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Forrest Richardson

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Re: Nix Rakes & Other Suggestions
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2003, 03:11:19 PM »
Don't you think caddies and players would simply work out hand signals or some other form of communication with such a rule?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nix Rakes & Other Suggestions
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2003, 05:25:22 PM »
Forrest,
Not if it were a rule of golf or a rule of the competition.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nix Rakes & Other Suggestions
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2003, 05:43:35 PM »
Forrest,
I'll play.
Do away with the fringes.
Mow elevated greens just over the edge of their pads.
Mow the greens in continuous wavy or "S" patterns inside their clean up cuts.
Mow the approaches to same height as the greens.
Let the fairways grow 1/4" taller than usual.
Add more or loosen up the existing sand in greenside bunkers.
Bring it all back to normal on Monday.  :)
 


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nix Rakes & Other Suggestions
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2003, 09:19:25 PM »
10 Doable ideas:

1.  No clubs with lofts greater than 50 degrees

2.  Take the "roll and hop out" of the current fairway maintenance standards through changes in height, mowing frequency, water timing (water as close to open as possible), and increase aerification frequency; this would add, at minimum, a full club to every approach shot easily and if you do the next maybe two or three clubs to each approach

3.  Take as much of the "hold" out of the green complex as possible, 3 reasons:
  a. we'd all be forced to play the softest ball we can find to hold the greens- smash ball would be gone
  b. maintenance and new construction costs would drop, as we wouldn't need as many bunkers to protect the green complex
  c.  the rub of the green would be back as we'd be forced to play on the ground to control roll, rather than the artillery golf we're playing today

4.  Bring back the grain!  Add 1/8 to 3/16 to all green heights so the turf just starts to lean a bit

5.  no more yardage books or course markings - obligatory

6.  all sand / bunker material must come from within 20 miles of the sight, cleaned and ground materials strictly prohibited, organic natural bunker material only - I bet it won't cost $50 a ton and the ball certainly wouldn't be sitting up on the rounded material like it does the angular boutique / vanity sand we use today

7.  seeding pattern based on two-row head pattern only, alternate routes can be facilitated by single row, and mow lines follow the water pattern

8.  rough heights maintained at 1 3/4 to 2 1/4 inches, for fescues, given the new green approach let's increase the chance of the flyer

9.  standard putters only, bye-bye belly and broomstick!

10.  1 cocktail every 2 holes, if one through nine get done we'd need 'em!

goodluck!

JT
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jim Thompson

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nix Rakes & Other Suggestions
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2003, 10:46:04 PM »
Jim T. -- #10 is a winner!

Re: #6: ...all sand / bunker material must come from within 20 miles of the sight, cleaned and ground materials strictly prohibited, organic natural bunker material only - I bet it won't cost $50 a ton and the ball certainly wouldn't be sitting up on the rounded material like it does the angular boutique / vanity sand we use today

I'll bet is doesn't cost $10 per ton. Don't know where your from but USGA sand here in Arizona is generally not more than $25. Of course, to have the appropriate blessings it runs slighgtly more.

We once used crushed lava for a course in far eastern Arizona -- worked great. A large cinder cone mountain was just a few miles away. Very cheap and indigenous.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nix Rakes & Other Suggestions
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2003, 06:38:27 PM »
Forrest,

I'm told by upper tier Supers and Architects here in Michigan that to be considered a truly great course primo sand, such as Signature, 535 or a 50/50 mix thereof, is a must.  Said material is to procured primarily from a pit in the Cleveland Ohio area, barged across lake Erie to Detroit, then either trained or trucked to your site at significant cost.  Current Signature quote is $42 a ton, by the time its in the bunker that's $50 easy.

We have #8 mortar sand and native "silted and dirty" material in abundance at $2 to $6 a yard.  Should/is angularity. ball stand, and whiteness held at such a premium?

BTW, if you can keep up with number ten, you can play in my foursome anytime!  Just let me know when your in the area.

Regards,

JT
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jim Thompson

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nix Rakes & Other Suggestions
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2003, 07:00:21 PM »
Jim -- I believe all my speeding tickets have been mothballed, so I'm headed to MI sometime in the next few years. certainly to play Whistling Straits -- or is that WI? Well, same basic area. Thanks for the reply.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nix Rakes & Other Suggestions
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2003, 07:14:48 AM »
It is interesting to me that no one has really tackled the idea of changing strokes incurred along the lines of Geo. Thomas' ideas on Arbitrary Values.

For example, what if the use of wood clubs (non-irons) might count as 1.5 strokes whenever used? And/or putts just .5 stroke?

Also, that there hasn't been discussion about changing from "traditional" stroke play to other formats or, even new formats entirely. Taking from casual tournaments, why couldn't the tours take scoring averages on a course on a Thursday and then begin using that data to change the nature of the scoring on Friday and Saturday and, finally, Sunday?

Example: On Thursday the six most difficult holes via stroke play are 2, 3, 7, 15, 17 and 18. So, on Friday these holes are worth more weight -- perhaps they count twice against a players total. And this might be continued in some fashion. Why? To change the landscape of golf scoring and attack -- which is one goal that seems desireable on the big tours.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nix Rakes & Other Suggestions
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2003, 10:57:25 AM »
Ok Forrest,

If we can truly change the game, I would like to propose the following:

Each hole should be constructed with a minimum of five sets of tees (A, the shortest tee thru E, the longest.)  Using a tip player as the example, golf would be a game where a player would choose at his own discretion to play 6 holes from the C tees, six holes from the D tees, and six from the E tees depending on windage, pin placement, and his game.  The player would thereby choose 6 par threes, 6 fours, six fives.

Strategy would instantly be re-injected into the game even on execution courses.

What do you think?

With regard to number 10 in my previous post, I feel compelled to share a tale of what has become an infamous round in my group...  Annually 48-56 of us go on a three-day 45 holes a day golf excursion here in Michigan.  At the beginning of a dismal and sure to be rain soaked round on the Ross Memorial Course at Boyne Highlands, one in our group suggested that we play the "real" scotch game.  In addition to all the betting in the typical scotch game the bartender in our group pulled out a bottle of Dewer's and at every water cooler on the course we stopped and had a Dewer's and water in those little conical cups.  None of us standing on the first tee knew that at the Ross there is a cooler on almost every hole.  We all broke 80 that day and the "scotch" game ended with a spread of only 4 points, the most painless pay out in the history of our game $2.  I think it was a great round, ironically the card is the best memory, its covered in betting action and all any of us know is that we had a lot of "line drives in the box score".

JT
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jim Thompson

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nix Rakes & Other Suggestions
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2003, 01:25:58 PM »
Jim -- That is an interesting thought. In fact, both the idea and the Scotch story are interesting!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nix Rakes & Other Suggestions
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2003, 08:01:37 PM »
Forrest,

I suppose there are temporal and permanent obstacles.

An example of the latter; abolish riding carts= no cart path extra yardage, no free drops, stamina required, no gps.

Limit the # of wedges a player can carry and return it to a feel short game.

Keep the bunker surrounds long and shaggy.

Return to the old rules that don't allow marking balls on greens

Ward
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

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