Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Anthony Fowler on March 06, 2010, 01:02:31 PM
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Several current threads have mentioned the 11th at Merion as one of the greatest holes in golf. What makes this hole so great and so memorable?
In my opinion, it is the worst hole on a truly great course. It requires two do-or-die shots with very little strategy, and the green is less interesting than most others on the course (which provide quite a high bar). The player must hit a ~220 shot to a very narrow, blind fairway, and then must execute a ~120 shot to a small target with trouble on all sides. The only opportunity the player has to make a strategic decision is if he/she misses the fairway. Do you go for the green or chip it sideways (the latter is correct for most lies in that rough)?
Obviously there is a lot of history on this hole with Bobby Jones clinching the grand slam here, and the green site is photogenic. What are the other merits of the hole, and why is it so famous (especially compared to the other 17 on the property)?
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"What makes this hole so great and so memorable?"
Pretty much the intensity of the second (or approach shot) and there's some pretty interesting history, including in top flight tournaments, that testifies to that fact.
The tee shot in a strategic sense very much sets up that approach because if you don't put it in the fairway, with the rough the approach shot would be pretty thought-provoking and really intense for even a golfer as good as a Tiger Woods.
As for the tee shot being blind---so what? It's about the only real blind shot at Merion East.
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As for Jones winning the Grand Slam on that hole that's sure significant but the probably more interesting significant event is how and why Bobby Cruikshank essentially lost the US Open on that hole! ;)
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Anthony - for me it's very length makes it great. For the average player here is a hole that oozes history and we have the opportunity to pull off two medium/short shots, 18 at St Andrews is in the same vein.
Not many of us can drill a 2 iron after a long tee shot so have little chance to follow in the footsteps of the best on many holes such as 18 Merion, The Road Hole and 18 Royal Birkdale
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In my opinion, it is the worst hole on a truly great course.
It requires two do-or-die shots with very little strategy, and the green is less interesting than most others on the course (which provide quite a high bar). The player must hit a ~220 shot to a very narrow, blind fairway, and then must execute a ~120 shot to a small target with trouble on all sides. The only opportunity the player has to make a strategic decision is if he/she misses the fairway.
uh oh, banishment to the GCA.com penalty box for you....I'm the only other guy in there beside you :-)
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Oh Chip, you only got a 5-minute Major, which was rather lenient, I'd say. ;) ;D
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As for the tee shot being blind---so what? It's about the only real blind shot at Merion East.
That is, other than the second shot on #4 and and the tee shot on #7 and the tee shot on #13 and the second shot on #16 and the tee shot on #18, but other than that, yes I see your point ;D
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Tom Paul,
I agree that the hole is hard. 17 at Sawgrass has fouled up the chances of many great players to win a big tournament, but it's not a great hole. Also, I don't mind so much that the tee shot is blind. That makes the the hole trickier on the first couple plays, but it doesn't add or subtract much from the hole.
I don't understand your point about the tee shot being strategic; it strikes me as the opposite of strategic. If you miss the fairway, you get a 1 stroke penalty. You wouldn't say that the drive on 12 at Torrey Pines is strategic, because if you miss the fairway, you won't be able to hit the green in 2.
I agree with your point on the strategic decision if you miss the fairway. Tiger has an interesting decision to make if he's in the rough, but you and I are probably better off just chipping sideways.
Mark,
I like your point about the length. There are many great holes that the average golfer cannot experience because of physical limitations. Even still, aren't there many greater short par 4's than 11 at Merion. How about 9 at Cypress, 10 at Riviera, or even 10 at Merion. These are much more interesting holes on which a great player can make a 6 (just like Jones did on the 10th before he clinched the grand slam) and a hacker can make a 3.
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Chip:
Good points on the blind shots on #4 and #16. Did you know when Wilson and Co. built #13 green there was definitely nothing about that green surface that was blind from the tee? Can you imagine who ;) or what changed it?
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#11 is only ever listed on those rankings because of the Jones' connection.
I see it as a good hole on a great course which has four or five holes of comparable length that are better strategically and visually.
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"I don't understand your point about the tee shot being strategic; it strikes me as the opposite of strategic. If you miss the fairway, you get a 1 stroke penalty. You wouldn't say that the drive on 12 at Torrey Pines is strategic, because if you miss the fairway, you won't be able to hit the green in 2."
AnthonyF:
That's an interesting point on your part and frankly it's just an interesting all around point.
First of all I don't really know what-all you consider "strategy" but we may look at it differently.
To me, basically the term and definition means and connotes to me "choices"----choices between to say different directions to hit the ball in but it also means to me different distances to try to hit the ball and obviously that connotes choice of club.
On #11 choice of club off the tee has been really central to me. I've never been long but I was generally pretty straight with everything but I felt I was a whole lot straighter more consistently with a long iron than a wood and so on #11 even after playing it over the years maybe hundreds of times I do not recall ever having hit anything other than a long iron off that tee.
Once you play that hole a couple of times it is not hard to figure out where the fairway and its sides are and so the premium startegically is just putting it in the fairway and not so much the distance of the second shot if in the fairway.
That hole and its tee shot has a nuance that is something like the tee shot on the same hole at Pine Valley----eg you can take a driver and bomb it right down to the flat or take an iron and sort of turbo boost it off the decline of the hill down to the flat and mostly you don't end up too far apart compared to say a driver versus iron on a flat piece of ground throughout.
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#11 is only ever listed on those rankings because of the Jones' connection.
I see it as a good hole on a great course which has four or five holes of comparable length that are better strategically and visually.
I would agree with this point of view. It's a great second shot, but not such a great golf hole. Then again, you could say the same about the eighth at Pebble Beach, and it always makes those lists, too.
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All I can tell you is that the Cobbs Creek terror factor plays heavily into the 2nd shot. And gawd help you if your tee shot is in the right rough, especially on the downhill.
Or - how'd you like to put your approach shot into the bunker to the right of the green with a hole cut over on the left.
I think the green complex is brilliant, and the history of the hole takes it to the next level.
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#11 is only ever listed on those rankings because of the Jones' connection.
I see it as a good hole on a great course which has four or five holes of comparable length that are better strategically and visually.
I would agree with this point of view. It's a great second shot, but not such a great golf hole. Then again, you could say the same about the eighth at Pebble Beach, and it always makes those lists, too.
Interesting comparison. These are two of my favorite holes in golf and the Jones thing is not a big deal for me. As Tom Paul says, I like the intensity of the second shots despite my frequent inability to execute.
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The great strategy of the hole is the second shot. Best is from the left side of the fairway.
Cut the fairway close to the water on the left, the stream, and strategy comes into play !
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The "worst hole".........?
I agree that if Jones had closed out Homans on another hole, #11 wouldn't get the attention it does.
But "worst" hole? Or "weakest"?? Or "most overrated"???
Not in my book.
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I would not say the 11th is the worst hole at Merion. Yet I was not particularly impressed by the hole either. The green site is very cool indeed. However, I believe the hole is too narrow to allow any strategy. The hole is very penal. The player's only option is to hit the fairway and hit the green. Otherwise, big numbers appear quickly.
This penal nature makes the hole less interesting than many of the holes on the course. In particular, the short par fours at 7 and 10 are far superior and much more strategic in my book.
11 at Merion is very neat. Yet I guess I just do not "get it" the way I get much of the course. It is good to have one or two penal holes on a golf course to separate the men from the boys. 11 and 18 do this very well at Merion. Yet I feel like these types of holes should not be considered the greatest holes on the course. It is clear to me that these two holes only get their status from their history, not their architecture.
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"Cut the fairway close to the water on the left, the stream, and strategy comes into play !"
Willie:
That's true and that's the way it originally was. There was a lot more fariway on the right too and fairway on both sides of the meandering creek as it approached and went around the green. I just know, though, and probably unfortunately to many if they restored all that a lot of good players would claim the hole was way too easy. Orginally the fairway landing area for the tee shot was probably 60+ yards wide and the fairway area all over that hole was probably a good four times+ as much as it is now.
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Anthony
For mine that hole is all about precision.
You need to hit a decent drive to get yourself in position for your second. Once there you then have to have execute properly to hit the green at the right distance missing both the bunker and the creek. I thought I hit a great second in there only to just catch the creek.
Whilst I wasn't good enough to make my par - I loved the hole.
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Several current threads have mentioned the 11th at Merion as one of the greatest holes in golf. What makes this hole so great and so memorable?
Anthony,
I like the 11th but would not consider it the most memorable on the property. I think quite often the hardest, most penal shots on a golf course are the most memorable and quite often make for great golf holes. Of course, the key to really great golf course architecture is to blend these holes into holes that make other demands. And in this respect, the 11th at Merion fits perfectly into the course.
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Although a small point since none of us ever saw it, I would also say the 11th hole of Merion is probably a big improvement over Merion East's original 11th l
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Tom - What if the rough on the right was brought in to keep the width of fairway the same ?
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"Tom - What if the rough on the right was brought in to keep the width of fairway the same ?"
Willie:
That would certainly be an option which would strategically highlight the creek on the left more but it would probably create some additional problems in the opinions of some----eg both strategically with that green and actually with potential liability with golfers coming up blind on the 12th. Given the fact there is a lot of potentially usable width down on that lower section for some serious right to left fairway width (side to side), there are some additional conceptual/strategic options that could be considered. Matter of fact, just considering them all might be something of a "classroom" in an "architectural/strategic workup." I'll go over what I mean by that when I get over to the barn/office and to a computer that has print size large enough for me to actually read. The old eyes just ain't what they used to be, don't you know? ;)
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Usually stay away from Merion threads - as they seem to become spats. That said, can't the "terror factor" of a demanding second shot transcend to, what should be an otherwise routine tee shot, and impart some additional stress on the tee shot? And, if, in the case at hand, if that tee shot is not readily visable, make it that much more demanding? Isn't the 11th just a good example of using the 2nd shot to affect the nerves of the first shot in a synergistic manner.
BTW - always wondered how an alternate tee left of the trees (by 12 green) would play. It seems that distance and accuracy would be brought into play as the angle into the approach would have to be aquired. Granted the walk from 10 would be longer.
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There are just some shots everyone should have the opportunity to hit, and the approach to #11 is one of them...having it be your third will certainly diminish the thrill for alot of people...sort of the way people think about the 17th at Sawgrass or even better, the 16th at Cypress before the round begins, but unlike the par 3's, the player needs to hit a very good first shot to have the chance to hit the thrilling shot...why not just make the fairway 60 yards wide again so most everyone will have the chance to hit the approach shot?
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"Usually stay away from Merion threads - as they seem to become spats. That said, can't the "terror factor" of a demanding second shot transcend to, what should be an otherwise routine tee shot, and impart some additional stress on the tee shot? And, if, in the case at hand, if that tee shot is not readily visable, make it that much more demanding? Isn't the 11th just a good example of using the 2nd shot to affect the nerves of the first shot in a synergistic manner.
Tim Nugent:
I'd say absolutely to your points in both questions. Well said (asked).
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Does anyone have any pictures they could post to this thread to show the rough line, blind tee shot, bunker complex, etc.?
Also, I remember a guy I went to college with telling me he saw the U.S. Amateur there back in the late 80s. I can't remember the name of the guy who won it, but he was on the heavy side. But my friend told me he watched player after player at that hole with a wedge in their hand wind up in the water because they couldn't figure out the wind. Does the hole have a sort of Augusta #12 factor to it?
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Does anyone have any pictures they could post to this thread to show the rough line, blind tee shot, bunker complex, etc.?
Also, I remember a guy I went to college with telling me he saw the U.S. Amateur there back in the late 80s. I can't remember the name of the guy who won it, but he was on the heavy side. But my friend told me he watched player after player at that hole with a wedge in their hand wind up in the water because they couldn't figure out the wind. Does the hole have a sort of Augusta #12 factor to it?
I have not seen the course enough to know. However, the green is set down in a valley with a steep hillside long of the green. I would think the wind is very difficult to judge on that second shot.
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Although a small point since none of us ever saw it, I would also say the 11th hole of Merion is probably a big improvement over Merion East's original 11th l
Tom, do you have any old pictures of the original 11th? Is it right that the tee box would have been on the other side of Ardmore Ave and the green was short of the creek? Do you think this hole might have become an exciting drivable par 4 today with the slope feeding a well placed tee shot toward the green? With an interesting green that slopes away from the golfer (and maybe the creek in play left and long), I can imagine a great hole sitting there.
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Does anyone have any pictures they could post to this thread to show the rough line, blind tee shot, bunker complex, etc.?
Also, I remember a guy I went to college with telling me he saw the U.S. Amateur there back in the late 80s. I can't remember the name of the guy who won it, but he was on the heavy side. But my friend told me he watched player after player at that hole with a wedge in their hand wind up in the water because they couldn't figure out the wind. Does the hole have a sort of Augusta #12 factor to it?
No picture but it was Chris Patten from Clemson who won the '89 Am.. Beat Danny Green either 2 &1 or 3 & 1. Played a lot of college golf with Chris--he was a lot of fn to play with and an incredible talent. He also played well in the 1990 Masters.
#11 is completely blind off the tee. I have to admit to being a little disappointed in the hole but only because I was so looking forward to it. The creek is OK but just to the right of it is a chain link fence in pretty poor shape that really detracts visually. I assume its the same fence along the right of 7 but near the green the fence was in sad shape.
If you miss the fairway, you have no chance to hold the green.
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I have a number of good pics of the 11th hole. I'll post a few tomorrow morning.
FWIW: I love the hole. It seems like an easy 4..... but a big number is also easy to make!
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JNC Lyon:
I may have to start a separate thread about #18 at Merion just to give my disagreement with you all the publicity I can.
PLENTY of strategy off the tee and PLENTY of strategy on how you play the approach.
One of the great finishing holes in all of golf, I think. It's reputation doesn't need Hy Peskin's picture for support.
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Here are some pics of the 11th.
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JNC Lyon:
I may have to start a separate thread about #18 at Merion just to give my disagreement with you all the publicity I can.
PLENTY of strategy off the tee and PLENTY of strategy on how you play the approach.
One of the great finishing holes in all of golf, I think. It's reputation doesn't need Hy Peskin's picture for support.
What do you think the strategy is on 18 off the tee? I like the hole, but I do not think there are many options other than a long drive down the middle. The land is great, the green site is very cool, but I think the strategic aspect hole comes up a little short. I would love to hear your thoughts.
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Put the 11th in context: an exacting second shot to a smallish green and knowing that it's likely your last approach shot with a short iron make it a great hole. Not exactly a receptive green either; last time I played there I had a 9 in and though I hit the green only to see it rolled back right into the fringe.
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JNC,
For what my opinion is worth, the 18th green is probably better approached from just short of the crest of the hill than anywhere in the next 50 yards beyond it, so many players will want to dial back their distance. Also, when doing that, the right side of the fairway provides a slightly flatter stance which helps in trying to hit a high soft shot from 200+ yards. Curious what else Chip would add to the tee shot strategies...
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Joe,
Those pics are terrific. Thanks for sharing as they show a hole from many angles that usually only gets photographed from the stereotypical approach view.
They need to "rough up" that bunker grass-face a bit, though. ;)
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Several current threads have mentioned the 11th at Merion as one of the greatest holes in golf. What makes this hole so great and so memorable?
In my opinion, it is the worst hole on a truly great course. It requires two do-or-die shots with very little strategy, and the green is less interesting than most others on the course (which provide quite a high bar). The player must hit a ~220 shot to a very narrow, blind fairway, and then must execute a ~120 shot to a small target with trouble on all sides.
Anthony, the required drive you reference is shorter than 220 due to the downhill nature of the hole and while the DZ isn't visible, the golfer has a pretty good sense of where the fairway/DZ resides if he looks at the visible rough lines, terrain and backround.
As to the 120 yard approach you mention, with a shot that short or shorter, there should be a premium on accuracy.
I don't find the hole overly demanding and I don't understand why you feel that a par is a right of entitlement on that hole, or any hole.
The only opportunity the player has to make a strategic decision is if he/she misses the fairway.
So you don't think club selection on the tee is a strategic decision ?
Do you go for the green or chip it sideways (the latter is correct for most lies in that rough)?
There are other decisions, namely, do you go left or short of the green.
Obviously there is a lot of history on this hole with Bobby Jones clinching the grand slam here, and the green site is photogenic. What are the other merits of the hole, and why is it so famous (especially compared to the other 17 on the property)?
Jones's milestone is certainly part of the story, but, I don't know if it's any more famous than # 1, # 3, # 4, # 5, # 9, # 10, # 12, # 16, # 17 or # 18
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JNC,
For what my opinion is worth, the 18th green is probably better approached from just short of the crest of the hill than anywhere in the next 50 yards beyond it, so many players will want to dial back their distance. Also, when doing that, the right side of the fairway provides a slightly flatter stance which helps in trying to hit a high soft shot from 200+ yards. Curious what else Chip would add to the tee shot strategies...
A little late on the response. However, my sense is that such strategy of "dialing back" is only relevant on midrange and shorter par fours. 18 is 500 Yards from all the way back. My sense is that most players will want to get as far down as possible and not worry about the elevation change. Even from the 450 tees, I think MOST players will just bomb driver. Furthermore, laying back from the downslope still leaves the player with a difficult lie. The ball will be well above the feet. That was the impressive thing about Ben Hogan's shot for me. He was hitting a 1-iron, and it was from a lie that is difficult for a 7-iron shot. The approach might be from a better lie from farther back. However, the tradeoff is not enough to club down off the tee. Hence, I still see very little strategy on that tee shot.
Again, I still think 18 at Merion is a good finisher. I do not think all golf holes need to be inherently strategic. The quarry, the swooping terrain, and the elusive green site make Merion's 18th a unique hole. However, I would rank 15, 16, and 17, among others, ahead of the 18th.
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JNC,
No sweat on the timing.
I'll respond to the first paragraph a little later, but for now maybe you can elaborate on how #16 exceeds #18 in any category.
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I think the second shot at 16 is one of a kind. The quarry gives the hole a look that is completely unique. While the land is wild at 18, there are still other holes like it. Not so with 16.
I think the internal contours of the 16th green are more interesting. I probably did not get a close enough look at 18, but the green did not appear nearly as interesting as the 16th. The hole plays completely differently depending on the pin position.
I love the quirky nature of the 16th. It gives the hole a charm that the 18th does not possess. The string of bunkers to the right the green is very neat. It fits into Merion's collection of odd but fun features.
Finally, I like that the 16th has an out for the weaker player. A short hitter can play around the quarry to the right and find the green easily in three shots. The only option for a short hitter on 18 is Paul Runyan's strategy of chipping down to the forward tee. As much as I love Little Poison, I do not think his option makes the hole less unreasonable for short hitters.
I appreciate that 16 is not strategic off the tee. It does not present the tradeoffs and decisions that holes like 5, 7, 10, or 15 certainly do. Yet for the reasons above, I prefer it to the closing hole.
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Thanks JNC, that's good stuff and I can't disagree with any of it other than the people that go around to the right are more likely reaching the green in at least 4 but that's besides the point. #18 doesn't really give that player an option at all does it?
As to the tee shot options on 18 - the lay back option is a good suggestion for top players. I didn't see the Walker Cup much so don't know, but if I were caddying in a good amateur (or better) tournament I would strongly suggest my guy lay back. If conditions are so favorable (firm and/or downwind) that it seems realistic to get down close to the bottom of the hill I'd change, but if the best the player can realistically expect to do is 20 - 40 yards beyond the crest they'd be better off laying back.
Once I've talked you into laying back, the preferred angle is an interesting decision. I believe the right portion of the fairway is somewhat flatter, but the left offers a better look into the green, even if only slightly.
Regardless, this is a hole a good player should be looking to make a 4 on and the long iron from the top of the hill carries less risk than the mid iron from the rough on the downslope.
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8) 8) 8)
Number 11 is the most reminiscent of the shots needed on the other Merion , the West. Lots of shots like this over there, where accuracy trumps distance and power.
I'm a fan of the tee shot on eleven although always think rough should not be so hard as to make the option pitch out or pitch out , this is certainly the case at Merion the last few times I played the hole. It was fairway or no choice.
As to blind shots the fairway on number four is blind for me :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( it always moves after I hit the tee shot
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Thanks JNC, that's good stuff and I can't disagree with any of it other than the people that go around to the right are more likely reaching the green in at least 4 but that's besides the point. #18 doesn't really give that player an option at all does it?
As to the tee shot options on 18 - the lay back option is a good suggestion for top players. I didn't see the Walker Cup much so don't know, but if I were caddying in a good amateur (or better) tournament I would strongly suggest my guy lay back. If conditions are so favorable (firm and/or downwind) that it seems realistic to get down close to the bottom of the hill I'd change, but if the best the player can realistically expect to do is 20 - 40 yards beyond the crest they'd be better off laying back.
Once I've talked you into laying back, the preferred angle is an interesting decision. I believe the right portion of the fairway is somewhat flatter, but the left offers a better look into the green, even if only slightly.
Regardless, this is a hole a good player should be looking to make a 4 on and the long iron from the top of the hill carries less risk than the mid iron from the rough on the downslope.
The fairway 18 is very narrow, and it plays even more narrow due to the right-to-left. There may be tradeoffs between the left and right side. Yet I would not consider those options on the tee. At that stage in the round, on a brutal par four with a narrow fairway, I am just trying to get the ball in the fairway. It is hard to choose a side of the fairway on a hole like Merion's 18th. Again I think the tee shot decisions apply only to a small percentage of the population. I see your points on the downslope versus the flat lies. However, I still do not think these features are enough to put the 18th in the top tier of holes at Merion.