[Anthony Fowler]

Several current threads have mentioned the 11th at Merion as one of the greatest holes in golf.  What makes this hole so great and so memorable?

In my opinion, it is the worst hole on a truly great course.  It requires two do-or-die shots with very little strategy, and the green is less interesting than most others on the course (which provide quite a high bar).  The player must hit a ~220 shot to a very narrow, blind fairway, and then must execute a ~120 shot to a small target with trouble on all sides.  The only opportunity the player has to make a strategic decision is if he/she misses the fairway.  Do you go for the green or chip it sideways (the latter is correct for most lies in that rough)? 

Obviously there is a lot of history on this hole with Bobby Jones clinching the grand slam here, and the green site is photogenic.  What are the other merits of the hole, and why is it so famous (especially compared to the other 17 on the property)?

[TEPaul]

"What makes this hole so great and so memorable?"



Pretty much the intensity of the second (or approach shot) and there's some pretty interesting history, including in top flight tournaments, that testifies to that fact.

The tee shot in a strategic sense very much sets up that approach because if you don't put it in the fairway, with the rough the approach shot would be pretty thought-provoking and really intense for even a golfer as good as a Tiger Woods.

As for the tee shot being blind---so what? It's about the only real blind shot at Merion East.

[TEPaul]

As for Jones winning the Grand Slam on that hole that's sure significant but the probably more interesting significant event is how and why Bobby Cruikshank essentially lost the US Open on that hole! 

[Mark Chaplin]

Anthony - for me it's very length makes it great. For the average player here is a hole that oozes history and we have the opportunity to pull off two medium/short shots, 18 at St Andrews is in the same vein.

Not many of us can drill a 2 iron after a long tee shot so have little chance to follow in the footsteps of the best on many holes such as 18 Merion, The Road Hole and 18 Royal Birkdale

[Chip Gaskins]

In my opinion, it is the worst hole on a truly great course. 

It requires two do-or-die shots with very little strategy, and the green is less interesting than most others on the course (which provide quite a high bar).  The player must hit a ~220 shot to a very narrow, blind fairway, and then must execute a ~120 shot to a small target with trouble on all sides.  The only opportunity the player has to make a strategic decision is if he/she misses the fairway.

uh oh, banishment to the GCA.com penalty box for you....I'm the only other guy in there beside you :-)

[Mike Cirba]

Oh Chip, you only got a 5-minute Major, which was rather lenient, I'd say. 

[Chip Gaskins]

As for the tee shot being blind---so what? It's about the only real blind shot at Merion East.

That is, other than the second shot on #4 and and the tee shot on #7 and the tee shot on #13 and the second shot on #16 and the tee shot on #18, but other than that, yes I see your point

[Anthony Fowler]

Tom Paul,
I agree that the hole is hard.  17 at Sawgrass has fouled up the chances of many great players to win a big tournament, but it's not a great hole.  Also, I don't mind so much that the tee shot is blind.  That makes the the hole trickier on the first couple plays, but it doesn't add or subtract much from the hole.

I don't understand your point about the tee shot being strategic; it strikes me as the opposite of strategic.  If you miss the fairway, you get a 1 stroke penalty.  You wouldn't say that the drive on 12 at Torrey Pines is strategic, because if you miss the fairway, you won't be able to hit the green in 2.

I agree with your point on the strategic decision if you miss the fairway.  Tiger has an interesting decision to make if he's in the rough, but you and I are probably better off just chipping sideways.

Mark,
I like your point about the length.  There are many great holes that the average golfer cannot experience because of physical limitations.  Even still, aren't there many greater short par 4's than 11 at Merion.  How about 9 at Cypress, 10 at Riviera, or even 10 at Merion.  These are much more interesting holes on which a great player can make a 6 (just like Jones did on the 10th before he clinched the grand slam) and a hacker can make a 3.

[TEPaul]

Chip:

Good points on the blind shots on #4 and #16. Did you know when Wilson and Co. built #13 green there was definitely nothing about that green surface that was blind from the tee? Can you imagine who or what changed it?

[JESII]

#11 is only ever listed on those rankings because of the Jones' connection.

I see it as a good hole on a great course which has four or five holes of comparable length that are better strategically and visually.

[TEPaul]

"I don't understand your point about the tee shot being strategic; it strikes me as the opposite of strategic.  If you miss the fairway, you get a 1 stroke penalty.  You wouldn't say that the drive on 12 at Torrey Pines is strategic, because if you miss the fairway, you won't be able to hit the green in 2."

AnthonyF:

That's an interesting point on your part and frankly it's just an interesting all around point.

First of all I don't really know what-all you consider "strategy" but we may look at it differently.

To me, basically the term and definition means and connotes to me "choices"----choices between to say different directions to hit the ball in but it also means to me different distances to try to hit the ball and obviously that connotes choice of club.

On #11 choice of club off the tee has been really central to me. I've never been long but I was generally pretty straight with everything but I felt I was a whole lot straighter more consistently with a long iron than a wood and so on #11 even after playing it over the years maybe hundreds of times I do not recall ever having hit anything other than a long iron off that tee.

Once you play that hole a couple of times it is not hard to figure out where the fairway and its sides are and so the premium startegically is just putting it in the fairway and not so much the distance of the second shot if in the fairway.

That hole and its tee shot has a nuance that is something like the tee shot on the same hole at Pine Valley----eg you can take a driver and bomb it right down to the flat or take an iron and sort of turbo boost it off the decline of the hill down to the flat and mostly you don't end up too far apart compared to say a driver versus iron on a flat piece of ground throughout.

[Tom_Doak]

#11 is only ever listed on those rankings because of the Jones' connection.

I see it as a good hole on a great course which has four or five holes of comparable length that are better strategically and visually.

I would agree with this point of view.  It's a great second shot, but not such a great golf hole.  Then again, you could say the same about the eighth at Pebble Beach, and it always makes those lists, too. 

[Dan Herrmann]

All I can tell you is that the Cobbs Creek terror factor plays heavily into the 2nd shot.  And gawd help you if your tee shot is in the right rough, especially on the downhill.

Or - how'd you like to put your approach shot into the bunker to the right of the green with a hole cut over on the left. 

I think the green complex is brilliant, and the history of the hole takes it to the next level.

[Mike Sweeney]

#11 is only ever listed on those rankings because of the Jones' connection.

I see it as a good hole on a great course which has four or five holes of comparable length that are better strategically and visually.

I would agree with this point of view.  It's a great second shot, but not such a great golf hole.  Then again, you could say the same about the eighth at Pebble Beach, and it always makes those lists, too. 

Interesting comparison. These are two of my favorite holes in golf and the Jones thing is not a big deal for me. As Tom Paul says, I like the intensity of the second shots despite my frequent inability to execute.

[Willie_Dow]

The great strategy of the hole is the second shot.  Best is from the left side of the fairway.

Cut the fairway close to the water on the left, the stream, and strategy comes into play !

[ChipOat]

The "worst hole".........?

I agree that if Jones had closed out Homans on another hole, #11 wouldn't get the attention it does.

But "worst" hole?  Or "weakest"??  Or "most overrated"

Not in my book.

[JNC Lyon]

I would not say the 11th is the worst hole at Merion.  Yet I was not particularly impressed by the hole either.  The green site is very cool indeed.  However, I believe the hole is too narrow to allow any strategy.  The hole is very penal.  The player's only option is to hit the fairway and hit the green.  Otherwise, big numbers appear quickly. 

This penal nature makes the hole less interesting than many of the holes on the course.  In particular, the short par fours at 7 and 10 are far superior and much more strategic in my book.

11 at Merion is very neat.  Yet I guess I just do not "get it" the way I get much of the course.  It is good to have one or two penal holes on a golf course to separate the men from the boys.  11 and 18 do this very well at Merion.  Yet I feel like these types of holes should not be considered the greatest holes on the course.  It is clear to me that these two holes only get their status from their history, not their architecture.

[TEPaul]

"Cut the fairway close to the water on the left, the stream, and strategy comes into play !"

Willie:

That's true and that's the way it originally was. There was a lot more fariway on the right too and fairway on both sides of the meandering creek as it approached and went around the green. I just know, though, and probably unfortunately to many if they restored all that a lot of good players would claim the hole was way too easy. Orginally the fairway landing area for the tee shot was probably 60+ yards wide and the fairway area all over that hole was probably a good four times+ as much as it is now.

[Kevin Pallier]

Anthony

For mine that hole is all about precision.

You need to hit a decent drive to get yourself in position for your second. Once there you then have to have execute properly to hit the green at the right distance missing both the bunker and the creek. I thought I hit a great second in there only to just catch the creek.

Whilst I wasn't good enough to make my par - I loved the hole.

[David_Elvins]

Several current threads have mentioned the 11th at Merion as one of the greatest holes in golf.  What makes this hole so great and so memorable?

Anthony,

I like the 11th but would not consider it the most memorable on the property.  I think quite often the hardest, most penal shots on a golf course are the most memorable and quite often make for great golf holes.  Of course, the key to really great golf course architecture is to blend these holes into holes that make other demands.  And in this respect, the 11th at Merion fits perfectly into the course. 

[TEPaul]

Although a small point since none of us ever saw it, I would also say the 11th hole of Merion is probably a big improvement over Merion East's original 11th l

[Willie_Dow]

Tom - What if the rough on the right was brought in to keep the width of fairway the same ?

[TEPaul]

"Tom - What if the rough on the right was brought in to keep the width of fairway the same ?"


Willie:

That would certainly be an option which would strategically highlight the creek on the left more but it would probably create some additional problems in the opinions of some----eg both strategically with that green and actually with potential liability with golfers coming up blind on the 12th. Given the fact there is a lot of potentially usable width down on that lower section for some serious right to left fairway width (side to side), there are some additional conceptual/strategic options that could be considered. Matter of fact, just considering them all might be something of a "classroom" in an "architectural/strategic workup." I'll go over what I mean by that when I get over to the barn/office and to a computer that has print size large enough for me to actually read. The old eyes just ain't what they used to be, don't you know?

[Tim Nugent]

Usually stay away from Merion threads - as they seem to become spats.  That said, can't the "terror factor" of a demanding second shot transcend to, what should be an otherwise routine tee shot,  and impart some additional stress on the tee shot?  And, if, in the case at hand, if that tee shot is not readily visable, make it that much more demanding?  Isn't the 11th just a good example of using the 2nd shot to affect the nerves of the first shot in a synergistic manner.
BTW - always wondered how an alternate tee left of the trees (by 12 green) would play.  It seems that distance and accuracy would be brought into play as the angle into the approach would have to be aquired. Granted the walk from 10 would be longer.

[JESII]

There are just some shots everyone should have the opportunity to hit, and the approach to #11 is one of them...having it be your third will certainly diminish the thrill for alot of people...sort of the way people think about the 17th at Sawgrass or even better, the 16th at Cypress before the round begins, but unlike the par 3's, the player needs to hit a very good first shot to have the chance to hit the thrilling shot...why not just make the fairway 60 yards wide again so most everyone will have the chance to hit the approach shot?

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