Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Phil Benedict on December 16, 2008, 10:10:39 AM
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Tom Doak's OM thread talks about how resorts need to employ multiple architects to maximize their commercial appeal. Yet Kohler has four courses by a single architect, yet appears to do quite well. Is this because of:
1. The quality of the courses
2. The central location
3. Amenities and overall resort quality
4. Crafty marketing including procuring a major
Along with Bandon, Kohler is probably the most successful destination golf resort built in the US in the last 20 years, but it accounts for about 1% of the discussion time on GCA that Bandon gets.
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Phil,
All of the above. Would it be as popular without the press of the PGA Championship?
Anthony
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Phil,
The only knock on Kohler is that they didn't build one moderately difficult golf course. With four golf courses, you would think they would build one typical resort course. It's hard for me to see how a 20-handicap would have a good time there.
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Phil,
All of the above really. Its much easier to get to, it certainly has a good reputation nationally, the resort is very nice, and the courses are excellent. Perhaps they don't compare to Bandon, but I think people who have the funds to go to Kohler can probably afford to go just about anywhere.
I've said this before, but this website's architectural focus by no means encompasses all that is good in the golf design world.
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JW, I've been to Kohler twice with my boss, and he enjoyed both trips (he's a 26 at best). The River Course was too tough for him, but from the correct tees the Straits and Irish Courses were very playable for him and the other high handicappers we were with. . .
I also don't believe that the majority of people who visit Kohler give a rat's ass that the PGA was there. Great accommodations, impeccably maintained courses (sure, we all wish the Straits played f & f, but it's still a lot of fun when the wind's blowing) are far more of a factor in the success of the resort.
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High quality golf, lodging and dining that is easily reachable by car from Milwaukee and Chicago. Sort of an inland, but on the water, midwestern version of Pebble Beach, without the thousands of miles of travel.
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Kohler was popular and successful before they held the PGA; even before they held the Women's Open. The Meadows-Valley course is playable and underrated. My sense is that people go for the overall experience.
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I wonder if Kohler had to do this all over again today if he would still be able to use one architect and be just as successful. IMO, I'm not so sure if he would.
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One thing that Kohler had going for it is timing didn't it? Wasn't it up and running before Bandon? At the time, Pete Dye was much more famous than the Bandon architects.
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I live in Illinois and have been to Kohler 4 or 5 times over the past 20 years or so. I think the resort is successful because....
The courses are fantastic and fun to play. The River is an unbelievable course, even though Straits gets most of the ink. Irish and Meadow Valley are underrated and offer a great golfing day.
You get a totally different golfing experience, depending on if you are at Whistling Straits or Blackwolf Run. I think golfers appreciate variety when spending several days at a resort.
The central location of Kohler makes is accessible for most people in the U.S. as compared to Bandon, which is a long haul to get to, although certainly worth it.
As mentioned earlier, the resort was already popular before the PGA. The only thing the PGA did for Kohler was allow the resort to raise its prices, which I feel are now too expensive for the average golfer.
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When Eddie and I started going to play the only course there it was the first year it opened. 1989 (I think). The GCA was a huge draw because the quality of the available golf in Chicago, was to say the least, the least. Yes, we'd play Pine Meadows and Cog Hill frequently, but compared to the River-Valley course, they were woefully inadequate for inspiring accessible golf.
JWinick- When the decision was made to bastardize the original course, I didn't realize how good the original was until I found this forum and learned what made quality gca. Looking back on that original, compared to the current River course, epitomizes the difference between a great golf course and a collection of 18 holes. That's the real only knock on the resort.
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When the decision was made to bastardize the original course, I didn't realize how good the original was until I found this forum and learned what made quality gca. Looking back on that original, compared to the current River course, epitomizes the difference between a great golf course and a collection of 18 holes. That's the real only knock on the resort.
Adam-
The original course can still be played. Maybe 7 years ago I played a tournament up there and they set it up to be played essentially River Course front nine and Meadows back nine (I forgot which hole exactly were the first layout there).
As for the idea of why Kohler is so successful is how diverse it really is. For example, think of all the things there is to do golf withstanding. There is hunting/fishing/outdoors at the river wildlife, a world class spa, and a five star hotel with restaurants...not too bad. The golf courses may not be "pure" golf like bandon...but I doubt anyone on here wouldn't have a fun weekend playing the four courses there.
Hiring Pete Dye at the time the courses were built are obvious, he was essentially THE name GCA at the time. Also to speak of his skill, he may of been the only big name that could of built both a quality parkland course as well as a quality "links" style course.
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is it successful? or is herb kohler so rich it doesn't matter. just wondering
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Phil,
The only knock on Kohler is that they didn't build one moderately difficult golf course. With four golf courses, you would think they would build one typical resort course. It's hard for me to see how a 20-handicap would have a good time there.
I've not been there, but one thing I've noticed about Pete Dye's courses is that generally he makes them enjoyable for everyone, assuming they play from the proper tee.
And I would surmise that, based on what Mr. Kohler charges for his top of the line faucets and sundry bath hardware, he's not too worried about making a profit on golf ;)
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When the decision was made to bastardize the original course, I didn't realize how good the original was until I found this forum and learned what made quality gca. Looking back on that original, compared to the current River course, epitomizes the difference between a great golf course and a collection of 18 holes. That's the real only knock on the resort.
Adam-
The original course can still be played. Maybe 7 years ago I played a tournament up there and they set it up to be played essentially River Course front nine and Meadows back nine (I forgot which hole exactly were the first layout there).
Isn't there one hole that connects the original routing that isn't used anymore?
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Any time that I have been there the courses have been crowded...so considering the rates I think they are making some money.
You have to make a tee time two months out for a summer WS tee time @ $300+
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When the decision was made to bastardize the original course, I didn't realize how good the original was until I found this forum and learned what made quality gca. Looking back on that original, compared to the current River course, epitomizes the difference between a great golf course and a collection of 18 holes. That's the real only knock on the resort.
Adam-
The original course can still be played. Maybe 7 years ago I played a tournament up there and they set it up to be played essentially River Course front nine and Meadows back nine (I forgot which hole exactly were the first layout there).
Isn't there one hole that connects the original routing that isn't used anymore?
I think the holes that aren't played on the back nine on the Meadows are #10 and #18...I think. There is a hole that is still there but not played that connects the River #9 to Meadows #11.
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Among the high end US resorts, such as Pebble, Bandon, and Sea Island, Kohler at least offers those a reasonably-priced lodging alternative with the Inn at Woodlake. I think that helps draw golfers looking for a great golf experience without the 5-star hotel, in addition to those who may be looking for a great resort experience. Just a thought.
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I'll weigh in with a few thoughts, if only because I've spent a lot of time reading about, and talking with golfers here in Wisconsin about, the Kohler courses.
First of all, I've long believed that the success of Kohler as a golf destination has a clear link to Kohler as a businessman. He's made a fortune out of a pretty mundane thing -- toilets and bathroom/kitchen fixtures. He's not the first person to do so (making money off the mundane), but the Kohler line of products is known in the industry for their high quality, look, and high-brow reputation they bring -- which is something one can say about the Kohler courses, as well. I think Kohler took his model of the business he was familiar with, and applied it to golf -- after all, there are a lot of mundane golf courses.
Certainly he realized the geographic importance of Sheboygan -- maybe not the center of the universe, but an easy drive (Kohler, essentially a company town/bedroom suburb of Sheboygan, is a stone's throw from a major four-lane interstate highway) from Milwaukee, not that far from Chicago, Madison, and the Oshkosh/Appleton/Green Bary corridor, and a pretty easy day trip from the Twin Cities. Heck, it's a lot easier to get to Kohler from Milwaukee or Chicago than to drive from either of those two metro areas to Lawsonia.
I think it's fun to speculate about a Bandon model of different architects for Kohler, but I sense that he and Dye had such a unique relationship that Dye was able to do what I might call "variations on a theme" with the four courses. (The long-rumored story about the Straits is that Kohler and Dye played Ballybunion -- the old course, not the Jones version -- and he told Dye, this is what I want on the shores of Lake Michigan. To Kohler's credit, he invested alot of time playing courses in Scotland and Ireland, sometimes with Dye, before launching his golf courses.) Make no mistake -- Kohler built the Straits with the direct intent of luring the kinds of tournaments it has (PGAs, Ryder Cups, USGA events). He built the River and Meadow Valleys clubs largely because a bunch of guests at the resort (which is a pretty nice place) wanted to golf, and Kohler had nothing to offer them (he even approached a local country club to buy them out, but was turned down.)
And, as others have pointed out, relative to the regional competition, the Kohler courses are pretty strong -- certainly much better than any other publics in Wisconsin at the time they were built (save for Lawsonia), and arguably as good/better than what you'd find in the Chicago or Twin Cities. And Kohler's timing was good -- he opened the four courses over a period of a few years in the late 1980s/early 1990s, which was a pretty healthy time economically.
I do think the economic downturn will hurt business there, but it's hurting all golf courses, and Kohler has the money to ride this out. The Straits is hosting three major, major events in the next decade (two PGAs, a Ryder Cup), and that can't hurt business, either.
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The original Blackwolf Run was #1-4 of the River, then #14-18 of the River, then a hardly-ever-used hole that basically runs from a tee just outside the pro shop door near the cart path that takes you to the #1 tee of the River is (but going 90 degrees to the left) to the 10th green of the Meadow Valley (basically attacking the 10th green of the Meadow Valley course from 90 degrees left), then #11-18 of the Meadow Valley course.
Oh, and personally, I think Kohler is successful because the brats are great and the people are just so damn nice.
For the past several years, the folks at Kohler have "revived" this course for a day or two early in the season -- sometime in early May, if I recall. I used to get notice of it through their email notification.
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Pat, Sean, Dave has described it well. There is one aspect that can never be returned and that was the original tenth green. It was 34' higher than the current and was as flat as the current is undulating. The flatness was an amazing sight to see, especially if one was serious enough to walk the hole and approach from the front rather than the cart path. It was literally so steep as to be almost vertical, but when your head finally got up to the green level, and saw the flatness, it was stunningly funny.
As for the profitability of the courses, they had the entire nineties to re-coop costs and make a bundle.
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Where does the Straits Course rank among manufactured designs? It's over the top (way too many bunkers) but considering it was an abandoned airfield, it's an astonishing place. Is there any course in the world where the landscape was altered so dramatically?
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Where does the Straits Course rank among manufactured designs? It's over the top (way too many bunkers) but considering it was an abandoned airfield, it's an astonishing place. Is there any course in the world where the landscape was altered so dramatically?
Maybe The Glen Club (also an airfield) and Shadow Creek?
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Where does the Straits Course rank among manufactured designs? It's over the top (way too many bunkers) but considering it was an abandoned airfield, it's an astonishing place. Is there any course in the world where the landscape was altered so dramatically?
Maybe The Glen Club (also an airfield) and Shadow Creek?
Kingsbarns and The Castle
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Why is Kohler So Successful?
They got a deal on bathroom fixtures, and they cut out the middleman for all their Milorganite; they get it directly.
http://www.milorganite.com/about/history.cfm
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Any time that I have been there the courses have been crowded...so considering the rates I think they are making some money.
You have to make a tee time two months out for a summer WS tee time @ $300+
Pat, I will be interested to see if the long advance bookings are seen this summer given the economic climate. There will be a lot less business golf being played there as expense accounts are tightened. Time will tell. Jack
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When Eddie and I started going to play the only course there it was the first year it opened. 1989 (I think). The GCA was a huge draw because the quality of the available golf in Chicago, was to say the least, the least. Yes, we'd play Pine Meadows and Cog Hill frequently, but compared to the River-Valley course, they were woefully inadequate for inspiring accessible golf.
JWinick- When the decision was made to bastardize the original course, I didn't realize how good the original was until I found this forum and learned what made quality gca. Looking back on that original, compared to the current River course, epitomizes the difference between a great golf course and a collection of 18 holes. That's the real only knock on the resort.
Greetings Adam,
Hope things are good. I got to admit I do not understand your affection for the original Kohler 18 given what I know about your general outlook on GCA. 1,2, and 4 are quite artificial holes with big artificial mounding. Same goes for 14 and 15. Meanwhile, 5-13 seem to fit well with the property without as much of that stuff, though the walk to 5 is bad. Same artificiality exists on 11, 12 and 13 of the Meadow/Valley (and maybe 15 too), though the rest of the Meadow that was part of the original course is inspiring. Except for the two long walks, I don't see how adding 5-13 of the River course detracted from the experience. In fact, these holes eliminate some of the "resort" feeling I get from the course.
Best,
Jeff
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I used to go out to the construction site of the original course, when I was first getting interested in GCA. At that time era the only other significant course being built around here was University Ridge and a rather contrived place called Fox Hills National. Following those construction sites periodically sure didn't give me any special insight other than how complicated construction sites were on the mega costly side of the equation, and the scope of what drainage really was about in high end GCA. Those projects gave me no insight into minimalism and the art of clever and conservative GCA.
None of the folks above have mentioned the impact of having the Women's US Open at BWR composite course at the very same month Kohler opened and debutted to the world, Whistling Straits. I was lucky enough to get to play in the first organized event (a Merrill Lynch golf tournament) the 2-3 weeks before the Women's open. There were several key golf dignitaries there being introduced to the course, and there is where I met Pete and Alice Dye on the 17th hole for an animated Pete discussion of how he built it and round of pics. The thing about that time was the marketting effort that was widespread and full court pressed at that time. Press releases of the enormous scope of the WS project were everywhere, and clever quotes by Kohler like: "I gave Pete Dye and unlimitted budget - and he exceeded it" were all well placed hype for the marketting of something very lavish and special for this area. Then the week of the US Women's, a very special outting was organized to put WS on the highest awareness when they had George HB Bush and many dignataries play a 30K a foursome event to raise $$$ for the fledgling first tee program. So the reason for Kohler's success has alot to do with marketting.
Then, I'll say this... I'd love to see a real accounting for where the unlimitted funds for building the WS course came from, at the bottom line. The land was filled with many various mini toxic waste designated clean-up sites as identified by the Bush era EPA. As I understand it, there were significant funds available to clean up those multi-mini polluted sights created by practice dive bombing and the chemicals associated therein the ordinance, as it was used to train WWII navy pilots (maybe even Bush). I don't think it hurt that fellows like Kohler with there enormous fortunes have the social and maybe political connections to out market an out capitalize (maybe even without using too much of their own money as opposed to federal funds) to take on mega projects like WS, BWR and such.
But, no one can deny the absolute passion and vigor in which Herb Kohler pursues golf. I heard a story of how fanatical he is in a crony game they supposedly call the "bounce game" where they go at the spur of the moment on their jets to far off places when the weather conditions may be at what most would consider the worst, to play the brutal conditions of golf course and nature against man... All while carrying something like a 16 handicap. You can't say the man don't love golf.
And, he didn't use Dye (but Liddy- a Dye associate) to do the Duke's course while following something of his original hotel resort then golf course developement model, after buying TOC hotel. I don't care for much of the Kohler family history and management philosophy backround, being a labor man, but one can't deny Kohler is a real sharp and enterprising cookie who knows how to market and connect to get his visions accomplished.
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Dick:
Yes, the Kohler golf folks have been very good on the marketing end of things -- anyone who can demand top-shelf prices for plumbing knows how to market!
I don't recall, having like you followed the projects pretty closely, whether the Straits property in particular received any clean-up money from the state or feds (it was an old military site). Wisconsin has a pretty good "brownfield" program aimed at providing clean-up dollars as sort of seed money for local development projects, but I don't recall Kohler tapping that. I do know there was a bit of a tiff between Kohler and the DNR (environmental oversight agency, for all non-Cheeseheads, or "Da.. near Russia" for those who don't like their take on things) about some wetlands that Kohler/Dye wanted to convert into one of the par 3s hugging the shoreline. And, of course, there were a few rumblings that your good friend former Gov. Tommy Thompson leaned on the DNR to approve the wetlands "switch" (this was the era of Bush I's push for "no net loss" of wetlands), and even more rumblings after one of the state papers dug up some campaigns contributions from Kohler (and maybe some other company officials) to Thompson (no matter that the Kohlers have been donating to Republicans since the days of fire being invented...).
In the end -- and this is GCA-related! -- the wetlands "switch" was what led to the development of the somewhat notorius par 5 5th hole at the Straits, now holding a prominent spot on the "out of place" thread elsewhere on the board. Dye himself has said the 5th is the reason why he and Kohler were able to build the course -- the wetlands area surrounding that hole was developed as part of the switch that resulted from the coastal wetlands being lost to a par 3.
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Jeff,
I got to admit I do not understand your affection for the original Kohler 18 given what I know about your general outlook on GCA. 1,2, and 4 are quite artificial holes with big artificial mounding. Same goes for 14 and 15. Meanwhile, 5-13 seem to fit well with the property without as much of that stuff, though the walk to 5 is bad. Same artificiality exists on 11, 12 and 13 of the Meadow/Valley (and maybe 15 too), though the rest of the Meadow that was part of the original course is inspiring. Except for the two long walks, I don't see how adding 5-13 of the River course detracted from the experience. In fact, these holes eliminate some of the "resort" feeling I get from the course.
I can understand your confusion. It's weird, but Pete seems to get a pass on the artificial stuff. Maybe because he does other things so well? I don't know. I'm not articulate enough to accurately describe my sentiments in words. It's likely all personal, since most of my comments and opinions are from memory. Back when I played there I knew bubkus about GCA, or, even gave it a fleeting thought other than who designed the courses I was playing.
For me, the journey of the original 18 holes was chocked full of variety and dichotomy between the natural and the artificial. From the first hole, with the natural river on the left and the fake mounding on the right, Pete set the tone. The current 14 and 15 are great examples of the dichotomy and I would argue 15 (Sand Pit) appeared as though it could've been natural. But there was just something special to that ebb and flow of the original 18. Maybe it was the natural v. artificial sequencing or juxtapositions that made the journey so special? The original 13th (Chimney)and 14th (Natures course) also follow that same artificial v. natural sequence. While I too enjoy many of the new holes on the River course (5-13), upon reflection, the 18 hole course just does not stand up to the original, as a golf course. As a compilation of 18 holes, it may be superior under a hole by hole analysis. But here in lies the difference, albeit a fine one between what I sense when I'm out there, and how many evaluate courses. Call me full of shit (not you Jeff) but that's how I see the importance of the routing and how that makes one feel when playing a very good course. Natures Course from reverse
(http://www.destinationkohler.com/MungoBlobs/430/770/bwr_mv_hole14_prev.jpg)
Couldn't slight the next one...Mercy
(http://www.destinationkohler.com/MungoBlobs/972/426/ws_bd_mv_hole15_01_sm.jpg)
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I was around Blackwolf Run just a little bit when it was built. At that time, Mr. Kohler knew virtually nothing about golf or golf architecture; he interviewed a couple of architects, liked Pete's hands-on approach, and made his choice.
The first course was successful, and Herb just liked Pete, and the place got a lot of ink, so he kept going back to Pete. He did not listen to the usual conventional wisdom of golf marketing guys because he just avoids all of those guys entirely.
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I might be wrong, but isn't Paiute also all Pete Dye?
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There used to be a great package rate over Memorial Day where you basically got your room and replays for free if you paid for one round a day. By playing the replays on the River and Straits, you could get 5 or 6 rounds in over the long weekend without actually destroying your wallet (of course this was before the $350 greens fees they're now charging). I'm hopeful that the economy might cause this type of special to reappear. Kohler's a fun place to spend three days doing nothing but playing golf -- and it doesn't take nine hours to get there!
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I might be wrong, but isn't Paiute also all Pete Dye?
Yes--like Kohler and Casa de Campo, Paiute is all Pete.
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I haven't played everything in Kohler, but there is one reason for it's success that hasn't been mentioned previously: There are things for a non-playing spouse to do.
This topic has come up on here before. I have a non-golfing significant other and it would be much easier to sell the idea of going to a really nice resort where she can have a decent time while I play golf and a day or two in Chicago a lot easier than I could sell, 'Let's go to this awesome golf mecca called Bandon Dunes, but you might get bored.'
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is it successful? or is herb kohler so rich it doesn't matter. just wondering
I thought this was a good question - is it successful as a 4 course property?
Is the hotel so profitable it doesn't matter?
He did not listen to the usual conventional wisdom of golf marketing guys because he just avoids all of those guys entirely.
Who are these golf marketing guys?
They seem to get around a lot...
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I too like Mike N. thought that whether this place makes money or not was a good question. I suspect we have only speculation. But please understand with land costs and high end maintenance, those rooms better be full regularly for this place to cash flow.
One thing in their favor. I suspect by closing in the winter, it helps. Love those courses that fill up in the summer and then button up tight in the winter. Seaonal employees, the best.
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The first course was successful enough to build the second, the second to build the third and so on. That's all we can know given the lack of public information.
It has the aura of a successful place (hosting majors, generally favorable publicity), but then again so did Bernie Madoff.
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Because he is a good businessman! Very few golf properties are successful that are not treated for what they really are, which is a business. As this economy unfolds, we will soon find out which ones have been run well and which ones have not. And unfortunately the outcome for many will not just depend on whether they have the best golf course or the best architect!
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I suspect that they've done very well. How else do you explain being able to charge $340 a round for the Straits course? They also have a semi-private membership that has 300+ members from what I recall and has raised its initiation from $65k to $125k.
The greens fees have gone up exponentially each year, probably because they've been full up every year with their existing rates...why not charge more? The other courses, especially MV and Irish have a little more availability and do offer 2-for-1 deals every now and then. I don't recall ever seeing similar deals on the Straits.
I'm interested in seeing if their rates change in 2009 under this miserable economy, particularly because my wife and I are planning on spending our 10-year anniv there.
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I'd ask all you folks that have played any or all of the Kohler courses, once, twice, multiple times... did you always pay right out of your pocket, no perks, no tax write-offs, just your own ping? If not your $$$, who paid your freight?
I'll admit, once a perk - twice my pocket book, ond once I actually don't remember the exact arrangement if got a reduced having been with a rater.
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Any time that I have been there the courses have been crowded...so considering the rates I think they are making some money.
You have to make a tee time two months out for a summer WS tee time @ $300+
Pat, I will be interested to see if the long advance bookings are seen this summer given the economic climate. There will be a lot less business golf being played there as expense accounts are tightened. Time will tell. Jack
Jack-
Well I will be there for a week this October...for my honeymoon. So they have my business!
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Dick, I always paid. But considering most of my visit were before 1993, except for the one year I met you and was back home for my Birthday.
I seem to recall playing on average $70 a round. I think that was $100 green fee and a $40 replay in 91'-92'. Eddie and I made several day trips from Chicago, justifying the 2 1/2 hr drive as well worth the effort.
I do remember the first year or two, they offered a 10 play pass for a considerable discount.
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Pat, Congrats on the big day! Whatever the cost ,view it as a downpayment for a lifetime of happiness! I proposed to my wife at Pebble and honeymooned in Scotland /Ireland - 10 rds in 14 days! Celebrated our 10th last May in Carmel and managed to squeeze in some golf with some GCA lads in the area. You only go around once so do it right! Jack
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There is no one I envy more than Jack. Jack disproves the theory that a married men in America has less freedom than a single man in Communist China.
Pat, Congrats on the big day! Whatever the cost ,view it as a downpayment for a lifetime of happiness! I proposed to my wife at Pebble and honeymooned in Scotland /Ireland - 10 rds in 14 days! Celebrated our 10th last May in Carmel and managed to squeeze in some golf with some GCA lads in the area. You only go around once so do it right! Jack
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Jon, As you have no doubt heard me say many a time-the most important decision you make in life is the partner you chose! You work hard ,you play hard! One most always strive to play as many great courses as quickly as you can-old age is not the time to start tackling the top 100! ;)
Jack
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Shivas,
Nice.
Where did you get 35,000 x 4?
That is the number that we're asking about.
Cheers
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Just a guess, but Kohler is so successful for the same reason that Bandon is, i.e. because both Mr. Kohler and Mr. Keiser are sane human beings, i.e. they're the sensible type of businessmen who don't let their fortunes go to their heads and get them thinking they can do no wrong. It just doesn't feel that there was much 'vanity' in either of these vanity projects..and this sanity trickles down into all aspects of the operations.
Peter
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To expand on Jeff Shelman's previous point--while Bandon caters to purists--who must walk, and have few options other than golf and more golf, the Kohler clientele is culled from a much wider swath of vacationers--walk or ride, eat pub food, or--5-star dining, and--have access to a state-of-the-art spa (with Kohler fixtures, of course!) tour the Kohler factory, but Kohler fixtures and faucets in their on-site store, with an additional wide range of shopping options, numerous other recreational amenities, and lastly, the imprimatur of being the Midwest's only 5--Diamond Resort--a real seal of approval for the cognoscenti, I would imagine.
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It just doesn't feel that there was much 'vanity' in either of these vanity projects..
Peter
Peter:
My hat from the '04 PGA held at WStraits has a funny face on it that bears a remarkable resemblence to Mr. Kohler...
Kohler has a lot of ego invested in his golf projects. Not that there's anything wrong with that! He's well-known for throwing his weight around with PGA and USGA officials to lure tourneys to the courses. But the Kohler courses succeed, I think, largely because Kohler was a very smart businessman long before he got into high-end golf courses.
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I go on an annual golf trip with 20 guys, and we're MUCH more likely to go to Kohler than Bandon because it's way easier to get to, because some of the guys prefer to ride, and because it seems like there's more to do at night (I haven't been to Kohler, but that's the sense I have). So even if the golf might not be as good, it has all those other things going for it.
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[quote
I really don't care what the maintenance costs are with that kind of top line. Hell, the profit from beer sales pay for those...don't forget -- it's Wisconsin.
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I usually reframe from commenting on anything Kohler, being that I have worked for them for the past thirteen years. But I just wanted to thank Shivas for the what possibly could be a compliment and to point out that you pay more for water.
Mr. Kohler and the family know how to plan, build and market a product. Think of the village itself, most guests do not concern themselves with the fact that there is a Foundry across the road from the resort. Thanks in part to the Landscaping, layout and foresight which can be traced back to Olmstead, they see a unique and quaint village. They may stroll into the Design center and see some of the other products offered by Kohler or venture to Woodlake and find more offerings, the latest is our line of fine chocolates.
Mr. Kohler was thinking of a walking course when walking wasn't popular, he restored a factory housing facility to a five diamond resort, he has created a brand associated with fine living. In short the guy has the vision and determination to fully pursue any endeavor to a standard that meets his expectations. When it's done, it will operate like any other bussiness and meet the same ideals.
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On each of my 8 trips to Kohler it's been on my dime (tho three were in October when rates had fallen somewhat).
And Mr. Shackelford, the hotel is not closed during the winter so they do need year-round employees. . .
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These responses seem to suggest that the fact that only one architect is represented at Kohler is basically a neutral factor which is overwhelmed by everything else the resort has in its favor (if anybody cares about the absence of architectural diversity).
Bandon is probably a different situation since it is such a remote location and started with a low-profile architect.
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whats amazing is that Mr. Kohler converted the American Club to a hotel BEFORE any golf courses were built there....why he figured people would want to come to Kohler for a vacation at that time puzzles me, but they did, surpassing their inital occupancy estimates...THEN he built the first golf course, then more, then the spa much later on
a fine line between a genius and madness i think! ;)
reminds me of Mr. Keisers decision to use a then little if at all known architect to build his first golf course...logic tells me that I would have picked a more known name to build my FIRST course - i'm not saying it had to be a Nicklaus or a Fazio...but Tom Doak for example was certainly more known than DMK at the time....
but Mike certainly made the right call didn't he!
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whats amazing is that Mr. Kohler converted the American Club to a hotel BEFORE any golf courses were built there....why he figured people would want to come to Kohler for a vacation at that time puzzles me, but they did, surpassing their inital occupancy estimates...THEN he built the first golf course, then more, then the spa much later on
My father started going up there specifically for the hunting/fishing in the 1980's way before the course opened up. I think a lot of their early business came from Chicago folks driving up for a quick weekend.
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I might well be mistaken, but I seem to remember that the early days of the American Club were some sort of a competition with John Johanesses operation at Sentry World and Insurance, where Johanness had a world class restaurant with world famous chef. Wasn't there a bit of a freindly rivalry between Kohler and Johanness that was more focused on the gastronomical side of the equation, and didn't Kohler sort of raid Sentry of that famous chef to oversee the American Club? Sentry got golf with RTJjr, then Kohler brought it on, maybe in something of a rivalry. It was a while ago, and I may have that totally discombobulated... ::)
BTW, Johanness was an amazing gentleman himself, being totally dyslexic and going to law school and doing extremely well with the reading because his friend that was the bartender at the old Park Hotel would read the cases to him. Or is that another urban legend? ::)
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What is everyone's favorite course in Kohler and why?
Is the easy answer the Straights course? Is the hard answer the Meadows course?
I have always said that perhaps the best nine in Kohler is the back nine on the Meadows from #11 on.
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Pat, while I'd say overall that it is more of an overall experience plus interesting design at WS, I can definitely see your liking for last 8 at Meadows. I think Adam might be in accord as well.
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Well, this is probably unconventional, but a very good friend of mine (single-digit handicap) who has played all of the courses raves about the Irish Course. Likes it better than the Straits, and argues it in some ways is more difficult.
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Phil-
I would agree that the Irish is more difficult...by about 3 shots from the tips. While I don't think its a bad course, the experience of WS (playing along Lake Michigan may not sound cool to someone used to an Ocean, but for a kid from Chicago that is pretty neat) makes it one of a kind.
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Pat,
My favorite course at Kohler is the River. I'd say the nine hole stretch from #5 through #13 is one of my favorite nine hole stretches anywhere. That section of the property there through the trees and with the river coming into play on a lot of the holes make it seem really natural. However, I think the trees on #13 have gotten a bit much where the hole is not as playable as it used to be.
All of the four par 5's on River are great, and I feel there are a lot of good risk / reward holes throughout the course. Hole 11 is a really, really tough par 5 that requires 3 well placed shots to have a chance to score. The course builds to a great finish with the last three holes being classic Dye holes in my opinion.
I also think the greens on the River are really subtle, seems like every four to five footer has something going on with it.
That said, I really like the back nine on Meadows. I've never played the original 18 at the resort but if I did I feel like I would be missing out on something not getting to play holes 5 - 13 on River. That was a disappointment for me when they played the women's US Open there since they played the original 18. I would guess, though, that there's not enough space on the 5-13 River stretch to accommodate galleries, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Phil-
I would agree that the Irish is more difficult...by about 3 shots from the tips. While I don't think its a bad course, the experience of WS (playing along Lake Michigan may not sound cool to someone used to an Ocean, but for a kid from Chicago that is pretty neat) makes it one of a kind.
Pat:
Ironically, my friend grew up in Coos Bay, Oregon, just a stone's throw from Bandon -- pre-"Bandon," however. I don't think he's played the Bandon courses.
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Phil, shocking that he feels that way if he had access to Sand Pines! ::) ;)