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TEPaul

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2003, 05:40:44 PM »
Jeff Brauer:

That's quite a post. It's printable and studiable and I might be calling you. This all is obviously an area of golf course maintenance in transition--there seem to be so many technological solutions but obviously it always has to get back to human decision making and some kind of flexible application. It's what my super says, I guess, that there are plently of techniques available today for supers but they still have to stay on top of things bigtime and make the right call at the right time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2003, 05:51:16 PM »
Tom,

Feel free to call anytime, as I enjoy talking to you.  you could even call now, as I am at the office for a little while, until the Stars come on TV from the left coast.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

les_claytor

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2003, 06:01:02 PM »
Jeff,

That's me the ol' looper from SF (just in my grad school days).  I'm actually working in your back yard in McKinney, TX on a new TPC project w/ Weiskopf, and Fleetwood at the helm.  It's actually right down the street from your Westride and Ridgeview courses.  They like fun, but I've yet to find  time to even tee it up in TX yet.  Sad but true.

Talk about a tough place to grow grass!  Dallas is as bad as it gets with the heat and the salty brine from 3000 ft. deep.  Should be interesting to see how non-irrigated areas do here.  I know it's hard to convince Terry Little to "let it go brown."

I always tell people I know just enough about irrigation to be dangerous, but most all good supers I've gleaned info from over the years have always advocated maintaining grass lean and mean by keeping the heads dialed back to at least every other night if not more.  With the new programming, they really have the capabilities to control the frequency of watering.

From my observations, frequency of watering is a direct link to poa control.  If you turn back the water to twice a week with deep watering on the greens, the poa wilts.  Water every night, and the poa flourishes.  Hell in San Francisco, bent can almost go non-irrigated during the foggy season, but the poa will brown out in a matter of a couple weeks.

My snippet about leaky irrigation heads is a pet peeve I guess, but it seems like every course I build, 30 - 50% of the heads leak, or have bad solenoids, gaskets, etc., etc.  I can't understand why they can't produce more reliable sprinkler heads.  

HAS ANYONE HEARD OF THE NEXT WAVE OF IRRIGATION TECHNOLOGY: WIRELESS HEADS?  
I haven't been to the show in a couple of years, but I heard wireless is in the works!  Supposedly a significant savings in wire, but as for reliablity I don't know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2003, 06:10:31 PM »
Les,

Good to hear from you.  both Terry and the sand suppliers tipped me you were here.  

Terry is typical of irrigation designers, as he has heard the criticism of supers saying "I didn't have enough water"  Of course, in my scenario, and any running it close to the edge, it always involves more risk in losing it all, which I understand.

However, I have always felt that some risk was worth it.  Older courses eventually got grown in without all the big systems.  Yeah, wireless is coming.  I hadn't thought about it in terms of saving wire costs, but is should.  Add that to reduced pump stations in my book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2003, 06:44:55 PM »
Back to Mark's question, or I think what he is looking for -- and that is how to save $$$.

Wouldn't you all agree that the irrigation design is paramount? Think of it the same way people should think of golf architects -- it is the architect (designer) that can cost OR save a project $$$. Same is true of the irrigation designer, or "irrigation architect". If the approach is to use as little resources as possible (i.e., $$$) then the professional design consultant is your best source of figuring out how to work within the restraints.

So, I say the following: If you want to save costs on irrigation spend time with a well versed irrigation design specialist. Make sure they are familiar with the climate and region of the site. Bring them in early. Make sure to study power use, optimum time sof day to water, turf requirements, water quality, etc.

I also advise to avoid taking too much advice from the superintendent, irrigation equipment supplier, or irrigation manufacturer. Superintendents come and go and they are typically better team members to the process than "end all" advisors to the irrigation needs. Certainly they should be heard, but few are experienced enough to make final decisions about an entire system. I can no longer count on both hands the irrigation systems "designed" by superintendents who have now moved on -- and the new super dislikes virtually all that was done. Irrigation suppliers and manufacturers are in business to sell stuff. They have not much vested interest in seeing systems built that are minimal or creatively bare-bones. This, again, is not to say they cannot be good advisors -- but beware.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Larry_Rodgers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2003, 06:20:04 AM »
Wireless Sprinklers: yes they were introduced at the GCSAA conference a couple of years ago. At the present time their cost is about the same as the entire system without pumps. The list cost is around $999 with minimum discounts, for that type of money a very nice system can be installed with pipe, wire and trenching. and Thank-you Forrest for the support of professional designers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2003, 05:37:13 PM »
Larry, Forrest, Jeff
I agree that a qualified irrigation designer is the way to go. I've been involved with two projects, one a renovation, the other a new course, where I worked with an irrigation designer. Both times my role as a super was to try and learn what the designer had in mind in terms of the best way to utilize the system. I'm not sure that happens all the time as I'm sure there are supers out there who are caring for courses who have never even talked with the irrigation designer. Myself, I'd like to know the thinking that went into the design and how the designer thinks it should be used.

As far as all the bells and whistles, I'm not sure all the GPS, palm pilot, t-map, auto calculate, dah dah dah is worth the extra money. My favorite control system was the old OSMAC 4.0 with the dumb satellites. I had some spare controllers and I was never down for any extended time at all. Very easy to use and adjust. Give me good flow control, central control,  decent pump station with filtration, and  good in the ground design and I'm happy. I seriously doubt that most of the newer centrals are being used close to what they can do. The problem is, no one builds or sells a simple central anymore, and if they do, they're hardly cheaper then the ones with all the cool gadgets.

What's interesting to me is most of the bells and whistles are spec in by the designer. And what about the designers that build specs that only one brand can meet? Kind of eliminates the bidding process, which I doubt keeps the price down. Does any design a bare bones system anymore?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2003, 07:34:51 PM »
Don -- You'd be surprised how many quick-coupler centerline systems are still in use. As we discuss here a guy in Texas is likely out night watering and in the morning some hand watering will take place. Good? Depends on your fram of mind and what you can handle. I am not a fan of high-tech unless the project warrants it. Of course, there are times when an investment of several hunded thousand dollars is worth it -- but conditions have to be right. I suppose, for both ends of the spectrum.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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