the way in which you are framing it, not questioning your honesty I'll tell you right now #17 at TOC seems like a very interesting hole and is talked about across the world. It is interesting to have learned that it used to be a par 5. Why don't you bring up the conversation, ''the whole'' conversation''
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Hoover
That is totally cool that you aren't impressed with GH. I am not trying to put you down for not liking the course. I just hate to see people say these courses are put up on GCA way too much for I totally disagree.
My issue with this course is not that you put up a photo tour (I am in favor of more photo tours because I love to see the photos of courses I haven't or probably will never play). I just think there's room to debate whether certain courses are worthy of attention, and that is certainly a subjective discussion because what is worthy of my attention may not be worthy of another's attention.
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It would be funny for if Gil Hanse said this was his favorite course, I am sure others would share similar opinions.
Umm, maybe. But it seems important to note that it's NOT Gil Hanse's favorite course. Gil Hanse didn't come into esteem by having poor taste. I would suggest it's more likely that if Gil Hanse's favorite courses were places like Goat Hill, no one would know who Gil Hanse was.I am not surprised by your response.
There's a middle ground here. I'd happily play Goat Hill if I was on the island and wanted to be outside on a nice evening. I wouldn't travel to Shetter Island just to play it though. And honestly Ben, neither would you. I'll wager a six-pack of your favorite "craft" on that. Put your money where your beer is and buy a plane ticket, or stop throwing around the term "bucket list" when you really mean "list of courses I like looking at pictures of online." It's offensive to people with terminal illness.I don't typically fly to play golf courses. It is honestly a top course on my bucket list if I was in LI. I would want to play it as much as the other top courses. Your opinions and constant thread jacking is offensive to productive debates on the merits of golf arch.
There are THOUSANDS of courses like this around the country. Rock Creek in DC. Bogie (sic) Busters at Coal Ridge in Georgetown, KY. Dannebrog Golf Club. Spring Valley in Wisconsin. Anthony Gray's White Day. Tons of others. They are discussed appropriately. I enjoy looking at photos of them and learning more about them, but it's not about the course. It's about the soul of the game they represent. If you believe that what Goat Hill represents is significant, you're right on the money. But if you believe the course itself is worthy of even 10% of the architectural discussion devoted to its neighbors at Shinnecock and NGLA, then you're even more clueless than I've given you credit for, and I'm a jackass who loves to exaggerate so that's really saying something.I wouldn't of given Goat Hill the time of day 3 years ago, my tastes and outlook has changed. The day GH receives 10% of what Shinney and NGLA do is the day GCA goes mad.
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I hate to say it but I think there is a high probability that if Jeff had sent the photos to someone other than Ben to start a thread on Goat Hill, some of the negative posts wouldn't show up in the thread. The way that some make things personal on here is pretty disappointing, but that's really old hat isn't it?
Jeff's a successful golf teacher with a radio show. I'm guessing he didn't get where he is by being clueless about marketing. There's no hotter brand on this site right now than BCowan. With the course construction market still down, he might be the biggest name in GCA at the moment, period.
It's sort of like Ben's comment about how Goat Hill would be popular if it was Gil Hanse's favorite course. Is Hanse popular because of groupthink, or popular because he actually has good taste and creates good courses? I think the latter. Likewise, I don't think Ben draws disagreement because he's Ben. I think he draws disagreement because he continues to add to a history of commenting on courses he hasn't played, starting discussions that get threads deleted, throwing personal insults, and posting without proofreading. To his credit, he appears to be doing much better on the final item, and I don't see any reason to believe this thread is heading toward being deleted yet either. So he's got that going for him...
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how does Goat Hill compare to Highland Links in Truro? it seems they share some similarities, particularly in the routing and the looks off the tee. it's been a while, but i remember HL's greens being relatively flat and unnecessarily slow.
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On topic, I haven't met Jeff, but I like his taste in golf courses. Matter of fact, on the morning I was driving out to play Sebonack last summer, I had the idea in my head that I would stop and play Goat Hill. Keith O'Halloran advised me not to attempt it only because the ferry schedule might not be in my favor and we didn't want to risk being late for our afternoon round. I still think I could've made it. ;)
+1 to Jeff's tastes seemingly being in line with my own as well, and -1 to Keith :D
I should probably post this in the post GCA tastes thread, but this course would have drawn a much different reaction from me 5 years ago than today. I wouldn't put it on my bucket list, but these photos leave me with a strong desire to play here because it looks FUN. It may not be polished like many of the favorites on here, but it's also left alone - unharmed, if you will. I've played Torrey dozens of times and the criticism is deserved in my eyes. Courses with seemingly great sites that become muddled with bunker after bunker and fairway after fairway that all look like they could be transplanted to other sites and slide right in with another course become boring and repetitive. Now playing golf at Torrey is pleasant as can be without the course considered, and I by no means hate the course itself, but there are MANY ways it could be improved (we're talking South here).
What I see at Goat Hill that makes me want to play it isn't easy to put a finger on. I guess it just looks unspoiled. Even if "all" that was done on that site was routing and creating the 9th green, one of the things I've learned is that creating an interesting course solely from the routing is damn special. Obviously Goat Hill isn't making any top 100 lists anytime soon, but through the pictures and Jeff's descriptions I can tell that it would definitely hold my interest. I already have a healthy dose of well-irrigated, "well"-bunkered, and "well"-shaped golf courses at my disposal; I think we could all use a little more Goat Hill.
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I feel compelled to re-state that I think Goat Hill is a really fun course. In post #24, I was mostly trying to state all that was great about the place. I added the last few comments to represent that I am being balanced in my commentary. Perhaps it was unnecessary to do so, but I felt compelled. I simply don't feel it is quite worth the time and money to take the ferry over, just to play the course. If anyone else on this discussion group had played there and felt that way, I would want to hear from them before I went out of my way to play here.
I want to apologize for taking a personal shot at BCowan in public. Whether or not I agree with his opinions on this course or any other, that was the wrong thing to do. Rather than deleting posts, I will just go on the record as saying sorry.
Lastly, I am a big believer in the value of actually having been to a golf course to comment on its quality. Nobody here can debate that walking a course and/or playing it (perhaps several times) provides more substance than photos in forming an opinion. I too love to look at photos of places I have never played and think of how they might play. I just do my best not to comment on courses that I haven't been to, but I understand others have different views.
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Also, way to drop the "When I played Sebonack, Pookie" on us unfortunate sorts.
Pinkie finger extended at a 75* angle whilst sipping fine champagne from the lido deck..
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I would play it. I love places like this.
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I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''. Nice try Brian. One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something. Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.
Ben, I must remind you that back in September I asked you, in person, about your thoughts on the 17th at St. Andrews. At least ten members of this forum were in the room. You stated "I can't comment on it. I don't know what I would think of it, because I haven't seen it in person."
I don't recall the conversation and the way in which you are framing it, not questioning your honesty I'll tell you right now #17 at TOC seems like a very interesting hole and is talked about across the world. It is interesting to have learned that it used to be a par 5. Why don't you bring up the conversation, ''the whole'' conversation''
We were discussing the 13th at Kingsley. You said the bunker fronting the green should be removed because it challenges players who try to run a ball onto the putting surface without employing great precision. I'm paraphrasing, of course, as you obviously didn't use those exact words. I tried to think of another hole with a bunker that challenges players who play an imprecise run-up, and the first one that came to mind was the 17th at St. Andrews. It's not the best example, but I was thinking slowly by my standards. You deflected the question like a pro by offering the response quoted above.
It is honestly a top course on my bucket list if I was in LI. I would want to play it as much as the other top courses.[/color]
I hope someone reading this offers you free rounds at both National and Goat Hill. If you choose Goat Hill over National, I'll also give you another six-pack of your favorite "craft" in addition to the six-pack already promised if you ever play Goat Hill in the first place. That's a whole 12 pack of "craft," if you're counting. Let me know if you'd like to mix and match. I'm also happy to send you a whole case if you just prefer them all in one box. Goat Hill looks like a wonderful place to drink them, actually.
Can anyone who has played it comment on their beverage policy? I do enjoy playing courses like this, and the 9th green seems like a great amphitheater to sit and drink with the sun going down and make snarky comments as people miss bogey putts.
The day GH receives 10% of what Shinney and NGLA do is the day GCA goes mad. [/color]
I'm glad we agree on this point.
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Also, way to drop the "When I played Sebonack, Pookie" on us unfortunate sorts.
Pinkie finger extended at a 75* angle whilst sipping fine champagne from the lido deck..
Thus is the greatness of Smith.
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how does Goat Hill compare to Highland Links in Truro? it seems they share some similarities, particularly in the routing and the looks off the tee. it's been a while, but i remember HL's greens being relatively flat and unnecessarily slow.
Mark...HL's greens ARE relatively flat. Great memory you have.
In my current and well-received thread on Pine Crest (I'm in negotiations to morph it into a TedEX talk) found here (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57926.0.html), one of the distinguishing, excellent elements of Pine Crest is the movement o'the greens.
However, Jeff does suggest that there is movement on the greens of the goat.
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I finally get to see Goat Hill :) The course looks okay to me. The kicker would be the green fee - cheap and cheerful would sell me - $50 would turn me cold. I am not sure its the sort of thng I would drive well out of my way for, but as a comfortable stop and have go I think it works fine. The thing with these sorts of places is that every onece in a while you hit on a keeper and to find that out you need to turn up and have a go. I can fully understand where jeff is coming from in terms of a place growing on one. It took me some time before the penny dropped concerning Kington, but now its my favourite course on the planet. Some places just need to work into the skin.
Thanks for the pix Ben and Jeff.
Ciao
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I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''. Nice try Brian. One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something. Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.
Ben, I must remind you that back in September I asked you, in person, about your thoughts on the 17th at St. Andrews. At least ten members of this forum were in the room. You stated "I can't comment on it. I don't know what I would think of it, because I haven't seen it in person.Well at the time I was at a loss for words.
I don't recall the conversation and the way in which you are framing it, not questioning your honesty I'll tell you right now #17 at TOC seems like a very interesting hole and is talked about across the world. It is interesting to have learned that it used to be a par 5. Why don't you bring up the conversation, ''the whole'' conversation''
We were discussing the 13th at Kingsley. You said the bunker fronting the green should be removed because it challenges players who try to run a ball onto the putting surface without employing great precision. I'm paraphrasing, of course, as you obviously didn't use those exact words. I tried to think of another hole with a bunker that challenges players who play an imprecise run-up, and the first one that came to mind was the 17th at St. Andrews. It's not the best example, but I was thinking slowly by my standards. You deflected the question like a pro by offering the response quoted above."One is a long par 4, that used to be a par 5. The other is a drivable par 4. are they really similar? I possibly did deflect the answer when discussing TOC
It is honestly a top course on my bucket list if I was in LI. I would want to play it as much as the other top courses.[/color]
I hope someone reading this offers you free rounds at both National and Goat Hill. If you choose Goat Hill over National, I'll also give you another six-pack of your favorite "craft" in addition to the six-pack already promised if you ever play Goat Hill in the first place. That's a whole 12 pack of "craft," if you're counting. Let me know if you'd like to mix and match. I'm also happy to send you a whole case if you just prefer them all in one box. Goat Hill looks like a wonderful place to drink them, actually.That it does
Can anyone who has played it comment on their beverage policy? I do enjoy playing courses like this, and the 9th green seems like a great amphitheater to sit and drink with the sun going down and make snarky comments as people miss bogey putts.
The day GH receives 10% of what Shinney and NGLA do is the day GCA goes mad. [/color]
I'm glad we agree on this point.
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Jeff's a successful golf teacher with a radio show. I'm guessing he didn't get where he is by being clueless about marketing. There's no hotter brand on this site right now than BCowan. With the course construction market still down, he might be the biggest name in GCA at the moment, period.Thurman you do more to derail threads than anyone. I don't do construction anymore, it was a great learning experience. I am not going to sit and have some rank greens committee person like yourself tell me I don't know anything about drainage!
It's sort of like Ben's comment about how Goat Hill would be popular if it was Gil Hanse's favorite course. Is Hanse popular because of groupthink, or popular because he actually has good taste and creates good courses? I think the latter. Likewise, I don't think Ben draws disagreement because he's Ben. I think he draws disagreement because he continues to add to a history of commenting on courses he hasn't played, starting discussions that get threads deleted, throwing personal insults, and posting without proofreading. To his credit, he appears to be doing much better on the final item, and I don't see any reason to believe this thread is heading toward being deleted yet either. So he's got that going for him...Thurman, ''nobody remembers when you are right, but everybody remembers when you are wrong'' I never said Goat Hill should be liked by all or that Belvedere and Lawsonia were top 100! You don't add personal insults, really? Who calls people dumb all the time? Responding to you is such a waste of time
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Brian
Thank You.
okay lets get back to the golf course. People who have played and people who haven't.
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On topic, I haven't met Jeff, but I like his taste in golf courses.
Bingo. Reason enough to play it, no matter what it looks like in photos.
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how does Goat Hill compare to Highland Links in Truro? it seems they share some similarities, particularly in the routing and the looks off the tee. it's been a while, but i remember HL's greens being relatively flat and unnecessarily slow.
Mark...HL's greens ARE relatively flat. Great memory you have.
In my current and well-received thread on Pine Crest (I'm in negotiations to morph it into a TedEX talk) found here (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57926.0.html), one of the distinguishing, excellent elements of Pine Crest is the movement o'the greens.
However, Jeff does suggest that there is movement on the greens of the goat.
Pine Crest looks like an absolute blast to play. great stuff there.
yeah, I would've loved to have seen more interesting greens at HL and more F&F conditions, something the Goat doesn't seem to be lacking. the scenery at HL makes up for it a bit, though. same goes for Watkins Glen and its views of Seneca Lake.
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Ben, I'm not big on name-calling. If you can find an example where I called someone dumb on this forum, I'll send you another six-pack of your favorite craft. If you find it on your smartphone while playing Goat Hill after turning down an NGLA invitation, that's 18 beers I'll be sending you. Calling someone a moron in the GCA Mucci Moron context doesn't count, nor does pointing out the inherent stupidity in an idea. I sometimes get off on tangents, it's true. But you're welcome to disrupt any thread of mine to offer me beer.
But back to Goat Hill, can you (or anyone else) talk a bit more about why you think Goat Hill has architectural significance and is worthy of further discussion on this site? I can see that the property is interesting. I can see that the ground game is alive. I hear the surrounding views are nice. As I said earlier, I understand that it represents something pure and that alone is significant beyond what's on the ground, but this site exists to discuss the latter. What is the significance of the architecture on the ground?
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''unsurprising lack of contextual understanding''- Doral thread post 215.
I am not going to spend all day digging up Thurman responses and how much you look down at others you don't agree with. I have enough craft, but thanks. back to the goat!
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As a lover of 9 hole courses, and for my fancy friends in The Hamptons and elsewhere, Jeff is a little too enthusiastic about Shelter Island Country Club aka Goat Hill. The rankings for 9 hole public courses on the East End of Long Island are:
1. Poxabogue - Hull did the course, and with a driving range, Dead Guy pedigree and a restaurant popular with Hipsters, it strikes a nice balance in the overdone Hamptons.
2. Sag Harbor Golf Course - Water views and cheap beer, made famous in a published book by a Harvard golfer who used it as his home course to play "professionally". I forget the book title, anyone?
3. SICC - well covered above, but also home to the after-party for the well-known Shelter Island 10K in June.
If Bridgehampton and Quoque were public, Goat Hill would not make Top 5 !
Let's be honest, how many have re-played Painswick since the GCA outing?
Mike,
Is that a serious post?
rankings? really?
I'm a member of Sag Harbor GC and NEVER play there. Dead flat terrain , boring greens 1/2 the size of the Goat. Stupid trees everywhere, Africa deep lost ball small corridors. To be fair though the course has far more credibility and integrity than the "harvard" author ::) ::) ::) you reference)
and it's much grassier and greener than Goat Hill due to snuck in irrigation, but I would not consider the conditions better.
Poxabogue is a bunch of par 3'' and a couple simple 300 yard flat par 4's.Have you seriously played it? Zero drivers?-maybe 1?
I often play Qougue and Bridgehampton, and while both are well conditioned and good, and have some architectural meirit(both have pretty interesting greens), I'd say the Goat is far more strategic but t be fair those other two are very solid 9 hole courses.
I've played The Goat over 300 times, haven't yet been to Painswick
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I'd never heard of the course and just got to the profile/thread this morning. After a few photos, I would've guessed it was somewhere in England, except that something was slightly off -- the sky, maybe, or the lack of Colt-styled bunkers, or the quality of the light and of the vegetation. But overall, it has the same feeling to me that Sean's modest English courses do, i.e. as if someone had casually draped a course over the land, and then not struggled too hard to try to make it 'right' -- an ease and a simplicity (of design/intent and presentation and playability) that just makes me feel calm and happy and seems to me all that golf needs to be. Not surprised that someone would play it 300 times -- why not? To paraphrase an old line, it offers as much golf as any reasonable man can reasonably expect to enjoy.
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how does Goat Hill compare to Highland Links in Truro? it seems they share some similarities, particularly in the routing and the looks off the tee. it's been a while, but i remember HL's greens being relatively flat and unnecessarily slow.
back to architecture
Highland Links I've only played 3 times in 3 different decades so I'm a bit fuzzy.
first, it has several true links holes that are scenic, linksy and the real deal. great feel to the place high above the ocean.
A few pedestrian holes, but to be fair my experience there is pre GCA and perhaps I didn't notice few subtleties.
I really like Highland Links, and it definitely has better turf including the greens ,(edit evidently they are flat ::) )though The Goat's putt very true, they are slow and should be with all the tilt, they are also springy or spongy due to infrequent aerification, but not soft.
Tough call as I like both, but Highland Links as a scenic semi links experience, Goat Hill as a more interesting test.
To summarize Goat Hill, with the exception of #2 (which is still 40-50 yards wide), there is a ton of available width at Goat Hill, the terrain, greenslopes, and firmness are the hazards, and being out of position on the tee shot is its own clever penalty.
Minimalism? check
terrain? check
variety? check
blindness, yet "educated visibility" check
strategy ? check
Ground game? check +
cool vibe/clubhouse? check
Interesting? check
greens FULL of character that politely request tee shot placement to take advantage of them? Check
circa 1897 -the clubhouse was rolled up "Goat Hill" on logs after being moved from another location
No one has to love or like The Goat, but to suggest courses such as Goat Hill get too much attention on here is ludicrous.
The greatest thing on this site are the photo tours, esp of unknown places by the likes of Sean Arble.
Thanks to Ben Cowan who posted these pics for me.
I'm still laughing at the poster who suggested I had him post for marketing reasons ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I've been hiding for 18 years ;)
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I finally get to see Goat Hill :) The course looks okay too me. The kicker would be the green fee - cheap and cheerful would sell me - $50 would turn me cold. I am not sure its the sort of thng I would drive well out of my way for, but as a comfortable stop and have go I think it works fine. The thing with these sorts of places is that every onece in a while you hit on a keeper and to find that out you need to turn up and have a go. I can fully understand where jeff is coming from in terms of a place growing on one. It took me some time before the penny dropped concerning Kington, but now its my favourite course on the planet. Some places just need to work into the skin.
Thanks for the pix Ben and Jeff.
Ciao
You're in luck Sean
$21 for 18, $15 for 9
I must say I'm pissed though. ;) ;D
Went to the website to find those prices and I read "foursomes who ride the north or south ferry only need to play for Three players"
I've been frequenting the place for nearly 20 years, and paying full boat for foursomes +cart and no one has EVER mentioned that,
let's hope that's a new policy......
Sean,
the Goat is perfect as an afternoon stop after Gardiner's Bay or even better arrived at by Boat, though there have been some interesting adventures returning home in the dark after a few interesting diversions and detours
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You're in luck Sean
$21 for 18, $15 for 9
I must say I'm pissed though. ;) ;D
Went to the website to find those prices and I read "foursomes who ride the north or south ferry only need to play for Three players"
I've been frequenting the place for nearly 20 years, and paying full boat for foursomes +cart and no one has EVER mentioned that,
let's hope that's a new policy......
...or consider the over-payments well intended donations?
Well yes, $15 to have a go is a bit of a no brainer if in the area. The real question then becomes if there is a local hostel which is included in the green fee :)
Ciao
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no hostel, but just down the road is a rather chi chi nouveaux riche establishment which sells $12 drinks where an assistant of mine spent the night in a hammock
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Here are the caveats to my statements:
1. I have played Goat Hill
2. I have not played or studied it nearly as much as Jeff has
3. No one cares what I think
4. Jeff definitely likes "these type" of courses more than I do.
That being said, GH is the type of course you play, have fun, and get into a state that in unsuitable for architectural study, which is fine because it may be unworthy of architectural study.
The world needs ditch diggers too.
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Here are the caveats to my statements:
1. I have played Goat Hill
2. I have not played or studied it nearly as much as Jeff has
3. No one cares what I think
4. Jeff definitely likes "these type" of courses more than I do.
That being said, GH is the type of course you play, have fun, and get into a state that in unsuitable for architectural study, which is fine because it may be unworthy of architectural study.
The world needs ditch diggers too.
Judge Smails,
Pick a public access course on Long Island
let's do a hole by hole comparison of width,interest, strategy, ground game,green complexes, terrain and architecture vs. the goat
Signed,
a ditchdigger fan
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Jeff,
That is the point. You like the ditch diggers, and that is great. You know I will go to GH with you and play whenever you want, and have as much fun as anyone, that being said, I would not recommend it to many people. What would you give it if you were submitting it for the new Confidential Guide?
I will take your word on the comparison to other publics on LI, but I do not have a high opinion of most of them either.
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If given the premise of Tom's original CG (a Guide for his friends), I would have it as a Gourmet's Choice
The Jeff rating of a 9 (unlike Tom I give it an extra point for being 9 holes ;D) would come with a conditioning disclaimer (and a helmet)
and no I'm not currently in a state "unsuitable for architectural study" ;) ;D
I have The Goat at 7-2 vs Bethpage Black on the front nine, and 6-3 on the back nine ;D and that's being generous to bethpage, and looking past its boring and unfun maintenance meld of ribbon fairway and high rough- much less useable width-not that flat fast greens demand placement of tee shots anyway
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Jeff,
I would agree with almost any argument against Bethpage Black. I have no real yen to get back there. I have no problem with people who think it is a great course, but it is not my cup of tea. What is we took all the tallgrass out of tallgrass?
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Jeff,
I would agree with almost any argument against Bethpage Black. I have no real yen to get back there. I have no problem with people who think it is a great course, but it is not my cup of tea. What is we took all the tallgrass out of tallgrass?
Tallgrass would be a tougher compare, as I've only played it with snow on the ground and I definitely was in a state unsuitable for architectural study ;)-liked it though
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this is an excellent thread and I have enjoyed reading it whilst it snows again here in NE Ohio. I first heard about GH while on the 5th hole at The Bridge and it was none other than Jeff Warne who was schooling me on its merits. My interests were high considering the source. I respect Jeff and his opinions on golf courses. I imagine he has seen a whole lot of the best of what golf has to offer. And that might be one of the chief reasons why he likes Goat Hill so much. I believe that only after you've seen the so called "bests" can you open your mind to appreciate a place like The Goat. Which is why Jeff started the thread about "Have your views on GCA changed". I think everybody's views change the more they experience different types of golf and golf architecture (good and bad).
I have not played GH and while I have played many amazing places, I don't think I could fall in love with a place like GH just yet. I'm sure I could enjoy my time there, but I would probably wondering in the back of my head if I would be having a better time somewhere else on the Island. And I think this might be where views like that of Brian Hoover are coming from. Brian, by his own admissions, hasn't played a ton of the best, so he is craving more of that, not a 9 hole cabbage patch that takes many rounds to appreciate.
Either way, nobody is wrong. And it is definitely interesting conversation to have while I wait for this latest round of 5 inches of snow to melt!
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And just checked the green fee. $21 for 18 holes = golf utopia, for me at least.
As a Brit with an appalling preconceived idea of American golf these tours are a real pleasure, not to mention eye opener. I apologise for my ignorance and hope my education continues.
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Jeff,
How is the burger there? that could add another .5 point on your doak scale...
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'They aren't great architecture. They are good examples of someone wanting to play golf so throwing down greens and tees in straight lines.
So let's not try to make them something they aren't on GCA.'
This was posted earlier in the thread and I just wondered what people think. Is it better GCA to use the land as it is to create a fun course to play or is the better GCA when there is a lot of earth movement?
For me it is better to utilise the ground to its fullest and only tweak as needed.
Jon
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Jon,
Perhaps this is being too simplistic, but I want the best final product. If the property requires earth moving to maximize its potential, I am OK with it.
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Keith,
I probably have not explained myself clearly enough. If two holes are laid out over identical land one of which is laid out using the land as it is with little or no earth movement and the other completely alters the entire lay of the land. Both are equally good to play but which is the better GCA?
Jon
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And that might be one of the chief reasons why he likes Goat Hill so much. I believe that only after you've seen the so called "bests" can you open your mind to appreciate a place like The Goat. Which is why Jeff started the thread about "Have your views on GCA changed". I think everybody's views change the more they experience different types of golf and golf architecture (good and bad).
I have not played GH and while I have played many amazing places, I don't think I could fall in love with a place like GH just yet. I'm sure I could enjoy my time there, but I would probably wondering in the back of my head if I would be having a better time somewhere else on the Island. And I think this might be where views like that of Brian Hoover are coming from. Brian, by his own admissions, hasn't played a ton of the best, so he is craving more of that, not a 9 hole cabbage patch that takes many rounds to appreciate.
Bill,
Those are excellent insights.
and are one of the reasons I rarely expose the Goat to first timers who travel to the Hamptons for golf.
Too many things they feel they need to see first, and they should max their time doing what they want/need to see.
and when I take members to the UK or Ireland for their first time, for every Pennard, Dunfanaghy, and Mulranny, I offet them big name or Open rota type courses they can brag about --but the big guns are rarely the ones they like or discuss most. Nonetheless, having a comparison, and most importantly, making sure they feel they haven't missed something, is hugely important.
Over time, with my regular travel partners, the trips have morphed into less big guns and more adventurous choices-especially 9 holers that are great supplements to a morning 18 holer.
The other thing that has to be factored in is what I'm escaping from after a full weekend at my workplace, which is the polar opposite of The Goat.
Nothing better than slipping out of work on a Monday at noon, putting on the shorts, loading the clubs and cooler in the boat and enjoying ride to and from The Goat-followed by a series of one hour 9 hole rounds of fun, interesting golf with no ball searches,
BCowan,
One of my great disappointments is that the restaurants at the Goat, though a very popular evening dining spot, is not open for lunch weekdays-even for hot dogs ;D
There's a deli about 100 yards from the second green that seems to accomodate cart traffic well ;D
Keith,
I think The Goat makes as good of use the land as any course I've ver played. Thank God they had no earthmoving equipment.
My guess is that The Goat were maintained in private club condition, the place would be packed, and its ruination would be imminent, both in pace of play, atmosphere, and eventual architectural bastardizations resulting in being a part of the continued homogonization of once interesting golf courses.
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Yes-. Don't go. It sucks. Really. Also- Shelter Island is a terrible place. No fun at all.
The worst part about this thread- an actual hidden gem has been exposed.
Goat Hill vs Truro
7-3.
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Jeff,
I was not really speaking of Goat Hill when I made my post. More of a general statement. From what I heard, Wolf Point had to be created. I am glad that is was created as it seems to be amazing. It seems like a course on that property would not have been as good without the earth moving, and I am OK with that.
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I think this might be the only thread in the history of GCA in which everyone is "right."
I for one DID take the ferry to specifically play Shelter Island CC this past December. I played alone with no one else on the course, enjoyed the walk and left the island relaxed and content with life. Just a game of golf on a brisk, sunny Saturday afternoon.
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You might have to be a good player who actually plays an 18 hole match for money, and pays at the end to appreciate Goat Hill. I say this because it might be possible a place like the Goat can only be fully understood under those conditions.
There is so much variety in the shots and a major premium on execution- that it brings out such emotion upon the execution of the shot at hand- be that good or bad. Is it possible that only then are you able to appreciate the 'shot values'- perhaps they are missed upon a casual poorly played round with no stakes- but that might be a topic for another thread completely.
For those who haven't played Goat Hill- you have no idea. It's as simple as that.
If I died tomorrow I would go in the ground having played many of the best courses in the United States. Goat Hill is one of this country's great golf courses- for many, many reasons.
I do agree with the Gil Hanse idea- the Goat would certainly get more play from architecture enthusiasts visiting the East End- and if you did in fact visit- it would make sense why Gil Hanse enjoys it- probably the same way Benard Darwin enjoyed Aberdovey. Additionally- as I sit here after another piss poor day at the disgusting Doral- I can't help but think I will have 'the feeling of a schoolboy returning home from school' when I bob my ass along the South Ferry about to rip my first tee shot of the season off the thrilling first tee- why thrilling you ask? Thrilling because I know that I have a 15 yard bottle neck at about 275 to hit- and I will know right off the club head whether or not I will have a look at 2- and a go at the illusive 5 under 9 hole course record.
Thousands of places like the Goat? Naaaah. Just one Goat Hill.
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I think this might be the only thread in the history of GCA in which everyone is "right."
I for one DID take the ferry to specifically play Shelter Island CC this past December. I played alone with no one else on the course, enjoyed the walk and left the island relaxed and content with life. Just a game of golf on a brisk, sunny Saturday afternoon.
Gene you got that "right". The Goat brings us all back where it began. Mom drops you off at the golf club and you play all
day. It's the love of the game not so much where it's played.
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This has turned into quite a good thread. I still maintain my stance that this course could be one of many in the US. There are many on here with very considerate and highly regarded opinions and I don't mean to say they are wrong at all. But I still don't see how this is a good example of great architecture? I get it, there are a ton of blind shots and canted fairways but does it really do anything unique?
Like I said, I grew up playing on a course like Goat Hill. Our high school "circuit" was played on courses just like Goat Hill. I could name a dozen courses with holes just like these.
That's not to take anything away from it either. I think places like Goat Hill and Country Club of Casey, Illinois and Eagle Ridge in Paris, Illinois are great places. They are quirky and short and weird. AND they provide perfect places for people to learn the game while being low cost options. To me places like these are keys in getting people interested in the game. But let's not romanticize them into something they aren't. That's all I'm saying.
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New one on me... Looks like low key, great fun.
Thanks
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''Thank God Tom Doak didn't discover this or the course would be cluttered with Mackenzie bags Wink Wink Grin Grin''
That might be best of 2014, I almost fell off my chair from laughing so hard. Jeff 3 under is the course record? If so it has stood up to technology pretty well.
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I get it, there are a ton of blind shots and canted fairways but does it really do anything unique?
Josh,
I understand what you are saying but you can put that test to any course. Is for example NGLA unique? I think not as it is full of template holes and yet at the same time it is unique as many here would argue. There are very few truly unique courses and of the big names I would suggest that TOC is the best example of such and yet how did that develop? Is it great GCA or just a happy accident?
Jon
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The worst part about this thread- an actual hidden gem has been exposed.
I don't think you need to worry about legions of golfers crowding you out at Goat Hill. We have our own places like this in our hometowns.
But seriously, there is always room for all types of courses, whether they are NGLA, Oakmont, Goat Hill, Shadow Creek, Doral, etc. If I had a lot of beer and was with a group of friends, I think Goat Hill would be the perfect place for an 8-some (for golf...nothing else).
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What does the logo look like and are there trolleys?
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What does the logo look like and are there trolleys?
My nomination for post of the year!
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I get it, there are a ton of blind shots and canted fairways but does it really do anything unique?
Josh,
I understand what you are saying but you can put that test to any course. Is for example NGLA unique? I think not as it is full of template holes and yet at the same time it is unique as many here would argue. There are very few truly unique courses and of the big names I would suggest that TOC is the best example of such and yet how did that develop? Is it great GCA or just a happy accident?
Jon
Jon,
You are correct, and I probably shouldn't have used unique as the descriptor. But I have wonderful memories of my hometown course, the course record is -5 on 2700 yard par 35 with par 5s. There are severely sloped greens and canted fairways. There are really weird, quirky holes. Internal out of bounds. I could go on and on, but I'd never describe it as great architecture. That's all I'm saying.
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"Low key great fun"
"resists scoring for good players, yet your grandmother and 7 year old son can have a blast"
"Driving and approach width provided and preferred angles important"
"Interesting ground game"
"greens with lots of tilt that provide both curling super fast putts and correspondingly solid strike demanding uohill putts"
"variety of shots and premium on execution"
"variety of lengths and clubs used"
"firm and fast"
"exposed to wind"
"water views"
"Arble test"-clubhouse proximity and intimacy
"1897 pedigree"
This thread is not about Goat Hill.
(and I would caution one NOT to take time out of an invariably tight Hampton's itinerary at the expense of the many other great courses in the area-a lot of the "firm" comes from limited grass and the lies can VERY dicey)
I will add my amateur phone pictures do nothing to highlight the tilt of the greens and surrounds ::) ::)
This thread is more about the essence of architecture-and it also ties into the other thread about "have your tastes changed"
My favorite courses overseas are invariably designed by James Braid.
I rarely know who designed the course before I play it, as I could give a rat's ass about knowing a Redan from an Eden.(and to add to the contradiction, I love Raynor and MacDonald courses)
My understanding is that generally James Braid laid out stakes for tees and greens,collected his meager fee, and left the details to local laborers.
That would result in a lot of "lay of the land " type courses, with minimal earthmoving, and no doubt a lot of variety and consistency in the details due to practical reasons and cost.
My guess is the Goat evolved the same way.
Is it the ONLY way a course should evolve? of course not-not all terrain is as interesting.
For years NGLA was on no one's radar screen-I remember sending a pretty good player and "well traveled" player to National Golf Links from Atlantic -the THEN gold standard of faux links.
his response-"It's a lot of fun to play, but it's not a good course"
This site spends a ton of time on such classics as NGLA, PV,ANGC.(often negatively)
All courses and their evolution are worthy of study, as is such a gem like Wolf Point, or a wonderful transformation like Southampton.
So if a course meets the 12 criteria listed above, is it not good architecture?
It was mentioned there are thousands of Goat Hills around the country-I would dispute that, but if it's true I am in heaven.
So what defines good-great architecture?
and using this case study
What is Goat Hill lacking?
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Clean it up, add some pretty bunkers, have a famous architect "discover" it, and people would be tripping over themselves to say they knew about it before it became known.
Lets hope that never happens.
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Clean it up, add some pretty bunkers, have a famous architect "discover" it, and people would be tripping over themselves to say they knew about it before it became known.
Lets hope that never happens.
I don't think anyone has argued for that to happen. I think some of us who have been, let's say, critical of Goat Hill have said that we wouldn't go out of our way to play it because it doesn't strike us as architecturally significant (or whatever term you want to use). But, at the same time, we've conceded that it's probably a fun course and there's always room for all types of courses. Like Josh Tarble, I grew up on a course like this and it was lots of fun, but I would never say that my course had architectural significance. It was playable, affordable and fun, but folks weren't going out of their way to find it. Nothing wrong with that.
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Clean it up, add some pretty bunkers, have a famous architect "discover" it, and people would be tripping over themselves to say they knew about it before it became known.
Lets hope that never happens.
add a skyline green and you have sticky keyboards
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Clean it up, add some pretty bunkers, have a famous architect "discover" it, and people would be tripping over themselves to say they knew about it before it became known.
Lets hope that never happens.
I don't think anyone has argued for that to happen. I think some of us who have been, let's say, critical of Goat Hill have said that we wouldn't go out of our way to play it because it doesn't strike us as architecturally significant (or whatever term you want to use). But, at the same time, we've conceded that it's probably a fun course and there's always room for all types of courses. Like Josh Tarble, I grew up on a course like this and it was lots of fun, but I would never say that my course had architectural significance. It was playable, affordable and fun, but folks weren't going out of their way to find it. Nothing wrong with that.
I've been reading that, the "architecturally significant" stuff, and I have no idea what that means. What makes a course architecturally significant?
I think this course is very architecturally significant because of the land and the way the course lays on the land with a minimum of man made intrusions.
I could be wrong, but I think what "bores" people and make them think there is nothing of significance here is because the course doesn't have enough "stuff" scattered about. I believe it is this lack of "stuff" that makes it significant.
Jeff's decrpition of playing the course makes it sound like all sorts of shots can be used, and may be needed here. It sounds like there are very few "signs" leading you around. Where are the aiming points? Where is the framing telling me where not to go? It may not be a great course, but significant? I think it is significant in spades.
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Don,
You hit the soul of my post.
I think The Goat is VERY significant architecturally, and would be less so if altered.
If I bought the Goat (never gonna happen-town owned)
and I hired you for say 10 days as as a builder/consultant/architect.
I'd pay your full fee, we'd play the course, play it again,and again, have "lunch" ;)
discuss moving 3 cartpaths away from fronting/flanking greens (my quibble is they route cart traffic TO the green)
Then spend the next 9 days going on "research" field trips to various courses in the area,followed by evening emergency 27's at The Goat where I would attempt to win the fee back (and then some ;))
Ben
Course record 5 under -guy finished with an ace on 9! (about 30 years ago)
a 14 year old tied it a few years ago but we dispute it as he played winter rules (most do) and that makes a HUGE difference as to what type of pitch can be played to the demanding greens-with no irrigation or fairway maintenance lies can be very dicey.
Our rule at The Goat-no free drops, no touching ball,no gimmes
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I think Goat Hill would be the perfect place for an 8-some (for golf...nothing else).
Let's hope they don't allow 5-somes, as that would be a sad blight on such a fine corner of the game's spirit.
I'm still waiting for a more detailed discussion of the course's architectural significance. As I said before, I can see that it has fabulous terrain, lots of quirk, and firm "turf." I still don't see much to the architecture beyond that, as photos really don't do a course justice. Perhaps Jeff would be willing to discuss in detail the architectural strategy of one of the course's best holes? I read the brief hole-by-hole breakdown on page 1, but if there's more to it than that I'm happy to read along.
Keep in mind that I am fully convinced of Goat Hill's significance to the game. I believe courses like this embody the soul of our sport, in the same way that many of my favorite neighborhoods are rough-hewn inner city areas with buildings that ooze history and character and a close sense of almost familial community, or tiny towns of under 1000 people in the middle of nowhere with their own culture and unique lifestyle and amenities. The fact that the latter so frequently also feature courses like Goat Hill within a few miles of Main Street is not lost on me, nor is the fact that many of those inner city neighborhoods I love also happen to have extraordinary architecture. I'm not convinced Goat Hill doesn't, but I'm also not convinced that its firm conditions and quirk automatically mean that it does.
Also Jeff, just to be clear, my reference to your marketing knowledge was not intended to imply that you intend to market the course for any reason or have any financial stake in it. I was only referencing the page views this thread was destined to get thanks to your choice of OP.
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2. Sag Harbor Golf Course - Water views and cheap beer, made famous in a published book by a Harvard golfer who used it as his home course to play "professionally". I forget the book title, anyone?
The book is called Chasing the Dream - A Mid-Life Quest for Fame and Fortune on the Pro Golf Circuit by Harry Hurt III and, just like Tom Coyne's Paper Tiger describes what happens when a regular guy declares himself to be professional golfer. SPOILER ALERT a good golfer cannot simply decide to earn money playing professional golf and therefore this genre entirely lacks suspense, arc, and many other aspects of good storytelling.
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Jason,
We clearly have a different opinion of what is architecturally significant.
If you look at my previous post I list 12 things that I feel are important in judging a golf course.
the Goat ticks all 12 boxes.
I of course as you mention have the benefit of playing The Goat rather than judging it from photos.
I would say my descriptions of how to play each hole and my multiple posts would explain pretty well why I think the Goat has architectuaral significance, but I'll take another stab.
I honestly have a hard time picking a best hole as every hole there presents an abundance of choices (except #9 )on how best to tackle it, and a typical hole will see 4 scratch players hit 4 different shots into a green more often than not.
The choices to a first time Goater are not "all out in front of you"
there's not a hairy bunker that skirting or challenging, will present one with a better line.
there's no obvious risk reward at first glance.
Over time, one learns that on #3,a very benign looking hole from an aeriel, while you'd like to use the 100 yards of width to the right of centerline to hit a big slinger and catch a downslope to try to drive the green, you better drive the green-very few have, or at least get it back to center or you aren't making birdie.
the best line is just inside the left treeline, or even IN the treeline to give one an angle to the severely tilted green.
Like many other holes at The Goat, there is rarely an obvious penalty for a misplaced drive, but over time the guy consistently in the best position off the tee prospers, while the other is left to bemoan his fate at the "unfair" bounces he receives from his poor angles.
On #7, there is a shared fairway on 8 giving 100 yards of fairway, but the hard ground and movement to the right and a ball "down the middle" of 7 fairway can easily run into the woods on the right . that said, about the only way to get the second shot close to a green running away and sloping right, is to come in from the right which requires a good, long drive left center to allow for the slope but ends up right to right center.
That said I generally choose to just bomb it left and stay in the game as 4 is a good score here, but that leaves a very dicey blind runup pitch to a green running away across a very cool cutout feature where the green was reverse benched in
#8 may be the best "driveable" par 4 I've ever played.
Driving blind into the face of a steep hill, you can make out a tall tree in the distance which is behind the green.Ten yards right of that is a good line if you carry it about 250.
Short of that doesn't cary the hill and doesn't bounce forward,leaving a blind shot.
There's about a ten yards wide spine one needs to hit to drive the green, otherwise a very dicey pitch has to be played from either side, using the severe downhill slope pictured. A shorter driver has a longer blind pitch, but has a good chance of hitting the spine from 60-100 yards out which will generally propel the ball straight, assumimg the shot has the proper trajectory and weight.
Most of the fun of the Goat is coming over the hill and seeing where your ball ended up-if you know the course well it's quite predictable,but a man can dream ;D, a bit less so in spring when they get a bit of grass going ::) ::) or hard rains.
I had Ben post the photos because he suggested I do a photo tour.
i've never met Ben, but he and I engage in quite a few spirited debates offline, which certainly broaden my horizons ;).
and make me rethink and reformulate my opinions constantly.
I posted pretty detailed descriptions originally.
The Goat is not for everybody, and the poor turf condition can be frustrating to a lower skilled or nonversatile, unimaginative low handicap player, though higher handicaps and juniors usually love it.
I'm just waiting for you to tell me what about The Goat is NOT good architecture.
You noted it features "fabulous terrain, quirk, and firm turf"-a pretty darn good start.
I've posted it's loaded with width, strategy, variety, and options.
What's it lacking?
In this case, let's talk about The Goat as you see it in the pictures, not one of the "thousand" other courses like it.
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Jason-
I find it interesting that you choose to take on Goat Hill without ever playing it. Maybe that's part of the game here. I just think you set yourself up for trouble, because how could you even know what its like to try to play, on the 5th hole- a down hill par 3-thats pictured-, a 135 low running shot, short left of the green, in an effort to ride the 5 yard slot that takes you to a back left flag--the green tilts left to right, back to front- with as much severity in the game. The reason you chose that shot---because the prevailing is at your back, and a ball thrown up in that wind might launch your ball into the public road 10 yards behind the green. You also are down 2 facing the most interesting stretch of the course.
I think you're trying to basically take on the "Sheep Ranch" crowd---and you're right, not every low key, off the radar place is "Sheep Ranch". I pressed the crew I was traveling with to check out Chatham Seaside Links in Chatham MA after we were stormed out at Truro. Guess what--it wasn't all that great. When I did make it back to Truro- I thought it was cool--stunning site, but there was some bland architecture out there lacking strategy and variety in the driving and approach shots, and the closing holes were not inspiring. So I am with you as to not bring low key courses front and center simply because they are low key in an era of over done, expensive projects.
But guess what--we checked them out. For me that's the "endless summer" side of golf--.
As an aside, interesting you seem to be positively interested in "rough hewn" neighborhoods with a close sense of familial community, but hope the Goat doesn't allow 5 balls?
Explain to me how a 5 ball is bad for golf? Assuming that the management team DOES NOT ALLOW 5 BALLS ON A BUSY DAY.
Thanks, enjoying the discussion.
Mike Sweeney
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Fascinating. While I already noted why I like the place, Jason's questions strike me as sound ones -- and Jeff's answers strike me as valid. Which is to say, on a site dedicated to discussing golf course architecture, and that focuses on the great courses of the world, and that seems obsessed with top-ten and best-of lists of all kinds, it seems clear to me that the way any given golfer interacts with any particular design, and what he experiences in that interaction, and what he values most about that experience, is still a very open and subjective question/subject. More and more I have begun to hold two seemingly contradictory thoughts in my head: 1) I don't have nearly the insight nor intelligence nor learning to proclaim upon any aspect of a golf course's architecture/design or on the quality of the work/talent of its designer, and 2) I know exactly what I'm looking for and enjoy - aesthetically, philosophically, strategically, challengingly, socially, environmentally, and architecturally -- in a golf course, and if I find it I am well (and rightly!) pleased, and so would feel justified in proclaiming upon it endlessly.
Peter
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Jon,
You are correct, and I probably shouldn't have used unique as the descriptor. But I have wonderful memories of my hometown course, the course record is -5 on 2700 yard par 35 with par 5s. There are severely sloped greens and canted fairways. There are really weird, quirky holes. Internal out of bounds. I could go on and on, but I'd never describe it as great architecture. That's all I'm saying.
But then what is great GCA? I would say that the most challenging course from a strategic point of view is TOC and the most complete Alwoodley but neither jump out at you the first time you play them as being great GCA. It takes multiple plays to really get them. Is a course laid out on the land with little to no alteration not capable of been great GCA even if it is great to play?
On another not I assume that PV is rated by Tom D as a 10 and I have to say I was blown away by it the two times I played but when I really study the course I am struck by the fact that IMHO it is severely compromised by tree ingression. How is it possible for a course to be both great and therefore a 10 but also so compromised? Or is it that with less trees it would be neither better nor worse but simply different? I think not and for me PV is there for less than it could be.
Guess now I should run for cover before I get shot down for my last remarks though it could have been worse it could have been Merion ::)
Jon
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Jeff, Mike, don’t take my asking for an explanation of the course’s architectural merits as an implication that it lacks them. I believe that what I can judge from photos on a course with so little visual definition is very limited. That’s why I’m asking for your firsthand experience. I don’t intend to challenge you. I just want you to help me understand why I should think about taking the ferry over if I happen to be in the area sometime.
I really don’t understand Brian Hoover’s response that he would “steer clear” of the course, which he seems to have backed off on a bit. I’d be happy to play it with a buddy. But I also think claiming it’s one of the things you absolutely must see before you die is a little much. It looks fun, and I generally agree with Keith that it seems like a place to play and enjoy and not worry so much about architectural study. Any criticisms I’d level at the course itself feel almost unfair, precisely because dissecting courses like this is contrary to their purpose in my mind. It feels like critiquing a young kids jump shot - sure it’s not the embodiment of classical form, but it embodies a lot of joy and love for the game and it makes everyone feel pretty good when it works. There are things to critique, but even a cynical ass like me can see that there’s no value in dredging them.
Brian, Josh, myself, and many others have suggested that we grew up playing courses very similar to this and Goat Hill isn’t all that unique to us. Many have suggested that this looks like a fun place to play, but only Ben and Jeff and maybe one or two others have suggested they’d go well out of their way to play it. Jeff, Ben, would you be willing to discuss the courses you grew up on? I know Ben grew up playing at his parents’ club, which I doubt looks much like Goat Hill. Jeff, where did you learn the game? I suspect Goat Hill might be much more unique to your background than it is to mine, and perhaps that’s why courses like it occupy such a high ground in your eyes. I’d be happy to post some photos of my childhood courses if I get back to them this year. I think anyone who loves The Goat would be likely to find those courses similarly charming. While there’s endless space in my heart for courses like this, there’s frankly very little space for them in my travel itineraries these days. I’d happily stop in if I was on the island, but I doubt I’d take the ferry solely to visit.
Courses like this aren’t special because of their architecture in my eyes. Instead, courses like this are special because they create great memories for the people who play them. My great memories of courses like this simply lie elsewhere, at places where my roots run deep and my own golf history runs thick. They’re like a great inside joke in the sense that they mean a lot to a few and very little to most, and I can respect that sanctity of inside jokes enough to realize that I don’t need to share in all of them to understand why they make the people on the inside happy.
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Jon, you shouldn't get shot down. That was a tremendous post with tremendous questions. I don't have time to respond now, but I will think for a while and plan to respond later.
Mike, regarding the 5-somes, I was kidding. It's an inside joke that many participating on this thread will understand. See my post above for an explanation of why I won't explain it here.
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Jason-
Got it on the 5ball deal.
Here's where I think you're off--your lumping in Goat Hill, and unfortunately for you, other places that exist like it, that embody your view on what they are- just because they are low key. I really don't care if you think there's no architectural significance to the Goat--I just don't know how you could possibly make a conclusion based on some bad pictures?
Do you lump in Aberdovey with Sakonnet Golf Club or maybe Misquamicut?
MS
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But then what is great GCA?
I've been reading that, the "architecturally significant" stuff, and I have no idea what that means. What makes a course architecturally significant?
Jon,
Really, these two questions are the crux of conversation. I don't think that I can really answer it succinctly and perhaps Goat Hill needs to be seen before being discussed. I also believe these questions are matters of opinion. But, my reasoning in thinking about those things I mentioned, and being shown at Goat Hill, are more landforms or products out of necessity (OB or sloped greens).
To me, great architecture is combining all of those things to make memorable, thought-provoking golf holes. Just having landforms suited for golf doesn't mean its automatically a great golf course or hole.
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Josh and Jason,
"What is good GCA?" has changed for me over time. This thread http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42846.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42846.0.html) and eventually trying my own hand at routing in the armchair contests really changed my opinion on what great architecture is. I like to think I've had a bit of an education, though some of what I had said there still holds water. :)
It's as much how little earth the architect is able to move while making the course interesting/fun as anything else really. We may not be able to see it in the pictures of Goat Hill (and I haven't played there either), but the placement of tees and greens, even if that's all that was done really, is probably where 90% (or more) of good architecture comes from. If the course is able to fun and strategic when nearly nothing else has been done, then it is significant and still possesses great architecture. Taking the cross-section of courses that have little to no earth-movement and courses that are fun and strategic does not leave much unfortunately, and I'd imagine in the USA Goat Hill has many fewer peers than say... Torrey Pines.
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First of all-Chatham Seaside Links, though somewhat charming, wasn't much architecturally ;D.
Second,
I've played a 17some at The Goat, and regulalry in 8 somes so I guess 5 balls are OK ;) ;D
Jason,
I grew up at Augusta CC preSilva restoration-lots of width, small greens,rolling terrain-next door to ANGC.
in hindsight a fantastic place to learn the game.
My "Goat" was The Patch, aka the Augusta Golf Club, where I learned the hardpan ground game, and being nect to the airport, how to deal with wind. Super firm and fast, the course required a lot of local knowledge and was our high schools's home course. While we all bashed it, I learned a lot about scoring and dealing with adverse conditions, and it was tremendous pllace to learn link's skills, and our team dominated there.
We shot 280 to win our region by 69 shots. While the ground game was alive and well there, it lacked the green complexes of the goat so the tee shot game was more about simply hitting and holding the firm and fast fairways, and less about driving to the preferred place to take on the green's tilt. Different kind've strategy.
and of course we had the annual little spring event just over the fence from the Augusta CC ;D.
At that time I could see little in common with the three courses, and especially with a course like The Goat, but over time I've come to see that(under firm and fast conditions) the ground game and width go hand in hand with tilted greens, and that less tilted greens can provide challenge via the challenge of simply hitting the fairways.
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re: Chatham- I agree. The point was at least we checked it out- and had a good time doing it. What if you passed on Gweedore?
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I've played a 17some at The Goat, and regulalry in 8 somes so I guess 5 balls are OK ;) ;D
I think that's awesome. I actually might be more inclined to want to play a place like Goat Hill if large groups are permitted. I think that makes golf more fun.
But does allowing 5-somes+ detract from the purity of the place, at least in the eyes of some?
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I've played a 17some at The Goat, and regulalry in 8 somes so I guess 5 balls are OK ;) ;D
I think that's awesome. I actually might be more inclined to want to play a place like Goat Hill if large groups are permitted. I think that makes golf more fun.
But does allowing 5-somes+ detract from the purity of the place, at least in the eyes of some?
The Goat was never about purity.
Carts are the norm though people walk.
The 17some occurred when the local Goat clubhouse bar crowd decided they wanted to break the course record.
my assistant and I came up upon the group and we were invited to join-great fun.
the Goat is a case study of what happens when a course with reasonable bones is untouched for many years due to no money, and that lack of money leads to very few stupid course changing decisions, though they did plant a bunch of saplings a few years ago that thankfully died (hated to waste the Budweiser ;))
I do hope that anyone who is considering The Goat recognizes that conditions while ideal for firm and fast, are at best spotty, and the being in a hole is a 50-50 proposition, leading to some interesting lies and bounces, though the ball gets back on the original gravity track pretty soon.
Can you tell it's 21 degrees here with the wind blowing about 30? ::) ::)
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Hoover,
Whatever you do, don't let Jeff drive the golf cart, he struggles at times to keep it on 4 wheels...
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Jeff,
You have made a good case for the Goat here, and a lot of people seem interested. How about a GCA play day at The Goat? If you get less than 18, we could all play in the same group. We could either stay there, or go to The Corner Bar for bear pulling after!
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Jeff,
You have made a good case for the Goat here, and a lot of people seem interested. How about a GCA play day at The Goat? If you get less than 18, we could all play in the same group. We could either stay there, or go to The Corner Bar for bear pulling after!
That is a great idea. I would like to play it again, especially in light of the great discussion here. I am sure plenty of NY area folks would be interested. I will round up as many gca'ers as I can from the Midwest contingent - Hoover, Tarble, Thurman...you in?
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Jeff,
You have made a good case for the Goat here, and a lot of people seem interested. How about a GCA play day at The Goat? If you get less than 18, we could all play in the same group. We could either stay there, or go to The Corner Bar for bear pulling after!
That is a great idea. I would like to play it again, especially in light of the great discussion here. I am sure plenty of NY area folks would be interested. I will round up as many gca'ers as I can from the Midwest contingent - Hoover, Tarble, Thurman...you in?
Sure, preferably if we can all play in the same group...and use Keith's Chevy Volt Spark as our golf cart!
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Hoover,
It is a Chevy Spark, and yes it is OK for cart paths and most aprons!
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Jeff,
You have made a good case for the Goat here, and a lot of people seem interested. How about a GCA play day at The Goat? If you get less than 18, we could all play in the same group. We could either stay there, or go to The Corner Bar for bear pulling after!
These are the rules
1. The Commissioner makes the rules
2. Don't forget rule #1
3. Carts mandatory
4. Budweiser mandatory-though supplementing with shots perfectly acceptable
5.Gambling mandatory-Commissioner sets handicaps-usually a 30-50% reduction-additional shots avilable for those who waterski over
6.$10 whine fines-nobody gives a shit how you usually play or how fast your greens are at home
7. don't touch your ball
8.putt 'em all out-if it's a gimme you should be able to make it
9.no rangefinders
10. Non GCA outing pace enforced -1 1/2 hour nines maximum for 4 balls.
10.NO BEARD PULLING, or any other body parts
way too many good bars on Shelter Island to go back to mainland-but take a cab
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I am in. As you know, I usually violate rule 4 with Bud Light, but in accordance with rule 1, I will comply. Let me know the date, and I will be there.
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I am in. As you know, I usually violate rule 4 with Bud Light, but in accordance with rule 1, I will comply. Let me know the date, and I will be there.
Might be cheaper to just send a check, but less fun....
Bud Light acceptable if presented in a sippy cup
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Sounds like my normal game rules, if you take out the water-skiing adjustment and add:
11. Mulligans allowed, but only if you shotgun a beer prior to the retee.
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I was in until you girls said Budweiser
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Sounds like my normal game rules, if you take out the water-skiing adjustment and add:
11. Mulligans allowed, but only if you shotgun a beer prior to the retee.
Gameover, Keith will win. Sounds like you guys have room for 11, maybe 12 more in your group? :D
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Sounds like my normal game rules, if you take out the water-skiing adjustment and add:
11. Mulligans allowed, but only if you shotgun a beer prior to the retee.
Gameover, Keith will win. Sounds like you guys have room for 11, maybe 12 more in your group? :D
Never, ever understimate the powers of the Commissioner
Who needs a mulligan to shotgun a beer? ::) ::) ::)
The Goat, and Budweiser, are the ultimate acid tests ;)
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OK Jeff, this is starting to shape up. We have a commissioner, we have rules, we have a venue, now we need is a date and a field. I am hoping that you have sparked enough curiosity for people to come out.
Anyone, Anyone Bueller? Bueller?
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I'm in and perhaps the commissioner will make some special dispensation for me since I'll bet that I will be the only participant who played his first round of golf ever here -- and at the ripe old age of 41 at that!
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Summer for sure-Goat's gotta be prime
am Bridge-walking only
pm Goat riding only
Monday in late June
Can play Goat only.
Can't play Bridge only
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I will keep the 16, 23 and 30 open and await your decree. I assume that the commissioner would rule by decree?
P.S. can we take trolleys to carry the beer?
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I will keep the 16, 23 and 30 open and await your decree. I assume that the commissioner would rule by decree?
P.S. can we take trolleys to carry the beer?
Ok -walked the Goat today- 18 holes with Chuck Glowacki (Goat virgin)
Turns out I am a conditions freak. ;D
Course was soft from snow melt, heavy rain last night and rain Wednesday
Tough to pitch off tight wet dirt ::) ::) and much less bounce than usual, but gravity still a strong force and the ball was running decently, but first bounce far less lively-greens quite nice.
Nice day and good to be playing again-29 degrees and snow predicted for Monday
We both agreed Indian Island next week and give The Goat a chance to firm up-don't want to get used to a (semi) aeriel game ;)
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So, you get someone to go for the first time, he doesn't like it, and you blame the unusual conditions? Where have I heard that before? ;D
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So, you get someone to go for the first time, he doesn't like it, and you blame the unusual conditions? Where have I heard that before? ;D
'Too bad you're seeing the course like this, the greens are usually faster'
::)
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So, you get someone to go for the first time, he doesn't like it, and you blame the unusual conditions? Where have I heard that before? ;D
Oh he liked it it, he won a press (course I had to talk him into it ;))
It was me that didn't like less of a Goat advantage
and Mark, you're close,
except I had to tell him "the greens aren't usually this good" ;D ;D they were really good
Must've been the walking ::) ::)
On the bright side - gotta like a $5 honor box
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So I go with Jeff yesterday to the Goat. Keith, I loved it. Jeff was not so happy with the wet/non-fast conditions
of the fairways. Fairways were ok by me. Where the Goat really shines is the greens. Tiny in size, big in slope/tilt
Probably running at 4/5 anything more would be unplayable!
Played by all of the commissioner's rules with the exception of #3 (carts were not available).
Loved the honor's box, $5 for all day golf.
Jeff, thanks for putting up with me.
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Chuck
Was Jeff's detailed analysis of the Goat pretty spot on?
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I will keep the 16, 23 and 30 open and await your decree. I assume that the commissioner would rule by decree?
P.S. can we take trolleys to carry the beer?
I'm interested. Are there any good courses in the area to be add ons for the trip ?
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''Brian, Josh, myself, and many others have suggested that we grew up playing courses very similar to this and Goat Hill isn’t all that unique to us. Many have suggested that this looks like a fun place to play, but only Ben and Jeff and maybe one or two others have suggested they’d go well out of their way to play it. Jeff, Ben, would you be willing to discuss the courses you grew up on? I know Ben grew up playing at his parents’ club, which I doubt looks much like Goat Hill. Jeff, where did you learn the game? I suspect Goat Hill might be much more unique to your background than it is to mine, and perhaps that’s why courses like it occupy such a high ground in your eyes. I’d be happy to post some photos of my childhood courses if I get back to them this year. I think anyone who loves The Goat would be likely to find those courses similarly charming. While there’s endless space in my heart for courses like this, there’s frankly very little space for them in my travel itineraries these days. I’d happily stop in if I was on the island, but I doubt I’d take the ferry solely to visit.''
Jason,
Were the courses you played built on sand? I grew up at a modest club, and many of my friends didn't that I caddied with. I also started at 12 and saved up enough money to buy my own car at 16, did you? We played all the courses in the city. Ottawa Park Golf course in Toledo,OH was claimed to have started in 1894 says SP Jermain. It was the first to host the Pub links Championship. We used to play emergency rounds there all the time. A few courses in the area got firm when the clay dried out after a couple weeks of no rain, but nothing to the extent that Jeff described. I love your admiration for ''Main Street'' one minute then you claim ''Trolley's'' look tacky. Jeff also tried to explain to you his reasons in about 3 separate occasions which you failed to address, but instead turned it into a diatribe of Golf in America and roots.
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I will keep the 16, 23 and 30 open and await your decree. I assume that the commissioner would rule by decree?
P.S. can we take trolleys to carry the beer?
I'm interested. Are there any good courses in the area to be add ons for the trip ?
hillarious! gotta be on the shortlist for post of the year
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I can't wait to play Goat Hill in a 17-some with all of us tooling around in Keith's super sweet Chevy Spark! Who needs to walk, trolley or use a cart when you've got a Spark!
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Chuck, I am glad that you enjoyed yourself. Anyone that could play that course for 5$, with Jeff, and not have fun is missing the point.
I do have a question though. Besides, Jeff, you probably live closest to The Goat on this board. It seems like this weekend was your first ever play there. Why do you think that is?
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cause he has access at NGLA and lives down the street from Indian Island (a pretty darn good underrated Course) where he pays $17 ;D ;D
after all The Goat is a HIDDEN ;) gem
remember I never played St. George's until I played it with you, and I've gotten around a bit (and NO I am not comparing the Goat to St. Georges ;D ;D)
and he got off season wet Goat(sounds like something you should take antibiotics for) and had to suffer me walking and carrying (suprised I didn't incur any whine fines)
and definitely didn't get the "big game" goat experience our crew usually provides (and leaves a lot of people shaking their heads-ask Greg Gauvin ;) ;D and Tim Garvin ;))
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Jeff, I have no doubt that Chuck has other options, I was just interested in why locals do not go to The Goat. I know people who have lived in North Sea their entire lives and have never played The Goat. I think they are missing out on a unique experience and I am interested why?
As for St George's, it is on the other side of the canal, please don't lead people on this board to believe that it was a small feat to get you there! ;D ;D ;D
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Most locals don't appreciate the Goat
The few that like it play there because it's generally empty
There are/were a lot of good public options on the north fork and just west,Tallgrass, LI National (now private), Calverton Links (fate TBD),Cherry Creek (2 courses) Island's End, Great Rock (fate TBD), Pine Hills, Old Vine, Swan Lake,and about a half dozen others in an area without a lot of population.
and many of those are the same price as The Goat for a rider-and the ferry ride is bit longer from the North Fork ;D (12 minutes vs. 5)
If you're not a pretty good player, the Goat is awfully hard because you're generally hitting out of a tight, bare or cuppy lie, and missing your spot by 10 yards can result in a 50 yard different outcome.
Also,even though it's relatively short, it's a much harder course if you're a short hitter as if you can't get over the hills 230-260 out you lose a lot of roll and your second is exponentially harder.
The Goat is the ultimate test of would you choose interesting fun golf with poor conditioning over medioce architecture(Cherry Creek) with better conditioning.
We all have our limits in this area, and yesterday the moistness of the "turf" yesterday tested my limits.
I also don't enjoy The Goat as much in a typically wet May when the weeds/approaches are being allowed to grow long(as in 2 inches) so that there might be some grass there come August-
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Keith: what Jeff said.
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BCowan: yes
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I like the logo.
(http://shelterislandcountryclub.com/user_images/sicc-logo-2.png)
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Im in However I will have to ask for a dispensation on rule #4 having taken the pledge. 7 pages is almost merionesque! speaking of which
I was reading in an old brooklyn eagle how Flynn and MacDonald were looking at property on the other side of west neck road to build another 18
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I like the logo.
(http://shelterislandcountryclub.com/user_images/sicc-logo-2.png)
The logo depicts an actual green-easy pin that day
Dave,
you're good-somebody has to drive us back to the ferry......
Remind me to tell you about my last ride to the last ferry next time i see you ;)
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Looking at the overhead of Goat Hill, is that the range surrounded by forest?
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Looking at the overhead of Goat Hill, is that the range surrounded by forest?
It is...circa 2000ish
Have never been there-seriously
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I will keep the 16, 23 and 30 open and await your decree. I assume that the commissioner would rule by decree?
P.S. can we take trolleys to carry the beer?
I'm interested. Are there any good courses in the area to be add ons for the trip ?
Didn't GolfNow.com have that "East End Special" where you could play NGLA/Shinnecock/Goat Hill for $99? Does anybody know if that is still going on?
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Didn't GolfNow.com have that "East End Special" where you could play NGLA/Shinnecock/Goat Hill for $99? Does anybody know if that is still going on?
Yes. Just booked it. Act quickly-the winter rate is $79 for the three.
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Didn't GolfNow.com have that "East End Special" where you could play NGLA/Shinnecock/Goat Hill for $99? Does anybody know if that is still going on?
Yes. Just booked it. Act quickly-the winter rate is $79 for the three.
Michael-Thanks for the heads up. That includes the lobster lunch at NGLA right?
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On the '76 earliest courses in the US' thread Jim Kennedy has just posted several articles from late 1895 mentioning a 9 hole course about to be laid out on a hilly part of Shelter Island. Does anybody know if that is what became the Goat? or is it the beginnings of Gardiners Bay or something else altogether?
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On the '76 earliest courses in the US' thread Jim Kennedy has just posted several articles from late 1895 mentioning a 9 hole course about to be laid out on a hilly part of Shelter Island. Does anybody know if that is what became the Goat? or is it the beginnings of Gardiners Bay or something else altogether?
Chris-that's gotta be The Goat
for some reason their website say 1901, but I've seen newspaper accounts of 1897-hauling the clubhouse up on logs
The Goat is in an area called The Heights, much hillier and higher than the Gardiner's Bay area, though GB has plenty of undulation.
Sounds like Strath decribes it perfectly ;)
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Thee Goat has such a cool logo... That just adds to the lure......
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The Goat - 1902
http://tinyurl.com/nwvxnzt
They even managed to keep the gazebo.
I came across an article that has the Pro in the photo, Laing, as the person responsible for laying-out the course (when Pros did such things ;D )
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The Goat - 1902
http://tinyurl.com/nwvxnzt
They even managed to keep the gazebo.
I came across an article that has the Pro in the photo, Laing, as the person responsible for laying-out the course (when Pros did such things ;D )
Knew it was my kind've place.
Ping-Pong Committee, baseball committee ;D ;D
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Some updates on thee Goat?
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Some updates on thee Goat?
Sadly, the "East End Special" is no longer available.
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Some updates on thee Goat?
Sadly, the "East End Special" is no longer available.
Howard, ''East End Special'' was just a joke...
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played there Monday
18 in a foursome followed by two emergency 9's ;)
Goat always best when no one tries to do anything ;) ;D ;D
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''Have a new super-which scares me Roll Eyes-Goat always best when no one tries to do anything ''
I will say a prayer, that is really serious. I hope the cat is from across the pond...
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I'm interested in GCA Goat day but only if someone is willing to tow me across the water on water skis so I can receive those extra strokes.....
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Did you win the Goat Invitational this year? Where there any carts damaged this year ;D ;D
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Did you win the Goat Invitational this year? Where there any carts damaged this year ;D ;D
No-long victory drought in Goat Open.
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Look what showed up unexpectedly in my mailbox yesterday evening.
(http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag410/hooverbd/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-06/D4630751-6C63-44F1-949A-78E2C7C1E91C_zpsnejcuwcp.jpg) (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/hooverbd/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-06/D4630751-6C63-44F1-949A-78E2C7C1E91C_zpsnejcuwcp.jpg.html)
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Never thought I'd see those two logos together ;D
Goat is so grassy this year it's unplayable ::) ::) ::)
can't get a tee long enough in the tall grass and could lose a ball on front of a green
I'm sure it looks good from a chopper though...
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Jeepers...I don't recall seeing these pix before. Jeff....you reckon Woodhall is a rinse n' repeater on the back nine, but this isn't?
Stumped in Worcestershire.
Ciao
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Jeepers...I don't recall seeing these pix before. Jeff....you reckon Woodhall is a rinse n' repeater on the back nine, but this isn't?
Stumped in Worcestershire.
Ciao
I literally just busted out laughing.
The Goat and Woodhall.... in the same sentence. ;D ;D ;D
May have something to do with expectations...
and to be fair, we were playing Woodhall in March
Actually, you've described the 9 holes at The Goat perfectly
Rinse(in a good way)...and repeat
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I happened upon this Shelter Island GC photo and thought it needed a home somewhere on GCA.
atb
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D97mxgUXUAAZZDc.jpg)
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After giving this thread a read I figured I should take the ferry over one day to see what this place is all about. I figured since I live only 15 minutes from the north ferry worst comes to worst I can go to sunset beach for an afternoon. This course was a blast. I loved the par threes, especially #4, where else can you play a hole like that on an empty course for less than $20? I’ve now played it 4x this summer and learned something new each time. Last time I was there I grabbed a pencil from the scorecard jar in the pro shop and realized it was a pencil from the Bridge wonder who that was from. ;)
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/B2JUhEDK3-0eZbFXJZs3Vsz1BRq_70fVq8gKF2IXweaVcUkuPbVJr9Wn4vIlhomTElVZfwzhKUVzUUqkV6mpnesaGMGYK7KQxbcsVFvGggDLtiQhKiGvq1NXjATOBJ1VtNkbC-7JnUEAt5JDRku8_qb4F529Nx8opotgCG7DqaOwK3aYVuFXf29KGuM4HnBILe74Tzt1zgfz3qsNZxaNKx3DQGzwqFmnRYcue2uc4D0qnIvjb3eEWwhINL3NaptB1GmOm2JEY4GdWd3efg6CupREyFgGfiKSIzHpEUsCKtzYTLqQt_CIHYLCPltcdqclN2e_F5FTSnZ8_THPLmlcEm4qvvyCU8KV0sycmeO8xyQeljjVqzy1F358Lv9FJDzjcWMF-BMMD1a7DaAKnlcqH995yQ8uxw9-UvkfkRDCrUwkl8ctFiBLT4Mln65QliA6Ur_Dy6478VgueQlVbweSLVhQtjlhEGUaMcHEiSSoZ7qYmyzvslhs_lIZ8TG_dV4y4DFM1XwRCHhBbjC9_HgZywdzXHZNq4Aghk5Gt-usIY-OcRGG55d3m3IhHXYfBrX3wRBfMt1Q_7snVeawOfAZed1QRopfbcEol6PHurhN49SY8dprJWeBZthII1L-airvlkIwGJLfVayakw5W7iNXIQbqEBPPEchO512ihrKWO8QP1k97A3TpmWk=w1124-h843-no)
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sMqKxpCRERzN2boFb93xflLPu9tbi3dzNHBCDaPmxWKmXWy73C9e73V6FLCbLyQ5zdLAGy7HdhuRRAM2AMOzZjO_ihhGhg6NvYWU4muVBYFUGhGX6mDBnGSpG8lUxKm_5AZEv9D4K1WnPbNXStbIXcmyvwk_FlUsKI9tiDmt-nGinR-km-ybMRPDeUlL7tsv-nfycPj3E2RWOe3vPVnt_PIMQ0GQIRKAN2_CPkz6Cd53uh9h0kNwPm1lzdUgGrIPxYXQPe8VO6uOkyEkF3p13Bpe1XA2tUi8LVBZEMTRuXDsSbRQLBhrmZFFpMlfJPhhp-P_YUzsdUvmKPCbu6DsVVZ8TvNwAgLR9_E1NJAA6EKyVqwJu-tx_wfwNA4HFrV6axEZq9_PHtXu1XFgA6Pg4mV-y9Y2DIAhj1Sg9DAfKRnEoxVnRbbFQoNi8L5uk8mVWiyNJ7lLd5N2pRg3PerK9gJljok63avDriCSTghyPHuJYNRJWwHAvpmopkEXOkNSl7M4pNlzPqqJyMiz0gHh2ZISg07Jxhz-8iZnoUhkBo0fDe83Asb22YW1krIy1_MU5kN5X3lYYzm96j2V2c2Wu_5QH7iHhs-rtVEkwlP0Y0Uq2c_Pb8jStT2wANeuB-gyx-8zZWR14Z2HvU9Q4lEy2o-YMS7OPSGdrUx4a-w4xZQWbdlzyfKV8tA=w1124-h843-no)
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/upocKdl4JBmmiG0B9mxdf_NgOo85JYuwCJIYv0jexfXLCeLBnHpW0E2tlCXdvaOaN_PHO9YWYylMvkkErgu_X4U6jngqey9kk4DEpIiKrgP0JUv1Y3yTG2k5jWmTzkgTSOcL7acR1YGS25z_A80E6pvbQ_1ES1jetB1LuouB5NfEib3wYA5nKHlv8wPs1wODScOG0GFP5XLm8cmJ2QM123_RQ0H-6R4R5D6fE8EdhOI7_9zI9VQhONZmAOCbQsLMsSaIaqsvVwS3xRwvYi43QFXMzrXKnrmne3x2Z-NwUsIaMNLH6uAhTFnYki51BelFObHszb_MKXm80aZ1zlFND2Lz96w3WSErixUN3VI3U23plXZlcN6JfBjTjXZ8jjub2916mRBwBySiSXwsGuRwU0_1CDBJ-T-UKpUSr26kBcoCexcOL_KEMNrMr44-NoXV1_Q8z_jdsT6zyjN9-WUyiEutGyNYRl4LhMn5UwtItouK5VhXJzguAldkQde28nsXBed7alKVwb3wkUCwCtMRbaRHwN_TpxyWlrTDZBqzJNRLqscI3SMMRFDajd60AN8zMR_glKXwgjoWcnlyujrmmH9oOJNUFoUkwBiZodTBOtSgDSMrNppFLvg_wztn-abCodL-qA58qCtu7lca_bw5elQXlhevYuF3CpyhLTqE2PKDx0tHVOLe03Y=w633-h843-no)
Above scorecard from back in the day-not sure from what decade.
Was given to me last night on a drop in visit returning home from Gardiner's Bay who was co hosting Met PGA Pro-Pro with The Bridge
A nice article about this year's Goat Open that appeared in the Shelter Island Reporter (credit to Mary Fran Gleason)
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https://www.golf.com/news/columns/2019/08/28/bamberger-7-best-things-golf-shelter-island/ (https://www.golf.com/news/columns/2019/08/28/bamberger-7-best-things-golf-shelter-island/)
as posted on Tommy's thread
Could this be a a preview of post Corona golf?
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I tried looking up Goat Hills website to see if they are open right now and it appears the website is no longer active. Wonder what that is about since the website used to have the information for the restaurant there as well.