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T_MacWood

The Inverted Bunker
« on: April 07, 2003, 07:23:02 PM »
Walter Travis was fond of the inverted bunker or sandy mound. Are there any of these hazards remaining? Are they  too difficult to maintain; could they be utilized in modern design?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Swanson

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Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2003, 09:10:45 PM »
Tom,
   An interesting "inverted/convex" bunker guards the front right of the green on the 5th hole at Wild Horse.  I'm sure a certain someone has a few photos of that bunker to share. ;)

Brad Swanson
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2003, 09:27:02 PM »
The par 5 ninth at Monterey Peninsula Dunes -- a small dune ridge flows over bottlenecked fairway about 20 yards in front of the green.   The feature is definitely in play for those that go for the green in two.

I thought this was a terrific feature, but I would imagine that absent an ideal location this type of feature would be very difficult to maintain given a little wind.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RT

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2003, 01:54:06 AM »
Tom,
At Oak Tree Menís Club in Edmond, OK the 11th Pete used a large inverted bunker (about 40 feet diameter) on the inside corner of the dog-leg right (440-yard par-4, downhill-uphill).  It was removed about 5 years after opening as the hard Oklahoma rains, and, ubiquitous Okie winds removed the sand from the inverted subsurface.

This left a hard surface for which any ball hit on top would ricochet off into the right deep rough, jail.

Twas an original feature for an Oklahoma golf course, though, back in those days.

RT
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2003, 02:13:20 AM »
It seems to me that gravity is the mortal enemy of the inverted sand "bunker."  However, as for the inverted grass bunker, this is an intriguing feature, as we have discussed before......

That being said, Dave M is right about the 9th at MPCC Dunes being a really neat feature, although I would call it a "waste area" rather than a bunker.  Since I am on a semantic roll these days, how can you call anything convex a "bunker?"  Can you see Kirk Douglas in "Paths of Glory" exhorting his men to "Get into those inverted bunkers, men!  The Germans are coming over the line!"?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2003, 03:50:01 AM »
These features by Travis were mounds covered with a comination of grass and sand - about 50/50 - I assume to prevent erosion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RT

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2003, 04:10:45 AM »
Single "Eragrostis spp." plants, Love Grass, were planted originally on about 4 foot on-centers to help try and reduce the erosion effects of wind and hard rains.  To no avail mother nature got the best of it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Keith Williams

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Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2003, 04:29:01 AM »
Tom,

Are you talking about something similar to what can be found
on the 17th at NGLA?

Keith.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2003, 04:35:19 AM »
There's a perfect example of one on the right side of #9 NGLA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2003, 05:11:39 AM »
Stephen Kay built a cool one on the short par-four 7th hole at Scotland Run in NJ. †It serves to block vision of the green from non-preferred angles on the slight dogleg left.

Here it is from the green looking back;





If memory serves, there are also a few at Garden City...Patrick, am I confused or on target?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Brad Swanson

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Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2003, 07:10:33 AM »
Here's Wild Horse's convex bunker on the 5th hole

Photo courtesy of Dick Daley

Brad Swanson
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

mike_malone

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Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2003, 10:00:53 AM »
Between the 10th and the 18th hole on Scotland Run is a typical  mound separating the holes----except it looks like a "mohawk'.It has sand from the ground level up to 10 or 15 feet than has rough on top.It certainly looks like an inverted bunker to me
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

RJ_Daley

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Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2003, 11:23:44 AM »
Brad, that picture is about the wildest I have seen the grass laced islands within that bunker, and they have varied the trim of the laced rough within the bunker from this wild to quite neatly trimmed, where the sand is the predominant aspect one sees.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Brad Swanson

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Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2003, 12:08:49 PM »
That's too bad, Dick.  I like the wild and wooly look myself. ;)

Brad Swanson
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2003, 04:32:20 PM »
Here are a few examples of the volcano bunkers done by Travis at Hollywood. Of note these are the only examples I have of this style of work. The bulk of his work did follow after the Holywood renovations. I have no examples of sandy mounds anywhere, even the landform. he indicated them on plans, also fescue between landings too, and yet there are no photgrahs of this type of hazard that I have seen

Hollywood 4th, adjusted by Rees Jones office

Hollywood's great 17th, and the best example of the group

this is Pete Dye's sort of versions, 5th at TPC on the right is well above green and in a ridge created by shaping

This is the complex in front of the short 4 12th at PGA Reserve in Florida. The bunkers are well above the fairway

The last is a stretch, because the bunker is 10 feet below that face and below the fairway, but it always looked like a volcano, the 4th at PGA Reserve. Yeah, its a stretch I admit it.


Could they be utilized, of course, anything can. Would they be accepted, now that's another story.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

T_MacWood

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2003, 06:56:59 PM »
Keith
Yes, I would consider the hazard on the 17th at NGLA an inverted bunker.

Ian
Travis evidently really appreciated this feature. There were several of these bunkers built at Hollywood - most prominently on the Heinz 57 12th hole. The fairway off the tee was outlined by a network of these sand mounds - kind of a horseshoe effect. Garden City had a number of them including the old 12th. Kirkwood Links was another course with many of them - Kirkwood is now known as Camden (SC).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2003, 07:09:13 PM »
Tom

Does a photo in "Colt and Co" show one of these in the cross-bunker complex on the 5th at Stoke Poges.  I'm going from memory, perhaps not quite an inverted bunker, but more of a Kop bunker?

It's a very fine hole, probably the best on the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2003, 07:16:13 PM »
All of the pictures are great, but only Mike Cirba's captures or depicts the inverted bunker concept Tom MacWood references.

These bunkers still exist on holes at GCGC, such as # 1,
# 3 and # 10

I can't speak as to why he inserted them, but I can speak to the effect they might have on a golfer.

I believe that they create a deception.
That they make a hole and its features appear more difficult.

Off the tee at # 3 they are clearly visible and perhaps are there for the purpose of intimidation, as they are rather short off the tee, and it's almost impossible for a ball to come to rest on them.

They also exist short of the green on # 3, hiding the land between them and the green along with two DEEP bunkers that are also short of the green.  Again, the chances of a ball coming to rest on them is remote, so their purpose is more visual than playable.

They could be deemed as part of the facade in the fortress/green defenses, more formidable looking than they actually are or play.

They do add a unique texture to the golf course, especially on a golf course with so many invisible, deep pit bunkers.

Perhaps they were intended to fool the golfer relying on the obvious, thinking that once past these obstacles, his difficulties were over.

They aren't much of a maintainance problem, and there are some other similar bunkers which are relatively flat that seem related to them.

There are a few pictures of them in "The Garden City Golf Club"  "A History"  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2003, 07:48:54 PM »
Paul
Yes there is a picture of the 5th, I'm not sure what I'd call those bunkers but they are very impressive.

Pat
I do have the Garden City book with photos of the first pre- and post-Tillinghast. A very interesting use of the hazard.

Herbert Strong the master of the unussual - he had more strange hazards in his repertoire than just about anyone - had a form of the inverted bunker in his bag of tricks.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Wes_Pumphrey

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2003, 08:08:04 PM »
The 4th hole of the 3rd nine at Heather Glen in Myrtle Beach has a raised bunker surrounded by sleepers.  No sand is flashed, so unless you look at the yardage book it really looks more like a mound.  It sits a little back from the green but it dominates the hole because it looks like the flag is just over it.  A really fun hole.

Wes Pumphrey  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Hancock

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Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2003, 08:13:35 PM »
I hate to sound stupid (but it happens all the time), but are we talking inverted bunkers(sand is convex vs. concave?), or are we talking elevated bunkers? Maybe we're blurring the two concepts...and thats ok too, but I was thinking of a dune looking bunker when I try to visualize an inverted bunker.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

DMoriarty

Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2003, 09:44:33 PM »
A few of Monterey No. 9 from Ran's write-up:


And from a distance . . .
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

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Re: The Inverted Bunker
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2003, 07:08:03 AM »

Quote
Here are a few examples of the volcano bunkers done by Travis at Hollywood. Of note these are the only examples I have of this style of work. The bulk of his work did follow after the Holywood renovations. I have no examples of sandy mounds anywhere, even the landform. he indicated them on plans, also fescue between landings too, and yet there are no photgrahs of this type of hazard that I have seen


Ian, this confusion between inverted bunkers and elevated bunkers is precisely what led me to start the other thread "Anti-Push Up Greens...." which seeks to identify the type of bunkers you cite (the 4th at Hollywood a principal example), where the bunkers are above the putting surface.

I cited the 4th at Hollywood and the 16th at NGLA.

a better term (used already on this thread) is a "convex bunker"

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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