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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Glass...........
« on: June 17, 2003, 09:51:42 AM »
In the California State Amateur Championship Qualifier yesterday, only two of the top fourteen scores came out of Spyglass Hill. The players were raving about the good condition and the green speeds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2003, 09:57:04 AM »
Bob - when we did the NCGA rating a few weeks ago, one and all were very impressed with how FIRM the greens were... I sure didn't remember balls bouncing on those greens but they surely did.  Drainage seems to have been really improved also throughout.  I came away thinking previous statements as do the death of the Glass due to horrid conditions were GREATLY exaggerated.   ;)

Of course all good feeling was tempered by the weeping at the death of a formerly unique golf hole, #16.  It's still a decent hole, and it's never going to be easy, but it stands today as a mere shadow of its former terrifying self.

All in all, the Glass remains a damn fine course, very suited to holding competitions such as the State Am going on now.  

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2003, 09:59:53 AM »
Bob- Thinking about it, does that mean they were slow? Otherwise, one would expect a bitchfest if they were truely firm and fast. There is nothing more diabolical than those greens at lightening speeds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2003, 10:02:38 AM »
Adam:

Again, I was there a few weeks ago and at that time, the greens were pretty damn fast... not lightning, but say 9 on stimp... If anything what I would have called them was PERFECT.  Yes, given the contours, any faster and it would have been bitchfest central yesterday.

It did surprise me how firm they were though - I sure don't ever remember those greens being firm EVER, although I'm sure you know better.  It made a tough course even tougher in my mind... but if anything it made it how it "should be", if that makes any sense.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2003, 12:23:42 PM »
I have never shot in the 70's there. I love the Glass and hope to play 18 good holes there one day. I am glad to see some respect on here for one of the better courses around. Hail forever to the 4th.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2003, 12:39:20 PM »
.......and the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th!   :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Leveille

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2003, 12:39:50 PM »
Tom:

As you know, I am playing at Spyglass in a couple of weeks.  Though I played there in the late 70s, I cannot recall the 16th hole.  What was the hole like before and what happened to it to cause its "death"?  I would like to know so that I can visualize the former hole when I am there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2003, 12:49:41 PM »
Mike:

Oh yes, your time of arrival draws nigh...  ;D

The famous/infamous 16th - "Black Dog" - was/is a quite long par 4, measuring 462 from the tips.  It was/is a fairly gentle dogleg right, with huge trees on both sides, ob past the trees on the left.

What has caused it's "death" is that in the process of recontouring it to solve drainage issues, they also removed a huge tree that was located in the inside corner of the dogleg... The tee shot today is still a tough one, but it used to be BRUTAL as that tree blocked anything but a perfect drive.  As you play the course, notice a hump right in the crook of the dogleg, just as it starts to turn right... that's where the tree used to be.

I have no idea as to the inner workings of Spyglass - again I'm sure Adam knows way more about what's what re all this.  I just do know what used to belong in any conversation of the toughest par 4s on earth no longer does, not even close.  Maybe that's a good thing... I don't know... but the hole is also no longer unique so that to me is kinda sad.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2003, 02:21:58 PM »
The interesting elements for me on 16, were the reverse camber at the dogleg where the tree was, causing balls to move left when on the ground, and the approach shot that look like it was from a downhill lie to what look like an uphill green ... when you have a long-iron in your hand, that is not a good combination to face ...


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2003, 02:24:35 PM »
Mike - the current knob where the tree was can give the same reverse camber, if you hit the left side of it.  And the same dowhill lie to a green sloping up for the last 30 yards) (but below you overall) still exists.

It remains a good hole.  It's just not the special hole it once was.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2003, 02:39:11 PM »

Quote
Mike - the current knob where the tree was can give the same reverse camber, if you hit the left side of it.  And the same dowhill lie to a green sloping up for the last 30 yards) (but below you overall) still exists.

It remains a good hole.  It's just not the special hole it once was.

TH

and which Mike were you responding to?  and yes, it looks and plays different without the tree ...

In fact, one could argue that the tree was not a physical obstacle (it was a single narrow Monterey (?) pine) but one that played tricks on the mind ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2003, 02:42:02 PM »
Whoops - too many Mikes here.  I was responding to you, Mr. Benham.  And you are correct - that tree was at least as much of a mental barrier as it was a physical one... to me the hole without it is really missing a lot, one way or the other.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Eric Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2003, 09:30:02 PM »
 Although there was minimal to no disturbance inside the drip-line, the monterey pine at the turn point started declining after the drainage project of 1996.  One could speculate it would not have survived the pitch canker or turpentine beetle anyway.

Regarding the reshaping of the fairway: grades were changed to enhance surface drainage throughout the fairway and rough.  Overall the biggest grade changes were to the left side of the turn point out into the rough (i.e., the slight mound on the left edge of the fairway.

From the approach through the green were where the significant changes took place.  The green area increased by about 50% and the approach linked up with the fairway.  Also, the median elevation of the green was about 6-8 inches lower than before.  If memory serves, the approach was previously short, almost like a false front, being the swale was constantly wet.  

With hindsight, I think the hole would have kept it's teeth if the green was left alone or rebuilt to it's original size.  

In addition, if one were to look back at Spy from 1966 to present, you would see changes throughout it's short history.  Bunkers altered or added, greens reduced in size, tees added or moved, etc.

And if you really want to go deep, look at the routing from 1965 (when it was called The Pines).  The course was much longer (almost 7000 yds.) and there were bunkers in locations much different than the "original."  I once heard the story that RTJ had the first tee where 18 green now sits and the routing was basically reversed from the present routing.
 


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2003, 06:22:53 AM »
Great stuff - thanks, EJ.  My biggest memory was of the tree at the corner, and that's the most obvious change in 16.  I knew the green and approach had been reshaped but didn't remember the details well enough... I get to the Glass about once a year if I'm lucky.

The ole Black Dog did get defanged.  Oh well....

VERY interesting re initial routing, also....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2003, 07:22:10 AM »
I am shocked noone has mentioned the trees that use to be nearer the green. That was Black Dogs most tenacious and magical look. Prior to the 96' project there were two trees that framed the approach. One was to the right of the green and the real eerie looking one was in front of the left bunker. It had spanish moss and in certain lights looked ghostly. The two trees formed a narrow corridor which only a draw could negotiate. Now, the green front is wide open, which would normally allow for a bump and run, if firm, (big if) and not so severely uphill. The pros hated this hole since busting it through the fairway and OB was clearly in their bag. The best drive i've ever seen was in the AT&T by DD to about the 150 yd mark on the left side of the fairway. Tiger was in the rough about ten yards back and to the left from DD's. The current green is diabolical, especially the back left.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2003, 07:23:55 AM »
WHEW!  The expert arrives.  Oh yeah, I remember the trees by the green now... and yes, they are also gone gone gone.  

Thanks, Adam!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2003, 08:42:54 AM »
Having played #16 for the first time a little more than a month ago, I can tell you I didn't miss the tree at the corner of the dogleg or the trees guarding the green. The hole gave me all I wanted as it was, even though I hit my best drive of the day there. It still left me a 3-iron approach to what I felt was a difficult-enough target. My drive carried through the fairway to the edge of the left rough, and I felt damn glad to be there. Now, you want to put a tree on the left side of the green to make my 3-iron approach that much harder? You guys are sadists.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

THuckaby2

Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2003, 08:46:49 AM »
Rick:

I'm no sadist, it's just that some golf courses - and golf holes - are MEANT to be brutal.  This was the most brutal hole on a very brutal golf course.  Now it's not... which to me is sad.  As I say, the hole used to be very unique - now it's just another tough hole in a course full of them.

Make any sense?

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2003, 09:00:17 AM »
Tom --

Sure it makes sense. I like a brutal hole now and then, too. I'm sorry I missed the original -- just not that sorry.

Rick
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

THuckaby2

Re: The Glass...........
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2003, 09:04:27 AM »
Rick - gotcha.  Oh yes, if making a good score is the concern, then yes you are very lucky you missed the original!

Black Dog, RIP.  They oughtta call it Black Poodle now, relatively.   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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