News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Redan" at The Country Club at Brookline
« on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
What happened here?  The original postings have been cropped.We were trying to establish whether the original par 3, be it #12 or #10, as described by H.W. Wind in his "Shots Heard Round the World" in the book "The Story of American Golf": Wind wrote: "the Redan-type green of the 140 yard tenth" in the match between Ray, Vardon and Ouimet.I asked if this could be a hangover from the changes to the original routing?  I think Ed Baker suggested that Cornish made changes in the late 50's or 60's, but it is still an open question.

Patrick_Mucci

TEE Reconstruction
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Mike Young,I first used Laserturf in 1991 at my club in Florida when we restored/redid the entire golf course, with very favorable results, despite a very rainy summer which caused a great number of problems.  The fellows name was Ian something.  I believe we were one of the first to ever use Laserturf and I have recommended them to several people.At issue is cost, especially on those tees where the additions are minimal.By,You're correct, lasering is about a mounted laser device which adjusts the pan as the machine traverses the tee.  I was one of the first to embrace the technique in 1990-1991.I seem to recall that the method may have come from Australia, but I could be wrong.We're going to use washed sod.The project must start immediately if we are to have the tees playable by Memorial Day.If we had more time and started earlier, we would have seeded.TEPaul,I've been a member for fifty one (51) years.The golf course remains wonderful, despite the scars of every green chairman and president, with and without a consulting architect, but it's trending worse, when it should be trending better, architectually.The club has certainly gone through transformations over 51 years.The club has a strange dynamic, and almost every member feels they are more important than the club, that their needs are more important than the club's needs.The real dilema is that the club has embarked upon three projects for which the members are being assessed.Now get this, this years dues were set, assuming a 64,000 budget loss (read addtional assessment) but as of the September board meeting the operating loss is$ 128,000.  We have a capital reserve fund which I feel, along with the club treasurer and 1st vice president feel shouldn't be touched.  Others want to spend any dollars they can find.  We believe in pay as you go only, not compromising the clubs future.In order to do some tees this year, at a cost of $ 49,000 the club will have to dip in to the reserve fund, (read controversial)So what do you do ?  Sit on the sidelines and do nothing, complain, or be actively involved in trying to make things better ?P.S.  Because the long range planning chairman wasted $ 25,000 on a RADICAL golf course master plan, the treasurer won't release or approve funds to hire an architect for the tee project or any other project, which is absurd.  I have tried to convince him that failure to hire an architect will end up costing the club far more than another $ 25,000.When people post about how a club alters their course, or how things get done, unless you've been witness to a variety of these projects, you really can't believe prudent people make the decisions that result in a diminishment of the architectual values and design integrity of the course.  IF I DIDN'T SEE IT MYSELF, I WOULDN'T BELIEVE IT.

Patrick_Mucci

Importance of Tweaking New Courses by the Oringinal Archie
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Brad,I would agree, but remember, even architects evolve.They change, and you have to be careful that the updated opinion you're getting ten (10) years later, reflects the architects original thinking, not his current thinking.

TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Applebrook G.C., par 71, 6825yds, 6285yds.Hole #1:Par 5, 540yds (all ydges from back).The tee boxes are tucked back into a bit of a chute that feels a bit restricting on the right with the boundary of the range along the left side playing as OB. The fairway is extremely wide and devoid of architectural features. A rise across the fairway out about 250yds is the only real strategy on the drive to give yourself a bit more height and visibility and distance to deal with the strategies of the second shot. The drive is a good "get into the round" opener as the fairway is extremely accomodating to the tee shot which happens to be the theme of many of the holes of Applebrook (an unusual theme and an interesting and gutsy one on Hanse's part--since huge accomodating fairways can be easily misunderstood in this day and age!). The second shot strategy is basic but excellent. A really good half cross bunker eats well into the fairway from the left and a bit diagonally and requires a good second shot over it to position yourself properly for the correct entry to the green which has a left to right orientation and cant and a very good left/right shoulder coming in off the left greenside bunker and carrying through the green surface as a low side to side center ridge. The approach to the green is accomodating from the left and allows for a run-in shot option using the gradual left/right slope of the approach and green surround. The green is large in length and width. The safer play second shot is to the right fairway area short, along side or past the half cross bunker but leaves a more difficult shot into the green with a drop-off covering about half the green entrance from that angle. Of course golfers have to be careful on the green-end of this hole as an enormous irrigation pond is to the right of this hole down a steep bank.Hole #2:Par 4, 380yds.A left to right elbow hole around an enormous an impressive bunker set into a substantial rise at the elbow of the hole and the tee shot landing zone. Strategic considerations on this tee shot are in the top 2-3 most important and meaningful on the golf course! One obvious strategic consideration is to carry the big bunker thereby considerably shortening the hole. A safer strategy is to hit the ball down the fairway coming as near to the big bunker as possible. This safer option also very much has to consider the length of the drive since Gil has cleverly run the top of the rise out across the fairway at about the same distance from the tee as the carry over the big bunker. This rise very much gives this option an "anti-turbo boost" area where a less than satisfactory drive distance-wise will get killed by the rise across the fairway. Safer still is to play the tee shot farther left and wider off the bunker and short of the top of the rise. This will leave a longer and blind approach to the green though! Rodney Hine created a revetted bunker straight through the fairway's center line that gives a shadowy appearance from the tee. If you reach the top of the rise it's a short iron into an interesting green shape and orientation which appears and is slightly perched up with a large swale chipping area front and right and a back left side of the green that can come up quickly on the golfer. Even with a short approach this green has quite a lot of approach interest to it. The chipping area across the rear of this green melds seamlessly into #3's tee space!Hole #3:Par 4, 300yds.This is a terrific and unique little left to right delayed dogleg or elbow hole that is driveable as one of many interesting options. #3 is the hole on the course that almost any golfer will seriously consider a number of club selections (for distance) and a number of options for line of play! The green is hidden behind a large right ridge that L's out by the green with a large bunker and wasty area to carry and about a 25yd downsloping run-in area to a longish side to side but relatively shallow green from this angle. Only the top of the flag is visible from the tee. The other basic option is to play down the fairway well to the left of the green but this option is brilliantly complicated by a center pot bunker out about 200yd in the middle of the fairway. This small bunker creates perfect and complete "line of charm" options for the safer (nondriveable option). The golfer can choose from the four options of laying up in front of the pot bunker for a longer but blind approach or playing to the right of the pot for a shorter but still blind approach or to the left of the pot for a longer approach but one that opens up the green a bit more. Or finally the option of playing over the pot and opening up the visibility and coming into the green for a length-wise approach. This green has excellent green space with a great back right pin position mini-bowl and a narrowish front pin position too. Applebrook's #3 is almost as interesting as Inniscrone's excellent driveable #3, which is probably the overall player favorite at Inniscrone. They are very different from each other and Applebrook's will probably not be as popular as Inniscrone's owing to it's blind characteristics. But both of these holes are some of the best driveable new par 4s anywhere!Hole#4:Par 4, 415yds.#4 returns to Gil's basic theme of enormous unencumbered tee shot landing area. There are no fairway bunkers on this hole and the fairway is app. 50yds wide with playable rough on its outside. The wide fairway ends at app. 310 out and drops off to a small lower fairway with a "HaHA" that creates a seamless look from the tee. The "HaHa" also hides a maintenance road almost entirely! This green-end is fairly "unfeatured" with only a bunker front left. The interest of this green-end is the shape and internal contours of the green. There is also and interesting rolling rise that covers the front right half of the green approach obviously complicating a run-in shot or even and aerial shot. A run-in shot could be used by slotting the ball between the left greenside bunker and the rolling rise on the right front. The green is a bit of a "greens within a green" effect and is most of the interest of hole #4.Hole #5:Par 3, 195This par 3 plays to a semi-blind green surface a bit uphill and is all carry to the green front probably mostly into a prevailing wind. This hole will play in almost all conditions longer than the card yardage. The green surface is longish with some interest on either side vis-a-vis where one should miss the ball or the green. There's an unusual little detached fairway patch to the front right and slightly below the green surface which might be considered a "lady's aid".Hole #6Par 4, 410yds.#6 plays to another very wide and mostly unencumbered fairway that rises slightly from tee to LZ. As I understand it this green and green-end was the brainchild of Bill Kittleman and one that was making him nervous as to how it might be perceived or received. I don't know how it's being received but architecturally and strategically I think the green-end is really good and very unique to look at and also to play! Basically the tee shot strategy must be to get a drive out as far as possible to open up the green-end and particularly the left side of the green area to visibility as much as possible. The green surface itself is really not visible but is demarked well (at least the right side is) by an unusual chipping area upslope covering the front of the green that's particularly steep at the right front of the green. From the approach area the green is perched up and a bit above the player and has a bit of a "skyline" look to it. But the most interesting aspect to the hole is the substantial ridge short and left of the green that makes the entire approach appear to play through a real "cut" and one that hides the entire left side of the green from the approach. An approach short will come back down the upslope chipping area all across the front of the green and an area that has many options for recovery back up to the green. The green surface is quite interesting in shape with a very good right front section. The chipping area which surrounds the entire front and left of the green again melds seamlessly into #7's tee area as did #2 and #3.I'll submit the first six holes so as not to lose the post and I'll do the rest later.

TEPaul

"Redan" at The Country Club at Brookline
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
WillieD:Noone knows what happened a few days ago--not even Ran, but a bunch of posts on a bunch of topics got lost and deleted. Although I don't know who was responsible, I'm inclined to add it onto the whole laundry list of reasons we ought to get Osama--and the sooner the better!

TEPaul

Architecture
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
TommyN:The Donald ain't all bad although he clearly has a lot to learn about golf course design and fundamental taste concerning golf. But you would have been proud of him for a New York City project he took over maybe ten or more years ago concerning something in and around Central Park. The city and the project was completely bogged down in red-tape, union issues, cost overruns and huge time delays. The Donald went to the Mayor and said "F... that, I'll do the project for you way under your budget and bring it in way short of the time limit. And so he did!

TEPaul

Architecture
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Maybe I should say you'd be proud of the Donald for his initiative on that NYC project but as a contractor you probably wouldn't have been so proud of him. Apparently he really put the whip on them and for a lot less money--if they could even collect their totals! But like everything he does he connected a lot of different things both he and the city were doing back then. Some of this stuff was in his book "The Art of the Deal". It's not that different from his modus operandi on that course in Palm Beach. Apparently he gave the supervisors (or whoever they are in PB County) every single favor they could think of for any cause they might have cared for to get that course permitted and done. Then, of course, when the golf course was done and they came to him to collect all their favors (free outings and stuff for their favorite charities) they got hit with his usual welshing and remarks like; "That's not what I said." A lot of those pols and their causes had charities and things lined up at the golf course and they followed through on them but they had to pay him a lot more than they thought they were going to have to!

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Devil's Advocate:The lengthening of Augusta National is part of the senseless golf technology arms race.We build longer courses only to face still longer, more expensive balls/equipment and the need to repeat the cycle all over again.Ideally, the Augusta National would take a more enlightened position and introduce a competition ball as a more efficient, less expensive way to challenge the modern professional.Unfortunately, they have fallen victim to the "group think " mentality of the golf industry and the fetish for length.That's the length issue.I'm curious, however, about your comments on fairway width and rough.Why is it necessary to reduce fairway width and add rough rather than simply add length?
Tim Weiman

THuckaby2

A Brilliant Victory at Yale
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
GC - GREATY pics!  Thanks again for the day - oh yeah, I played awful, but I had a hell of a lot of fun.  We'll get ya next time!Can I just say I was indeed blown away by Yale?  Jeez... what DOESN'T it have?  Conditions were great by me... and what got me particularly were the HUGE slopes... I thought PGA West Stadium had some deep bunkers/slopes but those are kid's stuff compared to Yale.  I loved the 18th, also... Unique hole indeed but certainly doable... I could go hole by hole and have something to note, that's how the course is... just unique, fun, strategic features on every single hole.  What a fun course... and just darn beautiful also.TH

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
TEE Reconstruction
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Patrick,  please accept my comments in the spirit of friendly observation, and not sarcasm or inappropriately judgemental. But, it reading your posts, it seems all the answers are already there.  (I particularly like TE Paul's short answer and Bill Perlee's response)  I get the sense that the issue is really not about about lazer leveling and budget priorities or construction phazing, etc.  It seems more about a stodgy old club that has become somewhat anal about its course and coveting about their positions on the pecking order within the membership.  IN your first post, I get the sense that your tee sizes and conditions aren't all that far out of whack.  That there may be a few problem tees in size relative to usage in rounds per year.  Heck, get a copy of Hurdzan's book and he has enough general information in chapt 5 "tee to fairway" for size, construction, composition of the rootzone and all that to get one pointed in the right direction.  I personally favor an approach to take all the nattering neighbobing out of the various committee hands, vote a reasonable $ amount, and turn the whole darn thing over to your super!  The $ amount you speak of (3 million) divided equally between irrigation upgrade, course improvements and clubhouse remodelling is hard for me to get my brain around.  Partially due to being a hick midwestern mind set that doesn't grasp that kind of money being spent on remodelling, and partly out of envy (I could build a 27hole Wild Horse comparable course for that amount in Nebraska). And, we wouldn't have any serious ongoing yammering about the lazer level of the tees, yet they would be highly functional and properly maintained.In the end, all that you describe seems to me to be in the bailiwick of your super and the maintenance regime.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Architecture
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Reading these remarks in the various posts makes me want to take a shower  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

aclayman

A Brilliant Victory at Yale
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
TH- May I suggest a more eloquent account of the course, either a hole by hole critic or how you felt as you moved along it. I humbly ask for this, not only to challenge your memory   but archetectural analytical prowess, too.  I have never, and prob. never will, see it with me own peeps so I will value any attempt.thanx,a

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Architecture
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
I am sure most people would enjoy Trump International like I did.  It was a lot of fun to play, and the thrill of meeting "the Donald" (and, no, I didn't call him that) was extra-special.  He took the time to stop by my lunch table when the D.o.G. asked him.The marching orders for a designer/architect here were much different.  Trust me when I say you wouldn't have wanted someone to "work with the land".  It was not a good site.My math may be off, but you'll get the gist.  200 members at $250,000 per brings in $50 Million.  The course construction cost was $40M.  The land was acquired in a workout with the county for dropping a lawsuit.  Trump owns the course and the members are non-equity.He got the members.  Not you and not me, but the list includes Callaway's very own Celine Dion.  He owns the course and netted a good sum.  Doesn't look so stupid now.I'd go back in a heartbeat if ever invited.  Staff includes Bruce Zabriski and Dr. Gary Wiren.  For those with the money, this is a club done right.Because I enjoyed this, I would be curious to see Trump National just for kicks.Analogy - For someone who drives a Taurus or Accord, they may know a Mercedes Sedan is the best car... but it still would be fun to drive around town in a Hummer.Some clubs mirror the personality of their founder and Trump International is DEFINITELY one of them.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
faux links @ RTJ Trail
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
I was curious to see how the Buy.com event would turn out.  Pat Bates has that cool anti-golfer long hair and Chad Campbell is someone I've followed in the scoring pages of Golfweek for a few years because he has won everything.Unfortunately, I threw up on the couch and was banished from the house by my wife.  That course looks AWFUL.  And to top it off... the Pres and CEO of the RTJ Trail was interviewed and boasted how the courses can be stretched to 8000 yards or played at as little as 4600.  "This is necessary because of the distance people are hitting the ball today."  (NOT a direct quote, but a paraphrase that's close enough.)

Patrick_Mucci

TEE Reconstruction
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
RJ,Part of the debate, mindful of dollars was, do you add on tee space, or add the footage redoing the entire tee.Every now and then, clever ideas spring forth from various sources, and the seeking of additional information can't hurt.In my limited experience at clubs, where money is involved, the super doesn't have the ultimate vote. He is an agronomist by education and training, with some construction experience, and that should not be the extent of our information universe.

Patrick_Mucci

Architecture
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
John,I believe the county owns the land and leases it to Trump for a substantial number of years.He did what he wanted to do, mirror Steve Wynn's project in Vegas, with the exception of the membership structure.I enjoyed seeing and playing it as I do twice a year, but I prefer the design of other Florida course for day in and day out play.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Women are driving the ball to far.
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Pat:Using Re/Max finalists for a useful comparison is even less relevant than using the distances a TOUR player hits the ball.I don't understand the point of your post.  People at the World Long Drive finals have and always will hit it the same distance - REALLY far.I have played with a guy who qualified for the finals and he's doing a brief exhibition for us tomorrow.  He is even 2" taller than the Beast and uses drivers up to 50".  It is scary how far SOME people hit the ball.A number of factors are the cause for this - Club, Length of shaft, Ball, Fitness, Length of fairway grass, and (sometimes) conditions.  Trying to pin it on just one variable is hard and NO ONE but the USGA or R&A stands to benefit from doing a scientific study, and for some reason they aren't telling us what they find.Qualifiers for the finals from Haines City were unable to hit it 300 yards and local qualifiers from Mississippi hit it over 400 yards.  I only say this to point out that a number in the absence of some standard is nearly meaningless.  What is elevation at Mesquite, how hard was the fairway, how cold or warm was it, and which direction was the wind blowing.I don't think Women collectively are driving it too far.  I've only played with 2 or three in my life - and this includes LPGA Tour Pros - that I felt hit it far enough.  (Jenny Park and Jean Zedlitz are the only two I can remember that fall into this category.)

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Architecture
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Pat:Glad you concur with my point.  I can't imagine anyone not thinking it is pretty cool to see.

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
I hope you played this course at least once more since we played.  Your recall of the holes is most impressive.  Keep going I want to hear more and your opinions a bit, negative and positive.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Tommy_Naccarato

Architecture
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
I want the both of you to turn in your keys and credit cards and have your resignations on my desk by the end of the day--YOUR FIRED!!!

Tommy_Naccarato

Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Control and containment is exactly the reason. More precisely, Golf Architects thinking that they are smarter then nature. (I fully expect Jeff Brauer to come after me on this one )We all know that too many "Classics" have added all they can. It is now time to add more acreage on new courses. (This is the thinking.) and while you will get the majority of GCA's wanting to do somethign about it. They need to take a stand and decide exactly what they want to do.Look at the mentality of people who are developing golf courses nowadays. They want their courses at 7400+ yards "Championship" length with a par of 72, at all costs. In fact they demend it. Meanwhile, we have a very astute group of designers that don't care about any of that as much as they care about finding the best routing that offers challenging shotmaking as well as deceptive bunkering and shaping. They don't mind building their courses at 6800 +/- yards because they know that par is just a number. Now I'mnot trying to say that these guys wouldn't allow for adding length. I'm sure that is at the top of their minds, but ultimately the finished product is just that.I hate seeing ANGC's name being brought into this because it gives creedence to what they are doing, which is to inspire the ill-informed* (*What a second! According to Joe Logan I'm supposedly one of them!) what golf courses are supposed to look like. Is it any wonder they chose King Fazio to lead them to the promised land? If I wanted a golf course to be the most beautiful/playable park, I would too. But isn't their yearly lovefest in the spring meant to be a friendly invitational that could be shelved anytime that it threatened the sanctity of the club?To me, and pardon me for being so blunt, ANGC is nothing more then a rotting smelly corpse of something that was once great. For those of you out there that need that ritual, as well as the maintenance practice to play the game as well as dictate the rest of it for everybody--you haven't a clue.

Mike_Cirba

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Ok...I'll weigh in although I'd hoped to hear others viewpoints first so as not to influence anyone else's opinion.There is a LOT to like at Applebrook.  It's a contiguous course built on a beautiful, gently rolling plain without a lot of the usual culprits that plague modern design (i.e. woods, wetlands, housing considerations, steep elevation changes, etc.)  A few glades of trees break up the landscape nicely, but the overall look is wide open and sprawling.  Wind is a definite consideration, although we happened to play on what was a relatively mild day.  From an architectural standpoint, Applebrook is chock-full of the type of features we all love.  WIDE fairways, rolling naturally along with just enough contour to make things interesting.  No unnecessary ugly mounding.  Bunkers that look and play like hazards.  Holes that are thoughtful and with a clear attempt to facilitate multiple strategies.  Greens that are maddeningly and multi-breakingly difficult.  Chipping areas, false fronts, steep fall-offs, and ratcheting up of difficulty as one nears the ultimate target, the greens.  What's not to like?However, in my humble opinion, despite all of these excellent attributes, Applebrook falls short of being a great golf course.Why?  A number of reasons.  Architectural features in and of themselves must pass the final test of how they play, and in that respect, Applebrook is too one-dimensional.I will continue below, but don't want to lose this post.

Mike_Cirba

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
I've really tried to think about how well those architectural features are utilized, and also tried to imagine playing the course if I had absolutely no idea who designedit.  Even doing so, I'll draw some comparisons to Inniscrone because it'swhere so many of these features are utilized well. - A good example is the second hole that Tom Paul describes above.  The deep, gaping bunker at the corner really needs to be challenged, else one is left with a blind, uphill/sidehill lie for the approach to a green that sits dangling on a man-made ledge that serves to repel approaches.  Three of us hit very solid drives right into the bunker.  Not one was seriously capable of carrying it, although all of us drive the ball a fair ways when we hit it solid.  Thus, although the option is there, it's for the Matt Wards and Jamie Slonis gang while the rest of us have to take our lumps and play safe.  Move the back tee up 10-15 yards and it becomes a thrilling hole.  As it is, only very long drivers even have the option.  On a second go round, I wouldn't even consider playing towards the bunker. - Applebrook is much more aerially-oriented than Inniscrone.  Almost every approach is best flown all the way to the green, and most holes in fact demand it.  Some of the potentially best uses of merging the existing predominant slopes into the green (i.e. 10, 13) in fact do just the opposite. The bailout areas instead repel balls away from the green, which is certainly a viable architectural move, but simply accentuates the focus on the air game.  In contrast, holes like 1, 6, 9 and others at Inniscrone do just the opposite, and allow for the run up shot using the existing terrain.- On such a windy site, I think accomodation of the ground game should have been a much bigger consideration.- The par threes as a group are very demanding..penal even..and possibly too much so with three of them occupying narrow shelves falling into serious danger.  - The par fives are generally ok, but nothing approaches the brilliance ofsay...15 at Innsicrone, where once again the golfer must use the surrounding terrain to guide the approach.  10 would have been the best possibility for something similar.   - Lots of really good par fours, but the focus on throwing too many thingsinto the pot in terms of interesting green surrounds and the forced aerialgame makes the course too one-dimensional when the intent is to be anythingbut.  For instance, quite a number of holes featured false fronts, steepsurrounds, penal bunkers, chipping areas, considerable slopes, andsignificant internal contours, ALL at ONCE!.  The brilliant subtletyexhibited at Inniscrone is largely missing. - Because of this, and despite the width of the fairways, the course does notplay particularly strategically.  Several fairway bunkers seem well out ofplay and I really had to think about their purpose as anything but eye candy,or perhaps directional aids.- The greens seem to me to be overdone.  Once again, it's important toremember that we are talking about a windy site.  I would have much preferredto see something much more low-profile akin to Garden City, with greens asnatural extensions of the fairways, and the use of slope much more thaninternal contours to create challenge.  Applebrook features both, and makesputting challenging..yes...but perhaps to an unfair degree.  On many putts,large internal curves need to be considered, but then flatten out near thehole.  I'd have rather seen something more lay of the land, but perhapsthat's just personal preference.  - I really am not a fan of the whole overdone complex around 9 & 18 greens, or either hole generally (even without considering the waterfall the owner demanded).  I think it's the kind of showy thing that any of us might criticize somewhere else.  Nine isn't a particularlynoteworthy par three, and I think 18 is just poor in it's present state.  Thegreen configuration just doesn't support the length of the shot, and I think a reverse redan where you could aim left and let the contours direct your ball to the right would have been awesome.  Instead, the left side of the green directs the ball away from the right, and a shot to the right back from that distance will never hold, instead having to utilize the steep backstop that was built behind that pin position, which is sort of goofy,to be honest.  - All that being said, I loved 2,3,4,7,11,12,13,14,15, & 17.  However, I think that Applebrook has so many visually pleasing features as well as considerable architectural interest that it's a shame it doesn't all come together as I kept hoping it would.  It could have been great, but just misses.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bunker placement
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
RJ,You have been on that rant too long. I say this, not because you are not entitled to your opinion, but because I don't believe the conventional wisdom you cite comes from those particular organizations.  In my mind, most, really, I mean most, clubs and courses undertake their renovations without the guidance of a design professional. Most of the filled in fairway bunkers, I believe came from greens chairman, and possibly superintendents over the years, mostly for the reasons TEPaul and others state.The little remodel work I do usually comes AFTER a club gets tired of its greens committee altering the course for its own game - or their wives!  I think I have told the story of the club that alternated greens chairmen every year.  One guy's wife could clear a carry bunker on the seventh and won the ladies club championship.  The other fellows wife couldn't carry it, lost the championship, so he got on the committee and promptly had the bunker removed, whereupon his wife was victoriou.  The next year, the process was reversed!ANGC, USGA, and TV (other initials than ASGCA and GCSAA) had more to do with establishing the current conventional wisdom you speak of, IMHO.I don't think anyone keeps statistics, but I would bet most course alterations are done without an architect, when you consider ALL courses, and not just the high profile ones that do retain architects.  And, even then, there will be the old discussion about how much sway a mid level (not Fazio or Rees, who probably have more sway) architect would have at a club.  There are usually lots of preconcieved ideas, and a club here recently voted down a substantial remodel when their architect told them bluntly that he was the architect, and yes, if the project went forward he WOULD redo one of their signature holes!Lastly, most people really have a resistance to change. That's why it comes so slow! Of course, it now seems to have come fast, as if to our view point, the 50's, 60's and 70's, when "modernization was the buzzword", all happened in a blink.  And just as we view thoughts of that era as outdated and wrong, when the re-classicalization of courses really takes hold, some internet group of the future will say the same about remodels of this era! Although this story comes from one of my new courses last week, I got a call from the project rep. saying "Your tenth hole is different from the others, as it has two tees coming to the fairway from vastly different angles.  Is that DIFFERENT and should we do that?My answer, yes its different, and that is the point!  And since you remembered it, and we're talking about it, it has served it's function quite well already! (If he lets it stand - he is thinking about putting cart storage in the alternate "wasted" fairway)_, it will be a cool hole! Anyway, I noted the fear he had of "doing something different", and that is fairly typical.  Looks like I'v started a rant of my own! Jeff
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

GeoffreyC

Architecture
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
The GCA special forces risked trespassing charges to sneak on Trump National property this afternoon.  There might even be pictures forthcoming.In my humble opinion this golf course MIGHT be a top 25 golf course. (In Westchester County!)  There is mounding all over especially behind greens.  The bunkers are very deep but all are flashed up with fingers so some sand will always be visable.  One apparent par five has a creek splitting the fairway approach to the green into a double fairway.  The right fairway can't be more then 12-15 yards wide and at a bad angle into the green.  It serves no purpose. The greens look rather tame without internal complex features. In summary, Pine Valley, National, Shinnecock Hills (classic) and Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes (modern) will not have much to worry about.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back