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Phil Benedict

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Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« on: December 16, 2008, 10:10:39 AM »
Tom Doak's OM thread talks about how resorts need to employ multiple architects to maximize their commercial appeal.  Yet Kohler has four courses by a single architect, yet appears to do quite well.  Is this because of:

1.  The quality of the courses

2.  The central location

3.  Amenities and overall resort quality

4.  Crafty marketing including procuring a major

Along with Bandon, Kohler is probably the most successful destination golf resort built in the US in the last 20 years, but it accounts for about 1% of the discussion time on GCA that Bandon gets.

Anthony Gray

Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2008, 10:15:40 AM »


  Phil,

 All of the above. Would it be as popular without the press of the PGA Championship?

    Anthony


JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2008, 10:16:13 AM »
Phil,

The only knock on Kohler is that they didn't build one moderately difficult golf course.  With four golf courses, you would think they would build one typical resort course.   It's hard for me to see how a 20-handicap would have a good time there.

Andy Troeger

Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2008, 10:20:25 AM »
Phil,
All of the above really. Its much easier to get to, it certainly has a good reputation nationally, the resort is very nice, and the courses are excellent. Perhaps they don't compare to Bandon, but I think people who have the funds to go to Kohler can probably afford to go just about anywhere.

I've said this before, but this website's architectural focus by no means encompasses all that is good in the golf design world.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2008, 10:25:11 AM »
JW, I've been to Kohler twice with my boss, and he enjoyed both trips (he's a 26 at best).  The River Course was too tough for him, but from the correct tees the Straits and Irish Courses were very playable for him and the other high handicappers we were with. . .  

I also don't believe that the majority of people who visit Kohler give a rat's ass that the PGA was there.  Great accommodations, impeccably maintained courses (sure, we all wish the Straits played f & f, but it's still a lot of fun when the wind's blowing) are far more of a factor in the success of the resort.

tlavin

Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2008, 10:25:32 AM »
High quality golf, lodging and dining that is easily reachable by car from Milwaukee and Chicago.  Sort of an inland, but on the water, midwestern version of Pebble Beach, without the thousands of miles of travel.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2008, 10:40:29 AM »
Kohler was popular and successful before they held the PGA; even before they held the Women's Open.  The Meadows-Valley course is playable and underrated.  My sense is that people go for the overall experience. 

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2008, 10:57:37 AM »
I wonder if Kohler had to do this all over again today if he would still be able to use one architect and be just as successful. IMO, I'm not so sure if he would.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2008, 11:04:38 AM »
One thing that Kohler had going for it is timing didn't it?  Wasn't it up and running before Bandon?  At the time, Pete Dye was much more famous than the Bandon architects.

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2008, 11:21:17 AM »
I live in Illinois and have been to Kohler 4 or 5 times over the past 20 years or so.  I think the resort is successful because....

The courses are fantastic and fun to play.  The River is an unbelievable course, even though Straits gets most of the ink.  Irish and Meadow Valley are underrated and offer a great golfing day.

You get a totally different golfing experience, depending on if you are at Whistling Straits or Blackwolf Run.  I think golfers appreciate variety when spending several days at a resort.

The central location of Kohler makes is accessible for most people in the U.S. as compared to Bandon, which is a long haul to get to, although certainly worth it.

As mentioned earlier, the resort was already popular before the PGA.  The only thing the PGA did for Kohler was allow the resort to raise its prices, which I feel are now too expensive for the average golfer.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2008, 11:25:14 AM »
When Eddie and I started going to play the only course there it was the first year it opened. 1989 (I think). The GCA was a huge draw because the quality of the available golf in Chicago, was to say the least, the least. Yes, we'd play Pine Meadows and Cog Hill frequently, but compared to the River-Valley course, they were woefully inadequate for inspiring accessible golf.

JWinick- When the decision was made to bastardize the original course, I didn't realize how good the original was until I found this forum and learned what made quality gca. Looking back on that original, compared to the current River course, epitomizes the difference between a great golf course and a collection of 18 holes. That's the real only knock on the resort.




"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2008, 11:44:58 AM »
When the decision was made to bastardize the original course, I didn't realize how good the original was until I found this forum and learned what made quality gca. Looking back on that original, compared to the current River course, epitomizes the difference between a great golf course and a collection of 18 holes. That's the real only knock on the resort.


Adam-

The original course can still be played. Maybe 7 years ago I played a tournament up there and they set it up to be played essentially River Course front nine and Meadows back nine (I forgot which hole exactly were the first layout there).



As for the idea of why Kohler is so successful is how diverse it really is. For example, think of all the things there is to do golf withstanding. There is hunting/fishing/outdoors at the river wildlife, a world class spa, and a five star hotel with restaurants...not too bad. The golf courses may not be "pure" golf like bandon...but I doubt anyone on here wouldn't have a fun weekend playing the four courses there.

Hiring Pete Dye at the time the courses were built are obvious, he was essentially THE name GCA at the time. Also to speak of his skill, he may of been the only big name that could of built both a quality parkland course as well as a quality "links" style course.
H.P.S.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 11:47:37 AM »
is it successful?  or is herb kohler so rich it doesn't matter.  just wondering

John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 12:05:00 PM »
Phil,

The only knock on Kohler is that they didn't build one moderately difficult golf course.  With four golf courses, you would think they would build one typical resort course.   It's hard for me to see how a 20-handicap would have a good time there.

I've not been there, but one thing I've noticed about Pete Dye's courses is that generally he makes them enjoyable for everyone, assuming they play from the proper tee.

And I would surmise that, based on what Mr. Kohler charges for his top of the line faucets and sundry bath hardware, he's not too worried about making a profit on golf    ;)

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 12:11:43 PM »
When the decision was made to bastardize the original course, I didn't realize how good the original was until I found this forum and learned what made quality gca. Looking back on that original, compared to the current River course, epitomizes the difference between a great golf course and a collection of 18 holes. That's the real only knock on the resort.


Adam-

The original course can still be played. Maybe 7 years ago I played a tournament up there and they set it up to be played essentially River Course front nine and Meadows back nine (I forgot which hole exactly were the first layout there).





Isn't there one hole that connects the original routing that isn't used anymore?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2008, 12:13:07 PM »
Any time that I have been there the courses have been crowded...so considering the rates I think they are making some money.

You have to make a tee time two months out for a summer WS tee time @ $300+
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2008, 12:16:30 PM »
When the decision was made to bastardize the original course, I didn't realize how good the original was until I found this forum and learned what made quality gca. Looking back on that original, compared to the current River course, epitomizes the difference between a great golf course and a collection of 18 holes. That's the real only knock on the resort.


Adam-

The original course can still be played. Maybe 7 years ago I played a tournament up there and they set it up to be played essentially River Course front nine and Meadows back nine (I forgot which hole exactly were the first layout there).





Isn't there one hole that connects the original routing that isn't used anymore?

I think the holes that aren't played on the back nine on the Meadows are #10 and #18...I think. There is a hole that is still there but not played that connects the River #9 to Meadows #11.
H.P.S.

Andy Ryall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2008, 12:26:11 PM »
Among the high end US resorts, such as Pebble, Bandon, and Sea Island, Kohler at least offers those a reasonably-priced lodging alternative with the Inn at Woodlake.  I think that helps draw golfers looking for a great golf experience without the 5-star hotel, in addition to those who may be looking for a great resort experience.   Just a thought.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2008, 12:28:56 PM »
I'll weigh in with a few thoughts, if only because I've spent a lot of time reading about, and talking with golfers here in Wisconsin about, the Kohler courses.

First of all, I've long believed that the success of Kohler as a golf destination has a clear link to Kohler as a businessman. He's made a fortune out of a pretty mundane thing -- toilets and bathroom/kitchen fixtures. He's not the first person to do so (making money off the mundane), but the Kohler line of products is known in the industry for their high quality, look, and high-brow reputation they bring -- which is something one can say about the Kohler courses, as well. I think Kohler took his model of the business he was familiar with, and applied it to golf -- after all, there are a lot of mundane golf courses.

Certainly he realized the geographic importance of Sheboygan -- maybe not the center of the universe, but an easy drive (Kohler, essentially a company town/bedroom suburb of Sheboygan, is a stone's throw from a major four-lane interstate highway) from Milwaukee, not that far from Chicago, Madison, and the Oshkosh/Appleton/Green Bary corridor, and a pretty easy day trip from the Twin Cities. Heck, it's a lot easier to get to Kohler from Milwaukee or Chicago than to drive from either of those two metro areas to Lawsonia.

I think it's fun to speculate about a Bandon model of different architects for Kohler, but I sense that he and Dye had such a unique relationship that Dye was able to do what I might call "variations on a theme" with the four courses. (The long-rumored story about the Straits is that Kohler and Dye played Ballybunion -- the old course, not the Jones version -- and he told Dye, this is what I want on the shores of Lake Michigan. To Kohler's credit, he invested alot of time playing courses in Scotland and Ireland, sometimes with Dye, before launching his golf courses.) Make no mistake -- Kohler built the Straits with the direct intent of luring the kinds of tournaments it has (PGAs, Ryder Cups, USGA events). He built the River and Meadow Valleys clubs largely because a bunch of guests at the resort (which is a pretty nice place) wanted to golf, and Kohler had nothing to offer them (he even approached a local country club to buy them out, but was turned down.)

And, as others have pointed out, relative to the regional competition, the Kohler courses are pretty strong -- certainly much better than any other publics in Wisconsin at the time they were built (save for Lawsonia), and arguably as good/better than what you'd find in the Chicago or Twin Cities. And Kohler's timing was good -- he opened the four courses over a period of a few years in the late 1980s/early 1990s, which was a pretty healthy time economically.

I do think the economic downturn will hurt business there, but it's hurting all golf courses, and Kohler has the money to ride this out. The Straits is hosting three major, major events in the next decade (two PGAs, a Ryder Cup), and that can't hurt business, either.


Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2008, 12:42:45 PM »
The original Blackwolf Run was #1-4 of the River, then #14-18 of the River, then a hardly-ever-used hole that basically runs from a tee just outside the pro shop door near the cart path that takes you to the #1 tee of the River is (but going 90 degrees to the left) to the 10th green of the Meadow Valley (basically attacking the 10th green of the Meadow Valley course from 90 degrees left), then #11-18 of the Meadow Valley course.

Oh, and personally, I think Kohler is successful because the brats are great and the people are just so damn nice.

For the past several years, the folks at Kohler have "revived" this course for a day or two early in the season -- sometime in early May, if I recall. I used to get notice of it through their email notification.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2008, 01:29:36 PM »
Pat, Sean, Dave has described it well. There is one aspect that can never be returned and that was the original tenth green. It was 34' higher than the current and was as flat as the current is undulating. The flatness was an amazing sight to see, especially if one was serious enough to walk the hole and approach from the front rather than the cart path. It was literally so steep as to be almost vertical, but when your head finally got up to the green level, and saw the flatness, it was stunningly funny.

As for the profitability of the courses, they had the entire nineties to re-coop costs and make a bundle.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2008, 01:42:56 PM »
Where does the Straits Course rank among manufactured designs?  It's over the top (way too many bunkers) but considering it was an abandoned airfield, it's an astonishing place.  Is there any course in the world where the landscape was altered so dramatically?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2008, 01:46:03 PM »
Where does the Straits Course rank among manufactured designs?  It's over the top (way too many bunkers) but considering it was an abandoned airfield, it's an astonishing place.  Is there any course in the world where the landscape was altered so dramatically?

Maybe The Glen Club (also an airfield) and Shadow Creek?
H.P.S.

Anthony Gray

Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2008, 01:47:21 PM »
Where does the Straits Course rank among manufactured designs?  It's over the top (way too many bunkers) but considering it was an abandoned airfield, it's an astonishing place.  Is there any course in the world where the landscape was altered so dramatically?

Maybe The Glen Club (also an airfield) and Shadow Creek?

  Kingsbarns and The Castle


Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2008, 01:52:15 PM »
 Why is Kohler So Successful?

 They got a deal on bathroom fixtures, and they cut out the middleman for all their Milorganite; they get it directly. 

http://www.milorganite.com/about/history.cfm
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

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