[ian]

Steve, Love the hole but the only shot that was hard was the last because of the green size. You have the ability to lay-up  (at 120 in) well right still on the fairway and have a great angle. I think it teases you into cutting the corner when the prudent play is well away from the corner. Hard to argue against you if it is usually over par.

I got to agree with Tom Paul that the 15th at Pine Valley is just the toughest five I have ever played. Each shot is twice as hard as the last. The psychological impact of a forced carry, followed by a narrowing corridor or trees on each successive shot, is a very powerful test for confidence.
To make par, you must produce your best.

Jeff, 8th at Crystal Downs is another great choice, that final shot is all ball breaker with the ball finishing well below the green if you on't get it there. The chip down is impossible if you long.

7th at Highland Golf links is another hole that puts the long slow squeeeze on you up to the green. I found the lay-up second was particular difficult for affective placement.

[Rich_M]

It's not open yet but I will predict that the 6th at French Creek will be a true three shot hole.  I believe that it will play over 600 yards playing significantly uphill.  Bunkers will be a factor on all three shots and the green is well protected.

[TEPaul]

Redanman said;

"Seeing MCirba post on this thread made me think of #9 at Philmont, one of William Flynn's absolute worst all-time efforts."

Redanman:

There're a lot of things I don't agree with you on about architecture and golf but you've got a great point there. That hole is a bit like driving the Daytona 500 in reverse--just step on it and turn right!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul;

William Flynn probably designed less overtly "bad" holes than any other architect in history, on average.

However, the 9th at Philmont North certainly qualifies in that category.  

The problem as I see it is that Flynn was given a site where the "south" course already existed, and to get to and from the clubhouse, he had to work over some really lousy terrain.  Thus, you have the worst holes on 1, 9, 10, 18, which really only work to get you out and back to the much better land (and seriously underrated holes) that exist on the mid stretches of each nine there.

In fact, Philmont has some of the very best Flynn holes I've seen.  It's just held back by the awkwardness of the property he was asked to work on in stretches.

[Steve Lapper]

I would submit #7 (and pehaps #10 as well) at Medinah might well be demanding par 5's to par. Both are LOOOOng and well protected from eagle or birdie(very..very rare) and both have slick greens that make putts from above or side of the pin really hard.

SHivas...and Chicago boys...you agree? I do agree #7 at Butler Nat'l also fits that bill.

[Carlyle Rood]

The 13th at Augusta has to be the "most difficult" to par!

In 2002 during the Masters:

133 pars
132 non-pars (4 eagles, 83 birdies, 35 bogeys, 10 others)

The field only parred it HALF the time!  

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