Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on January 17, 2011, 05:34:45 PM
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Here is a brief article about the proposed route of the new high speed train linking London with Brum, Manchester and Leeds. After much wrangling, the second proposed route will still kill the course, but Litchfield and the Whittington village get a break. This would be a sad loss for Colt fans. Despite the club keeping Whittington Heath in a ridiculously narrow condition with strangling rough, the course is one of the more clever designs I have come across and should be one of those jewels that people speak of in hushed tones - its that good.
http://www.thisislichfield.co.uk/news/New-HS2-route-better-city-golfers/article-3068387-detail/article.html (http://www.thisislichfield.co.uk/news/New-HS2-route-better-city-golfers/article-3068387-detail/article.html)
Ciao
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This one big subject.
A train line through the course will"kill" it?
Sadly can't preserve everything and thats a major need for the nation.
EDIT Apologies I haven't played it I was thinking of Luffenham Heath. Still doesn't change my view of the politics and yes it's a shame.
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Tony
Unfortunately, I think the line is going to run through the property at a bit of angle right thru the house and what looks to be the dead middle of the property. At the very least hole #s 6,8,9 & 18 are toast and I suspect 2, 3, 7, 10 are in trouble. I can't see where in the immediate area they can rebuild the course easily because of roads, Whittington Barracks and mucky fields.
I don't know what the need is for the nation nor have I researched what the alternatives are to this proposal. I can see in general the area is quite badly blighted by the M6 toll road and the M6 isn't far away - so in a way it makes sense to develop an already mucked up area. In any case, I wasn't talking about that aspect, just that Whittington strikes me as quite an unusual course and a pity to lose. Mind you, with the current regime in place Whittington is half lost already.
Ciao
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Sean,
I will need to make an effort to get there before they wreck it then!
I only know of one other similar example. When the M1 Motorway was extending north (when was that, the 50s or 60s I think?), it cut Erewash Valley GC (just down the road from me) in half. The holes on one side of the motorway were modified to become a short par 3 course and practice area, while the other side (with some new land I suspect) had 18 holes cramped in. Not a bad course but very crowded, and the motorway noise is a bit off putting.
Cheers,
James
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That would be a real shame...it's a cool course. The course would be a gonna... farmland isn't much of a replacement for heath.
I don't believe it has been changed much from Colt's design. I know M Hawtree worked on it but I think it was mainly bunker work and perhaps one new green?
Perhaps they should fully restore the heath and get SSI designation!
England is a crowded country, it needs more open space, not less.
Sean
Where's the new map? I can only find the one where it just misses the course.
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Paul
http://www.michael.fabricant.mp.co.uk/HS2_Middle_Map.pdf
Ciao
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Sean,
From the latest plan you link to it looks like the impact on the course would look something like this...
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/Misc/WhittingtonHeath.jpg)
The orange is the railway line with the white the approximate bottom of the embankment. So it looks like th 9th and the clubhouse are both gone but the bulk of Colt's course would still be there, assuming construction traffic wouldn't rip it all up.
Assuming the club would receive a degree of compensation, it looks to me like there is the possibility of keeping the bulk of the course, building a new house and then rerouting with a few new holes? They would also need to build at least one extra tunnel under the line, but the real trick would be to come up with a routing that flows and works with what they've already got?
I've not played there, but you have Sean, what do you think?
Cheers,
James
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Boony
That seems like a better look than the official map. The problem is the rail going straight thru the middle making the some of the edge of property holes somewhat difficult to use. Maybe if some holes were reversed it could work on the existing property if the the two stands of wood (top left and bottom left - assuming they aren't WHGC property now - and the removal of trees) can be purchased, but returning 9s would be a serious problem. It would be interesting to see what an archie could come up with keeping in mind some of the better holes such as 3, 4, 7, 12, 13, 14 & 16. #18 and the 6th green are good as well, but I can't see how they can be saved. Anybody on the site want to have a go? You never know, maybe there is a job just waiting for you!
Ciao
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Whittington Heath - revised layout proposal 1
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/WhittingtonHeath-proposed.jpg)
Assuming the club is given additional land by the barracks for a new clubhouse and driving range/practice area outside the heath.
This is a initial proposed layout, based on Sean's comments that the better holes 3,4,7,12,13,14,16 are retained. It is to start from the original first hole, then a new 2nd hole from the existing 5th tee to a new green which straightens the hole then thro a tunnel under HS2. The new 3rd is the existing 7th then onto the 15th tee to a new green creating a new short par 4 playing as the 4th hole. The new 5th is to the 16th green but from a new tee. The 6th is the existing 14th, the new 7th - existing 12th, the new 8th - existing 13th and finally the new 9th from the existing 17th tee to a new green on the existing 18th fairway.
Back nine starts from a new tee alongside the existing 17th green (new practice green for the 10th tee) to the existing 11th green.
The new 11th is the existing 8th. The new 12th is on the existing 10th hole but plays the opposite way. Then cross HS2 to a new tee which plays to the existing 2nd green playing as the new 13th hole. The new 14th is the existing 3rd. Holes 15 and 16 are new holes - a short par 4 then a medium/long par 4. The 17th is the existing 4th hole and then finishing off from the existing 2nd tee to a green just by the existing 18th green as a long par 4 finish like the current one.
I have not been there - this is just a feasible layout whether a full 18 can fit on site.
Cheers
Ben
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Ben
Well done. Apart from a few awkward walks and the more than one tunnel I envisioned, the routing may just work. Now, lets assume the Barracks aren't going to give up their playing field for a ne WGGC clubhouse. What can you make of the routing then? I didn't realize the one you did would be so cramped. If it helps any, the land from the house drops down a fair amount to the current 10th green and 9th tee. The 18th comes back up tis incline. The slope is more gentle heading toward A51 cutting through the 8th green and more or less the middle of 11, 12, 13 14 and 16.
This is probably a good little exercise for all the wanna be archies on this board and maybe even some seasoned ones.
Ciao
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Ben
Well done. Apart from a few awkward walks and the more than one tunnel I envisioned, the routing may just work. Now, lets assume the Barracks aren't going to give up their playing field for a ne WGGC clubhouse. What can you make of the routing then? I didn't realize the one you did would be so cramped. If it helps any, the land from the house drops down a fair amount to the current 10th green and 9th tee. The 18th comes back up tis incline. The slope is more gentle heading toward A51 cutting through the 8th green and more or less the middle of 11, 12, 13 14 and 16.
This is probably a good little exercise for all the wanna be archies on this board and maybe even some seasoned ones.
Ciao
Sean,
Thanks for reply. I admit its quite a good start. It is common that the less land that is available the more straight the holes are. The aim is to get a 18 hole course to fit in the heathland that is left/available.
The clubhouse can be built on the proposed 18th green and a shorter 18th is built instead if the barracks don't give their land. Anyway the Government owns that land and it can give it to the club as compensation for the loss of land by HS2!.
Google Earth gives basic levels across the golf course - I assumed that the proposed 2nd is downhill and the proposed 16th is uphill.
Northants County has a few walks in between some holes it shouldnt be a problem. Also it will be tricky to create a layout with only 1 crossing - 2 is better not just for golfers but also greenkeeper access as well.
Cheers
Ben
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Ben
Just for the heck of it, assume the club is in debt and wants to take a chunk of their money to pay it off - these are austere times ya know. So, the house and lot must go on the current property. It would also be nice to have a practive ground fairly close to the house or at least have car access to it.
I like what you did on the proposed 5th legging the hole right rather than the current 17th legging left. I hate the tee shot as it is now because one is aiming toward a vey busy road. Sure its a wild shot to hit the road, but with these flat bellies wanting to play the big draw its an issue. I don't like the walk after #2 - it cruises past two holes. Is there anyway to lengthen it and bring the green closer to the tunnel. The 16th looks to be a short, blind par 4, but it might be possible to shorten it more. That will be a nasty climb out of a deep hollow to the 17th tee, but I agree, that hoolow has to be used somehow. It may serve better to play over/along it to a green on its precipice. The current 6th plays over/around that deep hollow. Shit, you could even get fancy and create a double green with #s 2 and 15 by extending them both a bit.
One potential problem is the par 3s. They seem to be fairly close in yardage. The current set is quite good with a bit more variety in the long 15th. Any solutions? I would think adding one or two for a total of 5 or 6 may go a long way to easing crowding.
Ciao
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What the hell, there goes my lunch break!
Sean, Ben,
Here is my stab at it, coming from Sean's more economically sensitive point of view:
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/Misc/WhittingtonHeathsketch.jpg)
5 New greens, 1 realigned
4 new tees
Old 18th fairway used as small practice area, accesses under proposed road bridge or with its own CP at far end.
Only one bridge
- 6 could possibly reuse the existing 6th tees?
- As a shortish par 4, players walking to the 18th are in the fireling line a bit...
- 8 will reuse the current 10th green if possible, or at least realign it somehow
- 9 could possibly have a new tee further back?
- 16 might need a new tee, but I'm assuming they could reuse the existing 10th?
- 17th a totally new par 3 (I seem to have sketched a Redan a'like)
- 18th a totally new long 4 / short 5 (complete with Colt homage diagonal bunkers ;) )
That was quite good fun! I'm off to do some real work, so feel free to shoot me down! :D
Cheers,
James
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James' design preserves a decent amount of the original design with short walks so it gets my vote so far.
I think the original 8th and 10th could be left unchanged (as 8th and 16th respectively), both have neat greens. Just put up with slightly longer walks.
But would the proposed par 3 17th be steeply up hill or perhaps blind? I remember the current 9th tee being pretty high up.
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James' design preserves a decent amount of the original design with short walks so it gets my vote so far.
I think the original 8th and 10th could be left unchanged (as 8th and 16th respectively), both have neat greens. Just put up with slightly longer walks.
But would the proposed par 3 17th be steeply up hill or perhaps blind? I remember the current 9th tee being pretty high up.
Paul,
I agree with the above re: James' layout apart from that the course is now under 6000 yards possibly 5600 ish and one access route across the course will be an headache for the greenkeepers - it is more sensible to have 2 or even 3 in case one is closed.
The amount of compensation the club will get from the HS2 will be quite a lot - so it will be worth trying to create a similar course to what they have already got.
Boony
Why not switch your 16 around so that it becomes 9 plus create an access from 9th green to clubhouse + tweak the back nine a bit I think its still feasible. I am not sure about the location of your clubhouse being quite close to the railway! I would put it in the grey area in front of the 1st tee.
Cheers
Ben
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Ben
I don't think the yardage drop would be that much. If the current course is about 6500yds then I think James' would be about 6100-6200?
The 9th is lost 500yds, but James' new 18th is about the same. The current 18th is lost 450yds and James' 17th (200yds) is gained. About 50 yds loss at the 2nd and 6th. There rest are the same or close.
Agree you need more than one crossing. I can think of a Colt course that does have only one crossing over a railway, Beaconsfield. But it's much closer to the clubhouse than James has.
Surely this HS2 isn't a done deal. The country is broke and they've picked just about the only oasis of heath in the area to plough through.
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I thought I'd try a low-impact version, preserving as many of the current holes as I could. The 18th is a tough part; if you accept the 18th being a par-3, it's not tough, but if you insist on a two- or three-shot finisher, then you basically have to change everything.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/cohnhead72/routing.jpg)
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I've been involved in several "takings", albeit never a Bisector such as this, and the common denominator usually is two-fold - "use as much of the existing course as possible to 1) keep cost down and 2) keep disruption to play at a minimum. Remember, clubs still incurr staff and operating expenses even whrn a a course is closed. You have to keep paying the staff, taxes, ect. and revenues from the deminished level of play will also be down. Clubs will also see the compensation as a windfall they don't want to spend on course reconstruction. At a certain point, it may be cheaper to build a new 18 elsewhere and sell this land as the new 18 can be constructed and grown in while members play the "old" course and then just seamlessly "switch over".
The 1st couple of attempts, while interesting, IMHO, would cause too much disruption and cost too much. I was thinking of something along the lines to what Matt just illustrated. Look at trying to get one more par 4 on the front 9 side of the tracks and extending #15 to a short 4. Matt's 9 green would get killed by his 10th tee. A minimally invasive solution probably doesn't allow a returning 9 a d they may have to entertain 5 par 3's (even with 15 becoming a 4). Some length can be gotten by the extention of 17 (as Matt shows) along with add ing the ?abandoned? Par 3 between existing 10 and 11 to #11.
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This is very fine! I think Matt & Boony are on the right track with more par 3s to smooth out the routing. Although, I was hoping to eliminate the the uphill nature of the 9th - a hole I don't care for. I also would like to see the hollow for #5 better used than the current course does. Its a bit of a waste of an excellent feature.
Matt
#6 looks to have too much turn in the leg too early. It would be one of those layup with a iron and leave a wood home holes.
There are serious safety issues with 9 and 10. It might be an idea to push the 10th fairway over to meet the 17th fairway, but still use what looks like an abandoned green.
Boony
I think the course looks to be longer than 5600 yards! Maybe 6100ish from the back tees. This could threaten its status as a Open qualifier.
Why have you changed the tee for #6?
As Paul stated, #17 could be a very harsh par 3, but if a tee further up the bank could found this could be a very interesting hole.
#8 might be a bit of a bore, may need to trick that green up.
Tim
I am envisioning practically the entire course shut down during railway construction. There may be a way to play 9 holes or whatever. This will be a major project and the house would obviously be torn down.
Ciao
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Here are the two proposed routes for the HS2 with the course in the middle.
Blue is the original proposal which missed the course. Red is as currently proposed. The switch from Blue to Red was due to protests from residents in Lichfield (the large town on the map). I don't know if the club is fighting this proposal.
I wonder if the course could be saved with a combination of red/blue.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/Whittington_HS2-1.jpg?t=1295463686)
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This is very fine! I think Matt & Boony are on the right track with more par 3s to smooth out the routing. Although, I was hoping to eliminate the the uphill nature of the 9th - a hole I don't care for. I also would like to see the hollow for #5 better used than the current course does. Its a bit of a waste of an excellent feature.
Matt
#6 looks to have too much turn in the leg too early. It would be one of those layup with a iron and leave a wood home holes.
There are serious safety issues with 9 and 10. It might be an idea to push the 10th fairway over to meet the 17th fairway, but still use what looks like an abandoned green.
Boony
I think the course looks to be longer than 5600 yards! Maybe 6100ish from the back tees. This could threaten its status as a Open qualifier.
Why have you changed the tee for #6?
As Paul stated, #17 could be a very harsh par 3, but if a tee further up the bank could found this could be a very interesting hole.
#8 might be a bit of a bore, may need to trick that green up.
Tim
I am envisioning practically the entire course shut down during railway construction. There may be a way to play 9 holes or whatever. This will be a major project and the house would obviously be torn down.
Ciao
Sean,
I agree that Matt and Boony have made subtle changes but in most ways it is taking the course backwards like you said the club would lose its hosting rights to be a Open Regional qualifing course. I would use the money to make the weak holes stronger and create a similar or better course than the one it replaces.
There will be a timescale for the HS2 project which will give plenty of time for the club to modify the course and clubhouse. The new clubhouse and new holes/tees/greens would be built with the aim of not disrupting play on the current course and then the new clubhouse will be open and new course is in play by the time while HS2 is beng constructed.
The other potential issue is closeness of the holes to the railway - I know there is an outline of the line does that indicate the construction outline as opposed to a buffer zone from wayward golf balls. If there is a required buffer zone that would mean more land becomes unavailable.
The other thing on the website it says that it has a 'Heathland course' as well as 'Whittington Heath course'. Where would these heathland holes be?
Cheers
Ben
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Ben
I am envisioning an area much wider than the what is shown as a construction site plus access. I also think you could be right concerning the some play close to the tracks, but that may depend on how fast the train is allowed to run through this area.
Ciao
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Ben
I seriously doubt the course can be rebuilt before the track is laid, but I could be wrong. I am envisioning an area much wider than the what is shown as a construction site plus access. I also think you could be right concerning the some play close to the tracks, but that may depend on how fast the train is allowed to run through this area.
Ciao
Sean,
At Scarborough South Cliff course they built new holes in without disrupting play before they built a large roundabout in the middle of the course. Legally the owners of the land will have the right to modify without disruption before the land is handed over to the highways and the railways.
These new trains are envisaged to travel at 200mph throught the countryside! My mate has hit a HST 125 at a speed before off the 1st at Monifieth!!!
This is a very interesting exercise - well done Sean! - anyway the HS2 line is not finalised. In the end hopefully it will divert around the course maybe possibly as it could be a future SSSI or protected heathland.
Cheers
Ben
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Ben
The whole course was heathland. Then they planted trees and it's no so "heathy"now. There has been some clearing recently to restore heather I think mostly on the back 9.
There is still however, heather on nearly all the holes and so I'm hoping they will have a way to stop this on environmental grounds.
If the course had been restored to say "Walton Heath" style, then I think it might be in a stronger position as a "rare" environment to preserve.
The web claims that trains will fly through every 4-5 mins! I can't see the course ever recovering if this goes ahead, it'll always be diminished.
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Paul
I am guessing fewer houses are effected by the current proposed route which is a high priority given teh grief of HS1. While more public consultation needs to take place, I bet this route will stick (the gov't has already compromised) and that HS2 will go ahead.
Like you, I don't really see WHGC recovering from this blow very well. As I say more is the pity because this is a very cool course that unfortunately hasn't been well looked after.
Ciao
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Sean
The whole project seems to be questionable. Britain is so small, I don't think 400 km/hr trains are a good use of money.
I'm not sure the club was aware of this new route until it was sprung on them! And I still think the line could be shifted slightly to save the course and keep it away from Lichfield.
This sort of project pushes me towards the libertarian line on property rights and government interference.
I think I would have WH in my top 20 Colt's. How about you?
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Paul
I was very high on the course for a few years as I greatly admire the routing and some features. But the relentless rough and narrowing of fairways has gone some way to putting me off it. If ideally (or even reasonably) kept I would place Whittington very high on my Colt favourites and perhaps my favourite of the minor Colt courses I have played. I couldn't say about top 20 because I haven't played enough Colt's to have a proper top 20 - tee hee. That said, any true Colt Head should see WHGC because it does represent something a bit different for him. I suspect some of that may be down to what he inhereted. As you know, I think how Colt worked with non-original courses may have been his strongest suit.
Ciao
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Sean
To me the strength of the course is its subtlety and how it fits with the land. Just simple stuff like how that spur/ridge affects the 8th tee shot or how the 17th green is angled. I love the way most of the greens are either extensions of the fairways or are subtle developments of the natural bumpy land.
In the Colt oeuvre I think De Pan in Netherlands is its closest cousin. Pan is fairly flat on a macro scale but has perfect subtle bumps.
I hate that this HS2 may well wreck the course. And I do hope the club puts up a fight. But if this is inevitable and you had to draw a line through the course, I think this would be the "least" bad option. It destroys the fewest holes, and the 9th, while not a bad hole at all, is definitely a lesser hole at WHGC.
I wonder if the club owns the land or does the Army own it?
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Paul
I couldn't agree with you more. There are a lot of cool features when you take a good look. The little blind slit hollow to the right of the 14th green is great with that green moving so much from right to left. Both green complexes (includng the humps) for#s 12 & 16. That crazy 8 like shape green for #13 with the tight bunkering. Th deceptive angling of the 18th green. Then as if to remind us that Colt worked here the seemingly out of the blue patented Colt 11th hole. The hidden dip short of the 1st green which works well because the green moves front to back. There are many more examples of the subtlety, but you get the picture.
The club owns the land, but I don't know the boundaries.
Ciao
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Paul,
Whilst agreeing with much of what you write, high speed train lines are one of the very best ways this country can spend money on infrastructure and, as a resident of the North East, I can assure you that money does need to be spent on infrastructure.
Mark
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The thought that a golf club's needs could change the route of a multi billion pound project is laughable.
Having been a member of a club affected by a new bypass I can give the following observations;
The compensation paid turned out to be generous.
It took a long time to get the money, several years after the project finished.
Even a £5k advance to build a screen of trees was rejected, any club expenditure had to be made and claimed back in due course (with no guarantees it would be accepted.
Few clubs can afford to cover the costs up front of alterations and new courses without 100% guarantees on getting the correct level of compensation.
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Going back to the main subject
Here is my second proposal for a rejigged course. Taking into consideration of a larger buffer zone from the railway, only one access across the HS2 line and Sean's (acting as a hypothetical client!) request for 2 nine hole loops and keeping holes 3,4,7,12,13,14!
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/WhittingtonHeath-proposed02.jpg)
The opening 3 holes are as they are (downside is that first tee is quite a walk from new clubhouse but it is a compromise), the 2nd fairway is moved to the right to allow for room for the new 8th hole. The new 4th plays to the right of the existing 6th - the green is to be a recreation of the existing 6th green. The new 5th goes toward the 2nd tee. The 6th is the existing 5th but straightened into a short par 4. Hole 7 is the existing 4th. Hole 8 is new then back cross the HS2 line - to a new 9th hole based on the 10th at Pine Valley :) so that the front nine loop ends at the clubhouse.
Back nine starts on an extended 11th hole (the existing 10th fairway is turned into a practice ground) then the new 11th is the existing 8th. the new 12th plays to the existing 7th green from a different angle. New holes 13 to 18 are the existing 12 to 17.
Have fun
Cheers
Ben
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Ben
What do you tink of this plan compared to your first attempt? I like what you did to the 12th and the practice area. Your 6th may be problematic as the carry over that hollow is immense, but if it teh fairway extended much more back to the tee maybe thats okay. The 2nd too could be a problem. The course is a tight fit, but it works. What sort of yardage is it?
Ciao
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Ben
What do you tink of this plan compared to your first attempt? I like what you did to the 12th and the practice area. Your 6th may be problematic as the carry over that hollow is immense, but if it teh fairway extended much more back to the tee maybe thats okay. The 2nd too could be a problem. The course is a tight fit, but it works. What sort of yardage is it?
Ciao
Sean
Here is the estimated yardage of proposed layout 2. The other thing New hole 12 could be a short driveable par 4 instead of a long par 3 which will probably appeal more to both older and younger members.
Hole 01 – 540 yards par 5
Hole 02 – 370 yards par 4 (slightly shorter + new dogleg)
Hole 03 – 405 yards par 4
Hole 04 – 410 yards par 4
Hole 05 – 505 yards par 5
Hole 06 – 280 yards par 4
Hole 07 – 175 yards par 3
Hole 08 – 465 yards par 4
Hole 09 – 160 yards par 3
OUT – 3310 yards par 36
Hole 10 – 570 yards par 5
Hole 11 – 375 yards par 4
Hole 12 – 235 yards par 3 or 300 yard par 4?
Hole 13 – 410 yards par 4
Hole 14 – 145 yards par 3
Hole 15 – 450 yards par 4
Hole 16 – 210 yards par 3
Hole 17 – 395 yards par 4
Hole 18 – 425 yards par 4
IN – 3215 yards par 34 or 3280 par 35
TOTAL - 6525 yards par 70 or 6590 yards par 71
This layout is probably better than my first attempt in trying to make as few changes and retain what ‘Whittington Heath’ is all about. Also it works if there is a buffer zone created between the ‘playing areas’ and the railway track.
Cheers
Ben
PS. If the club need an architect to consult on the changes please let Boony or I know.
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(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/Misc/WhittingtonHeathsketch.jpg)
A few repsonses to comments on my sketch...
Sean,
- Yes 6th tee could remain I suspect. I don't know why I drew those?
- I liked the idea of pushing the 6th green beyond the track there as Matt did. I can see the tee problems which is perhaps why I didn't but it could be similar to the 6th green at Colt's Swinley?
- 8th green need tricking up? Are you saying that just because I don't draw a few bunkers around it? Not like you ;D
Paul,
- Yes, the 8th and 16th (current 10th) could be left as they are, I just figured for this quick sketch that swapping them would flow better.
- I'm not certain if the 17th would be too much uphill, but a little uphill wouldn't bother me. I'm thinking of Colt's 14th at Wentworth West?
Ben,
- The clubhouse could be moved away from the line, I probably sketched it too close.
- There is certainly some room to get returning nines but I'm not too bothered about that, maybe I play too much out and back links golf? I know the club have it at the moment, but if it was me I'd be advising they are better off keeping more of the original Colt design and compromising on the returning nines?
- Yes 2 or 3 bridges would be better. I was looking to see if the club could get bye with the cost of just one, and possibly negotiate to have the road bridge widened to allow a narrow access strip for the club?
- You mention the yardage, which I haven't measured as it was just a quick sketch, but I'm sure there is a bit of room to stretch some holes? 2, 3 and 18 could all be lengthened from what I've sketched. 13 could become a short 4, with 14 lengthened, as I think Tim mentioned, at a later date to reduce disruption? But thats all based aeround the club getting Open qualifying back? I suspect with these works it would be off the rota for a while anyway and so other lengthening or adjustments could be dones at a aletr date, again to avoid disruption in an attempt to have at least the bones of a playable course while the HS2 gets built.
I think Tim has it right in that the whole idea would be to keep costs down (Mark does say the chances are any compensation would take some time to get hold of) and reduce disruption to the members that the club will be desperate to keep on.
Its funny, when I first posted the plan showing the route of the HS2 "only" wiping out the 9th and cutting the 18th in half, I thought to myself that would be easy to come up with a solution. But the biggest nightmare about splitting the course in two would be keeping a course open at all through the works. If it was wiping out 4 or 5 holes on the edge, there would at least be the possibility of keeping 9 holes open through the works?
Cheers,
James
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Ben,
Nice work with both your layouts, though I think they have too many changes for my likeing? They do though a, show the potential of the land for an 18 holes course even with the HS2 running through it, and b, suggest a possible masterplan for future changes if within the designs there could be a way of keeping some of the other works, such as the changes to the holes in the woods top left, to a later date.
Interesting that you seem to be viewing it as the potential for the land, while I seem to be keener on preserving the Colt heritage of the course? Maybe thats the professional to amateur GCA divide?
Cheers,
James
ps Is that a job offer? ;)
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Going back to the main subject
Here is my second proposal for a rejigged course. Taking into consideration of a larger buffer zone from the railway, only one access across the HS2 line and Sean's (acting as a hypothetical client!) request for 2 nine hole loops and keeping holes 3,4,7,12,13,14!
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/WhittingtonHeath-proposed02.jpg)
The opening 3 holes are as they are (downside is that first tee is quite a walk from new clubhouse but it is a compromise), the 2nd fairway is moved to the right to allow for room for the new 8th hole. The new 4th plays to the right of the existing 6th - the green is to be a recreation of the existing 6th green. The new 5th goes toward the 2nd tee. The 6th is the existing 5th but straightened into a short par 4. Hole 7 is the existing 4th. Hole 8 is new then back cross the HS2 line - to a new 9th hole based on the 10th at Pine Valley :) so that the front nine loop ends at the clubhouse.
Back nine starts on an extended 11th hole (the existing 10th fairway is turned into a practice ground) then the new 11th is the existing 8th. the new 12th plays to the existing 7th green from a different angle. New holes 13 to 18 are the existing 12 to 17.
Have fun
Cheers
Ben
I like this effort. The greens are a great set at WH and worth keeping, the 2nd green is superb and I'm glad to see it preserved in your plan.
The current 6th green is on quite a steep drop so I'm not quite sure what your 4th would play like. Also I'm not too sure about the terrain for you new 5th.
Unless my memory is failing me, I disagree with Sean that the carry would be too much on your realigned 6th.
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I have just looked at the ARUP drawing - and the section shows a BRIDGE over the valley starting from where the existing 6th green!
Sounds a bit like Royal Queensland with their road bridge. There should be an underpass anyway so we will need an access link to the bottom part of the site.
Cheers
Ben
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Going back to the main subject
Here is my second proposal for a rejigged course. Taking into consideration of a larger buffer zone from the railway, only one access across the HS2 line and Sean's (acting as a hypothetical client!) request for 2 nine hole loops and keeping holes 3,4,7,12,13,14!
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/WhittingtonHeath-proposed02.jpg)
The opening 3 holes are as they are (downside is that first tee is quite a walk from new clubhouse but it is a compromise), the 2nd fairway is moved to the right to allow for room for the new 8th hole. The new 4th plays to the right of the existing 6th - the green is to be a recreation of the existing 6th green. The new 5th goes toward the 2nd tee. The 6th is the existing 5th but straightened into a short par 4. Hole 7 is the existing 4th. Hole 8 is new then back cross the HS2 line - to a new 9th hole based on the 10th at Pine Valley :) so that the front nine loop ends at the clubhouse.
Back nine starts on an extended 11th hole (the existing 10th fairway is turned into a practice ground) then the new 11th is the existing 8th. the new 12th plays to the existing 7th green from a different angle. New holes 13 to 18 are the existing 12 to 17.
Have fun
Cheers
Ben
I like this effort. The greens are a great set at WH and worth keeping, the 2nd green is superb and I'm glad to see it preserved in your plan.
The current 6th green is on quite a steep drop so I'm not quite sure what your 4th would play like. Also I'm not too sure about the terrain for you new 5th.
Unless my memory is failing me, I disagree with Sean that the carry would be too much on your realigned 6th.
Paul,
The proposed 4th is similar to the 4th a Luffenham Heath (Colt/White/Braid) it is an interesting hole.
Hole 5 should be an uphill short par 5.
There are 4 new greens on proposed layout 2 and new holes go through some areas of existing fairway which should help to offset costs. Also opening up the trees on the new 4th and 5th should recreate the heathland environment.
Cheers
Ben
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With respect, one of the key important factors is to minimise the amount of the change and the retention of as much as possible of the existing course is likely to be the biggest winner.
The course needs to be playable as much as possible throughout the period of construction change and costs are a likely factor, new greens cost lots, re designing golf courses is a total different art to total new build and symphathy with existing architecture is fairly important in swaying green committees.
I looked at this in 2D and before I saw anyones routing pretty much came up with the third one.
The first five holes are fine as they are and the 6th can keep much of the existing but would need a new green tucked right( I assume its possible). 7 and 8 are fine as they are, I would re-route the 9th pretty much backwards down the 10th and a new 10th (short par 4) is possible on the open ground currently below the 11 tees, the rest I'd keep as is save extend 17 as Ben did then finish with a short hole.
So four new greens, most holes and their numbers kept intact, I think the course length could be retained, but more importantly the course is largely unchanged.
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I must say that this is a very interesting topic - Sean should take credit for it. This is what GCA is really all about discussing different ideas and layouts. I think we have come up with the conclusion that HS2 is NOT the end of Whittington Heath. The course will take a hit and then come back with some 'minor' adjustments and the most important thing is that it is feasible to come up with a rejigged layout of similar yardage.
I would have thought that a lot of golf courses built before WW2 lost a number of holes or changed post war to make way for farming, airfields, developments etc. I know the current layout at Luffenham Heath is not the original - Holes 9, 11 and 12 are new but they do make the course 'cramped' I would have liked to play the 3 original 'meadow' holes originally designed but sadly they are NLE. This is a similar approach to what a lot of clubs had to do during and post war.
Downfield is another example - the majority of the Braid holes have gone to development. The original course can be seen on Google Earth 1945 maps half of the holes remain or been rejigged.
This shows that we are adaptable for the better or worse!
Cheers
Ben
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Ben,
Nice work with both your layouts, though I think they have too many changes for my likeing? They do though a, show the potential of the land for an 18 holes course even with the HS2 running through it, and b, suggest a possible masterplan for future changes if within the designs there could be a way of keeping some of the other works, such as the changes to the holes in the woods top left, to a later date.
Interesting that you seem to be viewing it as the potential for the land, while I seem to be keener on preserving the Colt heritage of the course? Maybe thats the professional to amateur GCA divide?
Cheers,
James
ps Is that a job offer? ;)
James,
Yes you might be trying to preserve the Colt features of the course - I am trying to create like for like or even make it better. Did Braid do that on a lot of courses by Colt and Mackenzie, etc over the years?
My opinion is that if the Colt features were preserved - the course will be shorter taking it backwards rather than try and progress it forward to today's ball game.
Cheers
Ben
PS. We have to take what we can in the current climate workwise!
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Ben,
Nice work with both your layouts, though I think they have too many changes for my likeing? They do though a, show the potential of the land for an 18 holes course even with the HS2 running through it, and b, suggest a possible masterplan for future changes if within the designs there could be a way of keeping some of the other works, such as the changes to the holes in the woods top left, to a later date.
Interesting that you seem to be viewing it as the potential for the land, while I seem to be keener on preserving the Colt heritage of the course? Maybe thats the professional to amateur GCA divide?
Cheers,
James
ps Is that a job offer? ;)
James,
Yes you might be trying to preserve the Colt features of the course - I am trying to create like for like or even make it better. Did Braid do that on a lot of courses by Colt and Mackenzie, etc over the years?
My opinion is that if the Colt features were preserved - the course will be shorter taking it backwards rather than try and progress it forward to today's ball game.
Cheers
Ben
PS. We have to take what we can in the current climate workwise!
Ben I think there's virtually zero chance of having a better golf course with the HS2 running through the middle. And no Braid didn't do much to Colt's courses.
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Paul,
Whilst agreeing with much of what you write, high speed train lines are one of the very best ways this country can spend money on infrastructure and, as a resident of the North East, I can assure you that money does need to be spent on infrastructure.
Mark
Mark
Given how communications are changing, I think the HS2 idea is well past it prime and I'm sceptical it will pay off.
No matter the who's in power in the UK it seems that the countryside always loses out to the cities. In my mind, the British countryside and the smaller communities are its crown jewel. Great variety and nearly always pleasant to look in comparison with other European countries.
In contrast, the large British towns and cities tend to be drab and unexceptional compared with European counterparts.
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Ben,
Nice work with both your layouts, though I think they have too many changes for my likeing? They do though a, show the potential of the land for an 18 holes course even with the HS2 running through it, and b, suggest a possible masterplan for future changes if within the designs there could be a way of keeping some of the other works, such as the changes to the holes in the woods top left, to a later date.
Interesting that you seem to be viewing it as the potential for the land, while I seem to be keener on preserving the Colt heritage of the course? Maybe thats the professional to amateur GCA divide?
Cheers,
James
ps Is that a job offer? ;)
James,
Yes you might be trying to preserve the Colt features of the course - I am trying to create like for like or even make it better. Did Braid do that on a lot of courses by Colt and Mackenzie, etc over the years?
My opinion is that if the Colt features were preserved - the course will be shorter taking it backwards rather than try and progress it forward to today's ball game.
Cheers
Ben
PS. We have to take what we can in the current climate workwise!
Ben I think there's virtually zero chance of having a better golf course with the HS2 running through the middle. And no Braid didn't do much to Colt's courses.
Paul,
That might be your opinion that having a zero chance of having at better golf course - it always depends who is working on it and the time and effort into the design, construction and understanding Colt's design philosophy and style.
Based on Sean's tasks/comments most of us tried to keep the strong Colt holes and improve or retain as much of the affected holes. The drawings are at early stage - if I worked/developed it into more detail I would have put an effort to make it stronger taking reference of Colt holes not only at Whittington but at other Colt courses so that the course is stronger from 1-18 whether there is HS2 going through the course or not.
Colt did not always do a great course - the majority are good there are a few weak ones. Braid worked on a lot of course improvements for example Luffenham (Colt/White course), Carnoustie and Reddish Vale etc after Colt and Mackenzie, etc died.
A lot of golf courses evolve - there are very few 'pure' Colt courses nowadays.
Cheers
Ben
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I must say that this is a very interesting topic - Sean should take credit for it. This is what GCA is really all about discussing different ideas and layouts. I think we have come up with the conclusion that HS2 is NOT the end of Whittington Heath. The course will take a hit and then come back with some 'minor' adjustments and the most important thing is that it is feasible to come up with a rejigged layout of similar yardage.
I would have thought that a lot of golf courses built before WW2 lost a number of holes or changed post war to make way for farming, airfields, developments etc. I know the current layout at Luffenham Heath is not the original - Holes 9, 11 and 12 are new but they do make the course 'cramped' I would have liked to play the 3 original 'meadow' holes originally designed but sadly they are NLE. This is a similar approach to what a lot of clubs had to do during and post war.
Downfield is another example - the majority of the Braid holes have gone to development. The original course can be seen on Google Earth 1945 maps half of the holes remain or been rejigged.
This shows that we are adaptable for the better or worse!
Cheers
Ben
Ben
Yes, I was pleasantly surprised to see much of the course can be preserved if the powers that be want to. I have a feeling that the club would want at the very least like for like in terms of difficulty and that preserving Colt's work wouldn't be a priority if that could be achieved. That said, there would certainly be a tradeoff because I can't see the club wanting to spend most of a windfall on a course if it has the possibility to pack some money away. I am not saying the club is cheap, but it doesn't strike me as terribly wealthy.
Boony
I only meant your 8th is covering pretty dull ground and is dead straight.
Paul
Hmm, I like Ben's 12th on his second effort.
I honestly couldn't say if a few of these efforts are better or not than Whitty. While I think the course is very good, there is considerable room for improvement. #s 5, 6 (despite a wild green), 8, 9, 15 and 17 while not bad holes, could all use help.
Ciao
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Sean
I think 5 would be easy to improve with tree clearing to expose the pit. Same with the 6th. clear the trees down the right and expose that "cop". I actually thought the 6th green doesn't look right, my guess is it's a modern redo, but could be wrong. 9 could perhaps be helped with some more bunkers.
Don't agree that 8, 15 and 17 need anything though. These are all fine holes with cracking greens.
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Ben
I think there's zero chance of WH being a better golf course with the HS2 running through it because I like peace and quiet and do not like huge embankments.
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Im in Paul's camp, better if the HS2 does not happen. I dont think in the short term WH can be bettered by a severe rehash. I think it needs sympathy in redesign. Whilst I dont know this course deeply and the bits that go with he HS2, noise and uglyness will play their part, are there overhead cables/ electrification involved? If yes, then that wont be pretty.
Its a simple re-do IMO, without looking at the topo and the extents of the railway encroachment its hard to be exact but 9 and 18 get butchered, there is space to get back with a 300 yarder from a tee by the current 17th green to a green by the current 11th tees, 17 needs to be extended into a big 5 so creates some room.
Most of this is simple green construction that can be implemented whilst the current course is in play, Id estimate the work at £150,000.
If the club really wanted to get the length back then an extension of the current 15th and 16th might be worth a thought, if 6500 is crucial.
1-5 unchanged (save an extension of tee at 3)
6 new green slightly riight
7-8 unchanged
9 new hole back up 10
10 new hole in ground between current 10 & 17
11-16 unchanged
17 extended into a par 5 up short of the new track
18 par 3 into existing green
Why mess it up even more???????Why spend a million more??????
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Adrian
Losing the 18th is the biggest loss...it's a very good finisher.
Having the 17th as a par 5 to a green in the current 18th fairway wouldn't be too exciting in my view. It's just not a very interesting site.
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Paul - Not a lot you can do about losing 18 though if that train chugs through.
The new 17th green site would change a lot with the train crossing.
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Paul - Not a lot you can do about losing 18 though if that train chugs through.
The new 17th green site would change a lot with the train crossing.
Adrian
Yes obviously re the 18th. I don't think any of the solutions so far have come up with a replacement hole that would be as satisfactory.
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Paul
Yes, 5 and 6 would be improved with trees being taken out. I wouldn't be surprised if the 6th green is not Colt, bt its still good. I think the 8th would too on top of the spur you mention. I think 9 is a dead duck and won't be very good regardless - I don't like the incline of the hole at all. 15 seems a bit dull looking from the tee. I always thought a cross bunker would do there some 30 yards short of the green. 17 bends the wrong the way making it dangerous and not using the green as well as it could. You are right, the 18th is a bit of a blow to lose even though the drive zone is messed up a bit with a poorly placed bunker. The green bunkering is very well done.
There is no question in terms of the ambience of WHGC that it would be finished if a train went through the middle. Nothing could make up for that.
Ciao
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Paul - I pretty much agree, the dissection would be negative for WH. Time would make (MY) extended 17th a better hole, 18 is recreating the approach but I tend to agree its a loss and in general its a case of just preserving as much as possible.
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Adrian,
The revisions you have described sound a little like my initial lunchtime sketch before the one I posted. I went away from it because though I dont mind a par 3 to finish, or playing over tee shot over a green, I figured both together was a bit tricky and tried to come up with something else from the amatuer designers point of view.
From Sean's initial fear about the impact on the club, I think we have all managed to prove that there is some scope for retaining WHGC and its Colt heritage in some form, and its not a total death of the club. Obviously the matter of compensation, programme of both the HS2 and clubs works, keeping a short version of the course open during the works, and also any buffer zone along the tracks or impact of the construction are also an issue, as is the visual and sound impact of the line, all are big factors. But as I said, there is potential for some kind of new routing and so the club wouldn't have to move or die?
To be honest, I love the fact that Ben had a crack at this (promting me and Matt to have a go) and has at several other courses in the past. Sure at times they are a 2D exercise and we all recognise that golf course design is not as simple as that, but they are fun and should be encouraged. We can't spend all our time arguing of who designed M****n, the use of carts or looking at Natalie Gulbis videos... ;)
Cheers,
James
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Looks like the "powers that be" didn't even consult the club and just sprung the new route on them. Typical government thuggery!
http://www.thisislichfield.co.uk/news/High-speed-rail-link-destroy-village-golf-club-s-little-community/article-3121161-detail/article.html
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I remember a number of clubs losing land to the M60 (as it now is) when it was built around Manchester. None is better than it was before.
The Hazel Grove by-pass was threatened from pre-War and Hazel Grove abandoned tracts of its MacKenzie course, having new holes built by Tom MacAuley. It is a horrid mix of ancient and modern. The by-pass has since been cancelled - what an unnecessary loss of good MacKenzie! Conwy lost some of its best holes to the A55 tunnel under the Conwy Estuary. The replacement holes might be tough (too tough) but they are not nice holes.
From the Conwy experience I would say that the disruption to the course will extend well beyond the confines of the railway. Just look at any road building site and you will see it extended far beyond the resultant road while construction is taking place.
But I also have a worry about Health and Safety - would you be allowed holes parallel to the line. What if....? Or even a fairway approaching a green at right angles to the railway. What if someone thins a ball out of a bunker and it drops over the fence right into the path of....? Won't there have to be quite a safety margin to either side of the line's fences? What has happened in other countries where new high-speed lines have been built? France, Germany, Spain?
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It is a horrid mix of ancient and modern.
I agree.
Did you ever play the old 17th?
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Fascinating Thread and excellent first draft/concept ideas for the development at WHGC.
My design company along with one other have been competing for this job for a few months now and are both awaiting the decision from the management/development committee for ongoing architectural works. We have both visited the site on at least two occasions which Im aware of and have both presented final proposals before Christmas to the development committee.
Clearly we are both in a sensitive, 'need to know' situation at present, so can't disclose anything on this forum, but will be sure to let you all know what the outcomes are as and when they are decided.
Right now, we are all teaming together to get the best possible outcome for WHGC and are looking at similar case studies in various places over the UK which had this type of disruption.
In the meantime, GOOD to be back - long time since ive posted here, and thats thanks to Mr. Turner with whom I have been corresponding with on this subject for a few months now. Many Thanks Paul for all your help over that time.
James Edwards
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I have been following this thread with interest. I take Mark R's comments on safety as being some of the most crucial. As it is a high speed train I can only imagine what carnage a golf ball strike would do on a train travelling at 300km/h plus. Could be catastrophic. So I can imagine the rail authorities wanting a significant setback for golf holes from the rail alignment, plus the likelihood of 30m mesh fencing along adjacent golf holes. I can only imagine the actual corridor needed will be much greater than the corridor shown on the sketch plans that people have prepared for this thread. Just my thoughts. Hope I'm wrong but I think the impacts on the course will be even worse than first thought.
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Neil
I don't know that a high speed train would be affected more by a golf ball than an ordinary train? And of course there are lots of train tracks next to golf courses in the UK.
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What's the latest with the high speed train?
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Eric
The consultation period runs until the end of July. For those interested in making comments see http://highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/
The club raises some good arguments, but not nearly enough to have much of an impact if you ask me. They need to get much more stuck in with proper planning objections rather than worrying about political objections.
http://www.whittingtonheathgc.co.uk/Content.aspx?Menuid=73
Ciao
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Thanks Sean. I ended up reading a bit more about the HS2 after posting my question. I'd certainly love to play WH asap knowing it may not be around one of these days, at least in its current form.
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No surprise that the government OK'd the project. On very weak economic and "CO2" grounds in my view.
Go see Whittington Heath before it's spoiled.
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No surprise that the government OK'd the project. On very weak economic and "CO2" grounds in my view.
Go see Whittington Heath before it's spoiled.
Paul
This decision was never in doubt once both parties were on board.
Even though it has meant I haven't played WH in a few years it is good to know the club isn't panicking by offering cheap rates (unless you bring 4 guys to the table)/county cards/memberships. Some think memberships in the future could be very reasonable. Reasonable enough to join in a few years (its hard to imagine many people paying a joining fee now), keep social membership at the old club and then ride out WH until the end and quit.
Does anybody know what this Heathland Course is about?
On a more positive note, if three more folks are interested in playing WH on a Friday in the next few months give me a shout. Its £140 for 4 including some sort of meal.
Ciao
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Sean,
That sounds like something I could fit in with a trip to visit my mum, so yes, I'm interested.
Mark
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Sean
I would be interested in that assuming the dates fit.
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Sean,
If I can get the time off for a Friday, then I'd certainly be interested in seeing Whittington Heath, as its really not that far from me! I can then get to see how rubbish my sketch design was... ::)
Cheers,
James
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Visited the WHGC website recently. Seems they are planning for life after the HS2
http://www.whittingtonheathgc.co.uk/Content.aspx?Menuid=73
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A few years on and work at Whittington Heath has been proceeding apace. The new holes are planned to be in play next year.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48593329052_fb4633efc4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h32vL9)whgc-master-plan (https://flic.kr/p/2h32vL9) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/whittington-heath-project-to-bring-back-golden-age-look (https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/whittington-heath-project-to-bring-back-golden-age-look)
Yet today HS2 is all over the news for another reason - it may be cancelled! In fact, I suspect it almost certainly WILL be cancelled!
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/21/hs2-review-launched-over-whether-rail-project-should-proceed (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/21/hs2-review-launched-over-whether-rail-project-should-proceed)
So what happens at Whittington Heath if no railway dissects the course after all? Presumably the land occupied by the old holes is now owned by HS2, and ultimately by the government. Of what use or value is that land other than for golf?
Could Whittington Heath GC maybe lease the land back at a favourable rate and reincorporate the holes as a third nine? Or a par 3 course?
My Cavendish compadre Jonathan Gaunt must be rubbing his hands... :D
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Duncan
I asked what would happen if the rail line was nixed. The guys said they expect the changes will go ahead because a new house is being built as we speak and the land in question is will not be owned by the club. Although, they didn't know when the land would be officially turned over to the government because the club is obviously still using that land. I found it difficult to get a sense of the new holes on the old land as a few slash across existing holes to old greens. The one thing I thought would be very odd is the new five holes are on farm land...treeless. The old holes still have lots of trees. How are the two to be married in a way which doesn't seem odd.
Ciao
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Sean,
They are well past the point of no return on building the new clubhouse and new holes. The question is about what happens to the land compulsorily purchased by HS2 if the line is nixed.
When exactly the same thing happened at Hazel Grove GC in the 90s the club continued to maintain some of the old Dr Mac holes as practice areas while the rest were reclaimed by nature.
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Duncan
I don't think there will be much left to consider maintaining as holes which fit in anyway with the new design because some greens are being used for new corridor holes. I spose the current 7th hole could be saved. Off hand I can't think of another hole which will be left intact.
Ciao
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With news of the cancellation of the northern leg of HS2, what does this mean for WH? Was all the redesign and expense a waste or will HS2 still cut through WH as was planned?
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With news of the cancellation of the northern leg of HS2, what does this mean for WH? Was all the redesign and expense a waste or will HS2 still cut through WH as was planned?
Cancelling HS2 from Birmingham to Manchester is a poor decision by UK Government IMO from an economic standpoint.
On the other hand I suspect they will be selling off the land they bought by CPO cheaply to the ire of taxpayers.
The costs spiralled by a number of factors and trying to keep many people/groups happy.
So there could be a possibility that WH will buy the land back and a restoration of the original course be on the books and the new holes converted into a sporting 9 holes?
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Ingestre Park nr Stafford has also just had its course redesigned and rebuilt due to HS2 (Birmingham to Manchester) as well.
https://www.ingestregolf.co.uk/the_new_course (https://www.ingestregolf.co.uk/the_new_course)
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With news of the cancellation of the northern leg of HS2, what does this mean for WH? Was all the redesign and expense a waste or will HS2 still cut through WH as was planned?
Cancelling HS2 from Birmingham to Manchester is a poor decision by UK Government IMO from an economic standpoint.
On the other hand I suspect they will be selling off the land they bought by CPO cheaply to the ire of taxpayers.
The costs spiralled by a number of factors and trying to keep many people/groups happy.
So there could be a possibility that WH will buy the land back and a restoration of the original course be on the books and the new holes converted into a sporting 9 holes?
It's possible to a large degree. Although it would be a spare 5 holes.
Ciao
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Whittington Heath is within the Phase 1 HS2 works which will be completed. Ingestre Park is not.
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Whittington Heath is within the Phase 1 HS2 works which will be completed. Ingestre Park is not.
I thought phase 1 will stop in Brum?
Ciao
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According to the official route map, Phase 1 rejoins the West Coast mainline just south-east of Rugeley.
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According to the official route map, Phase 1 rejoins the West Coast mainline just south-east of Rugeley.
I think it will stop at Curzon St Station then use the old line heading north. Strange station to stop. Not directly in the centre of Brum and not that close to the airport.
Ciao
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The line into Birmingham is a spur, but they have committed to completing the section to connect with the WCML near Rugeley. A huge amount of engineering work is already underway and their main depot is on the line here near Lichfield. Please check online for yourself. It is all there.
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The line into Birmingham is a spur, but they have committed to completing the section to connect with the WCML near Rugeley. A huge amount of engineering work is already underway and their main depot is on the line here near Lichfield. Please check online for yourself. It is all there.
This is correct. I worked on HS2 for a year and a half. Phase 1 goes into Curzon Street, Interchange Station near the airport and Lichfield Trent Valley, which is just north of the bit that cuts through WH. Which bit is now a spur given the extent of the line is up for debate!
However, Ingestre Park is within the Phase 2 area going to Manchester so presumably will no longer me impacted, unless it's too late.
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Ingestre Park has already been completely rebuilt.
https://www.ingestregolf.co.uk/the_new_course
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Ingestre Park has already been completely rebuilt.
https://www.ingestregolf.co.uk/the_new_course (https://www.ingestregolf.co.uk/the_new_course)
Robin,
I already beat you to it - I put the link up in an earlier thread ;D