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Joe Bausch

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January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« on: December 19, 2007, 11:56:07 AM »
Here is the drawing published in the Philadelphia Inquirer for Pine Valley from 1914:

Headline: Pine Valley Course Designed for All the Year 'Round Playing and Calling for "Thinking Golf" by Players; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 01-04-1914; Volume: 170; Issue: 4; Page: 11; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania




@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Paul_Turner

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2007, 12:01:07 PM »
Good find Joe!  That's a copy of Colt's plan.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

ChrisHervochon

Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2007, 12:48:00 PM »
Quite interesting!  It seems to be devoid of a few features though, such as the lake in front of 14/15.  Also, where's the dogleg on the 12th, and Hell's Half Acre?  Did Crump and the architects change the routing/layout THAT much after Colt laid out the original plan? ???

Paul_Turner

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2007, 12:54:17 PM »
Chris

Yes you can pretty much work out the changes;  HAH, 12, 13 and 14 etc  lots of info in the GCA discussion group archives about these.

Looks like the word "Swamp" is written between 15 and 16.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 12:58:23 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Paul_Turner

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2007, 01:10:50 PM »
Joe

Is there any text to go with the plan?  If there is, it would be super if you could post that too.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Joe Bausch

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2007, 01:23:27 PM »
Joe

Is there any text to go with the plan?  If there is, it would be super if you could post that too.

There is Paul.  I'll post it in pieces coming up soon.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2007, 01:25:53 PM »
Here is part 1 of the text.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2007, 01:28:52 PM »
Part 2:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2007, 01:31:28 PM »
part 3:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2007, 01:33:57 PM »
last part of the text:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2007, 01:42:45 PM »
The Philly Inky ran a column during this era called "Club and Clubmen".  The reference for this next part is as follows:

Headline: Clubs and Clubmen; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 01-11-1914; Volume: 170; Issue: 11; Page: 5; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Paul_Turner

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2007, 01:43:30 PM »
Thanks Joe.  That was the article that led some to believe that Colt's only contribution was the change to the 5th (8 iron par3 changed to a driver par 3 is "minor"?).  I guess the author wasn't aware that the plan he included in the article was drawn by Colt.

Interesting that he writes about a huge view from the 6th ridge.

The yardage to the 14th hole doesn't fit??
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 02:05:54 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mike_Cirba

Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2007, 01:51:09 PM »
Joe,

This is awesome.   I've been a bit predisposed with a family medical issue, but you're uncovering some tremendous stuff!


Mike_Cirba

Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2007, 01:52:22 PM »
It's also interesting in a later article that Joe Bunker (Tilly) mentions that Macdonald believed Pine Valley is the best course in the country.   Quite a testament from the man who built NGLA!

Joe Bausch

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2007, 02:01:34 PM »
Joe,

This is awesome.   I've been a bit predisposed with a family medical issue, but you're uncovering some tremendous stuff!


I'm confident there could be more to be dug up.  Stay tuned.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jay Flemma

Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2007, 03:07:38 PM »
Joe, that's great detective work.  I know I saw a good drawing in a book called Great Golf Courses of America.  They had great drawings of many courses actually, Augusta, Shinny, Southern Hills, Sawgrass...

...in a funny bit of poor editing, they had Ventana Canyon in there...they analyzed the mountain course, but they put in the drawing of the canyon course.  Has anybody else got this book?  Its by John Gordon with photos by Mike French.

wsmorrison

Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2007, 03:21:00 PM »
Paul,

That is certainly in the style of and very similar to the Colt drawing we obtained on eBay, but it is not exactly the same as the one we purchased on eBay on behalf of the club.  There are several notable differences.  The greens in the Colt drawing we obtained are not in Roman numerals.  The twelfth green is properly numbered unlike our drawing which mistakenly had two 13th greens.  A number of holes are drawn differently, especially in detail.  The seventh on the drawing Joe posted shows a dogleg left where as the Colt drawing (labeled as such) we found is straight away.  The 13th hole is significantly longer in the drawing Joe posted and there's a number of bunker differences.  

Jerry Kluger

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2007, 04:01:26 PM »
Very interesting statement that "experience----will dictate the permanent location of the bunkers."  

Does any gca design a course today with the idea that they will move bunkers depending upon how the hole is playing - my thought is that today's bunkers involve much more work, including drainage, to construct and it isn't something which is easily or inexpensively done.

Paul_Turner

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2007, 04:10:34 PM »
Wayne

It's like the original one hanging up in the clubhouse; the one with blue/red lines, which does have roman numerals and the 7th turning left.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 04:11:57 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

wsmorrison

Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2007, 04:29:17 PM »
Yes, of course it is like that one.  Sorry about that.  It does however differ from the eBay map in a number of ways.  Where would you say the eBay map is in the time line of the development of the course compared to the one hanging in the clubhouse and the one posted in the Philadelphia Inquirer?

TEPaul

Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2007, 01:20:28 PM »
Joe, Paul and Wayne:

That article and particularly the drawing of the course in the article is most interesting and should probably take some additional thought in a number of areas as to what it means about the design and construction of the golf course and the progression of both from 1913 until Crump died in Jan. 1918..

First of all, I doubt that drawing in the article is by Colt. At the very most I think all it could be is someone’s copy of the Colt whole course drawing that we bought off of eBay.

Until that Colt whole course drawing turned up on eBay it seems pretty certain that no one knew for years that Colt actually did a whole course drawing for Pine Valley. John Arthur Brown never mentioned it when he wrote Pine Valley’s first history book. Warner Shelley never mentioned it when he wrote Pine Valley’s second history book and Jim Finegan never mentioned it when he recently wrote the third and last Pine Valley history book. When I started researching the creation of the course all the club thought Colt did for the design and left behind was that hole by hole booklet that has always been in the possession of the club.

Then that Colt whole course drawing turned up on eBay after all those decades and it certainly is pretty close to the hole-by-hole drawings in the Colt booklet.

So where the hell was that Colt whole course drawing all these years that we bought off of eBay? That’s a good question and I suspect at some point during the construction of the course it was just taken off-site by someone and it never returned. Wherever that Colt whole course drawing we bought ended up all these years I suspect it was somewhere around Clementon probably stuck in a closet or attic for the last 90 years or so until someone finally discovered it relatively recently and took it to a local flea market and sold it for $56 to a bartender from Clementon who put it on eBay and frankly made a ton of money on it!  ;)

We bought that Colt whole course map off of eBay from that Clementon bartender.

But I’m pretty sure Colt’s whole course map we bought was probably used on-site to some extent for the simple reason it does have those typical “fold lines” on it which means it was in and out of someone’s pocket a lot on-site. The “blue/red” line topo map that’s hung in the clubhouse all those years has the same fold-lines on it as does Crump’s original stick routing topo map that probably preceded Colt’s first and apparently only visit in May/June 1913.

I do know the “blue/red” line topo map that hangs in the clubhouse was used on-site for years by Crump et al for the simple reason that it has numerous iterations and alterations of holes that occurred throughout those years. In this vein, Tillinghast’s constant writing about Pine Valley and how things were progressing and changing on various holes over the years is of tremendous help that way in the creation of a virtual timeline that explains those alterations on that “blue/red” line topo.

And so are the so-called "Remembrances" of Crump's two best Pine Valley friends, Carr and Smith, who chronicled either contemporaneously and/or just after Crump died the things he was doing and thinking and the things he planned on doing (had he lived).

But consider this for a minute because it could be one of the finest examples to date of what I call “looking through the prism backwards”. By that I mean we today must always keep in mind the things that we know and think that those men back then could not have known for the simple reason a number of things and a number of factors came after them that they couldn’t have known about.

And one of those things just could be certain forms of technology that did not yet exist such as how could one get Colt’s whole course drawing into a newspaper article in 1914? One couldn’t copy it and reduce it in size because those kinds of inventions wouldn’t come for maybe another forty years.

And if that’s all true to say which it seems to me it is, then how did that drawing above get into that Inquirer article and who did it? I doubt Colt did it because at that point he was back in England and I doubt they got him to do another drawing just for the Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper.  ;)

Maybe someone at Pine Valley or some artist for the paper did a copy of Colt’s whole course drawing just for that newspaper article and that would explain why that drawing has a number of differences from Colt’s whole course drawing that we bought on eBay.

In the next post I’ll go over what those differences are between Colt's whole course drawing that we bought and that newspaper drawing above and what those differences probably mean about the design and construction of the golf course at that point and who was doing it and who was changing things and why and how.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 01:31:43 PM by TEPaul »

Paul_Turner

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2007, 01:43:00 PM »
Tom

Colt did come back to America in 1914,  but I'm not sure of the exact date that he arrived.

How do these yardages match up with the Carr report?  I haven't got that to hand.   I think it implied only 3 par 3s;  simlar to the article above.  

On the plan above, the 14th at 390 yards seems too long for any of the iterations we have seen (including the cape hole).

It's interesting to that the above plan has roman numerals like the original blue/red one,  whereas the ebay one has regular numbers.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 01:44:13 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Joe Bausch

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2007, 02:27:58 PM »
Here is another interesting passage concerning PV and Colt, etc.  I hope I'm not posting things that have already been covered through the years here!

Citation:

Headline: It Happened in Golfland; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 02-15-1914; Volume: 170; Issue: 46; Page: 11; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

The author is Verdant Greene.  Here is the first part of that article:




@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2007, 02:42:08 PM »
"How do these yardages match up with the Carr report?  I haven't got that to hand.  I think it implied only 3 par 3s;  simlar to the article above."

Paul:

That's a very good question and I assume by the Carr report you mean the article by Carr written about the course and Colt in 1914.

In my opinion, and I've felt this for years, that perhaps the most important thing of all that Crump got from Colt during his visit was that type of basic course "balance" and "variety" in something of a shot-testing vein on particular parts of the course and on particular holes. If one thinks about it that is not an easy thing to layout so specifically on a complex piece of property when both a routing as well as a routings particular individual hole designs is not completely settled on first.

But what I'm saying (above) and will go into in detail later is how some of the actual holes were being changed in various ways such as length that were actually reflected in that newpaper drawing along the stick line in yardage numbers that did not match the actual hole drawing by Colt that was apparently copied by the newspaper.  

Good examples were #13 that said 420 along the stick line but the hole was still Colt's 300 yard 13th as a drawing and the 14th which was still a par 3 in the drawing but said 390 yards along the stickline. #7 says 550 along the stick-line but on the drawing it's not much more than about 450 because the spot the green is drawn at is over 100 yards from where the green was built (which Crump's red lines show) and #15 says 520 and it doesn't measure more than the high 400s on the drawing because the tee is basically on the fairway side of what was to be the lake.

The newspaper drawing also cuts a lot of the club's property off behind the 13th hole which is pretty misleading too.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 02:49:04 PM by TEPaul »

Paul_Turner

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Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2007, 02:48:48 PM »
Tom

What yardage does Colt give for 7 and 15 in his booklet?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

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