Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Moore II on September 02, 2010, 08:08:26 PM
-
Today I made it down to play the Naval Academy Golf Course. Very good course. One of the best routings I have seen on a golf course. Every hole seemed to fit very well. This course had a great amount of movement in the land for being as close to the bay/ocean as it is; I expected it to be much, much flatter. Course has a non-standard (well, modern standard anyway) set of holes, 2 par 5's, 3 par 3's, and 13 par 4's. The par 5's are both high quality, as are the par 3's. I can honestly say that I don't think there was a really weak hole on the course. Hopefully a fair number from here have played this course and will give a few comments. I will most likely play this one again, possibly this weekend, and post pictures. I will give a hole-by-hole review perhaps tonight or tomorrow when my internet connection is better; unless someone else wants to do it.
Hole photos coming slowly.
-
I played this course a lot when I was in college, probably 25-30 times. I remember a few of the holes, especially #17 - the downhill par 3 with severe drop off on each side (I don't think I've ever hit that green) but I'm sure more will come back with some pictures. What I really remember from that course were the greens. They were always the best and fastest greens we played all year. Are they still as pure as they were in the mid-90s?
-
I played this course a lot when I was in college, probably 25-30 times. I remember a few of the holes, especially #17 - the downhill par 3 with severe drop off on each side (I don't think I've ever hit that green) but I'm sure more will come back with some pictures. What I really remember from that course were the greens. They were always the best and fastest greens we played all year. Are they still as pure as they were in the mid-90s?
The greens were suffering a bit today, probably because of the hot and humid summer that the mid-Atlantic region has experienced. 17 was a very good par 3, superb drop-shot hole with a drop off on all sides; certainly a Volcano green.
I actually thought the greens were the weakest part of the course. There is just not a lot of internal contour on most of them. Some have some false fronts and such, but nothing like the movement seen in greens at courses like Riverfront, Tobacco Road or Royal New Kent.
Pretty much every hole plays up, down or to the side of a hill. Only 9 and 18 are flatish. As much as I want to try and describe the holes, I am just going to wait until I get the pictures, otherwise I will not come close to doing the course any justice. As I said before, I think this routing is superb.
-
John K Moore: Interesting to read this, because I've never heard anyone mention the course before.
-
John K Moore: Interesting to read this, because I've never heard anyone mention the course before.
Tom-It has been mentioned on here a few times, but no one has done any kind of review.
This is a small review from Tommy Williamson from a few years ago:
I played in an outing today aat the Naval Academy golf course. They both were parishoners and I knew them well. I just had never played golf with them. The academy course is an interesting William Flynn design that I don't think has been changed much except for some bunkering.
We played as a three ball and the format was the best two scores of each hole. Double par is the maximum score anyone can take on a hole. I have never written down so many eights and tens in my life.
Here is my new definition of penal.
Any shot that has to carry a bunker. I don't even want to talk about water.
Any shot out of a bunker that you can't hit with a putter.
Any shot to an elevated green.
Any putt that breaks more than five feet.
Any downhill putts.
Any tree within 100 yards left or right of the tee box.
Now the score was not told me in the confessional, but some modicum of decency is still left in my soul so I won't reveal it.
Now I must say that it may have been one of the most fun days I have spent on a golf course in a long time. On the other hand I'm not ready to do it again.
I must admit that I don't agree with what he says here, though I must admit that all these features do exist on the course. Well, I didn't have any putts that broke more than 5 feet. And I don't understand how downhill putts are penal; after all, the only way to not have a downhill putt is to not have any uphill ones either...and that makes for exactly flat greens.
Tom-If you are in Maryland now, I am sure a round can be arranged. I'll be happy to join you, I will play here again for sure.
-
John:
I haven't been to Maryland since they closed Beechtree, although I had not thought of it as a silent protest until today. I'm up at North Shore in New York tonight, headed home in the morning to get away from the tropical storm.
-
John, glad to see you figured out a way to get on there! I was sure you could!
-
Aerial view of the course, back nine on top, front nine below, just like the course is laid out:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/USNABack9.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/USNAFront9.jpg)
Bill-The problem was not getting myself onto the course, active duty have access. I had hoped to get a couple of other guys from the site on there; I can play myself but not bring guests. Apparently, the course is not a true military course. It is owned and operated by the USNA Alumni Association and active duty and retired personnel are allowed to play. I did not know that before today.
-
Great info John, thank you. I didn't know anything about this course either.
I played the re-done course at University of Maryland this summer and was also surprised at the elevation changes there because I don't remember the campus being that hilly my few times on it.
I make it to the area a few times a year, so I'm wondering how accessible is the Naval Academy course to the public?
(and if the answer is not accessible to the general public, please do not regard this as me asking for access!)
-
I was there in 2003.
Some front nine pics
Hole 2 approach
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/puddletownpete/AnnapolisNGC2ndgreen.jpg)
Hole 3 approach
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/puddletownpete/AnnapolisNGC3rdgreen.jpg)
Hole 8 approach
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/puddletownpete/AnnapolisNGC8thdogleg.jpg)
Hole 10 approach
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/puddletownpete/AnnapolisNGC10thapproach.jpg)
-
John K Moore: Interesting to read this, because I've never heard anyone mention the course before.
Tom-It has been mentioned on here a few times, but no one has done any kind of review.
This is a small review from Tommy Williamson from a few years ago:
I played in an outing today aat the Naval Academy golf course. They both were parishoners and I knew them well. I just had never played golf with them. The academy course is an interesting William Flynn design that I don't think has been changed much except for some bunkering.
We played as a three ball and the format was the best two scores of each hole. Double par is the maximum score anyone can take on a hole. I have never written down so many eights and tens in my life.
Here is my new definition of penal.
Any shot that has to carry a bunker. I don't even want to talk about water.
Any shot out of a bunker that you can't hit with a putter.
Any shot to an elevated green.
Any putt that breaks more than five feet.
Any downhill putts.
Any tree within 100 yards left or right of the tee box.
Now the score was not told me in the confessional, but some modicum of decency is still left in my soul so I won't reveal it.
Now I must say that it may have been one of the most fun days I have spent on a golf course in a long time. On the other hand I'm not ready to do it again.
I must admit that I don't agree with what he says here, though I must admit that all these features do exist on the course. Well, I didn't have any putts that broke more than 5 feet. And I don't understand how downhill putts are penal; after all, the only way to not have a downhill putt is to not have any uphill ones either...and that makes for exactly flat greens.
Tom-If you are in Maryland now, I am sure a round can be arranged. I'll be happy to join you, I will play here again for sure.
John, the remarks were about the quality of players not a rreview of the course. It was a tongue in cheek stab at my playing partners.
-
My golf professional was able to make arrangements.
Hole 11 tee shot
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/puddletownpete/AnnapolisNGC11thtee.jpg)
Hole 12
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/puddletownpete/AnnapolisNGC12thhole.jpg)
Hole 15
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/puddletownpete/AnnapolisNGC15th.jpg)
Hole 16 approach
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/puddletownpete/AnnapolisNGC16th.jpg)
Hole 17
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/puddletownpete/AnnapolisNGC17thpar3.jpg)
-
Maybe my son's interest in the Naval Academy isn't such a bad thing after all. Thanks for bringing the course to our attention John.
-
Maybe my son's interest in the Naval Academy isn't such a bad thing after all. Thanks for bringing the course to our attention John.
Naval Academy is a great school. Top of the line academics and you don't have to pay a dime, directly anyway. This is a good course for sure.
Tommy W-I kind of wondered if your comments were cheeky, but I posted that anyway. Either way, that is a pretty good description of the challenges you can see in the course.
-
Wow, this looks terrific. Battling Eau Claire G&CC for "Greatest Course You've Never Heard Of" honors!
-
It looks like a damn good course, and Annapolis is a wonderful place.
-
It is a great course. Having installed internal greens drainage on those greens over the past few years, and seen the late afternoon shadows creep over the bunker banks, very serene.
They were talking of rebuilding those beautiful old greens a few years back, but thankfully they opted to install XGD and consider a regrassing effort. Keeping poa alive and fast in that region is tough.
Superintendent Tom Schemmel and staff do a great job there, as play is ridiculousy heavy nearly year round. Tom also is kept busy taking care of the Naval Academy football field as well. Very cool job.
-
It is a great course. Having installed internal greens drainage on those greens over the past few years, and seen the late afternoon shadows creep over the bunker banks, very serene.
They were talking of rebuilding those beautiful old greens a few years back, but thankfully they opted to install XGD and consider a regrassing effort. Keeping poa alive and fast in that region is tough.
Superintendent Tom Schemmel and staff do a great job there, as play is ridiculousy heavy nearly year round. Tom also is kept busy taking care of the Naval Academy football field as well. Very cool job.
Mark-do you agree that the greens don't have a great deal of movement in them? I thought the routing and the tiered bunker placement was very, very good, but that the greens were generally fairly flat. Do you agree with that assessment?
I am hoping to get back there tomorrow and take a load of pictures, more than I usually take. I may or may not get them posted before I leave Baltimore.
For those others who have played or seen the course, what further commentary do you have? I thought the course was very, very well laid out, not just the routing, but the combination of holes.
Among the 2 par 5's, the 3rd is semi-reachable but quite narrow and also it is quite likely that you will be playing off a side-hill lie from the fairway. The other par 5, the 14th, is somewhat more reachable, plays very much downhill off the tee, but them the same amount uphill to the green. Add to that the green has a fairly deep bunker fronting the center of the green, forcing the player who wants to go for the green in two to hit a high, long shot exactly over it.
The par 3's also have great variety. The 4th is a long par 3, 215~ yards and plays somewhat uphill. The 7th is mid-length, playing roughly 185 yards (I don't have my scorecard handy). And the 17th is a great short/drop shot hole, playing about 155 yards from the back tee but downhill. Add to that the 17th has a fantastic green complex being a Volcano style with steep slopes on all sides; the fall off on the right side (fair to the slicers or not) is about 10 feet from the green surface to the ground.
And the par 4's vary from roughly 310 yards up to about 460 yards. Hole 6 plays 335 downhill, the 8th plays around 455 flat to the fairway and uphill to the green. The first is 425~ yards steeply uphill to the green. The 12th is a fantastic hole playing downhill off the tee to a fairway that runs off into rough and a valley that allows water to run down into the lowland area that flanks the hole to the right. From there, it plays greatly uphill to the green.
Sorry for all you who think running the ball onto the green aught to always be necessary, on a fair number of holes here at USNA, its just not possible, 7, 12, 14 and 17 come to mind as holes where a run-up is basically impossible and the uphill nature of many others makes a run-up shot very difficult.
One other thing I noticed, somewhat of a disappointment. I was quite surprised to see they had bermuda fairways, and what seemed to be old common bermuda at that. I had hoped to play a course with different fairways than I was used to, perhaps zoysia or even a cool season grass. Oh well, I don't hold that against the course here.
-
John, I would agree the greens don't exhibit a lot of movement. The green sites in of themselves are the eye candy here as well as the tiered bunkering as you mention which tips off quite a few striking green sites.
The 17th is well described as a great drop shot hole to a smallish green, with the intercoastal in the deep background.
They have a 2-3' zoysiagrass rings around the bunkers here as well. Kind of sets off each bunker in the offseason when the bermuda is more dormant.
-
I don't remember a lot of internal contouring on the greens, but that was seven years ago. But most ar built into a slope and the navy guys I played with seemed to have trouble with pitches, rolls and yaws of the overall course.
-
John, I would agree the greens don't exhibit a lot of movement. The green sites in of themselves are the eye candy here as well as the tiered bunkering as you mention which tips off quite a few striking green sites.
The 17th is well described as a great drop shot hole to a smallish green, with the intercoastal in the deep background.
They have a 2-3' zoysiagrass rings around the bunkers here as well. Kind of sets off each bunker in the offseason when the bermuda is more dormant.
Mark-Given you have worked on the course a good amount, how much of the course is still original and how much has been lost over the years? How original are the greens or have some internal contours been lost?
-
There are old threads on this course from years ago for those interested. With all due respect, the bunkering there needs much attention. It is not the place you'd send someone to see Flynn bunkers. I have not played the course since 2004 but it looks like not much has changed for the better. Course does have potential.
-
That looks like a fine track! Thanks John and Pete, for a nice overview of what seems like an overlooked gem. The course condition is impressive as well, judging from the presentation when those pics were taken. About how much play does it get on an annual basis?
Cheers,
Kris 8)
-
Kris,
I cannot say for sure on the rounds, but it always seems right full of golf, especially its location, gives it early spring, and late fall great playing conditions. I believe a membership there is quite a bargain if you are navy material.
John,
Regarding how much is original, can't exactly say but will try to find out for you.The greens all seem to be native pushup material in terms of their soil makeup, but they still could have been improved upon in this way in the 1950's.
I do know the last bunker renovation was probably 10 years ago.
-
John
Thanks for sharing this thread. Now I'm REALLY wishing we were able to arrange to play there.
Frankly, it looks pretty terrific in the pictures.
-
I should have known the Acadamy had a great corse. I had never heard of it either. The pictures look great. I will have to dust off my white jacket and brass buttons to sneak in.
-
Pictures of Hole #1, Par 4, 429 yards:
Tee shot should be played towards the large oak/hardwood tree down the left side with a fade. That will leave a mid-iron shot into the green that is elevated far above the fairway.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize4.jpg)
Middle of the fairway location for the second shot. Green is probably 50 feet above the level of the fairway. The green itself is fairly large and flat, but given the uphill nature of the shot, the second shot must land on the green surface.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize3.jpg)
This next picture looks down on the green from the back right. The green itself is fairly flat, but the front falls off sharply and the back goes directly up a hill behind the green. A shot hit long will likely not come back down the hill and back onto the surface.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize2.jpg)
Looking back at the green from the front.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize.jpg)
-
...Middle of the fairway location for the second shot. Green is probably 50 feet above the level of the fairway. The green itself is fairly large and flat, but given the uphill nature of the shot, the second shot must land on the green surface.
...
Why must the shot land on the green surface? Can't I just pound a running driver up the hill onto the surface?
-
...Middle of the fairway location for the second shot. Green is probably 50 feet above the level of the fairway. The green itself is fairly large and flat, but given the uphill nature of the shot, the second shot must land on the green surface.
...
Why must the shot land on the green surface? Can't I just pound a running driver up the hill onto the surface?
Yeah maybe. But the hill is pretty steep and not terribly firm. And I will look when I go back, it may be rough fronting the green as well. A run-up shot is possible, just not very likely at all.
-
John,
Is the third picture miscaptioned? It appears to be taken from back right, not back left.
Garland,
Steep upslope in front of the green would probably hold up your driver third shot :) I can't remember getting a lot of roll up there.
-
John,
Is the third picture miscaptioned? It appears to be taken from back right, not back left.
Garland,
Steep upslope in front of the green would probably hold up your driver third shot :) I can't remember getting a lot of roll up there.
Sorry, back left if looking back down the hole from the rear of the green. But yes, from the fairway, back right.
-
Hole #2, Par 4, 304 yards
This hole is semi-reachable as it typically plays downwind (or at least has the two times I have played it), but it will take a truly perfect shot to get onto the green. The green is elevated above the level of the fairway, which is a common feature here. Hole doglegs gently to the right, with a large oak tree really defining the hole. The tree is not a real hazard, but it does require thought in strategy for how to best play around it. The longer player can boom a high cut around the tree and end up very close to the green. A shorter player can hit a draw or straight shot into the left side of the fairway. But in either case, the tree must be avoided. For the shorter player, a shot to the right will require he play up and over the tree while for a longer player, a slightly mis-hit shot may end up in the tree and from there, there is no knowing where it might go.
Tee shot:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize7.jpg)
Second shot from right of the oak, not in the fairway. Note the bunker fronting the green on the right side:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize6.jpg)
Looking back to the green from the 3rd tee, note the left side bunker and steep fall-off behind the green:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize5.jpg)
Two additional photos, one from the left side of the fairway, the other from the right side, behind the tree. Note that you can possibly run the ball onto the green from the left side, but from the right, it is obviously an airborne shot:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize22.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize21.jpg)
-
John,
It does look like a course with a good mix of attractiveness and challenge. I wonder if I can play there.
General Question:
Would any of you looking at these pictures come to the conclusion that the course is over treed and needs a thinning?
-
John,
It does look like a course with a good mix of attractiveness and challenge. I wonder if I can play there.
Carl, the course is 'private' but I don't think it is exceptionally exclusive. You may be able to get the pro from Riverfront to give them a ring. Oh, and you are civil service, no?
General Question:
Would any of you looking at these pictures come to the conclusion that the course is over treed and needs a thinning?
I will hold off on this one to see if anyone else comments.
-
Keep it going, and can you add yardages?
-
Keep it going, and can you add yardages?
I will add yardages in a moment when I post hole #3 photos. I would post them faster, but my camera has crapped out on me and I used my phone (and I don't have my micro card to get them all off at once). So, about one hole at a time is all I can stand to do.
Carl-Since there have been no other takers for the tree question, I will go ahead and answer. Basically, yes, they do need to take out a great number of trees, mostly on the back nine. The trees on the front provide fair hazards where you are penalized but can recover. I have nothing against those kind of trees. They also provide buffers between the holes, because as you can see in the aerials, the holes tend to run very close together. So, on the front nine, the trees are fine. But on the back nine, the trees actually hinder turf growth; therefore a great many of them need to disappear. Holes 15-18 are pretty good, though the tee on 17 is greatly shaded. The rest of the holes, especially the tees, are all quite shaded; none of the tees on holes 10-15 are very good. So, yes, on the back nine, a fairly extensive tree removal needs to happen. I played with a member today and I asked him had a tree removal been discussed, he said that to his knowledge it had not.
-
Hole #3, Par 5, 535 yards:
Tee shot plays downhill and semi-blind. A shot down the left is slightly safer, but a shot up the right side if hit long enough can bound off the large hill that you can see near the small trees. This hole typically plays into the wind, but it is still reachable if you can get a good, level lie in the fairway.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize13.jpg)
This shows the second shot, playing back uphill to the green. If you try to go for the green in two, you must carry the deep bunker on the right, and draw the ball around the greenside bunker on the left and between another greenside bunker right. Add to that the green has a false front and a steep falloff to the left side of the green behind the bunker. So, even with a flat lie, its no easy shot to get the ball onto the green in two shots, as well if should be.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize12.jpg)
The approach shot from about 100 yards. A shot played far up the left like this one will allow the player to have a flat lie, shots played down the right, short of the large fairway bunker will be played from a left-to-right sloping lie. Some of the movement in the green can be seen in this shot, the false front, the left falloff, a ridge running through the center of the green and the fall off beyond the fringe right and long.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize11.jpg)
The depth of the fairway bunker. The face is probably about 4 feet high.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize10.jpg)
Closer view of the green, contours more visible.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize9.jpg)
And a look back down the fairway to show the fairway hills and rolls.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize8.jpg)
And note in the first picture how we are all walking. Yes, it happens.
-
Hole 4, Par 3, 214 yards
This is a fairly difficult par 3 as it plays in the same general direction as hole #3, meaning it plays into the wind normally. The green is mostly flat, of course is should be on a hole of this length that plays into the wind. The hole plays slightly uphill and it is fronted by bunkers right and left, but the width between the bunkers is certainly fair, about 20 yards wide. The green is elevated in the rear about 2 feet, so shots long will roll down the bank a bit.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize15.jpg)
A closer look at the green area:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize14.jpg)
-
Great stuff, thanks for posting John.
I love the greenside bunkering, perhaps not a great example of "Flynn," but interesting nonetheless.
-
Wow, this looks terrific. Battling Eau Claire G&CC for "Greatest Course You've Never Heard Of" honors!
Hold on, Eau Claire Wisconsin?
Not trying to thread jack , just surprised. The in laws are in EC Wi.
-
The bunkers were rebuilt several years ago and to many eyes not in the original Flynn style. I don't think the greens have been touched. There is a slight difference between Flynn's plan and the current course. In the late 40s/early 50s two holes were lost to some Naval construction and a pair of alternate holes were added (the current 13 and 14). But except for an alteration in the routing and the two new holes, the course is very close to Flynn's design.
This 1940s era photo shows the original Flynn course. The first number on each hole is the current hole number; the second is the numbering for the Flynn hole. "x" of course indicates a hole that didn't or doesn't exist.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/cadcaddo/Littlestone/Dscn0432ss-1.jpg)
-
Hole 5, Par 4, 363 yards:
Well designed par 4 that plays back up the hill. While the hole is fairly short, the hill obviously makes it play longer and also generally more difficult on the second shot. The tee shot can be played as long as the player may want, but if played short of the upslope, the player will be left with a flat lie, beyond that it is an uphill lie. Looking at the old aerial, it proves what I thought was the case, that being that many of the trees on the front nine have been semi-recently planted.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize20.jpg)
A look at the uphill second shot from about 100 yards out. From this angle, the left side of the green is obscured, as is the left side bunker.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize18.jpg)
Looking down on the green from above the left side bunker. There is a bunker short right as well, and a grass-type bunker abutting the bunker on the right, which, as I suspected, was originally a sand bunker that has since been covered.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize17.jpg)
An up-close look at the green. I intended to show the ridge/tier that runs down the center of the green perpendicular to the line of play, but the picture did not turn out as I wanted.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize16.jpg)
Going to the 1940's aerial, I did think it was a slight oddity with the current 7th playing back to the pro shop, but given there the range is and the 'club' part of the course over on that side of the street, I actually thought the current front nine may have been the original back nine, with the would-be 16th playing back close to the clubhouse. As far as having to add in new holes, I must say that the course may be better with the current 13th and 14th than the old 3rd and 4th. 13 and 14 are very good holes, as is the present 12th for that matter. Those two holes have great movement in the land, where the original holes would have played straight downhill (#3) and then straight back uphill (#4). There is very little land movement, at least at the present time, in the land that those two holes occupied.
-
John,
The ground for Flynn's 3rd isn't all that great but I think his 4th was one of the best holes on the course - long par 4 with a fall-off on the right and good fairway bunker positions. I also believe that the current 14th green is on exactly the same site as Flynn's 14th - although it may have been altered to accommodate the new line of approach.
-
John,
The ground for Flynn's 3rd isn't all that great but I think his 4th was one of the best holes on the course - long par 4 with a fall-off on the right and good fairway bunker positions. I also believe that the current 14th green is on exactly the same site as Flynn's 14th - although it may have been altered to accommodate the new line of approach.
Craig-I believe you are correct, the current 14th green looks to be a reuse of the original 14th green with some bunker placement changed. The way they changed the green for #14 is really good with the bunker on the centerline of the green short. Really makes you think about going for the green in two.
-
Hole 4, Par 6, 333 yards:
This hole plays substantially downhill off the tee. Typically this hole plays into the wind, but in my 4th round here, it played downwind. It plays tremendously different depending on the wind. Into the wind, it is a difficult tee shot because of how long the ball is in the air. The fairway bunkers are definitely in play from the back tees with a driver for the longer players. Downwind, the green is reachable off the tee. This hole is a good driver/wedge hole. Not a whole lot of strategy overall, but it has a lot of options depending on the wind.
View from the back tee. This is another hole, along with #2, that plays far different for men and women. The back tees are 333, 'regular' men's tees are 328 and forwards tees are 323. So, in calm conditions, given the downhill nature of the hole, an average male golfers can have 100 yards left into the hole, but even the longer lady club players would struggle to have a similar yardage into the green. There is a forward 'Ladies 9 hole' tee at 282 yards, but even at that range, the hole plays vastly different for ladies and men.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize25.jpg)
View from near the forward 'ladies 9 hole' tee. Gives a much clearer view of the fairway, hazards and potential strategy on the hole.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize24.jpg)
View of the green from the approach area, roughly 75 yards from the green.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize23.jpg)
-
Hole 7, Par 3, 180 yards:
Fairly straight forward mid-length par 3. Green has some fair movement and is quite elevated above the ground in front of the green. Shots short will roll back 10 yards or more and be about 6 feet below the putting surface. And this is the only hole that really requires a carry over water (#1 does but its only about 125 yards from even the back tees; the forward and second forward tees are on the other side)
View from the back/men's tee
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize27.jpg)
View from the forward tee gives a better look at the pond and height of the green
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize26.jpg)
Short of the green, at the bottom of the fall-off. I am about 6' tall and the edge of the green was at or slightly above my eye level
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize29.jpg)
Another view from short, looking up on the green showing the contours of the green. Like a few others on the course, this is a two tiered green with the ridge running perpendicular to the line of play (oh, why can't more greens have tiers with the divide parallel to the line of play?)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize28.jpg)
-
Hole 8, Par 4, 454 yards:
Nice, long par 4 that normally plays into the wind, making it a real tough test. The drive can either hug the right side and have possibly a shorter shot into the green or go down the left, with a draw ideally, and possibly get additional roll off a hill and the better line into the green. However, a ball that does not go quite far enough down the left side will leave the player with a very difficult sidehill/downhill lie into an elevated green. The green is well protected, being cut out of the side of a hill and having a bunker slightly short of the green to the left and two tiered bunkers right. Behind the bunkers on the right, the green falls off fairly steeply down towards the 9th tee.
Tee Shot:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize34.jpg)
Second Shot from the left side:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize31.jpg)
Closer view of the green site:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize30.jpg)
-
Well, even though interest in this course/thread has obviously waned to zero, I will finish up posting the pictures, for the few who look at them, enjoy.
Hole 9, Par 4
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize131.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize121.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize111.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/downsize101.jpg)
Hole 10, Par 4
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101539.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101545.jpg)
Hole 11, Par 4
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101554.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101558.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101601.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101604.jpg)
Hole 12, Par 4
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101607.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101613.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101614.jpg)
Hole 13, Par 4
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101623a.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101627.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101627a.jpg)
Hole 14, Par 5
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101637.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101639.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101641.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101646.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101654.jpg)
Hole 15, Par 4
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101658.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101705.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101705a.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101709.jpg)
Hole 16, Par 4
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101712.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101720.jpg)
Hole 17, Par 3
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101726.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101728.jpg)
Hole 18, Par 4
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101736.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101739.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/US%20Naval%20Academy/0906101743.jpg)
-
Thanks, this brought back a lot of memories.
-
To me , Flynn's genius is setting up recovery shots to well designed green complexes. Trees PLANTED along the sides of fairways ruins this wonderful design concept.
-
To me , Flynn's genius is setting up recovery shots to well designed green complexes. Trees PLANTED along the sides of fairways ruins this wonderful design concept.
Mike-While I agree with you that it likely would have been better without the added trees, I can see the practical reason for doing it. They were added between holes 1 and 6, 3 and 5, 5 and 6 and a few along the road on 9, 15 and 18. In all cases, it would seem those trees were added for safety. It is fairly easy to hit into the adjacent fairways on those holes; some guys hit from the 1st tee into the 6th fairway as I was playing along, I played with a guy who near shanked one into the 5th fairway from the 6th tee and I hit some shots from the 5th tee that might have ended up in the 3rd fairway if not for the trees. So, architecturally they might not be the best, they are better from a safety perspective.
-
Flynn didn't do his job if trees are needed for safety.
-
Mike-does it occur to you that the safety concerns of today are probably far different than the concerns of 85 years ago?
-
Flynn spoke of courses being 7500 yards some day. He should know that this would mean balls going farther off line then 80 years ago.
-
Flynn spoke of courses being 7500 yards some day. He should know that this would mean balls going farther off line then 80 years ago.
Something else to think of about this course, that I did not think of before I went back and looked at an aerial just now and remembering the rounds I played, it would seem they may have added in some new back tees which would have forced the 'average' landing area farther back or forward depending on the length of hitter, making the new landing area in a spot that is not as wide as the intended landing area. Given the land constraints, if they did in fact build new tees, the only way to make the new landing areas safer would be to add trees to deflect high shots. After all, bunkers would prevent balls from ROLLING into the next fairway while trees would prevent balls from FLYING into the next fairway, and I don't think I've heard of any serious injuries from balls striking people after rolling for 20 yards; flying balls injure people quite often.
-
John
Thanks for the tour. Mayday is right, rip out loads of trees (I have never been one to believe that trees make golf safer) and there looks to be a lovely course there.
Ciao
-
John
Thanks for the tour. Mayday is right, rip out loads of trees (I have never been one to believe that trees make golf safer) and there looks to be a lovely course there.
Ciao
Sean-You are correct, there are many trees that need to be removed. On the back nine it is actually possible to see a 'sun line' in the turf where bermuda can't grow on a certain side of this line because it doesn't get enough sun. Pretty much every hole on the back nine could stand some serious removal. The front is a different story. The trees are not generally intrusive on the front nine, #1 and #8 probably have the thickest stands of trees and both those holes have playing corridors of 80+ yards.