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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2011, 04:48:32 PM »
Paul - Not a lot you can do about losing 18 though if that train chugs through.
The new 17th green site would change a lot with the train crossing.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Paul_Turner

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2011, 05:09:33 PM »
Paul - Not a lot you can do about losing 18 though if that train chugs through.
The new 17th green site would change a lot with the train crossing.

Adrian

Yes obviously re the 18th.  I don't think any of the solutions so far have come up with a replacement hole that would be as satisfactory.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2011, 05:14:29 PM »
Paul

Yes, 5 and 6 would be improved with trees being taken out.  I wouldn't be surprised if the 6th green is not Colt, bt its still good. I think the 8th would too on top of the spur you mention.  I think 9 is a dead duck and won't be very good regardless - I don't like the incline of the hole at all.  15 seems a bit dull looking from the tee.  I always thought a cross bunker would do there some 30 yards short of the green.  17 bends the wrong the way making it dangerous and not using the green as well as it could.  You are right, the 18th is a bit of a blow to lose even though the drive zone is messed up a bit with a poorly placed bunker. The green bunkering is very well done.  

There is no question in terms of the ambience of WHGC that it would be finished if a train went through the middle.  Nothing could make up for that.

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 05:17:10 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2011, 05:19:28 PM »
Paul - I pretty much agree, the dissection would be negative for WH. Time would make (MY) extended 17th a better hole, 18 is recreating the approach but I tend to agree its a loss and in general its a case of just preserving as much as possible.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

James Boon

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2011, 09:14:25 AM »
Adrian,

The revisions you have described sound a little like my initial lunchtime sketch before the one I posted. I went away from it because though I dont mind a par 3 to finish, or playing over tee shot over a green, I figured both together was a bit tricky and tried to come up with something else from the amatuer designers point of view.

From Sean's initial fear about the impact on the club, I think we have all managed to prove that there is some scope for retaining WHGC and its Colt heritage in some form, and its not a total death of the club. Obviously the matter of compensation, programme of both the HS2 and clubs works, keeping a short version of the course open during the works, and also any buffer zone along the tracks or impact of the construction are also an issue, as is the visual and sound impact of the line, all are big factors. But as I said, there is potential for some kind of new routing and so the club wouldn't have to move or die?

To be honest, I love the fact that Ben had a crack at this (promting me and Matt to have a go) and has at several other courses in the past. Sure at times they are a 2D exercise and we all recognise that golf course design is not as simple as that, but they are fun and should be encouraged. We can't spend all our time arguing of who designed M****n, the use of carts or looking at Natalie Gulbis videos... ;)

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell (Notts), Brora, Aberdovey, Royal St Davids, Woodhall Spa, Broadstone, Parkstone, Cleeve, Painswick, Minchinhampton, Hoylake

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Paul_Turner

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2011, 07:23:17 AM »
Looks like the "powers that be" didn't even consult the club and just sprung the new route on them.  Typical government thuggery!

http://www.thisislichfield.co.uk/news/High-speed-rail-link-destroy-village-golf-club-s-little-community/article-3121161-detail/article.html
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2011, 09:27:20 AM »
I remember a number of clubs losing land to the M60 (as it now is) when it was built around Manchester. None is better than it was before.
The Hazel Grove by-pass was threatened from pre-War and Hazel Grove abandoned tracts of its MacKenzie course, having new holes built by Tom MacAuley. It is a horrid mix of ancient and modern. The by-pass has since been cancelled - what an unnecessary loss of good MacKenzie! Conwy lost some of its best holes to the A55 tunnel under the Conwy Estuary. The replacement holes might be tough (too tough) but they are not nice holes.

From the Conwy experience I would say that the disruption to the course will extend well beyond the confines of the railway. Just look at any road building site and you will see it extended far beyond the resultant road while construction is taking place.

But I also have a worry about Health and Safety - would you be allowed holes parallel to the line. What if....? Or even a fairway approaching a green at right angles to the railway. What if someone thins a ball out of a bunker and it drops over the fence right into the path of....? Won't there have to be quite a safety margin to either side of the line's fences? What has happened in other countries where new high-speed lines have been built? France, Germany, Spain?

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2011, 07:41:54 PM »

 It is a horrid mix of ancient and modern.

I agree.

Did you ever play the old 17th?

« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 01:49:25 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

James Edwards

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2011, 06:17:15 PM »
Fascinating Thread and excellent first draft/concept ideas for the development at WHGC.

My design company along with one other have been competing for this job for a few months now and are both awaiting the decision from the management/development committee for ongoing architectural works.  We have both visited the site on at least two occasions which Im aware of and have both presented final proposals before Christmas to the development committee.

Clearly we are both in a sensitive, 'need to know' situation at present, so can't disclose anything on this forum, but will be sure to let you all know what the outcomes are as and when they are decided.

Right now, we are all teaming together to get the best possible outcome for WHGC and are looking at similar case studies in various places over the UK which had this type of disruption.

In the meantime, GOOD to be back - long time since ive posted here, and thats thanks to Mr. Turner with whom I have been corresponding with on this subject for a few months now.  Many Thanks Paul for all your help over that time.

James Edwards
@EDI__ADI

Neil_Crafter

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2011, 06:15:51 AM »
I have been following this thread with interest. I take Mark R's comments on safety as being some of the most crucial. As it is a high speed train I can only imagine what carnage a golf ball strike would do on a train travelling at 300km/h plus. Could be catastrophic. So I can imagine the rail authorities wanting a significant setback for golf holes from the rail alignment, plus the likelihood of 30m mesh fencing along adjacent golf holes. I can only imagine the actual corridor needed will be much greater than the corridor shown on the sketch plans that people have prepared for this thread. Just my thoughts. Hope I'm wrong but I think the impacts on the course will be even worse than first thought.

Paul_Turner

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2011, 06:33:16 AM »
Neil

I don't know that a high speed train would be affected more by a golf ball than an ordinary train?  And of course there are lots of train tracks next to golf courses in the UK.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Eric Smith

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What's the latest with the high speed train?

Sean_A

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Eric

The consultation period runs until the end of July.  For those interested in making comments see http://highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/

The club raises some good arguments, but not nearly enough to have much of an impact if you ask me.  They need to get much more stuck in with proper planning objections rather than worrying about political objections.

http://www.whittingtonheathgc.co.uk/Content.aspx?Menuid=73

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Eric Smith

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Thanks Sean. I ended up reading a bit more about the HS2 after posting my question. I'd certainly love to play WH asap knowing it may not be around one of these days, at least in its current form.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 12:15:07 PM by Eric Smith »

Paul_Turner

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2012, 10:08:51 AM »
No surprise that the government OK'd the project.  On very weak economic and "CO2" grounds in my view.

Go see Whittington Heath before it's spoiled.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2012, 03:34:40 AM »
No surprise that the government OK'd the project.  On very weak economic and "CO2" grounds in my view.

Go see Whittington Heath before it's spoiled.

Paul

This decision was never in doubt once both parties were on board.  

Even though it has meant I haven't played WH in a few years it is good to know the club isn't panicking by offering cheap rates (unless you bring 4 guys to the table)/county cards/memberships.  Some think memberships in the future could be very reasonable.  Reasonable enough to join in a few years (its hard to imagine many people paying a joining fee now), keep social membership at the old club and then ride out WH until the end and quit.  

Does anybody know what this Heathland Course is about?  

On a more positive note, if three more folks are interested in playing WH on a Friday in the next few months give me a shout.  Its £140 for 4 including some sort of meal. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 03:36:17 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Mark Pearce

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2012, 04:20:14 AM »
Sean,

That sounds like something I could fit in with a trip to visit my mum, so yes, I'm interested.

Mark

Andrew Mitchell

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2012, 09:25:06 AM »
Sean

I would be interested in that assuming the dates fit.

2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

James Boon

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2012, 05:24:03 PM »
Sean,

If I can get the time off for a Friday, then I'd certainly be interested in seeing Whittington Heath, as its really not that far from me! I can then get to see how rubbish my sketch design was...  ::)

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell (Notts), Brora, Aberdovey, Royal St Davids, Woodhall Spa, Broadstone, Parkstone, Cleeve, Painswick, Minchinhampton, Hoylake

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Mat Poade

Visited the WHGC website recently. Seems they are planning for life after the HS2
http://www.whittingtonheathgc.co.uk/Content.aspx?Menuid=73

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2019, 01:08:38 PM »
A few years on and work at Whittington Heath has been proceeding apace. The new holes are planned to be in play next year.


whgc-master-plan by duncan cheslett, on Flickr









https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/whittington-heath-project-to-bring-back-golden-age-look




Yet today HS2 is all over the news for another reason - it may be cancelled! In fact, I suspect it almost certainly WILL be cancelled!


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/21/hs2-review-launched-over-whether-rail-project-should-proceed


So what happens at Whittington Heath if no railway dissects the course after all? Presumably the land occupied by the old holes is now owned by HS2, and ultimately by the government. Of what use or value is that land other than for golf?


Could Whittington Heath GC maybe lease the land back at a favourable rate and reincorporate the holes as a third nine? Or a par 3 course?


My Cavendish compadre Jonathan Gaunt must be rubbing his hands...   :D
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 01:52:09 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2019, 05:55:56 AM »
Duncan

I asked what would happen if the rail line was nixed.  The guys said they expect the changes will go ahead because a new house is being built as we speak and the land in question is will not be owned by the club. Although, they didn't know when the land would be officially turned over to the government because the club is obviously still using that land.  I found it difficult to get a sense of the new holes on the old land as a few slash across existing holes to old greens.  The one thing I thought would be very odd is the new five holes are on farm land...treeless.  The old holes still have lots of trees.  How are the two to be married in a way which doesn't seem odd. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2019, 06:35:58 AM »
Sean,


They are well past the point of no return on building the new clubhouse and new holes. The question is about what happens to the land compulsorily purchased by HS2 if the line is nixed.


When exactly the same thing happened at Hazel Grove GC in the 90s the club continued to maintain some of the old Dr Mac holes as practice areas while the rest were reclaimed by nature.

Sean_A

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2019, 07:17:22 AM »
Duncan

I don't think there will be much left to consider maintaining as holes which fit in anyway with the new design because some greens are being used for new corridor holes. I spose the current 7th hole could be saved. Off hand I can't think of another hole which will be left intact.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: HS2 To Sever WHITTINGTON HEATH In 2: A New Routing Needed - Take Part
« Reply #74 on: October 04, 2023, 05:02:32 PM »
With news of the cancellation of the northern leg of HS2, what does this mean for WH? Was all the redesign and expense a waste or will HS2 still cut through WH as was planned?

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