[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Is it out?

Anyone seen anything on the results from Golf Digest on their newest list of America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses?  

I heard that it is supposed to be out in the next issue, and I heard through a friend in the media in OH that Avalon Lakes supposedly has made quite a showing.  Pete Dye came in a few years ago, and did some touch up work on the course. Apparently it was quite well received if it has taken a big leap into the 100 Greatest as I hear it might have.

Anyone hear any other information about courses that might have made the list?  I wonder if anyone with more computer knowledge than I can find the information out there in the electronic world.  If this information that my freind told me is true, obviously someone is starting to get information out.  I am sure with the golf connections and knowledge we have here we can find this information.

LATER EDIT:
Here is the link now that it is officially on GD's website:
http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/americasgreatest/index.ssf?/courses/americasgreatest/gd200305100greatest.html

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Oops, I guess there was already some talk of some of the advance information leaking out under the Pine Valley thread here also.  I did not know that when I started this.  I guess like the guy on the Mr. Obvious Show, "I never made the connection."  Either that thread title is not descriptive enough or I am just too dense to make the connection.  Probably most likely the latter.  I had seen the Pine Valley thread today, but didnt take the time to read it, then after I posted this one I thought "hey that could have something to do with the ratings as well."

[Pete_Kilhern]

Turbo:  I agree with you.  Golf Digest's 2003 top-100 rankings have many surprises.  On balance, I think that Golf Digest's rankings are better than Golf's.  The Golfweek panelists are idiots.  Barona Creek in the top 100?  Crazy.

[Pete_Kilhern]

Turboe - You can get the ratings on a website posted by a golf enthusiast.  I don't know how he obtained the ratings in advance, but he posted them.

[Mike_Cirba]

Pete Kilhern;

As a Golfweek rater, I'll take your comments under advisement.

Glad to hear you favor a publication where a course is deemed the greatest in the world and then two years later, is suddenly 5th without any reasoning offered.  

It's such a bitch when you don't get to host the US Open every year, don't you think?  You'd think that all important "bounce" would last longer than 18 months!  Sheesh...bummer.....

Glad to see that course architecture is considered in some categories, as well.  

[Pete_Kilhern]

Mike Cirba - The differences among the top five courses are nominal.  We can expect the courses to move around in the top five from year to year.  

Golfweek's ratings, especially the modern courses ratings, have so many mediocre courses listed that I don't think there are enough raters to lead to balanced ratings.  Or the raters are too enthusiastic since they have not seen many courses.

Examples of overrated courses include Kinloch, Eugene, Mayacama, Bear's Club, Gallery and Barona Creek.

[Pete_Kilhern]

Mike Cirba - Since you appreciate Yale, you can safely assume that my complaints about Golfweek do not apply to you.

[Mike_Cirba]

Pete;

Since you love Yale, and particularly the 10th, I'm sure we'd agree on a lot.

Tell me that you love the 18th, and we might be twins separated at birth.  

[David Wigler]

Pete,

What is the link to the website you reference where the advanced copy of GD's rankings are posted?

[GeoffreyC]

Pete Kilhern-  I too am a golfweek panelist who takes some offense to your blanket statement.  I'm also a MEMBER at Yale with a great love of and appreciation for the architecture of the course. How's that?  

By the way- what do you think of the work being done to the Yale course over the past few years?

[THuckaby2]

Hey guys - how about we wait till these come out FOR REAL before we start ripping each other?  So many rumors, so little fact...

It won't be long.

TH
Golf Digest Rater and unabashed lover of the 18th at Yale, as well as all the rest of that fantastically fun golf course

[David Wigler]

This is more fun Huckaby and BTW congratulations on your little rating service placing 5 Art Hills courses in the top 100?  Is every GD panelist on drugs?  

[THuckaby2]

DW - you know how I love Art Hills, hey the only course I've ever played of his is HMB-Ocean!

I've just heard about 15 different versions of the GD list now from "reliable sources".  This might be fun, but it'll be more fun when it's actually in print!

As for the relative worth of these lists, not to be a fun-killer, but one ought to keep in mind the VERY different criteria used.  I know you and I can do that and give each other shit without killing each other, Dave... I just don't trust the real world!  

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

Pete,

Slamming the GW panelists is pretty much slamming what seems to be half of all the GCA posters.  There are a lot of them here, perhaps 30 or so.  Far fewer GD panelists and one lonely GM panelist.

[John_Conley]

Mike Cirba - The differences among the top five courses are nominal.  

Golfweek's ratings, especially the modern courses ratings, have so many mediocre courses listed that I don't think there are enough raters to lead to balanced ratings.  Or the raters are too enthusiastic since they have not seen many courses.

Examples of overrated courses include Kinloch, Eugene, Mayacama, Bear's Club, Gallery and Barona Creek.

Kinloch - 10
Eugene - 33
Mayacama - 29
Bear's Club - 47
Gallery - 80
Barona Creek - 94

Most of the courses you mention are new.  As has been discussed about a hundred times, the consideration of new courses is a challenge to any such list.  You will have enough "visits" over time, but how many is enough.  GOLFWEEK makes the decision to include courses after 10 visits.  Golf Digest waits two years, although their "Tradition" category penalizes courses like Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes for a good while.

The Modern rankings have been a lightning rod for their inclusion of so many "mediocre" courses.  Remember, a Top 100 list has 100 courses.  It isn't like there is a bevy of courses worthy of supplanting all the ones you mention that lie outside the Top 100 entirely.

You say the difference between the Top 5 is nominal.  Are you aware that the difference between 65 and 125 is also nominal?  Two of the courses you mention are in the bottom 20 and close to falling off the list.

- One of the idiots.

(P.S.  Who the hell are you?  You make a whopping 7 posts on GCA.com and already know I'm an idiot.  Also the other 225 or so of my peers.)

[THuckaby2]

JC - rest easy, I'm sure when the GD list is finally published we'll all be called much worse than idiots.  Brad Klein said it best:  these lists don't make anyone happy.

TH

ps - of the ones he calls overrated, I've only played Mayacama and Barona Creek and I believe GW got those right on.

[ForkaB]

Huckster

Did your votes count this year?  If so I think that this list and all future ones should carry an asterix and/or health warning.  (Insert emoticon of your choice here).

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I am about half tempted to start another thread when someone here actually has the results in hand.  I was merely asking a question about if anyone had seen them, and I do not like the tone that this thread has taken on already.  As TH says this thread was destined to become testy because of the nature of the ratings game, I just cant believe it turned angry this quickly and without anything to even debate yet.

Also, I cannont remember back that far for me, but I have a question for Ran.  How many posts does it take to get your second star?  I think we are guilty of too lenient of promotion schedule in our early formative posts.  I think we are using that PC mindset to make sure that everyone has a warm fuzzy feeling when they first start out.  You know how that new age grading thing works, "we want to make sure everyone feels good about themselves so we prop them up artificially."   Nothing directed towards any particular person or your posts, but I am just asking because if 7 posts already gives you your second star rank, I just wonder what the rank with one star even means?

Just some random thoughts.

ps The ratings might be out officially now.  I heard from my friend that he has the magazine in his hands now.  I have not talked to him directly so I do not know if he got it off the news stand, or if he got an advanced copy because he is in the sports media business.

[Michael Dugger]

turboe

It's not just this thread that becomes testy, it is all threads.

[Mike Leveille]

The list is now on GD's website.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Here it is:

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/americasgreatest/index.ssf?/courses/americasgreatest/gd200305100greatest.html

I might also go back and edit my first post so that it is also there for ease of finding on this thread.

[Mike_Cirba]

Interesting that they also now publish a list of the "Top 100" Public courses.

Interesting, as well, that neither Wild Horse nor Rustic Canyon made that list.  Oh well, guess they needed that room to make sure that King's North at Myrtle Beach National had a much-deserved spot.    

After all, 43 bunkers on one hole, and both an island fairway and island green deserves some type of award, I'd think.  

[Matt_Ward]

For those who may not have seen the posting on GD's Website here's a few interesting things to ponder:

Who's In This Time ...

Pacific Dunes #47 *Should have been higher?
The Dunes Beach and Golf Club #78 *A good return!
Pine Tree #81
Atlanta CC #86
Old Warson #90 *Really?
Ocean Forest #96
Rich Harvest Links #99

Who's Out ...

Atlantic (NY) *So much for all the lobbying of panelists!
Sand Ridge (OH)
Valley Club of Montecito (CA) *Say it ain't so!
World Woods / Pine Barrens (FL)
Crosswater (OR)
Sanctuary (OH)
Wilmington / South (DE)

It appears the biggest jump from clubs already in the top 100 appears to be Aronimink -- moves up 46 places to #52. Congrats to the club and to Ron Prichard's restoration work.

On the flip side the Prince goes down to #73.

Someone will have to help me out with this but how does Old Warson and Bellerive continue to be top 100 courses? Ditto Greenville CC?

A few other interesting notes:

How does The Golf Club (likely one of the 2-3 finest Pete Dye courses) only merit a rating of #57. It's a top 50 finisher without doubt.

Speaking of Dye -- it seems Shadow Creek has now become the Nasdaq Tech stock as it drops to #48 -- my, oh my, doesn't it seem like yesterday when the course actually made the top ten?

Couple of other points -- Crystal Downs is now #23. National Golf Links is #19 -- Shinnecock Hills is only #6!

Can someone explain how Plainfield (#45) finishes behind NY / NJ metro courses such as Quaker Ridge (#20), Baltusrol / Lower (#22), WF / East (#32) and Somerset Hills (#41)? On the flip side -- thank heavens that Maidstone is no longer in the top 50 but it still finished ahead of The Golf Club -- OK?

It would be really interesting if GD would expand its listing to a top 200 because clearly it would help to know what courses are making some "noise" and may challenge for a future position. Of course, one can glean certain developments from the state ratings although the state listing for NJ was truly out there in deep left field with some of the choices.

[Matt_Ward]

For those who may not realize this but GD also listed for the first time a top 100 public listing -- get this -- neither Wild Horse, Rustic Canyon or Barona Creek made the listing.

In fact, Quarry Oaks in Nebraska made the listing at #95!

Kemper Lakes and Pine Meadow finished at #27 and #28. Really?

Tullymore in MI finished at #25. Really?

I-N-T-E-R-E-S-T-I-N-G !!!

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Ahh my mind is put at ease.  I now see the new list of 100 Greatest Public courses is listed also.

I was actually a little worried in that my friend who called me told me that Avalon Lakes in his area there was #44 on the 100 Greatest List.  I was floored when I thought that it might be at #44 on the REAL 100 Greatest.  I enjoy Avalon Lakes, but #44 on the Actual 100 Greatest would have been a mind blower.

I can see it there on the Public list.

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