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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« on: April 02, 2003, 11:30:42 AM »
Okay, the people at Golf Digest and their panelists are not idiots.  I know that.  However, a glance at their Best in State list shows the same type of movement Golfweek's Top 200 has.  But we (panelists) are idiots.  I know.  I've been told.

The two states I am most familiar with are Minnesota and Florida.  In the Gopher state, Minikahda has fallen from 6th to 20th!  Northland was 5th and now cannot be found.  Has Duluth seceded and been absorbed by Superior?  I haven't checked Wisconsin for it.

In Florida, John's Island rocketed from 19th to 10th while Naples National (9th to 16th), Medalist (10th to 19th), Lake Jovita (11th to 22nd), and El Diablo (12th to 27th) took dramatic drops.  (Note to reader: I know these movements aren't really all that big, but when it happens on a GOLFWEEK list we hear how alarming even small fluctuations are.)

Finally, my beloved Ocean Hammock only registers 25th in state - low enough to finish outside anyone's Top 200 list.  GOLFWEEK is not alone in the exclusion.  (Mainly directed at Matt who said "we" fumbled that one.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2003, 11:34:38 AM »
JC - you of all people, you who is so great at statistical analyis, it's very disappointing how much you're making of these shifts.  You know very well how little it takes for this kind of movement....

I'm wagging my finger like an old granny and saying shame on you.   ;)

One guy called you GW raters idiots.  Come on man, don't let it cloud your otherwise very rational thinking re all this.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Conley

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Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2003, 11:39:08 AM »

Quote
One guy called you GW raters idiots.  TH
Hucks:
We have a lot of people who take exception to the Modern list.  I suspect because we are forthright in ranking TWO hundred courses.  There is a HUGE difference between #100 in America and #100 since 1960.  There have been a lot more than one hanging the idiot label on me and my peers, although it sometimes falls under a different name.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2003, 11:44:21 AM »
OK JC, whatever you say.  I personally really liked the GW list and think you guys did a great job.

I also have no huge issues with anything on the GD list.

So fight the good fight, my friend.  It's just likely better for sanity to keep in mind that none of these lists are ever going to please everybody.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2003, 12:00:53 PM »
The state lists...are perplexing, to say the least.

Nice to see that Fenway was rewarded for their widely-applauded Gil Hanse renovation by moving from 16th to 24th on the NY list.

Two Gary Player designs are among the best courses in New Jersey...I wonder how many out there were aware of that!

Nothing like seeing great architecture rewarded.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SPDB

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Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2003, 12:01:57 PM »
JC - that's great news about Johns Island W. I know we've discussed it before, but I think the course is easily a better course than Black Diamond, and I would choose it over WW(PB).

The best news since the buzzer rang last night and my Hoyas had thoroughly trounced your Gofers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve_L.

Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2003, 01:14:46 PM »
I haven't seen the list - still under my rock...

I have to agree that Ocean Hammock (won't fight for the beloved status) is better than #25 in Florida...  It'd easily be in my top ten...


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rick Shefchik

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Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2003, 01:53:53 PM »
In the case of Northland (Donald Ross course in Duluth, Minn.), the drop is even more perplexing given that last summer Northland completed a refurbishing (hesitate to call it a restoration; the course hadn't changed much at all in the 40 years I've known it) that saw it in the best shape it has ever been in. New tees and new bunkers combine with the classic old country-club style greens (flat but tilted) to make Northland a must-play in Minnesota. Now it's not even on the list?

Perhaps the raters saw it two years ago when the renovations were not yet complete. Even so, that's a heavy price to pay for a terrific course spending a lot of money to become even better.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2003, 01:55:19 PM »
Nice to see Lehigh pop in at #7 in PA after never being on the list previously (top 25).

Why is Yale listed under the Top 100 public courses?  It's private.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2003, 03:10:04 PM »
John C:

Mea culpa sir, I guess ignorance is bliss on the issue of Ocean Hammock. How GD "blew it big time" with Ocean Hammock is incomprehensible. The course is minimum top ten and I believe a solid argument can be made that the design has the fiber for a possible top five inclusion in the Sunshine State.

When we talk about states with which we are familiar I have to ask how Atlantic City Country Club finished 5th in the Garden State? Yes, I don't doubt the course has done marvelous things since new ownership and the restoration work of Tom Doak is to be commended -- but no way top five in NJ -- especially when you see such a distinguished and worthy layout like Hollywood finish out of the top ten, to name just one example!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JSlonis

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Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2003, 03:23:34 PM »
I definitely agree with Matt...how Hollywood is out of the top ten in NJ is beyond me.  Also how in the world could anyone rank Olde York ahead of Ridgewood?  Any rater that would do that should be expelled from their rating job for life. Ridgewood dropped from 5th to 14th in the NJ list...how?

For Olde York and Running Deer to even be on the list for NJ is surprising to me.  Has no one played or heard of Hidden Creek?  It is not on the list for NJ.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Georgia
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2003, 03:25:07 PM »
I am pretty familiar with many of the courses ranked within Georgia.  I think the rankings make a lot more sense than they did previously.

1. Augusta National (#2 in U.S.)

Obviously, this is the most superior course in the state.

2. Peachtree G.C. (#51 in U.S.)
3. East Lake G.C. (#74 in U.S.)

Excellent golf courses.  I'm sure both have benefited from their association with Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.  The resurrection of East Lake and its surrounding neighborhood is one of the greatest accomplishments in many years.

4. Atlanta C.C. (#86 in U.S.)

Often confused with Atlanta Athletic Club; but, a far superior course.  (I am exceptionally biased as a club member at ACC.)  Recent green complex redesigns by Michael Riley have reestablished this club's reputation.  As host of the first Players Championship, the club no doubt earned some tradition points--remarkable for a club opened in 1964.

5. Ocean Forest G.C. (#96 in U.S.)

Excellent, and exclusive, golf course.  Hosted Walker Cup a few years back.  Intolerable heat during summer peak.  A little tight at times.  (And I hate opening the round with a 4-iron off the first tee.)

6. Hawks Ridge

Never played it.

7. Sea Island G.C. (Seaside Course)

Former Colt & Alison design (nine holes), resurrected by Tom Fazio.  I actually prefer this to Ocean Forest.

8. Atlanta Athletic Club

I guess it helps to have hosted a U.S. Open and a couple PGA Championships.  Frankly, I wonder where this club would be ranked without its association with Bobby Jones.  It's an enormous facility.  I've been meaning to visit the Bobby Jones Room.

9. G.C. at Cuscowilla

I am embarassed that I haven't played this course yet.  I've admired it "on paper."  I will play this before the year is out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Speaking of states
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2003, 03:57:31 PM »
Ranking - State - Number of Top 100 Courses

1. New York (10)
2. California (9)
3. Ohio (8)
4. Illinois (7)
T5. Georgia, Florida, South Carolina (5)

These seven states possess 49 of the top 100 courses!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2003, 04:05:49 PM »
Carlyle:

The day that Georgia, Florida and South Carolina can have more courses in a top 100 than NJ is beyond words.

NJ did claim the following:

PV
Baltusrol / Lower
Somerset Hills
Plainfield

I can easily make the case that Galloway National, Hollywood and Ridgewood (East & West) from the Garden State are no less in quality than a number of those that made it from the Peach, Sunshine and Palmetto states.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Carlyle Rood

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Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2003, 05:26:34 PM »
Of course Georgia, South Carolina, and Florida have more ranked courses.  You're talking about a region where the climate permits year-round golf.

At least for the Georgia rankings, you have the #2, #51, #74, #86, and #96.  I presume the preponderance of the ranked South Carolina and Florida courses are second-fifty ranked too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Racing up and down the list - GD Best in State
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2003, 06:35:29 PM »
In NJ, I've yet to play Olde York (the Gary Player design somehow doesn't quite beckon), but I have played the TPC at Jasna Polana with a couple of the other fellows who frequent here.

It was one of the most enjoyable times I've had on a golf course, simply because we spent a good part of the day laughing in stitches at some of the silliness of the architecture.  

Let's put it this way; Jasna Polana has the most well guarded, blind chipping areas I've ever seen.   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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