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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cart paths and color.......
« on: April 02, 2003, 11:40:12 AM »
I was looking down on Pebble Beach G.C. yesterday and was struck by the blight caused by the cart paths around the course. In bright sunshine they positively glow. Is there somewhere, a course that has mixed its path cement or concrete with a coloring agent, to more harmoniously blend in with its surrounds?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2003, 11:47:14 AM »
Bob,

Many of the desert courses, Arizona specifically have paths more redish in color due to the natural sand used in the mix.

In as much as these tend to blend in with the non-turf areas better, if they are routed through the fairway or rough areas, they stick out regardless ...

The best place for a cart path in desert golf is in the, well, desert, which begs to ask the question, why do you need a concrete path?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2003, 11:54:55 AM »
A number of the better planned courses are doing that today, including Dallas National which was criticized for it on this very site.  I am not sure what the process is, but it does involve blending color via a dye into the concrete.  The result is a softer look (a light earth tone in some cases) which greatly reduces the glare from the reflecting sun.  It is my understanding that this is not a cheap additive, and that it may have some impact on how the concrete cures, thus requiring more work.  In my opinion, if this is eye candy, I am all for it.  

Also, various types of natural materials have been tried, but I haven't heard of anything that has been higly satisfactory in anything but a well draining course built on sand.

    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2003, 01:05:11 PM »
Geoff Shackleford says he is disappointed that Rustic Canyon has not dyed their cart paths as they indicated they would.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2003, 01:20:23 PM »
A more specific reply to Bob's intended question is that I have never seen nor heard of a course that has had GREEN cart paths that would blend with the surrounding turf areas ...

You might think that with the improved quality of "astroturf" that a course might use Astroturf on a bed of packed base rock for cart paths.  By doing so, the club could have a local rule that would forbid a free drop from a cart path ... :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2003, 01:24:16 PM »
Bob -

Also, what a wonderful way to spend a non-playing day, looking down at Pebble Beach ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2003, 02:01:48 PM »
I believe one of the ways thay are darkening cart paths is by actualy letting iron shreds rust over them, after wetting them down and letting them sit.

Bill, You are correct about Rustic's cart paths. they are an eyesore when looking at that bright white concrete. But, some of them are actually getting darker now thanks to runn-off from rain and watering, and they are in fact getting the look, or eventually getting that look Geoff would have been much happier with. It's take a few more years, but once they do darken, hopefully they will blend perfectly!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2003, 02:13:16 PM »
I'm sure the concrete will look much better after it cracks up...great thing about concrete it always cracks and gives that distressed look people love.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2003, 02:28:20 PM »
Sounds like the whining of an asphalt man.  And here I was hoping to get some expert technical information from the Midwest's King of Pavement.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2003, 04:43:15 PM »
This photo is of a synthetic-grass cart path at Bay Hill in Orlando. The curbing is probably there so players know what's real and what's not.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

jg7236

Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2003, 04:47:29 PM »
Bob,

It is true that some golf courses have colored concrete cart paths.  Back in 1999 when I was working on the remodeling job at Southern Hills in Tulsa for the 2001 U.S. Open we redid some cart paths.  The cart paths that we remodeled were laid with colored green concrete to match the existing colored green concrete.  It took a lot of mixing to get the same color green to match the existing cart paths.  I am not talking about about a bright green cart path, it was a light green that blended in well with the surroundings.  By doing this the golf course doesn't look like a race track like some courses do.
I don't know the exact cost for the coloring, but I know it was very expensive.  The company we sub-contracted with was based somewhere out of Texas, and all they do is golf course cart paths.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2003, 04:52:11 PM »
Back in the '60s, Shirley Temple Black had the lawn at her house in Atherton, CA replaced with concrete that was either dyed or painted green.  Doesn't seem to be any reason the courses couldn't do it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2003, 04:59:07 PM »

Quote
This photo is of a synthetic-grass cart path at Bay Hill in Orlando. The curbing is probably there so players know what's real and what's not.  


Jim - Great photo ... I wonder if this will catch on ...

JohnV - Shirley Temple Black lived only a few miles from where I grew up ... knowing where she lived and the size of lawns in Atherton, this "lawn" could have been big enough to park a few Mercedes, Rolls and Bentleys ...  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2003, 07:19:21 PM »
I asked for so much red color ion paths at Phantom Horse (Phoenix) that the entire concrete crew was totally red by the end of the job. Worked well, though. Unfortunately it costs about 30% premium. Most concrete paths will "age" in about a year. Iron, especially, tends to stain the finish.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2003, 07:28:30 PM »
At The New Course at Grand Cypress, the cart paths had a cobblestone texture applied to them to make it more "real". It was a nightmare on the cart riders when they hit the intentional roughed up areas.

All in the name of atmosphere, I guess.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2003, 07:39:41 PM »
The only lawsuit I've been involved with was a result of a cart path. And, 8 out of 10 legal opinions I've been asked to give have been concerning paths.

Yuck! I envy Bandon and its lack of the evil roads.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2003, 02:52:21 PM »
Forrest, Bandon and Pacific Dunes don't have any cart paths, but they DO have those stairs / steps made of railroad ties which never seem to be quite the right horizontal length or vertical height and aren't easy to traverse pulling or pushing one of their big-wheeled carts.  Now wish I had packed instead of pulling, think it would have been easier.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2003, 03:38:11 PM »
Bill,
Steps like that are ridiculous, they are worse than no steps at all. The safest and most comfortabe way to climb/descend is achieved by using a constant run/rise. "Pads" between elevations don't work well because of the various stride lengths of the people who use them. It would work better to incorporate several steps then a landing, if needed, and continue until reaching the desired elevation.
Probably cheaper and possibly more aesthetically pleasing to go with RR ties but less comfortable.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2003, 07:15:34 AM »
Jim Kennedy,

Do you know the cost of the artificial turf you pictured ?

It would seem quite expensive.

Also, what's its shelf life ?

Tommy Naccarato,

Do I sense a BIAS ?    ;D

A homer referee ?     ;D

I  wonder if you would be so kind had Fazio or Rees layed those cart paths ?

Try to remain neutral, like an objective, disinterested third party.

I sense that your friendship may be tainting your views  ;D ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2003, 08:05:48 AM »
Pat,
I don't know the cost and I'll bet you're right, it's probably not cheap. I don't know what differential exists between using it or concrete/asphalt.  It does have a 7 to 15 year life expectancy and is a depreciable expense, if applicable, for the user. More info can be had at this site:  
http://www.tourturf.com/info_request.cfm

There is a real-grass system that is used as an accessory parking lot for a mall in Farmington, Ct. It consists of a grid  of tubing stuck vertically in the ground and in-filled with drainage/ soil mixture. The tubing prevents compaction and allows the plant structures to work pretty much as if there were no traffic on it. I am pretty sure this system isn't cheap either.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2003, 08:58:50 PM »
Mr. Huntley,

I fairly begged the owner of Maderas Golf Club in Poway, CA to tint the cartpaths to more match the surrounding buff colored rocks that litter the surrounding hillsides.

However, he had none of it and so the aforementionted white ribbons were indeed laid down upon the land like so many strips of albino wanderlust.

But, victory was achieved once we began irrigating due to the iron content in the groundwater that was used as the irrigation source.  It has turned the cartpaths into exactly the color of the surrounding boulders.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2003, 10:02:53 AM »
So, Neal, I guess that the owner is a pretty wise man! ;)  Do you remember what the incremental costs were for tinting the cartpaths?  Perhaps nature will also overcome the problems with the par five (specimen tree on right, perched green on the hillside with cart parth running along the drop-off).  From such a difficult, hard to walk tract, a very good, enjoyable course was built (cart paths, and all).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cart paths and color.......
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2003, 01:56:44 PM »
How about clear cart-paths so that we never have to see them? ??? :-[ :P :-*
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

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