[Dave Doxey]

I was surprised that Chambers Bay had a local rule allowing players to remove rocks & stones in bunkers.


Shouldn't proper bunker construction & maintenance eliminate the need for such a situation?

[Bill_McBride]

It's allowed in the R&A rules and should be in the USGA's, one of the rare divergences.    You can get a rock near your ball even in well-maintained bunkers.

[Mike Schott]

There were numerous comments during he telecast on this topic. Chambers Bay is built on an old rock quarry. The chances that the construction removed all of the stones is nil.

[Dave Doxey]

There were numerous comments during he telecast on this topic. Chambers Bay is built on an old rock quarry. The chances that the construction removed all of the stones is nil.

I heard those comments.  Sounded like an odd excuse.  Aren't there stones on most course construction sites?  I assumed that bunkers are built with drainage & sometimes lining, and that sand put in them is sifted. 


I asked hoping to hear more about bunker construction & maintenance.  Interesting to learn of the difference in rules between R&A and USGA.

[Carson Pilcher]

I would think that a bunker is a "hazard".  If you get a stone near your ball, then tough luck.  I am not sure when it became expected that you get a perfect lie in a bunker.  Professionals actually aim for the bunkers now in lieu of the rough because they know it is a consistent lie.

[Andrew Buck]

There were numerous comments during he telecast on this topic. Chambers Bay is built on an old rock quarry. The chances that the construction removed all of the stones is nil.

I heard those comments.  Sounded like an odd excuse.  Aren't there stones on most course construction sites?  I assumed that bunkers are built with drainage & sometimes lining, and that sand put in them is sifted. 


I asked hoping to hear more about bunker construction & maintenance.  Interesting to learn of the difference in rules between R&A and USGA.

I would guess there are stones in bunkers on 75% of the courses in the US, the 11,000 or so that aren't a focus of this site.

[Jason Thurman]

I'm big on bunkers playing as hazards, but the safety argument of avoiding pebbles and rocks flying out of bunkers is a reasonable one. For the average player, it's also nice to think you're not obligated to destroy a $120 wedge if you hit the ball into a bunker.


How was the sand save percentage at Chambers as compared to other courses? From what I saw, the bunkers played more like hazards than any other tournament I've watched recently.

[David_Tepper]

"I would think that a bunker is a "hazard".  If you get a stone near your ball, then tough luck.  I am not sure when it became expected that you get a perfect lie in a bunker."

Carson P. -

Unless I am mistaken, bunkers are treated differently in the rules from other hazards in some respects. One is allowed to remove unnatural objects (objects made of metal, plastic, glass, etc.) from a bunker. One is not allowed to remove those objects from a hazard marked by yellow or red stakes.

DT

[Mark Molyneux]

I'm inclined to agree with Carson... if you happen to find yourself in a hazard and there's a pebble that could affect your shot, you might want to be somewhere else the next time but for now play the ball as it lies. I've hit hundreds of pebbles out of bunkers and onto greens. I pick them up after I get out. I wouldn't think of safety considerations beyond what cautioning people nearby who might get hit by a pebble (or a ball) and as for damaging a club? It's never happened to me in a bunker (and I play the rough tracks as well as the good ones). I've hit buried rocks in fairways and damaged clubs. Should I ask for relief the next time I'm near a rock in a hazard that isn't a sand bunker?

[Ben Sims]

Shouldn't proper bunker construction & maintenance eliminate the need for such a situation?

Dave,

That depends on what you consider proper bunker construction. Some courses import sand. In many cases, this sand has been washed, bleached (or dyed), and highly refined for uniform grains. This sand is then placed into a hole with a liner. This liner can be many different materials. What you'll find most common is either a fibrous membrane tacked into the bunker or sod used as a bunker liner. Under this liner you'll find a fairly uniform bunker bottom with some type of drainage installed; most likely in a herringbone pattern using a french drain technique. I would argue that this process is the most common in the United States. Certainly our friends in GB&I have different techniques to include the sod-faced flat-bottomed bunker.

At places most associated with the modern links style and built on sand (examples include Bandon, Ballyneal and even Chambers Bay to a lesser extent) a much more natural technique is used. The bunker is dug, and the remaining natural sand becomes the bunker. Some hand work may or may not be done to make the bunker more aesthetically pleasing, but the wind and water shape the bunker over the course of the bunker's life. They evolve. Based on the natural sandy soils, installed drainage is minimal. In some cases I am sure there are bunker liners, but you'd be hard pressed to identify which ones have them just by looking. I am sure that Chambers has a few liners, but I'm not sure about Bandon, B'neal, Sand Hills or Dismal.

So, why have liners? The liner does exactly what it sounds like. It lines the bunker and forms a water permeable barrier between sand and soil. This protects the drainage system if there is one. But it also prevents surface migration of things that aren't sand. This could be soil not associated with the bunker that you don't want migrating into the sand as well as for pebbles and rocks.

As previously mentioned, Chambers Bay is built on a former aggregate mine. This aggregate was refined into rip rap, gravel, construction material, and sand. There are many bunkers at Chambers Bay where surface migration of rocks and pebbles is a real issue. This is related to two things 1) lack of a bunkers liner between the "native" soil and bunker sand and 2) the fact that its a former aggregate mine.

Bottom Line: The pebbles and small rocks in some of the bunkers at Chambers Bay has nothing to do with bunker construction. It is a result of the sand used (refined sand from the site itself), the sheer number of rocks/pebbles on the site, and the inefficiency of lining every bunker on a colf course with 18+ acres of sand on it.

[Phil McDade]

I'm big on bunkers playing as hazards, but the safety argument of avoiding pebbles and rocks flying out of bunkers is a reasonable one. For the average player, it's also nice to think you're not obligated to destroy a $120 wedge if you hit the ball into a bunker.

Well, you can avoid damaging your $120 wedge by taking a drop.

[Jason Thurman]

I've hit buried rocks in fairways and damaged clubs. Should I ask for relief the next time I'm near a rock in a hazard that isn't a sand bunker?

You do know what a loose impediment is, right? No need to ask for relief, just remove the rock. That's what we're talking about here, not guys bringing in excavators and digging out giant boulders under their ball.


I think you guys are making more out of this than it really is. Guys weren't removing rocks lying underneath their ball. They weren't permitted to improve the lie of their ball. They were just permitted, under local rule, to remove rocks from near their ball as you would otherwise remove loose impediments through the green.


Ben's post is a good one, and architecturally related. I like the idea of constructing bunkers using minimalist techniques where soil permits. If a site permits bunkers to simply be dug out and formed in the sand already present as opposed to lining and sifting and filling, and the only downside is that a course might put in a local rule to allow players to remove rocks from the unsifted sand, I'm all for it. It's no wonder this is regularly permitted in the UK and Ireland already, as I would guess a far larger percentage of bunkers in the UK and Ireland are filled with unsifted sand than in the US. Interestingly, my impression is that bunkers in the UK and Ireland are far less homogenized and play like hazards far more frequently than those in the US.

[Andy Stamm]

It's allowed in the R&A rules and should be in the USGA's, one of the rare divergences.    You can get a rock near your ball even in well-maintained bunkers.

The R&A and USGA rules do not diverge on this point. It's is fairly common for UK clubs to have a local rule (explicitly allowed by rule 13-4) allowing for the removal of stones in bunkers by deeming them movable obstructions (Rule 24-1). This would essentially be the same as the local rule used in the recent US Open. But the rule is the same, and stone removal is allowable in the UK only if there is a local rule in place, which is exactly the same as in the USGA rules.

[Jason Thurman]

Well, you can avoid damaging your $120 wedge by taking a drop.

Through the green, yes. In a bunker on a course where rocks in the sand are prevalent enough to install a local rule, taking an unplayable isn't such a great option. I guess you could do stroke and distance. Again, I just don't see any real cause for fuss about the rule at Chambers, but I don't have any problem playing hazards as hazards on every course I play personally. I have, however, wrecked a couple wedges on rocks in bunkers, and I'm not convinced the integrity of the game would've been destroyed if a local rule had permitted me to remove the loose impediments before the shot.

[Dave Doxey]

Thanks Ben. Good explanation.


I guess that I'll not be surprised by stones in bunkers.  I've not seen that situation frequently, although I do remember once getting a stone closer to the hole than I did my ball from the bunker.


I also vaguely remember a Tour event where the commentators mentioned that the bunker shot the player was hitting could go anywhere because the ball was next to a stone. (no local rule there...)


Wondering if courses had tools to remove stones, I did a bit of web searching - came with two interesting links (the second is USGA & mentions Chambers!):



http://www.hbarber.com/Cleaners/SandMan/Default.html


http://www.usga.org/course-care/2010/12/shake-n-rake-2147491406.html


We're left with the debate on local rules allowing removal of stones in bunkers.  I'm on the "play it as it lies" side.   Once we start making exceptions, it becomes a slippery slope.

[Pete_Pittock]

Liability, liability, liability. 

 

[Pat Burke]

Got a pretty nasty cut on my eyebrow once.
Friend had to withdraw after getting one in the eye in a mini tour event.
And I have had 2 wedges get gouged right in the sweet spot by rocks during
a lengthy time hitting bad approaches in to bunkers

[Ally Mcintosh]

.

[Ville Nurmi]

What is the biggest particle in sand?
and how big is a pebble?
it seems that at least in Finland, our sand is close to gravel in other parts of world...
yours,
Ville

[paul cowley]

I'd say just deal with it. Ground your club and get rid of the rakes, except for maintenance workers. If you worry about wedge damage then take an unplayable and add a stroke....same as for a tree root. Man up.

[paul cowley]

...and good bunker design shouldn't require a liner.

[Sean_A]

I can say that R&A Rule 24-1 absolutely allows for rocks to be removed in a bunker so long as your ball is not resting on the movable obstruction.  Either that or many clubs are reading the rule incorrectly!  Its a good rule for safety reasons and one which doesn't require the handling of the ball.  Golf is a game, not a death match. 


Ciao

[paul cowley]

Sean correctly states ones options regarding removable obstructions. I would also suggest that, similarly to yelling fore...one should loudly announce prior to hitting something like "take cover" or "fire in the hole!" This Game is about etiquette after all.

[mike_beene]

I am embarrassed to admit I am not sure if stroke and distance from the previous shot is available if you declare ball unplayable in a bunker. I thought your drop had to be within the bunker whether using two club lengths or back on the line to hole.

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