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Patrick_Evans

Principal's Nose bunkers
« on: March 24, 2003, 09:00:48 PM »
A lot of Seth Raynor courses have a "Principal's Nose" hazard in the middle of the fairway, but the positions of them aren't like the original at St. Andrews.

What is the purpose of these hazards?  What is the best example out of Raynor's courses?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2003, 09:16:34 PM »
Hmmm--Raynor built those? I can't really think of any good examples. I understand Dye/Doak put one in on the 10th at Piping Rock and it went over like a lead balloon, unfortunately. Raynor might have had something similar on Piping's #6 but I wouldn't call it that.

But what's the purpose of the "Principal's Nose" architectural feature? Isn't it obvious? It creates instant strategy--if it happens to be exactly where the golfer would sort of like to land the ball he has four choices instead of one (landing the ball at that spot)! With the Principal's Nose at that spot (ideal spot) the golfer has four distinct choices;

1. Carry it
2. Go left of it
3. Go right of it
4. Come up short of it

Golf doesn't get much more interesting or much more strategic than four distinct choices on one shot!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Evans

Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2003, 09:22:26 PM »
The bunkers I'm thinking of are like the one on #6 at Chicago Golf Club, or #1 at Piping Rock.  They look like the Principal's Nose, but they are maybe 50 yards in front of the green, NOT in the landing area of the fairway.

I think there was one on St. Louis CC also, possibly the fourth hole?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2003, 09:35:33 PM »
Tom Paul;

Raynor built a really great PN on Yale's 17th, as well, which is located about 30? yards short of the green on a long, uphill, par four.  

George Bahto can name others, I'm sure.  

Speaking of PN placement as regards Raynor, George told an amusing story the other day about a design associate of Macdonald's named Ralph Barton from Dartmouth.  Evidently, Barton on his death bed claimed responsibility for the designs of Yale, Mid Ocean, and others and felt disappointed that he wasn't given his due.

At some point during his career, he broke away from Macdonald and ended up in a solo career, primarily designing nine-holers in the New Hampshire area.  His take on the classic precepts seems to have taken some strange liberties however, as he built Principal's Nose bunkers BEHIND greens!  

Sort of good on form, but questionable in context. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

CHrisB

Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2003, 09:35:52 PM »
Yale #17 has a principal's nose feature, about 50 yards short of the green, but grassed in now if I'm not mistaken.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2003, 09:55:21 PM »
A really good Principal's Nose bunker is Gil Hanse's #15 Innisicrone. All that needs to happen with it now is to get a few trees out of the sides of the tee shot chute to give golfers more latitude to work the ball to deal with it--particularly right!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2003, 07:09:21 AM »
Patrick,

Here is a picture from Ran's write-up of the PN on Yale's 17th listed under "Courses By Country".

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2003, 08:46:29 PM »
Patrick-

You are correct that St. Louis CC has a Principal's Nose and is actually on #5 which is a short Par 5. It is in the center of the fairway about 80 yards shy of the green.

It offers the 4 options that TEPaul mentions and also has the Alps feature after the bunkering which protects this Punchbowl green.

The posting on St. Louis CC has a shot from the Nose.

A truly unique and enjoyable hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

les_claytor

Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2003, 10:05:49 PM »
One of the worst replicas of the famous bunker complex was built by Donald Steele within a thousand feet of the original on a new hole for the Eden.  It's a very poor copy, and why you would try it in such close proximity is beyond me.

The original is a wonderful hazard.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2003, 02:10:01 AM »
"Here is a picture from Ran's write-up of the PN on Yale's 17th listed under "Courses By Country"."

If the Principal at Yale's #17 gets a haircut this coming year do you think the barber will take one of those teeny little scissors (that barbers keep in the back of their drawers) and trim down the nose hairs a little bit that are growing out of the "Principal's Nose"? I think those nose hairs look nice--I think it makes the Principal look sort of old and wise--but someone is bound to think those nose hairs might look like the Principal is becoming a bit unsightly and maybe ought to practice better personal hygene.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2003, 07:52:52 AM »

Quote
The bunkers I'm thinking of are like the one on #6 at Chicago Golf Club, or #1 at Piping Rock. †They look like the Principal's Nose, but they are maybe 50 yards in front of the green, NOT in the landing area of the fairway.

I think there was one on St. Louis CC also, possibly the fourth hole?

There is no PN bunker on PRC #1. Tom, are you sure one existed on 6? it would seem that the snake like fairway wouldn't permit it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2003, 09:29:52 AM »
PN bunkers Macdonald/Raynor:

Macdonald: 8 and 11 at National

Macdonld & Raynor: 4TH at St Louis

Raynor: there was one on #1 Piping Rock - taken out and Dye/Doak wanted to put it on #10. and as stated, the club rejected the idea

Raynor: 17 Yale - probably the best because it fits so naturally into the area where it is located - take a look at that one from the right side of the fairway - it couldn't be better .......  one can only wonder what the  fate of that great one will be ....

The bunkers complex on 6-Chicago is called Spectacles - an even nicer one is on Creek's 15th. Spectacles has two bunkers while PN has three.

There were probably more but most are gone!

Sad how club just "don't get it"  when there are bunkers "in" the fairway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2003, 09:47:04 AM »
Patrick,
apparently I stand corrected, I had no idea that a PN once existed on PRC#1.

George,
I totally forgot about the one at the Creek. Has it always been there? In the rendering on the scorecard the fairway line does not extend around the bunker. Any clarification?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2003, 10:42:05 AM »
SPDB: that bunker complex at Creek-15 is along the right side of the fairway and I don't think it is mowed around the right side of the bunkering but it juts really far out in the fairway and is basically fairway on three sides - a great looking bunker.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2003, 11:59:53 AM »
George-

4th at St. Louis is St. Andrews with the Road Hole intent. 5th is Punch Bowl with Principal's Nose/Alps/Punchbowl design.

 "Sad how club just "don't get it"  when there are bunkers "in" the fairway."

I know you are generalizing here but as a point of reference, St. Louis is following Silva's Master Plan and has added a bunker in the center of the fairway on #11. This large bunker comes into play from the red member tees with driver and from the extended back tees would cause pause for the longest hitters.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2003, 12:13:16 PM »

Quote
SPDB: that bunker complex at Creek-15 is along the right side of the fairway and I don't think it is mowed around the right side of the bunkering but it juts really far out in the fairway and is basically fairway on three sides - a great looking bunker.

I just remembered that #1 at The Creek has a sort of PN as well.

I'm nearly 100% it is mowed on the right side. And really the bunker is closer to the center than it is to the right. The more I play that hole the more I realize how wonderfully strategic the hole is. The severe fall off in the fairway presents all sorts of options, which the principal's bunker enhances. In order to give yourself a view of the green (which is the toughest at The Creek, and one of the most confounding Raynor greens I've ever played) you have to play up the right side, as close to the fairway line as possible. Anything between the extreme edge of the right fairway edge and the bunker will likely be collected by said bunker. However if you wish to play it safe, but risk an awkward side hill lie, a potential shot from the rough, and no view of the diabolical green, hit it straight at the bunker and let the contour take it down the left away from the bunker.

I've always loved this hole and talked about it extensively. It's a brilliant short hole. one of Raynor's best.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2003, 09:22:09 PM »
Guys, where in that picture of Yale # 17 is the bunker part of the PN?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2003, 09:35:13 PM »
John - the guys are walking right at it - that thing with the hair-transplants on top - that's what's left!

I also stand corrected - the PN at St Louis is on the the 5th (par-5) a version of Alps. The bunker is located at the crest of the fairway just before it drops down to the sunken area where the green is now located (again) - it was covered long ago and was replaced by their super, Jack Litvay, a few years ago.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2003, 09:38:13 PM »
John - the guys are walking right at it - that thing with the hair-transplants on top - that's what's left!

I also stand corrected - the PN at St Louis is on the the 5th (par-5) a version of Alps. The bunker is located at the crest of the fairway just before it drops down to the sunken area where the green is now located (again) - it was covered long ago and was replaced by their super, Jack Litvay, a few years ago.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2003, 10:24:12 PM »
George, Please do not ban me for thinking Yale could have a Don King looking trap. lol
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2003, 09:56:10 AM »
George:  Your history on Piping Rock is not quite right.  There was a Principal's Nose on #1 -- past the landing area as Patrick says -- but I don't remember doing anything to it at all.  If it's gone, I don't think it was me or Pete Dye that removed it.  (It's been 17 1/2 years now.)

The Principal's Nose in the landing area on #10 was my idea, and it was there in the summer of 1986 on the approval of the project chairman, Woody Millen.  The tenth is a short par 5 with a wide landing area, and the idea was to put the bunker in a place where it was hard to carry and hard to squeeze it into the left side of the fairway (shorter to the green and a better angle past the right-hand greenside bunker).

What I didn't realize was that most of the members at Piping Rock welcomed the tenth hole as a "breather" after the tough stretch of 7-8-9.  My idea turned this into a tough hole, too, and they didn't like it, so the bunker was removed.

Alice Dye played the golf course in the summer of 1986 and told them Woody and I must have been drunk when we put that bunker in ... which was funny because at the time, I'd never taken a drink in my life.

I would love to hear George B.'s answer to Patrick's question.  I've never understood some of those Principal's Nose hazards myself.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2003, 09:07:49 PM »
Tom, what I said about the PN at Piping Rock was not  to imply that you and Pete removed it. I could have phrased it better I suppose.

I said, ďthere was one on #1 Piping Rock - taken out and Dye/Doak wanted to put it on #10. and as stated, the club rejected the idea.Ē ....not meaning you took it out but that the club had removed it over the years.

My take on the PN bunker complex used by Macdonald and Raynor (I donít think Banks ever used it anywhere)is that they used it in a different context or strategy than at TOCís 16th hole. There it was/is basically in the landing area as the key architectural feature to be played short of,
played over, or to either side of - each situation presenting a different problem to be solved - this
before the emergence of the new equipment. The right side only has about 15-yards between it and the railroad line. On the Old Course the PN bunker complex was originally located IN the prime landing area between the 170 and 190-yards off the tee-ball.

IMHO CB and SR used the PN feature in a totally different manner. It seems they were attempting to create a bit of a distraction, if not an annoyance to the player, on his approach to the double plateau green complex. This was mostly because of its height rather than the three sand hazards within. Their PN bunker complexes were usually placed about half way between the better golferís tee-ball landing area and the green - this usually 50 to 75 yards short of the green. I think it was also used by them as sort of eye-candy (it is a very attractive feature).
Ironically, when positioned in this manner, it was a major problem for the less skilled golfer (this was also often the case with their positioning of diagonal cross bunkering across a fairway in second shot landing areas).

There were a couple of exceptions that come to mind.

On original hole-6 (now hole-8) of the Fairyland Golf Club - now Lookout Mountain - it was about 250 yards off the tee on a hole that was originally 330-yards long. In the context of the 1920's, with firm ground, it was possibly reachable. It was dead on the centerline of play on the
original very wide fairway. Iím not sure where it would sit on that course considering the present fairway width and mowing patterns.

At Yeamans Hall there seems to have been a PN on the first hole just short of the entrance road that cut across the fairway. Here it was well off to the left of the center line - looks like it was at the left edge of the fairway. It seems to have been used more as a target bunker for the golferís tee-ball. If is was reestablished in that position today it would be in play off the tee.

I used this complex on a 285-yard par-4, positioning it so the front of the PN complex is 225-yards off the tee but it would take a 240-yard carry to clear it. There is a very narrow area to the left between it and the off-fairway underbrush and OB. The green is canted favorably accept a
shot from the narrow left from that area. From the wider area right of the complex the golfer has to clear a deep bunker greenside and a green is not the least bit appealing to play to. The smart golfer (hah) should lay up short of the bunker and pitch to the green but I was counting on his
ego, hoping to temp him to blow it over the bunker attempting to reach the green on his tee shot -
a driveable par-4 with a major hazard in the prime landing area. This offers four options on a 285-yard hole.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2003, 09:18:17 AM »
George,

Thanks.  A distraction or eye candy ... that's sort of what I'd thought.  Although the one on the first hole at Piping Rock may have had something to do with the bogey golfer's second shot lay-up area.

Yeamans Hall supposedly wants us to restore that PN on their first hole.  I thought it was on the green side of the entrance road ... I'll have to go back and look at the map.  I figured it for a "target bunker," and if so, it's one of the only target bunkers I've seen on a classic course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose bunkers
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2003, 09:36:50 AM »
Tom: the PN on Yeamans' first would better be placed on the green side of the road - it would be too much in play if on the tee side.

I've seen quite a number of cases where Banks began using  target bunkers. If any seem that way on a Raynor course, especially his earlier courses, I would think it would have been a coincidence rather than by design.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

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