[Ted Kramer]

The following quote was used in a thread on BSG.

"Great strategic holes primarily challenge thought. Knowledge of what to do is not immediate. It must be sought. The line of skill is not obvious but is concealed in the line of thought. This first has to be determined, and thought is fallible. Sight is rarely so. On a penal course we see what to avoid. A good shot is the mere evasion of evil. But on a strategic course we must study what to conquer. There are indeed optional safe routes that may be taken. In most cases the ball may be kicked to the hole without encountering a hazard. But the shot must weather hell." -- Max Behr

I have a question with regards to Mr. Behr's quote.
With regards to "optional safe routes that may be taken" on a strategic course . . .

How can the ball, "be kicked to the hole without encountering a hazard." but also be forced to  "weather hell".

I am at a loss.

-Ted

[ForkaB]

Try it in French, Ted.  That always works for me with Maxie.

Grande pensée stratégique de défi de trous principalement. La connaissance de ce qu'à faire n'est pas immédiate. Elle doit être cherchée. La ligne de la compétence n'est pas évidente mais est cachée dans la ligne de la pensée. Ce premier doit être déterminé, et la pensée est faillible. La vue est rarement ainsi. Sur un cours pénal nous voyons quoi éviter. Un bon projectile est la seule évasion du mal. Mais sur un cours stratégique nous devons étudier quoi conquérir. Il y a en effet des itinéraires sûrs facultatifs qui peuvent être pris. Dans la plupart des cas la boule peut être donnée un coup de pied au trou sans rencontrer un risque. Mais le projectile doit survivre à à l'enfer." -- Behr Maximum

Rich

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ted,
All of it is more disection of the Line of Charm, which equates to all things good, bad and evil. (in Berh-ian terms)

A good example of a hole to look at would be of the Alps or even the Himilayas at NGLA. Both holes offer respite by a less non-taxing way to get to the hole. However, one is challenged at least once, maybe even twice in getting on to the green.

When Behr is using the word "kick" I think he is more or less intimating the features on and around the green that feed the ball into the green and towards the hole, like a play off of a hillside or Redan-like kick feature.

[Ted Kramer]

Ted,
All of it is more disection of the Line of Charm, which equates to all things good, bad and evil. (in Berh-ian terms)

A good example of a hole to look at would be of the Alps or even the Himilayas at NGLA. Both holes offer respite by a less non-taxing way to get to the hole. However, one is challenged at least once, maybe even twice in getting on to the green.

When Behr is using the word "kick" I think he is more or less intimating the features on and around the green that feed the ball into the green and towards the hole, like a play off of a hillside or Redan-like kick feature.

Interesting.
Thanks.

-Ted

[Tony_Muldoon]

Grande pensée stratégique de défi de trous principalement. La connaissance de ce qu'à faire n'est pas immédiate. Elle doit être cherchée. La ligne de la compétence n'est pas évidente mais est cachée dans la ligne de la pensée. Ce premier doit être déterminé, et la pensée est faillible. La vue est rarement ainsi. Sur un cours pénal nous voyons quoi éviter. Un bon projectile est la seule évasion du mal. Mais sur un cours stratégique nous devons étudier quoi conquérir. Il y a en effet des itinéraires sûrs facultatifs qui peuvent être pris. Dans la plupart des cas la boule peut être donnée un coup de pied au trou sans rencontrer un risque. Mais le projectile doit survivre à à l'enfer." -- Behr Maximum

Rich

Interessant.
Merci.

-A.

[Paul_Turner]

Ted

When the ball is forced to "weather hell" I think he's reasoning that it's very close to danger.  i.e. your heart will be in your mouth watching the shot.

[TEPaul]

Ted:

To understand Max Behr's writing you have to first learn "Behr-Speak". The man can take a fairly simple concept and turn it into the height of grandiloquence.

What he's talking about in the end of that quote is just what  strategic architecture is---ie multi-options.

When he says one can 'kick the ball to the hole' he means one could probably putt it all the way to the hole if one really wanted just to be ultra safe but if one wanted to be aggressive and really score one must take the high risk/high reward option. Behr didn't say one was "forced" to do that, he only mentioned that if one CHOSE that option then that shot must weather hell (high risk). When Behr spoke of that high risk shot he called it "THE" shot (not just the shot--eg any old shot)----'THE Shot must weather hell'.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
Yes, in that context you are absolutely right. (My bad for not  reading it more carefully) but from seeing some of his courses, you can see features that were able to kick the golf ball into certain tee or even fairway positions, and that was instantly what I was thinking of. Some of these areas are almost like targets for which to aim at, and it's obvious when looking at them they were carefuly crafted as such. Max was into creating certain movements, or in the very least refining natural ones.

Of course many of them are no longer used or maintained as such.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
Also of note, many of these areas were for "Sporting Play" where the ground game dictated really interesting and fun play.

Now it's all Drop & Stop Technology®

[Ted Kramer]

Ted:

To understand Max Behr's writing you have to first learn "Behr-Speak". The man can take a fairly simple concept and turn it into the height of grandiloquence.

What he's talking about in the end of that quote is just what  strategic architecture is---ie multi-options.

When he says one can 'kick the ball to the hole' he means one could probably putt it all the way to the hole if one really wanted just to be ultra safe but if one wanted to be aggressive and really score one must take the high risk/high reward option. Behr didn't say one was "forced" to do that, he only mentioned that if one CHOSE that option then that shot must weather hell (high risk). When Behr spoke of that high risk shot he called it "THE" shot (not just the shot--eg any old shot)----'THE Shot must weather hell'.

Tom,

Very nicely done!
Thanks.
I haven't read any of Max Behr's books, can you recommend one for me to begin with?

-Ted

[Patrick_Mucci]

The following quote was used in a thread on BSG.

"Great strategic holes primarily challenge thought. Knowledge of what to do is not immediate. It must be sought. The line of skill is not obvious but is concealed in the line of thought. This first has to be determined, and thought is fallible. Sight is rarely so. On a penal course we see what to avoid. A good shot is the mere evasion of evil. But on a strategic course we must study what to conquer. There are indeed optional safe routes that may be taken. In most cases the ball may be kicked to the hole without encountering a hazard. But the shot must weather hell." -- Max Behr

I have a question with regards to Mr. Behr's quote.
With regards to "optional safe routes that may be taken" on a strategic course . . .

How can the ball, "be kicked to the hole without encountering a hazard." but also be forced to  "weather hell".

I'd offer the 16th hole at NGLA as the embodiment of the principle.[/color]

[Ted Kramer]

The following quote was used in a thread on BSG.

"Great strategic holes primarily challenge thought. Knowledge of what to do is not immediate. It must be sought. The line of skill is not obvious but is concealed in the line of thought. This first has to be determined, and thought is fallible. Sight is rarely so. On a penal course we see what to avoid. A good shot is the mere evasion of evil. But on a strategic course we must study what to conquer. There are indeed optional safe routes that may be taken. In most cases the ball may be kicked to the hole without encountering a hazard. But the shot must weather hell." -- Max Behr

I have a question with regards to Mr. Behr's quote.
With regards to "optional safe routes that may be taken" on a strategic course . . .

How can the ball, "be kicked to the hole without encountering a hazard." but also be forced to  "weather hell".

I'd offer the 16th hole at NGLA as the embodiment of the principle.[/color]

I'll try to remember that if I ever get the chance to play there.

-Ted

[A_Clay_Man]

I too thought of the gg option which is enhanced by unpredictability and requires thought, likely skirting some nearby nastiness, that could be interpreted as hell. .

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Ted,
One thing that might help...in the original article, when Behr says "the shot must weather Hell." The is in bold and italics...not sure if that was clear in your reading of it, but it might help make the last line more understandable.
Geoff

[JESII]

Let's be honest Ted, I looked on your profile and it says you're 30. Assuming that is correct, there is no chance you have consumed enough red wine to make any sense of what Max Behr says.




Seriously though, Tom Paul is as fluent in Behrish as anyone on this board. I'd take his assesment pretty straight.

[TEPaul]

"I haven't read any of Max Behr's books, can you recommend one for me to begin with?"

Ted:

I'm sorry I can't but I certainly wish I could. Unfortunately, Max Behr never wrote a book, only a series of articles on golf, golf rules, golf architecture and other things to do with golf over a period of perhaps 25 years. Behr's articles are fascinating and quite interconnected philosophically---to do with golf architecture anyway.

Geoff Shackelford and perhaps me seem to be his biggest modern day fans and proponents and unfortunately neither of us seem to have been able to find what we believe to be all his articles. A few of them were in some pretty obscure and local magazines such as "The West Coast Golf, Polo and Mixed Croquet" magazine.

Max Behr's philosophy on architecture and his messages on the dangers to both golf (for a variety of reasons) and golf architecture are really something else once you take the time to decipher his writing style. As you can probably garner from that quote in your first post Behr had this rather bizarre, grandiloquent and sort of labyrinthian style of writing, so as amazing as his messages and his philosophy truly are, obviously a lot of people in his time as well as today had and have a hard time understanding him.

But not to worry---the excellent golf writer of today, Geoff Shackelford, promises to write a book translating and better explaining Behr and the meaning of his architectural philosophy.

However, GeoffShac apparently isn't starting the book on Behr until and unless that other dedicated Behr disciple, TommyN, get to X lbs. I don't know what that is, I only know I think it's pretty neat and also appropriately bizarre considering it somewhat relates to Max who most certainly wasn't a stranger to the off-beat.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ted Kramer,

Read "Scotland's Gift" and "The Evangelist of Golf" and you'll have a good understanding of the hole and the concept.

[Mark_Guiniven]

The 'shot' isn't going to follow the same path as the 'kick'. Presumably, you're trying to get the ball into the hole in fewer strokes than your opponent so you're going to take some sort of risk. That's what I take away from it.



"Great strategic holes primarily challenge thought. Knowledge of what to do is not immediate. It must be sought. The line of skill is not obvious but is concealed in the line of thought. This first has to be determined, and thought is fallible. Sight is rarely so. On a penal course we see what to avoid. A good shot is the mere evasion of evil. But on a strategic course we must study what to conquer. There are indeed optional safe routes that may be taken. In most cases the ball may be kicked to the hole without encountering a hazard. But the shot must weather hell."

I think Behr and Mackenzie's men may have been trying to build some kind of mechanism to stimulate player improvement into their holes. Focus the golfer's mind on something to 'conquer' as Behr says, rather than put the fear in them of everything they wanted to avoid. Isn't this the precise direction modern sports psychology has taken? Visualise the good result not all the possible bad ones?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mark,
Thanks for posting this. I was just getting ready to post some pictures of a feature at Oakmont CC in Glendale, California when a bunch of phone calls came-in, and it held me up.

It was a good thing too! That drawing from Golf Architecture has me bettering understanding the features of the hole I'm going to post here! It's reverse, but it is similar to some degree and it may further explain to me what once existed there and maybe even how to recover it. (if Brian Curley is listening! )

Here are the pics:

From the fairway @ #3, when out there for the very first time around February or March, I saw the following of this Behr designed course. The feature in question is quite obviously a similar feature as in the MacKenzie drawing, as well as a upward movement that has to be carried for a optimum approach in the fairway that would follow similar to the creekbed in MacKenzie's drawing, only flip-flopped. It's one of the features I was talking about earlier, that is no longer maintained as it was designed. The penalty for missing it left, is in the bottom photo, and quite obviously it isn't a completely harsh penalty nowadays, because one could just take a lob wedge and pop it up there, but back in the day of firm and fast, as well as close cropping this particular area instead of thick rough grass, well it would have been extremely tough, and a perfect example of Ted's question.

Mind you that the image is taken much close up in the fairway then where an approach would end up.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom Paul,
The bet was 100 pounds for 1 Max Behr book. I've held-up my end of the bargain so far, I have the unfinished manuscript and a phone conversation with Geoff on Friday that he's working on it and the need to do some more research. I can only hope this isn't some sort of "check's in the mail" excuse!

Actually, he is in fact working on it, and I have complete faith its going to get done! He hasn't ever failed me yet!

[Mark_Guiniven]

I like it Tommy.

Although I think that 'spine' of contour in front of the green in the Mackenzie sketch could also be used from a position just left of centre in the fairway to 'bank' it around the bunker to a pin tucked front-left. I don't see that in your pics.

In the Spirit of St. Andrews didn't Mackenzie mention how he once wanted to move the Pinciple's Nose or Deacon Sime bunker ten yards over to the left, only to have Ted Blackwell say you would then be moving them to the exact point I try to drive? I'm just going off memory, but it's kind of like the redan pics you threw up a couple of days ago—how just a slight change in angle affects what reaction you can get off that slope. Like snooker.

I suppose that's how you take the word 'kick' to mean. We use that term downunder too, but in the actual quote I took Behr literally to mean 'kick' the way Mackenzie might say "play the hole with a putter", ie, the complete avoidance of carry or risk.

What article is the Behr quote from anyway?

[Ted Kramer]

Ted,
One thing that might help...in the original article, when Behr says "the shot must weather Hell." The is in bold and italics...not sure if that was clear in your reading of it, but it might help make the last line more understandable.
Geoff

Geoff,

Thanks for pointing that out.
Neither the bold nor the italics were in the text that I read.
If those very relevant details had been included, I doubt that I would have been quite as puzzled.

Thank you.

-Ted

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mark,
It isn't that the holes are alike, the point is that the feature is similar. You might not be able to see it, but there is a small build-up that aims the ball towards the back right of the green of the portion of approach that junts outward, similar to the MacKenzie example. It's that feature in particular I'm finding interest in.  

The left side embankment of the green itself is the penalty for missing it left. Also, I've added another image form the right side of the fairway, showing how the approach junts out there, similar to the Mac hole.

I'm sure the quote from Bomb Squad was one found here somewhere and that someone posted it there. Over there, you ask them who Max Behr is and they'll tell you it's Jethro Bodine's father. (Of the 1960's Beverly Hillbillies television show, which you probably don't get down under. The characters actual real life father was the prize fighter, Max Baer)'

Once again the Paulian description of kick the ball to the hole is a correct one.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I also forgot to add that the CC shown in these images is a perfect example of how NOT to maintain a classic course designed by Max Behr.

The really sad thing about it is a friend of mine I've known since grade school is the superintendent there. He is an excellent superintendent who I feel is not being allowed to maintain the course to the standards he is capable of.

Ted, see what you started!

[Mark_Guiniven]

I needed that third pic, but I've got you now Tommy.

Read page 69 of SoSA mate.

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