[Jeff_Mingay]

While this discussion group is on the topic of rankings, I'll ask, what happened to High Pointe?

When the course opened in 1989, it was heralded as extremely original. Not only because it was grassed 100% fescue, but also because it was one of the first, true minimalist efforts in many years to actually produce an outstanding collection of 'natural' golf holes. Holes like 3, 6, 7, 9, 12, 13, 14, 16 and 17; holes that are still there, yet go unrecognized these days.

Back in the early 1990s, High Pointe was featured on GOLF magazine's ranking of top-100 courses in the USA. (And, I don't buy the argument that it only got 'the nod' because Doak was heavily involved with GOLF.) Supposedly, it was on the verge of cracking the world top-100, too.  

I know the grassing scheme has changed, and turf conditions have reportedely been spotty at best, at times. But still, there are some great holes at High Pointe. And, what a testament it is to the course, that it remains fun to play even when conditions are comparatively poor.

Still, High Pointe doesn't even appear on Golfweek's America's Best Modern list. Does conditioning mean that much to raters?

High Pointe remains one of my favourite places to play.

[David Wigler]

Jeff,

IMO it has nothing to do with conditioning.  High Pointe has not been in GD's top 25 in Michigan for over five years.  It has not been in GW's top 100 for a long time.  It is a quirky course that some people like and some do not.  I have always belived that it was in Golf's rankings as a well deserved nod (But a nod nonetheless) to Tom.  Tom now has many deserving top 100 courses and High Pointe has disappeared from Golf's rankings as well.  I do not believe it is a top 100 and you know I am not someone who needs the grass to be bright green.

[RJ_Daley]

I really think it has too many unpraiseworthy holes to overcome the 8-9 very good ones.  11 and 18 are not good at all in my opinion.  

[Jeff Goldman]

RJ_Daley,

What's no good about the lousy holes at High Pointe?  I've never seen the course, but it has been on my to-do list since I've never seen a course by Tom Doak.  thanks.

Jeff Goldman

[Tom_Doak]

The 18th at High Pointe is a lousy hole for a bad player who won't clear the two forced-carry hurdles.  It's also a lousy hole for someone who hits it 280 yards, because they have to lay up off the tee.  For the five- to ten-handicap, it's a pretty exciting hole, though that doesn't excuse its other weaknesses.

The management has never done anything to impress magazine panelists ... in fact, they're more than likely to have pissed them off, as they have the locals here in Traverse City.  And people who played the course five years ago will never forgive its horrible conditioning, although it was 100% better last year.

I still think High Pointe is one of the 3-4 best courses I've designed.  So does Ran, I think, for what that's worth.  And as my first design, it ought to be scoring highly in the "Tradition" category, don't you think?

[Jeff Goldman]

Thanks, Tom Doak.  It's back on my "must road trip" list for this year.

Jeff Goldman

[Jeff_Mingay]

The tee shot at 18 is strange. No doubt about it. And, I believe Tom's told the story about why the hole ended up to be the way it is on several other occasions.

Nonetheless, as I said to Ran the other night, if you can get your ball into a decent spot off the tee, at that point where the fairway turns 90-degrees left toward the green, the second shot presents some interesting possibilities and makes for exciting golf.

[David Wigler]

Jeff,

I guess I should have asked.  Do you truly believe High Pointe, as it sits today, is one of the best 100 courses in the United States built since 1960?

Tom,

I am guessing that your evaluation of High Pointe as one of your best 3-4 is a slight exaggeration.  I know it must be like asking who is your favorite child, but wouldn't you concur that Stonewall, Lost Dunes, Pacific Dunes and Apache Stronghold are clearly superior and that High Pointe probably sits in the middle of a grouping with Black Forest, Heathlands, Beechtree and Riverfront.  As such, it is probably the 7-8 best of the 13 projects I know of that you have completed.

Out of curiosity, if Jeff only had time to get in a round at one of your courses in Northern Michigan, The Confidential Guide seems to say that you would recommend that he skip High Pointe and go to Black Forest.

[Tom_Doak]

David:

It is hard to choose favorites, but I'm partial to High Pointe because it is still among my most original designs, and my best set of greens.

I don't have the later edition of The Confidential Guide handy, after I downgraded High Pointe because of the conditioning, but I know I rated Black Forest a 6 and I'm pretty sure High Pointe was still higher than that ... I know it wasn't lower.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

You are correct, you rated High Pointe a 7 (My copy is with me at all times  ).  

[RJ_Daley]

Geez Jeff and Tom, I didn't mean to imply that HP was a dog by any stretch of a definition.  I just think that it has too many uninspiring aspects to overcome some of the very excellent qualities to acquire a consensus of high regard to get up in the rankings.  (not that I really give a rip about the rankings in general)  Surely, the real qualities at HP are 90% in the greens contours and surrounds on the front side.  I can't really think of the tee shots off the front side as memorable at all.  Nor the second shot on 3rd to the layup.  It is the scarry backside of that 3rd green that stays in the memory for me.  The redan 4th somehow just doesn't shout out REDAN to me. I don't know why except possibly it isn't subtle enough to be a great redan.  The hidden bunker behind 7th green is fun and reminds me of the one hidden behind 14 at Wild Horse.  The green at 8 is awesome.  But overall, the front side is all about the play into and on the greens, in my opinion.  As for the backside, the tee shots are generally more exciting.  10 is a fine hole to get you re-oriented to a completely different golf course from the front with its chute through the woods and hillocky pine tree covered terrain to an elevated green.  I really didn't like par 3 11th at all.  12-14 is a great stretch of holes from tee to green.  15, 16 and 17 again seem to be a different course, and some of it reminded me of a Langford sort of design, while 18 has a tee shot that isn't particularly demanding in that it is one-dimensional and requires you to hit it just there, and the way the cart path comes around to go by the pond and the lack of real possiblility to do anything more than hit a lay-up to whatever your favorite distance would be for 3rd, just didn't blow my skirt up.

If you are on a tour in search of the development of the works of Tom Doak, I would say you shouldn't miss it.  I wouldn't mind playing it again at all.  But, if I could only play one public course in that region, I'd honestly go to Arcadia Bluffs.  My next trip to that area would definitely include an effort to see Black Forrest.  If I could include the potential of getting on one of the private courses, it is a no brainer to pick Crystal Downs or Kingsley Club over HP.

[Jeff_Mingay]

In my mind, I have no doubt, High Pointe is indeed one of the top-100 golf courses in America built after 1960. No doubt.

[ian]

I really enjoyed High Pointe and it was worth the travel when I went up to see this "new" course. A theory: The 18th doesn't feel right after 17 really great natural holes, and unfortunately it's the last impression. Its still really fun to play and that's all that truly matters anyway.

[David Wigler]

Jeff,

Thank you for your answer.  I checked back through GW.  High Pointe has never been part of GW's top 100.  

Another quick question:  Do you agree with my assessment of Tom's courses

1 Pacific Dunes
2-4 (In no specific order) Lost Dunes, Apache, Stonewall

All 4 worthy of top 100

-GAP-

5-9 (In no specific order) High Pointe, Black Forest, Heathlands, Beechtree, Riverfront

10-12 (In no specific order) Village, Atlantic City, Charlotte

-GAP-

13 Quail Crossing

As it is, Tom's resume with 3 of his 13 courses in GW's rankings, equates to an astounding 23% of his courses achieving that status.  If you agree that HP is not better than any of the ones I have listed above it, then you would be putting 5 of Tom's 13 in the top 100 (38% of his portfolio).

[Paul_Turner]

Any similarities between High Pointe, when it opened, and Beechtree?  I thought the ground game was a real option at Beechtree-with the front to back sloping greens...

PS

Only seen one photo of High Pointe in The CG, it looks a striking hole.  Pure nature.

[Paul Richards]

One idea to figure out how High Pointe stacks up against another course is to do a hole-by-hole match.  An ideal opponent might be Kingsley.  Kingsley is currently ranked #56 on GolfWeek's Modern list.  Both are windy and wide-open front nines followed by a back-nine through the woods.  Anyone care to take a crack at this?

[Joe Hancock]

Paul,

I HEARD that Don Mahaffey played both of those courses in the same day last summer. Maybe he wouldn't mind weighing in.

Joe  

[Steve Lang]

I've played HP annually each year since its opening..  its like getting a steak at Boone's on Long Lake.. its a ritual that keeps giving back.  Sure its been abused by mgt. changes, what course hasn't?  But it holds our attention and like TD's Blackforest, we always get more out of it each year.  

Sure I'd go for the privates, but if they're a passing one time play, who cares.. other than for braggin rights.. the Bear was like that for years.. now look at it.

Sorry that you had disaster at the 11th.. or thought the 18th lacked pizzazz, to me those holes are all about execution at the middle and end of the round, precision and control, are those two things unworthy of examination?  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Joe,
Yeah, you should know I played both in the same day, as you also know my pocket was a little lighter afterwards

I'm not a rater, but I loved High Point and feel it has as good a set of greens as I've seen. However, the front nine at Kingsley really is outstanding and I think High Point would have a tough time matching up. However, if HP was in the same shape as KC then I might feel differently. KC was in perfect condition, firm and fast through the green and firm greens that rewarded a well struck shot and punished one that wasn't hit crisp. HP on the other hand was quite wet and would have played much better had it been a little firmer.

All in all, I've played courses that are in one top 100 or another that I would rate HP above. I think Doak has a knack, call it talent, for designing courses with outstanding greens. HP certainly has as good a set of greens as many, many courses rated better.  

[Jeff_Mingay]

Alright, Paul. I'm not a big fan of the 'Morrissett hole-by-hole comparison', but why not. For the fun it, here goes - High Pointe versus Kingsley, off the top of my head. [Please keep in mind, I'm a big fan of both courses. And just because Mike's a good buddy of mine, I have no bias. Promise.]

#1: KC 1up
#2: KC 2up
#3: HP 1dn
#4: HP/All Square
#5: KC 1up
#6: Halved/KC 1up
#7: HP/All Square
#8: All Square
#9: HP 1up

#10: KC/All Square
#11: KC 1up
#12: KC 2up
#13: Halved/KC 2up
#14: Halved/KC 2up [*Note: 13 and 14 are two of my favourite holes at both courses!]
#15: KC 3up
#16: KC 4up
#17: Halved/KC 4up
#18: KC 5up

Looking for two days of great golfing in the Traverse City area: High Pointe and Kingsley! Toss in nearby Crystal Downs, and why would you want to go anywhere else!

[RJ_Daley]

OK, I'll try the match play and my own version of match play at the finnish.
#1 KC 1up, One of the most interesting starts I've seen.
#2 KC 2up, great short par 3 with exquisite green and surrounds construction.
#3 KC 3up, exciting tee shot angle to most naturally drapped fairways rolling land FW and low profile exciting green which reminds me of 12 Rustic Canyon.  HP 3 is dull until green approach.
#4 KC 4up due same great prairie FW of interesting tee shot, and brawny bold green.  HP as a redan misses the mark
#5 KC 5up due to exciting and demanding par 3 vs HP bland hole.
#6 KC 6up, this is one of weakest on HP front 9, and solid hole at KC.
#7 KC 7up, fun filled par 5 tee to green vs HP with only real thrill at green surprise.
#8 KC 6up.  This is HPs premier green complex on front, although this is another exciting dilemma tee shot to FW with mid-FW bunker complex and fine elevated green and guarding impressive bunker fronting 8KC green. tough call.
#9 halved, KC 6up, While inovative short to medium par 3 at KC with exciting green construction with 90* diverse approaches to impressive green complex, HP offers more golf bang for the buck by virtue of the extra 3rd par 3 at KC and a solid hole at HP to finnish this 9
#10 KC 5 up.  HP introduces a different look to its back 9 with an exciting hole tee to green.  KC rather average hole.
#11 KC 6 up.  While KC is very average par 3, HPs par 3 at 11 is one of my least favorite holes there.
#12 halved, KC 6up.  KC is an excellent bunkerless hole, but HP begins a very strong stretch here with solid hole tee to green.
#13 Halved, KC 6up.  This is a hard call because it is among the best HP has to offer with a wonderful golf hole tee to green, yet KCs short and boldly designed par 4 with one of the really amazing greens I've seen anywhere, is a statement by DeVries that he is a wild and crazy guy.
#14 KC 7up.  This is just too much golf hole at KC for the otherwise good hole at HP too compete.
#15 KC 8up.  Here I have to take a matchplay diversion and try to do the fair thing and compare 15 at HP with 16 at KC as they are both par 3s.  At 16 DeVries gets the Redan right with HP failed to do on the front side at 4, and is a better par 3 than 15 at HP.
#16 HP halved with #15 at KC, KC 8up, as similar holes of strong character tee to green.
#17 KC 9 up, anyway you look at it.  KC 17 better than 16-17 HP or 16-15 HP put together, or head to head with 16 HP or even 18 HP.
#18 KC 10 up, while a I have my doubts about the extreme slope in LZ of 18 at KC, and repititious feel to approach of KC 18 with approach to #1 there, it is still a no brainer to rate it better than 18 HP.

Finally, KC 11 up because it is a masterpiece of golf course maintenance VS the HP directorship that hasn't got it right and notoriously detracts from presenting the course as the archie wishes.

Interestingly as I understand it Mike DeVries was an underling to Doak at HP, but has gone on his own at KC to demonstrate he is a top eschelon GCA.

[Joe Hancock]

Don,

I copped out! I do agree with your overall assessment though. The greens at HP are the strongest part of the course, even when they stimp at 6 feet! On the other hand, are they truely BETTER than the greens complexes at KC? It is almost impossible for me to go apples to apples here, because, as has been stated so many times, the maintenance factor is so extremely opposite at the two courses. The course conditioning at KC is as close to ideal as we can ever hope to play, especially here in Michigan.

I visited High Pointe prior to constructing a Bruce Matthews III course in northern MI. I was interested in the use of fescues in the fairways, and after I saw HP, I could only recommend the use of bentgrass on the BM III project. The KC project has had initial success with the fescues, and if anyone is going to make it work in MI, it would be Dan Lucas, KC's super.

Back to what happened at High Pointe. Course conditioning, as much as we like to dismiss it in terms of architecture, is the component of every golf course that ultimately dictates our opinions and desire to go back and play. For me, I only need to go back to High Pointe when I get reliable information that indicates that the conditioning is at least average for the price that gets charged.

Joe

[Paul Richards]

Jeff and RJ:

If I were to do my hole-by-hole, I'd probably come in closer to RJ than I would to Jeff.

[Tom_Doak]

I had them about even on golf holes, which is saying a lot for my respect for The Kingsley Club.  The maintenance advantage for Kingsley is worth more than one hole at present, though.

I know I'm biased, but anyone who has High Pointe not winning 12, 13, OR 14, does not have my respect as a judge of golf courses.  They're three of the best holes I've ever built, and none of those same holes are among the best at Kingsley.

RJ:  For the record, Mike DeVries didn't work on High Pointe, except for a couple of weeks on the maintenance crew just before the opening.  (Mike did work for me at The Legends and Black Forest.)  Gil Hanse worked there for part of the summer.  All of the greens were built by me; credit for the bunkers would be divided among myself, Tom Mead, Gil, and Ken Anderson.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I agree, Tom. 12, 13 and 14 are a great stretch at High Pointe. Yet, ironically, the same stretch at Kingsley is very good, too.

Note, I havled 13 and 14. And, in retrospect, I should have done the same for the 12s - both great holes.

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