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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: US Naval Academy Golf Course--Annapolis, MD--William Flynn
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2010, 09:07:56 PM »
I should have known the Acadamy had a great corse. I had never heard of it either. The pictures look great. I will have to dust off my white jacket and brass buttons to sneak in.

John Moore II

Re: US Naval Academy Golf Course--Annapolis, MD--William Flynn--Hole #1 Posted
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2010, 10:04:24 PM »
Pictures of Hole #1, Par 4, 429 yards:
Tee shot should be played towards the large oak/hardwood tree down the left side with a fade. That will leave a mid-iron shot into the green that is elevated far above the fairway.

Middle of the fairway location for the second shot. Green is probably 50 feet above the level of the fairway. The green itself is fairly large and flat, but given the uphill nature of the shot, the second shot must land on the green surface.

This next picture looks down on the green from the back right. The green itself is fairly flat, but the front falls off sharply and the back goes directly up a hill behind the green. A shot hit long will likely not come back down the hill and back onto the surface.

Looking back at the green from the front.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:07:32 PM by John K. Moore »

Garland Bayley

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Re: US Naval Academy Golf Course--Annapolis, MD--William Flynn--Hole #1 Posted
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2010, 12:55:00 AM »
...Middle of the fairway location for the second shot. Green is probably 50 feet above the level of the fairway. The green itself is fairly large and flat, but given the uphill nature of the shot, the second shot must land on the green surface.
...

Why must the shot land on the green surface? Can't I just pound a running driver up the hill onto the surface?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Moore II

Re: US Naval Academy Golf Course--Annapolis, MD--William Flynn--Hole #1 Posted
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2010, 01:06:23 AM »
...Middle of the fairway location for the second shot. Green is probably 50 feet above the level of the fairway. The green itself is fairly large and flat, but given the uphill nature of the shot, the second shot must land on the green surface.
...

Why must the shot land on the green surface? Can't I just pound a running driver up the hill onto the surface?


Yeah maybe. But the hill is pretty steep and not terribly firm. And I will look when I go back, it may be rough fronting the green as well. A run-up shot is possible, just not very likely at all.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: US Naval Academy Golf Course--Annapolis, MD--William Flynn-Hole #1 Posted
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2010, 02:21:14 AM »
John,
Is the third picture miscaptioned? It appears to be taken from back right, not back left.
Garland,
Steep upslope in front of the green would probably hold up your driver third shot :) I can't remember getting a lot of roll up there.

John Moore II

Re: US Naval Academy Golf Course--Annapolis, MD--William Flynn-Hole #1 Posted
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2010, 12:25:08 PM »
John,
Is the third picture miscaptioned? It appears to be taken from back right, not back left.
Garland,
Steep upslope in front of the green would probably hold up your driver third shot :) I can't remember getting a lot of roll up there.

Sorry, back left if looking back down the hole from the rear of the green. But yes, from the fairway, back right.

John Moore II

Hole #2, Par 4, 304 yards
This hole is semi-reachable as it typically plays downwind (or at least has the two times I have played it), but it will take a truly perfect shot to get onto the green. The green is elevated above the level of the fairway, which is a common feature here. Hole doglegs gently to the right, with a large oak tree really defining the hole. The tree is not a real hazard, but it does require thought in strategy for how to best play around it. The longer player can boom a high cut around the tree and end up very close to the green. A shorter player can hit a draw or straight shot into the left side of the fairway. But in either case, the tree must be avoided. For the shorter player, a shot to the right will require he play up and over the tree while for a longer player, a slightly mis-hit shot may end up in the tree and from there, there is no knowing where it might go.

Tee shot:


Second shot from right of the oak, not in the fairway. Note the bunker fronting the green on the right side:


Looking back to the green from the 3rd tee, note the left side bunker and steep fall-off behind the green:


Two additional photos, one from the left side of the fairway, the other from the right side, behind the tree. Note that you can possibly run the ball onto the green from the left side, but from the right, it is obviously an airborne shot:

« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:16:53 PM by John K. Moore »

Carl Rogers

John,
It does look like a course with a good mix of attractiveness and challenge.  I wonder if I can play there.

General Question:
Would any of you looking at these pictures come to the conclusion that the course is over treed and needs a thinning?

John Moore II

John,
It does look like a course with a good mix of attractiveness and challenge.  I wonder if I can play there.

Carl, the course is 'private' but I don't think it is exceptionally exclusive. You may be able to get the pro from Riverfront to give them a ring. Oh, and you are civil service, no?
General Question:
Would any of you looking at these pictures come to the conclusion that the course is over treed and needs a thinning?

I will hold off on this one to see if anyone else comments.

Pete_Pittock

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Keep it going, and can you add yardages?

John Moore II

Keep it going, and can you add yardages?

I will add yardages in a moment when I post hole #3 photos. I would post them faster, but my camera has crapped out on me and I used my phone (and I don't have my micro card to get them all off at once). So, about one hole at a time is all I can stand to do.

Carl-Since there have been no other takers for the tree question, I will go ahead and answer. Basically, yes, they do need to take out a great number of trees, mostly on the back nine. The trees on the front provide fair hazards where you are penalized but can recover. I have nothing against those kind of trees. They also provide buffers between the holes, because as you can see in the aerials, the holes tend to run very close together. So, on the front nine, the trees are fine. But on the back nine, the trees actually hinder turf growth; therefore a great many of them need to disappear. Holes 15-18 are pretty good, though the tee on 17 is greatly shaded. The rest of the holes, especially the tees, are all quite shaded; none of the tees on holes 10-15 are very good. So, yes, on the back nine, a fairly extensive tree removal needs to happen. I played with a member today and I asked him had a tree removal been discussed, he said that to his knowledge it had not.

John Moore II

Hole #3, Par 5, 535 yards:
Tee shot plays downhill and semi-blind. A shot down the left is slightly safer, but a shot up the right side if hit long enough can bound off the large hill that you can see near the small trees. This hole typically plays into the wind, but it is still reachable if you can get a good, level lie in the fairway.


This shows the second shot, playing back uphill to the green. If you try to go for the green in two, you must carry the deep bunker on the right, and draw the ball around the greenside bunker on the left and between another greenside bunker right. Add to that the green has a false front and a steep falloff to the left side of the green behind the bunker. So, even with a flat lie, its no easy shot to get the ball onto the green in two shots, as well if should be.


The approach shot from about 100 yards. A shot played far up the left like this one will allow the player to have a flat lie, shots played down the right, short of the large fairway bunker will be played from a left-to-right sloping lie. Some of the movement in the green can be seen in this shot, the false front, the left falloff, a ridge running through the center of the green and the fall off beyond the fringe right and long.


The depth of the fairway bunker. The face is probably about 4 feet high.


Closer view of the green, contours more visible.


And a look back down the fairway to show the fairway hills and rolls.


And note in the first picture how we are all walking. Yes, it happens.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:18:07 PM by John K. Moore »

John Moore II

Hole 4, Par 3, 214 yards
This is a fairly difficult par 3 as it plays in the same general direction as hole #3, meaning it plays into the wind normally. The green is mostly flat, of course is should be on a hole of this length that plays into the wind. The hole plays slightly uphill and it is fronted by bunkers right and left, but the width between the bunkers is certainly fair, about 20 yards wide. The green is elevated in the rear about 2 feet, so shots long will roll down the bank a bit.


A closer look at the green area:

PCCraig

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Great stuff, thanks for posting John.

I love the greenside bunkering, perhaps not a great example of "Flynn," but interesting nonetheless.
H.P.S.

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: US Naval Academy Golf Course--Annapolis, MD--William Flynn
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2010, 02:35:39 PM »
Wow, this looks terrific.  Battling Eau Claire G&CC for "Greatest Course You've Never Heard Of" honors!


Hold on, Eau Claire Wisconsin?
Not trying to thread jack , just surprised. The in laws are in EC Wi.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 02:44:46 PM by Bruce Wellmon »

Craig Disher

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The bunkers were rebuilt several years ago and to many eyes not in the original Flynn style. I don't think the greens have been touched. There is a slight difference between Flynn's plan and the current course. In the late 40s/early 50s two holes were lost to some Naval construction and a pair of alternate holes were added (the current 13 and 14). But except for an alteration in the routing and the two new holes, the course is very close to Flynn's design.

This 1940s era photo shows the original Flynn course. The first number on each hole is the current hole number; the second is the numbering for the Flynn hole. "x" of course indicates a hole that didn't or doesn't exist.


John Moore II

Hole 5, Par 4, 363 yards:
Well designed par 4 that plays back up the hill. While the hole is fairly short, the hill obviously makes it play longer and also generally more difficult on the second shot. The tee shot can be played as long as the player may want, but if played short of the upslope, the player will be left with a flat lie, beyond that it is an uphill lie. Looking at the old aerial, it proves what I thought was the case, that being that many of the trees on the front nine have been semi-recently planted.


A look at the uphill second shot from about 100 yards out. From this angle, the left side of the green is obscured, as is the left side bunker.


Looking down on the green from above the left side bunker. There is a bunker short right as well, and a grass-type bunker abutting the bunker on the right, which, as I suspected, was originally a sand bunker that has since been covered.


An up-close look at the green. I intended to show the ridge/tier that runs down the center of the green perpendicular to the line of play, but the picture did not turn out as I wanted.



Going to the 1940's aerial, I did think it was a slight oddity with the current 7th playing back to the pro shop, but given there the range is and the 'club' part of the course over on that side of the street, I actually thought the current front nine may have been the original back nine, with the would-be 16th playing back close to the clubhouse. As far as having to add in new holes, I must say that the course may be better with the current 13th and 14th than the old 3rd and 4th. 13 and 14 are very good holes, as is the present 12th for that matter. Those two holes have great movement in the land, where the original holes would have played straight downhill (#3) and then straight back uphill (#4). There is very little land movement, at least at the present time, in the land that those two holes occupied.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:18:45 PM by John K. Moore »

Craig Disher

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John,
The ground for Flynn's 3rd isn't all that great but I think his 4th was one of the best holes on the course - long par 4 with a fall-off on the right and good fairway bunker positions. I also believe that the current 14th green is on exactly the same site as Flynn's 14th - although it may have been altered to accommodate the new line of approach.

John Moore II

John,
The ground for Flynn's 3rd isn't all that great but I think his 4th was one of the best holes on the course - long par 4 with a fall-off on the right and good fairway bunker positions. I also believe that the current 14th green is on exactly the same site as Flynn's 14th - although it may have been altered to accommodate the new line of approach.

Craig-I believe you are correct, the current 14th green looks to be a reuse of the original 14th green with some bunker placement changed. The way they changed the green for #14 is really good with the bunker on the centerline of the green short. Really makes you think about going for the green in two.

John Moore II

Hole 4, Par 6, 333 yards:
This hole plays substantially downhill off the tee. Typically this hole plays into the wind, but in my 4th round here, it played downwind. It plays tremendously different depending on the wind. Into the wind, it is a difficult tee shot because of how long the ball is in the air. The fairway bunkers are definitely in play from the back tees with a driver for the longer players. Downwind, the green is reachable off the tee. This hole is a good driver/wedge hole. Not a whole lot of strategy overall, but it has a lot of options depending on the wind.

View from the back tee. This is another hole, along with #2, that plays far different for men and women. The back tees are 333, 'regular' men's tees are 328 and forwards tees are 323. So, in calm conditions, given the downhill nature of the hole, an average male golfers can have 100 yards left into the hole, but even the longer lady club players would struggle to have a similar yardage into the green. There is a forward 'Ladies 9 hole' tee at 282 yards, but even at that range, the hole plays vastly different for ladies and men.


View from near the forward 'ladies 9 hole' tee. Gives a much clearer view of the fairway, hazards and potential strategy on the hole.


View of the green from the approach area, roughly 75 yards from the green.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 11:02:53 PM by John K. Moore »

John Moore II

Hole 7, Par 3, 180 yards:
Fairly straight forward mid-length par 3. Green has some fair movement and is quite elevated above the ground in front of the green. Shots short will roll back 10 yards or more and be about 6 feet below the putting surface. And this is the only hole that really requires a carry over water (#1 does but its only about 125 yards from even the back tees; the forward and second forward tees are on the other side)

View from the back/men's tee


View from the forward tee gives a better look at the pond and height of the green


Short of the green, at the bottom of the fall-off. I am about 6' tall and the edge of the green was at or slightly above my eye level


Another view from short, looking up on the green showing the contours of the green. Like a few others on the course, this is a two tiered green with the ridge running perpendicular to the line of play (oh, why can't more greens have tiers with the divide parallel to the line of play?)

John Moore II

Hole 8, Par 4, 454 yards:
Nice, long par 4 that normally plays into the wind, making it a real tough test. The drive can either hug the right side and have possibly a shorter shot into the green or go down the left, with a draw ideally, and possibly get additional roll off a hill and the better line into the green. However, a ball that does not go quite far enough down the left side will leave the player with a very difficult sidehill/downhill lie into an elevated green. The green is well protected, being cut out of the side of a hill and having a bunker slightly short of the green to the left and two tiered bunkers right. Behind the bunkers on the right, the green falls off fairly steeply down towards the 9th tee.

Tee Shot:


Second Shot from the left side:


Closer view of the green site:

John Moore II

Well, even though interest in this course/thread has obviously waned to zero, I will finish up posting the pictures, for the few who look at them, enjoy.

Hole 9, Par 4





Hole 10, Par 4



Hole 11, Par 4





Hole 12, Par 4




Hole 13, Par 4




Hole 14, Par 5






Hole 15, Par 4





Hole 16, Par 4



Hole 17, Par 3



Hole 18, Par 4



David Egan

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Thanks, this brought back a lot of memories.

mike_malone

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 To me , Flynn's genius is setting up recovery shots to well designed green complexes. Trees PLANTED along the sides of fairways ruins this wonderful design concept.
AKA Mayday

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