[T_MacWood]

Willie Park worked exclusively in N.America between 1916 and 1923. During those years I don't believe there was a golf architect who was busier - garnering some significant commissions from some big name designers. As a two-time Open winner, beloved British golfing personality and world famous architect was he the biggest name in American golf design during that period?

How have his designs held up?

Olympia Fields is holding the Open, how much Park is left?

He was very proud of his Canadian work, what shape is it in?

Other than Maidstone, what are his best preserved courses in the NY-NJ-Conn Metro area?

[Craig Disher]

Tom,
This is a little out of the area you asked about but a course Park designed in Catonsville, just outside Baltimore is still intact. Rolling Road GC isn't widely known, probably due to its length and its high-profile neighbors. It's on a tiny tract of land but there's plenty of movement and I believe Park's routing is still in place. I'm playing the course in May and I hope to get some pictures. I'll post any of general interest.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tom MacWood,

How much of Maidstone is Park and how much is Tucker ?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom,
His notable Canadian courses include:

Mount Bruno
Royal Quebec
Ottawa Hunt
Calgary GC
Weston GC

Ottawa Hunt has been butchered, so that there is absolutely nothing left. A real travesty, because this was one of the great courses I played when I was younger.

I have never seen Royal Quebec. Reports are that it is generally very intact, I hope to have a look this summer.

Mount Bruno underwent restoration last year (by McBroom, who also did OH) and reports that the membership kept a close eye on the events, are reassuring. I have not seen it post renovation.

Cornish renovated Calgary GC (not 100% sure of that) and the results after leave something to be desired. Ponds seem to have been used; though I am not sure Park had ever used them. I have never seen information on what was there before, and it is credited as 1911, which is before Park did the other courses mentioned.

I hope Ian and Jeff chime in here, because I am sure Jeff knows the situation at Calgary. Ian would better know the situation at Weston.

[TEPaul]

Would Willie Park Jr. really be considered a constructing architect or just a designer?

I would certainly like to know much more about the evolution of Maidstone and who did what regarding what's there today. Some of the original holes of the old Maidstone are apparently amongst some of the residences to the left of the golf club's driveway.

[Willie_Dow]

Toms

Don't leave out New England!  Some of his greatest work is there.  For starters:  New Bedford Country Club (orig nine), Milton Hoosic Quissic (nine)

What else?

[T_MacWood]

Craig
Rolland Road is a course I am very interested in. Was it Baltimore CC or at least one of BCC's courses? He listed both BaltimoreCC and Rolland Road - was he redundant? What year was it constructed?

Pat
I don't think there is much Tucker remaining. From what I understand C.Wheaton Vaughan made radical changes to Tucker's simple course in 1915, a move that Willie and his brother John (the pro at Maidstone) approved of. Willie was quoted as saying "Good! It smells like golf". I'm not sure what Tucker's work smelled like. Willie and John then redesigned the course in 1922-23. What are some of Willie's best designs in NJ?

Ben
Willie was very high on Mt.Bruno - it might have been his best on the continent. What became of Beaconsfield?

Willie
I'm interested in all quarters. Milton Hoosic Quissic has to be one the all-time greatest names in golf if nothing else. What can you report on it and New Bedford?

[T_MacWood]

TE
I'm not sure what the difference is, but I would say Willie understood as well as anyone the importance of talented craftsmen. He brought Tom Winton with him form Scotland and he worked with other imported talents like Robert White.

[Willie_Dow]

TM

My notes on Willie Park are up north, but my memories of New Bedford are clear.  The routing of the original nine over ledges and steep slopes, requiring severe doglegs and many skillful approach angles, is fascinating.  Finesse seemed to be his gift to the game IMHO.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ron Forse has just been brought on board at Calgary, which is very good news. The course has been goofed around with over the years, on a few occasions, but it still shows some promise. It's not  great course, but there are a few neat holes. And I'm sure, if the club allows Ron to do his thing, there will undoubtedly be some major restorative-based improvements completed over the next few years. We'll see.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom,
He is not alone, I consider Mount Bruno one of the better Canadian courses. Therefore, I am anxious to see the renovation. It would seem its ranking at 77th on the Canadian list is owed more to its exclusivity, than its merit. The same goes for Beaconsfield, which fell off the list this year. I have never been to Beaconsfield, and have no idea what exists there.

JeffM,
Promising news regarding Calgary.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW;

Thanks for that info on Willie Park jr. I'm not sure exactly why but sometimes I think of him as much earlier than he actually was. By that I mean I forget that he worked into the 1920s, such as at Maidstone. I'd like to find out more of the detail about that course because it's one of my favorites; I'm real familiar with it and some of the holes are some of the best I've ever seen in that kind of setting.

[Dave_Miller]

Willie Park, Jr. also designed New Haven CC in Connecticut and Pawtucket CC in Rhode Island.  Pawtucket is what I consider a hidden gem.
Cheers,
Dave

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

There is almost no Willie Tucker left at Maidstone, as his original basic course was ultimately completely reconfigured as Tom MacWood describes.  

The design history of Maidstone is well-documented in David Goddard's, "The Maidstone Links", available at the club.  Why Tucker continues to be "co-attributed" with the present course by national publications seems to be a historical mystery, but it's clearly in error.    

[ian]

Jeff, I'm not as glad as you are that Ron is working with Calagary, we were there previously but did nothing with the club. Calgary is worth playing.

Here's my runthrough Willie's other Canadian work.

Ben, Beaconsfield. Outstanding routing of the back nine. The course takes incredible advantage of the limestone exscarpment for the whole back nine. Many tee shots from the top and the great backdrop on Gibralter. Front nine is average and there is a serious conditioning problem hurting the course. Water, soils, to many supers have tried and left; there is a unique problem that seems insurmountable. Those are Thompson bunkers, and not Willie's. Worth playing to see Gibralter alone.

Mt. Bruno. Great setting, wonderful greens and green sites on the open holes. It has some average areas and suffers from too many trees which ruin the origional look, still found on 17.
The course is not and would never be Willie's best, but historically is facinating, and the fun level is very high. There are many bouncing options not found on most of his other layouts. Plaease not Thompson redid the bunkers many many years ago. A must play, more Willie than others.

Laval-sur-le-lac (green) Layout is intact and the greens are mostly still intact. The bunkering is ongoing current renovation and this course needs a serious tree removal to be great. Worth playing, just don't blame Willie for the trees.
Herbert Strong did do half of the bunkering on the course, and it is excellent.

Illesmere (blue white) All 18 are there but some holes are split to fit in Watson's new nine. Best bunkering in Montreal. I still contend that Herbert Strong did the bunkering but the club has strong photographic evidence to the contrary. Too many trees again, but this is my favourite Park layout in Montreal. Very strong set of fours and fives. A must play

Weston. Solid golf course that is a great test of your game. The one thing that holds it back is that is gererally concidered to be plain. The bunkers have no faces and are very simple, the current plan is to keep the simple shapes and raise the faces for character. The layout has been altered a couple of times, but the first was Willie himself. I did the 10th (for the record). Worth playing.

Ottawa Hunt is simply a McBroom course, he redid it all so it has nothing to do with Willie. Royal Quebec is a club I have arrangements to see this year. I do work with many of these clubs.

[TEPaul]

MikeC & Tom MacW:

On Maidstone--I am sort of at a lose for who did what and when on the present course. Obviously it's a Park but who else worked on it? I talked to David Goddard briefly about it but I've never read his Maidstone history and to be honest I didn't even know he was the historian--I know he is at Shinnecock though. But I do remember talking to him about hole #2 as I said I thought that just had to be a Raynor green. I think he said he thought it was but he wasn't sure. Coore swears #17 green has to be a Maxwell and I think he even said the historian told him so too. What else do you know about Maidstone's architectural evolution MikeC?

[TEPaul]

"Laval-sur-le-lac (green) Layout is intact and the greens are mostly still intact. The bunkering is ongoing current renovation and this course needs a serious tree removal to be great. Worth playing, just don't blame Willie for the trees."

Ian:

I didn't know Laval was a Park design and I spent a couple of days playing matches up there aabout five years ago. I don't know what I was thinking because I believe I was into architecture then. That's a real fun course, neat looking old course with some pretty interesting holes. One green I remember was unbelievably treacherous maybe some parts of #18. Played another one up there, another year, in the same Lesley Cup matches. Beaconsfield, I think it was--also old and some interesting holes. Who designed that one (without me referring to C&W)?

[Dan Grossman]

One of my favorite courses in Toledo, OH is Sylvania CC, which is a Willie Park design.  It is wonderfully routed through a smallish tract of land with really neat greens.  WP, Jr used several streams to good effect.  There is even a longish blind par 3, I believe.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul;

Both Seth Raynor and Perry Maxwell were at Maidstone.

Raynor in 1916 and Maxwell in the mid-late 30s after the huge hurricane that damaged the course.

Some greens like #2 seem to be clearly Raynor's, as well as possibly the first green, but much of his work was inland and largely replaced by Park.  Some of his remaining work is still untouched on the 9 hole course.

Maxwell put forth a plan for MAJOR changes to the course, which was largely rejected by the club.  The 17th green is a mystery.  It's location as a green goes back to the earliest courses there around the late 1800's, but it's present configuration and contouring sure looks like Maxwell to me, as well.

Also, the islands of grass in some of the bunkers have been attributed to Maxwell's plan.  

Please feel free to ask any additional questions.  The book is pretty detailed, and somewhat difficult to summarize here.  

[T_MacWood]

Being a native son of Musselburgh Park was known for his contoured greens. 'The Parks of Musselburgh' describes a incident when Dick Wilson was hired to inspect Willie's Flint CC in the 1960's. Wilson had to walk across the 18th green to reach the clubhouse and remarked "A Willie Park course, huh?". Evidently one of Willie's trademark greens is described as a tipped platter with two fried eggs. Another trademark green was a copy of the famous 'Table' at Musselburgh, with a relatively narrow ledge at the back of the green.

Ian
I always thought Park's bunkering style was fairly simplistic, especially compared to Thompson or Strong, but some old photos of Royal Montreal look stylish.

Glen Ridge in NJ look to be a very interesting design, has it held up and how much of Park is remaining?

[bill_k]

Has anyone played Battle Creek CC in Battle Creek, MI? I am almost certain that it is a Willie Park Jr. design. If so, have some of the holes been altered? Several of the holes on the back nine feel a bit out of place with the rest of the routing. Nonetheless, it is a fun layout. Could someone go into a bit more detail concerning the characteristics of a "table" green? There are at least two greens at BRCC that might fit the broader definition. Thanks.

[T_MacWood]

Bill
Yes Battle Creek is a Park design, evidently William Newcome did some remodeling work but I'm not sure of the details.

The Table is a two tiered green with back portion of the green surface being a pronounced elevated (relatively narrow) ledge, often falling off behind the ledge. It was designed to promote a well judged running shot.

[ian]

I thought you would enjoy some images of Laval, Islesmere and Mount Bruno. Could not find Beaconsfield or Weston.

This is the second hole at Laval, 165 yard par three that used to have a clear view of the river till the road went in and squeezed the hole on the right

This is the par three 11th, 190 yards long to a sharply sloped 3000 square foot green. Bunkers are probably Herbert Strongs.
[
This is the second hole at Islesmere with one of the typical noses

Best bunkers I've seen in Montreal, this is the par 4 8th, a long par four to a rebuilt green (cooke?)

This is a close up of the left bunker, they insist and have photographic evidence of very elaborate bunkering that is definately Willie's. I have the plan somewhere at work.

This is the third hole at Mt. Bruno (all photos before McBroom's work). Short downhill par four.

This is the second shot on the 8th (I think). Half the trees are now gone thanks to the super.

This is the short and wonderful par three 10th, its about 170 yards and the bunkering is Stanley Thompsons. Of note, it used to be a clear view 500 feet down to the beautiful town in the valley.
This is the mid length downhill 17th to a very small tight green.

The final hole to a wonderful old fashioned rambling clubhouse. I seem to remember that it may not be heated in the winter. The 18th is a mid length four and the bunkering I thought was actually Thompson's again.


Of note: Paul Albanese is working with Battle Creek, and I hope he'll add to the discussion.

[T_MacWood]

Ian
Thank you for sharing your photos. Are the first two pictures Laval, the next three Islemere and the last five Mt.Bruno?  The bunkers attributed to Park in the 4th and 5th frame are not unlike what I've seen of old Royal Montreal.

[ian]

Yes that is correct. Do you have any photos from the old Royal Montreal?

Tom, Yes the 18th green is very steep at Laval.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()