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Sean_A

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ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST GC: Its No Pooh New
« on: August 05, 2013, 12:39:32 PM »
Not 30 minutes from Gatwick and 30 miles south of London is the small and nearly quaint town of Forest Row. This isn’t terribly important other than to introduce Ashdown Forest which is cheek by jowl with the town. The public section of the forest is about 10 square miles in size; much of the common land is rolling, open heathland which in times gone by was a hunting ground.  Of course, AA Milne immortalized the forest as the setting for his Winnie The Pooh adventures.  But it isn’t Poohsticks which attracts golfers to the area; it is the Royal Ashdown GC. Shortly after the Ashdown Forest Act was adopted, the former owner of the land, Earl De La Warr, paved the way to found the club in 1888. Ashdown is one of the oldest clubs in England and one of the earliest to be honoured with the title of “Royal”, in 1893.  The second oldest artisan club in England, The Cantelupe Club, has been attached to Ashdown since 1893.  It is this club which produced the great Abe Mitchell.  Alf Padgham (1936 Open Champion) and Frank Pennink were also members at one time during their career.  Incidentally, the oldest artisan club in England is Northam, home of the mighty JH Taylor. 

The clubhouse exudes a rare charm and feels as if it hasn’t been altered since opening.  Despite the royal title, the club is well known for being gracious to visitors and many of the top set societies visit year after year to play The Old Course and The West Course. The West started out as the home of The Ashdown Forest and Tunbridge Wells Ladies GC in 1889, the second oldest ladies course in England behind Sunningdale Ladies.  Of course, the unusual aspect of both courses is that bunkers are prohibited by the Forest Conservators. Despite popular rhetoric, quite a bit of dirt was obviously pushed about to add interest and make a few of the more unruly green sites playable.  The main defences of the course are natural; the never less than undulating terrain and the ever-present wind.  Many people praise the site, but I think there is too much up and down to provide truly first class golf.  That said, the terrain does yield the sterling stretch of 6 thru 9 and the back nine trio of 12, 14 and 17.

Make no mistake, the deck chair societies visit Ashdown with regularity.


The first is a curious opening hole playing over a large hollow, crossing the 18th, down a severely canted left to right fairway with a side by side two tier green - that was a lot it get out.


Another interesting green site awaits at #2.


While not bad, #s 3 and 4 largely make up the numbers.  That brings us to the fifth, a short par 5 protected by a mess of evil vegetation and a stream shy of the green.


The short 6th is very fine; a plateau green with water front and down the left and swales down the right.  First photo is from the rear of the green and the second is from the 7th tee.




The best section of the course continues on #7.  An uphill drive turns hard right and eventually to a green higher up the slope.   




The par 5 eighth is arguably Ashdown's best three-shotter.  The fairway is bisected by rough with the green marooned behind mounding.


Behind the green.


Ashdown must have been even more heroic penal than Brancaster in its day!  The side ends with another hole requiring a carry to the green or some sort of harum scarum run through the hills. Playing uphill and with all carry, the 9th is death or glory.  The photo was taken perhaps 25 yards shy of the green.


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 06:11:50 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Sean_A

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Re: Royal Ashdown Is Not Pooh New
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2013, 03:58:09 AM »
ROYAL ASHDOWN CONTINUED

#s 10 & 11 are rather prosaic.  Though the tenth has a somewhat interesting shelf green.  The 11th is a 250 yard one-shotter which does have the slightly redeeming feature of the length being difficult to judge on firm ground.  Things pick back up for the three-shotter 12th.  Playing across a hill, accurately guessing how much the cant of the fairway will bring the tee shot left is a challenge.


Darwin's proclamation that "...with pleasurable shock that there isn't a single hideous rampart or so much as a pot bunker." rings hollow.  The number of fairways cut off by long grass/mounding is surely an indicator that Ashdown could benefit immensely from well placed bold bunkering. The second and third shots.




Ashdown could fairly be called "target" golf.  The 13th is another example.  So is the par 3 fourteenth, but its a fine example of the type.  Coined, Mitchell's Dip, this 200 yarder is nearly all carry.  This plaque is on the tee, although I don't believe it is accurate. My understanding is the golfer on the top of the cup isn't based on anybody.


A look at the difficulties just short of the green.


This could well be my favourite green.  The drop off on the left is splendid.


I previously didn't mention the 15th as a highlight hole, yet it does have the attributes of exciting golf.  Perhaps if the hole were 25 or so yards less in length the temptation factor would heighten the effect of Padgham's Carry.   


Padgham's Carry.  Alf Padgham was the winner of the 1936 Open at Hoylake and played in three Ryder Cups. 


#16 is a bit of a throw-away hole.  Yet another green with access blocked by mounding.  Now then, #17!  Comfortably one of the best holes on the course and the only very long two-shotter.  The tee shot is blind, but a helpful marker pole indicates the line is just left of the trees which separate #s 16 & 17.  If one is uncomfortable with that advice, it is possible to steer left, but as in a few places dotted around the course, jungle rough awaits the tweeked shot.  A long and accurate drive will leave a long approach over a valley to a green benched into the hillside right.




The home hole is an odd duck.  Crossing the first fairway, its very easy to leak a drive right and be caught behind trees.  On the other hand, staying left brings the rough which bisects the fairway into play.


The rough was reasonably burned out, but usually I wouldn't think golfers would entertain dancing in this grass.


Perhaps people are more enthralled with the course because of the rarity of no bunkers, however, the design is quite singular in how the challenge is presented.  There is the odd bit of coping with the slopes of the hills, but for the most part the course consistently throttles the long ball and requires aerial approaches.  This must have been highly unusual in its day, but in a very real sense Ashdown is a blueprint for modern championship golf.  Despite the grand site and robust reputation, I find Ashdown a bit too one dimensional.  Additionally, I didn't care for the up and down nature of the design especially as so many holes attacked straight uphill or ran straight downhill.  Balancing the scales, the house is very attractive and if one really enjoys this aspect of a day out then heaven it is.  2013

Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/royalashdown1/

Ciao 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 06:54:35 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2013, 04:45:59 AM »
Hi Sean,

Thanks for the tour - I'll try and throw up some of my sunny photos from June also.

I liked Ashdown Forest. 5,6,7 was a really good run and I liked 8 & 9 too... 12th was a cracker with an almost too severe side-slope... The use of heather mounds and streams were expertly used and I think I might disagree with you that it is essentially an aerial course, despite a few forced carry approaches... I would agree with you that there was a little bit too much of routing holes up and down hills. It's not a particularly easy walk and I found myself slightly disappointed that we were about to head up a huge hill at 16 to take us further away from the clubhouse and just come straight back down again...

But these things are relatively minor - I found quite a lot of variety, a wonderful old-world feel, a beautiful clubhouse and some really singular golf holes.

In my recent trip, placed it behind West Sussex but on a par with The Addington...

Ally

Sean_A

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2013, 05:06:29 AM »
In my recent trip, placed it behind West Sussex but on a par with The Addington...

Wow!  Addington is not in favour with me these days because of their maintenance practices, but I don't believe Ashdown is really that close Addy's quality.

Lets look at the aerial/target aspect of Ashdown

#1 - fairway
#2 - green
#3 - green
#5 - green
#6 - green
#7 - green & fairway cutoff
#8 - green & fairway cutoff
#9 - green
#12 - fairway cutoff
#13 - fairway cutoff
#14 - green
#15 - green
#16 - green
#17 - fairway
#18 - fairway cutoff  

And I cited seven of these as really good, but enough is enough.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2013, 05:28:47 AM »
Sean,

Now you mention it above and I as I walk through the holes, there are quite a lot of aerial requirements in to the greens... But I still found myself using the ground a fair bit so it didn't feel repetitive... And let's be honest, quite often you only need a 10-15 yard run-in so forced carries can be red herrings... I found 18 to be a little bit of quirky genius actually, maybe because I judged and played my 3-iron off the tee exactly where I meant to, the narrow sliver of fairway to the left which gave me the best angle to land one at the front and let it release...

I thought RAF uses the hazards really well... Addington would need to do something with its maintenance practices and playability for me to rate it as highly as some, excellent course though it obviously is...

Would need more plays to really put them up against each other...

Sean_A

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2013, 05:53:12 AM »
Ally

Interestingly, I picked three of the forced carry par 3s as highlights; 6, 9 & 14.  9 was a real surprise because I didn't really think it would be all carry.  One big disappointment is the par 4s.  Ashdown doesn't have many which are recommended.  

If you like what was done at Ashdown make your way to Kington.  It is a much better course, strategically using the slopes of the hills much better than at Ashdown.  For me, Kington remains the undisputed champ of bunkerless golf.  If Ashdown is a Doak 7 ???, then Kington is a 9.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2013, 11:02:41 AM »
Great pictures Sean and thanks for the message.
Addington over RAF?

Ronald Montesano

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2013, 09:28:38 AM »
Did the photos disappear for anyone else?
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

Sean_A

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2013, 07:49:04 PM »
Sorry, my bandwith was chewed up.  I am back in the cycle now.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2013, 03:44:54 AM »
Ok I'll grant you the up and down isn't ideal but I still think this deserves a place as a cool place to play (pause) ...in part because it demonstrates you don't need bunkers.  There are other alternatives available.   Incidentally broken ground before the green or across the fairway seems to eb a Heathalnds feature and I have no problem with it.  Too long ago for me to remember the detail but I didn’t think it was overdone.

One of the things it got me to reflect on is how insipid and benign so many bunkers are.  So often it’s as if the Architect/Committee though it didn't look like a golf hole until there were some splashes of sand included.  Most of which can be ignored.  I recently played Pitrevie and the way the good Doctor repeatedly used a single creek around the hill there was inspiring. I’d rather take my chances in the bunker on the 4th at RSG than see my ball career towards a natural winding creek.  Some of the features (like Painswick) are more than 10’ deep and present a real challenge to extract yourself form. (Incidentally winding features play much larger than straight line ones do)

I wasn’t expecting a classic or ‘lock’ course, so maybe I had less ot be disappointed about.  Still think all of this group would have a rather grand day out at RAF.

ps Have yet to see Kington but we have a house party nearby in 53 weeks time.  Expect my call!

I know I wasn’t asked but… The Addington has thrills and spills like few inland courses.  RAF never touches those highs.
on 29th May I am riding 100 Miles to help raise funds for Dementia Research. All donations are welcome.
https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ridelondon-tonymuldoon

Sean_A

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2013, 04:25:08 AM »
Ok I'll grant you the up and down isn't ideal but I still think this deserves a place as a cool place to play (pause) ...in part because it demonstrates you don't need bunkers.  There are other alternatives available.   Incidentally broken ground before the green or across the fairway seems to eb a Heathalnds feature and I have no problem with it.  Too long ago for me to remember the detail but I didn’t think it was overdone.

One of the things it got me to reflect on is how insipid and benign so many bunkers are.  So often it’s as if the Architect/Committee though it didn't look like a golf hole until there were some splashes of sand included.  Most of which can be ignored.  I recently played Pitrevie and the way the good Doctor repeatedly used a single creek around the hill there was inspiring. I’d rather take my chances in the bunker on the 4th at RSG than see my ball career towards a natural winding creek.  Some of the features (like Painswick) are more than 10’ deep and present a real challenge to extract yourself form. (Incidentally winding features play much larger than straight line ones do)

I wasn’t expecting a classic or ‘lock’ course, so maybe I had less ot be disappointed about.  Still think all of this group would have a rather grand day out at RAF.

ps Have yet to see Kington but we have a house party nearby in 53 weeks time.  Expect my call!

I know I wasn’t asked but… The Addington has thrills and spills like few inland courses.  RAF never touches those highs.


Spangles

Well, I had two guys down the Smoke (well, maybe one) tell me RAF was great - so I played it.  I don't see anything close to greatness at RAF.  Although I don't really like so much target golf, I have to give the club kudos for being so original at such an early stage of golf development in England.  Mind you, the rough bisecting fairways may be a newish idea. Still, the number of greens requiring an aerial approach is quite novel in my experience of English golf.

I agree with the use of bunkering much of the time.  Complete waste of energy. However, don't you think RAF could benefit from 25ish well placed bunkers?  Think of Huntercombe and it doesn't have anything close to 25 - with a few being a waste of space.  The bunkers do add quite a bit of spice though.

Ah well, I was disappointed with RAF, but hey ho, life goes on.

BTW - Berkhampsted is every bit the measure of RAF and an easier if less beautiful walk.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 04:27:44 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Dale Jackson

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2013, 01:28:08 PM »
Sean, thanks for the photos, it brought back great memories of a 36 hole day, one round on both 18s, three years ago, played in the company of RAF members.  I found it a fascinating, unique and enjoyable golfing experience.

Would it be improved by the addition of a few bunkers?  Perhaps in a strict sense but isn't it nice to be able to experience something quite different and to see, on the ground, the options in course design that don't involve bunkering.  I hope they never change that part of their courses.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 06:16:15 PM »

Would it be improved by the addition of a few bunkers?  Perhaps in a strict sense but isn't it nice to be able to experience something quite different and to see, on the ground, the options in course design that don't involve bunkering.  I hope they never change that part of their courses.

+1

For the visitor a better course might not give a better experience?
on 29th May I am riding 100 Miles to help raise funds for Dementia Research. All donations are welcome.
https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ridelondon-tonymuldoon

Sean_A

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2013, 04:34:04 AM »

Would it be improved by the addition of a few bunkers?  Perhaps in a strict sense but isn't it nice to be able to experience something quite different and to see, on the ground, the options in course design that don't involve bunkering.  I hope they never change that part of their courses.

+1

+2, even if I don't think RAF pulled off the no bunker deal all that well considering its reputation and the quality of the turf (which is splendid!). 

I know I wasn’t asked but… The Addington has thrills and spills like few inland courses.  RAF never touches those highs. - Si.  Imagine RAF's maintenance at Addington!!!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2013, 02:10:41 PM »

Would it be improved by the addition of a few bunkers?  Perhaps in a strict sense but isn't it nice to be able to experience something quite different and to see, on the ground, the options in course design that don't involve bunkering.  I hope they never change that part of their courses.

+1

+2, even if I don't think RAF pulled off the no bunker deal all that well considering its reputation and the quality of the turf (which is splendid!). 

I know I wasn’t asked but… The Addington has thrills and spills like few inland courses.  RAF never touches those highs. - Si.  Imagine RAF's maintenance at Addington!!!

Ciao

I will need to see The Addington again - I'm not convinced.

Although I agree - clear out the undergrowth (massively), reinstate the mowing lines and widen out the greens where they've shrunk... and The Addington has a better set of holes and shot values than does RAF...

But the ground and site that RAF is situated on will always make for a more pleasurable feel than the closed in, cityscape of The Addington... There must be few more peaceful places to play...

Sean_A

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is Not Pooh
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2013, 08:25:17 PM »

Would it be improved by the addition of a few bunkers?  Perhaps in a strict sense but isn't it nice to be able to experience something quite different and to see, on the ground, the options in course design that don't involve bunkering.  I hope they never change that part of their courses.

+1

+2, even if I don't think RAF pulled off the no bunker deal all that well considering its reputation and the quality of the turf (which is splendid!). 

I know I wasn’t asked but… The Addington has thrills and spills like few inland courses.  RAF never touches those highs. - Si.  Imagine RAF's maintenance at Addington!!!

Ciao

I will need to see The Addington again - I'm not convinced.

Although I agree - clear out the undergrowth (massively), reinstate the mowing lines and widen out the greens where they've shrunk... and The Addington has a better set of holes and shot values than does RAF...

But the ground and site that RAF is situated on will always make for a more pleasurable feel than the closed in, cityscape of The Addington... There must be few more peaceful places to play...

Ally

I think both courses are too severe to be considered top notch golf.  In the case of Addington, the bridges help the walk and the design is very sensible over that terrain.  I don't think I can say the same for RAF.  RAF feels very much like an amateur archie did the job.  I think it is likely there is a better course on that site.  It would be interesting to see what a clever archie today would come up with - even without sand.  

I am still stunned that Doak rated RAF a 7 over Deal's 6. Whatever the number one gives to each (for me RAF is 5 tops), surely Deal must be minimum a clear 2 points higher.  

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Paul_Turner

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is No Pooh
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2013, 09:55:26 PM »
I can't let this negative review go unchallenged.  

RAF is one of England's great courses,  what a fine variety of holes with many unusual hazards; what a wonderful walk too that's hardly strenuous.  

Many spectacular shots at holes like 5,6,7,8,12,15 and 17 but the subtle stuff is excellent too like the natural 10th green site and simple tilted greens like the 9th.

I get a feeling this course is a bit like Hoylake, you either love it or don't.

PS
It's way better than Yelverton
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 09:57:30 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is No Pooh
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2013, 04:43:14 AM »
Paul

Its not a negative review.  The review is not glowing, but it is an honest one which concludes that RAF is not a great course and doesn't belong in the same sentence with England's true greats.  RAF is, however, a good course with several good holes and one excellent hole, maybe two - not sure about the 6th.  There are also mundane shots on offer punctuated with an uninspired routing marching up and down, quite a singular design mode of forcing aerial shots/cut offs and many benign greens.  

I think on balance RAF would win a matchplay against Yelverton, but it doesn't have anymore top notch holes - Yelv wins out here.  Plus, Yelv has a good set of long 4s, something RAF is desperately lacking - the par 5s aren't good enough to make up for the lack of long ball shots.  Both are on lovely sites though I prefer the long range views at Dartmoor and the walk at Yelv.  Critically, boths sets of greens are not much speak of.  I think its pretty much a wash between the two.  And for guys who don't want to spend a lot on golf, Yelv is less than half the price of RAF (which is over-priced at £65) - a true bargain.


Ciao
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 06:01:42 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Mark Chaplin

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is No Pooh
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2013, 04:54:50 AM »
Sean average house prices in Yelverton are £304k in Forest Row it's £577k so the golf course being double the price isn't surprising!
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is No Pooh
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2013, 05:54:54 AM »
Sean average house prices in Yelverton are £304k in Forest Row it's £577k so the golf course being double the price isn't surprising!

Chappers

Sure, not surprising because everything in the Home Counties is price inflated, but its not justified based on the quality of the courses. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Paul_Turner

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is No Pooh
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2013, 06:42:57 AM »
Sean

RAF doesn't have any top notch holes?  I know it's only opinion but, that's a bizarre claim  5,6,7,8,12,15,17 are great holes.

It's one of the best inland courses in the country.


can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is No Pooh
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2013, 07:05:44 AM »
Sean

RAF doesn't have any top notch holes?  I know it's only opinion but, that's a bizarre claim  5,6,7,8,12,15,17 are great holes.

It's one of the best inland courses in the country.

Paul

No, I think #17 is excellent and possibly #6.  Other good holes include 5, 7, 8, 9, 12, 14 and possibly 15 (undecided).  Do you see a repetitive nature about these holes?  #s 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 14 and 15 all require aerial approaches and/or are cut off in the fairway.  A course can only do that thing so often.  For me, there just isn't nearly enough variety to call RAF great or one of the best inland courses in the country.  There are plenty of inland courses I would take in a heartbeat over RAF.      

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Paul_Turner

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is No Pooh
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2013, 07:22:19 AM »
Sean

I guess you wouldn't like Pine Valley ;)
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is No Pooh
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2013, 07:30:07 AM »
Sean

I guess you wouldn't like Pine Valley ;)

Yes, just like TOC can break all the rules.  Some courses have this luxury, but nearly all do not.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

John Mayhugh

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Re: ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST Is No Pooh
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2013, 12:40:45 PM »
Thanks for the tour.  RAF has long been on my list of courses I want to see, in no small part due to Thomas Dunne's article from several years ago.
http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/golf-an-enchanted-place

The course looks more extreme than I imagined it, but I'm still no less eager to visit.

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